Faith after disappointment:can you start again?

Matt: and welcome to Church for People Who Don't Like Church. What do you do when faith has been bruised by disappointment? In this episode we talk about what happens when church lets you down, prayers feel unanswered or life doesn't turn out the way you'd hoped. We explore whether faith can survive disappointment, what healing can look like and whether it's possible to begin again without pretending the hurt didn't happen. I'm Matt Oldham.

Anthea: I'm Anthea Rutten. Good to see you, ma'am. I'm alright, thank you. how are you?

Matt: Hello, Ranthi Ratnam, how are you? The sun is shining pouring through my window here light through the trees the birds are singing everything's okay and I'm with my favourite podcast co-host What Could Be Better? So I think we should start with something positive this episode. Tell me something you love about church, Antje.

Anthea: Mm. Podcast co-host. Exactly. It's Okay. I love about church. I love singing. I like singing. I've always enjoyed being a singer. I sung in choirs when I was at school and ever since really I've sung in in churches, not in any you know, formal sense, just standing there with everybody else, but I love it and well we call it in church, we call it worship, don't we? But I I I just love I love all that. I love that opportunity just to just to really let rip and make a sound. So yeah.

Matt: you There is something about communal singing, isn't there? Obviously we're in the middle of the World Cup or the start of the World Cup and when you get lots of people together, there is something communally uplifting about singing.

Anthea: I'm not Mm. Absolutely. Well, I mean, as as some of our listeners will know, and you you well know, I'm big Arsenal fans in this in this house. And I particularly love singing at the Emirates Stadium, North London, forever. and when the whole like 55,000 people are singing that together, that's quite a moment. You know, there's something about coming together with others and making a sound and and being on the same whatever it is, focus that. in church is God it mostly and in in obviously el elsewhere things like football, but yeah.

Matt: The only problem I have with singing in Amthea is that I'm really bad and this has been validated over many years mainly by my children if we were singing in the car they would always tell me to shut up so I have like a really solid five note range anything above or below that I'm gonna struggle with so I think I have my limitations but in that five note range I'm really strong

Anthea: Mm-hmm. Mm. You're really strong. So what what do you love about church then? What?

Matt: Well, I do love worship and I think it is, I think I'll just echo your theme. There is something unusual about it and I think it's probably the thing that if people came through the door and saw people just singing or where we are at church, we see some people going to football or with their kids that play hockey or football behind and you see us singing. They're really curious about it and I think it's...

Anthea: Hmm.

Matt: think once you get over that sort of self-consciousness, which I'm not brilliant at doing, and there are moments in worship which are fantastic. So I'm not saying I'm a huge worship fan, I'm often a little bit around the edges of it, mainly because I struggle to sing, but I think when it goes off and it's, sometimes you can just have those special moments in worship that are difficult to describe. Really, really cool. So I do like worship. So I'm going to give you singing.

Anthea: Mm. Mm. Okay, thank you.

Matt: Anyway enough of that enough of that let's get on with the disappointment. It's a tough tough subject this week but I think it's one that that you're absolutely we need to sort of address because I mean you've been in leadership for a long time so this is something you must have you know people come to you with this periodically so when you hear the phrase

Anthea: Mm. Mm.

Matt: disappointment, faith after disappointment and disappointment in faith. What kind of disappointments do you think people are carrying?

Anthea: Gosh, it it's such a big word, disappointment. And I've been sort of thinking about it quite a lot. It's quite nuanced, a nuanced emotion. and I just wanted to tell you a funny story, it which makes sense because I was I was finding it hard to think about it. I was on my dog walk and I was trying to think about, you know, what do we what what what do we mean by disappointment? What is disappointment? What what what How is it linked to faith? And as often, and I'm showing this because I think this might be helpful if you're a listener who gets distracted, but I became completely distracted with another thought, which completely consumed me. And the other thought was, what do blind people do when they've got their guide dog when they need to pick up the dog poo? And I was thinking, what happens? Do they just not pick it up? Do they I was completely interested in this thought to the point when I got home, I looked it up, I Googled it. And apparently it is sorted. guide dogs have a commander trained so well that they usually have a command when when to do their business so that the the the owner can be more in control of it and then they can and then apparently they sort of they know where the dog is and they feel down the back of the dog so they can know where the poo is landing and then and and then anyway we know how we pick up dog poo, but it was I was completely distracted by that. yeah.

Matt: Yeah, that is a tangent I didn't expect us to be going along, to be honest.

Anthea: It it but our brains pop off and I think particularly when it's a difficult subject to think about, it's much easier to get drawn into something completely less relevant. So I did look up a dictionary disappointment disappointment definition of disappointment. So I'll I'll read that out to you. It's it's unhappiness or discouragement that results when your hopes or expectations have not been satisfied. Or someone or something that is not as good as you had hoped or expected. So, and it says it's a complex emotional response that occurs when reality falls short of expectations, which is interesting. And it's a blend of sadness, frustration, unmet desires. And it it it's it's a gap, a sort of cognitive gap between what you've been hoping for and what happened. And I thought that that's interesting because any any cognitive gap will cause what psychologists call dissonance, which what we could just call is uncomfortable feelings. that and it it it says that disappointment is normally a sign that you care really deeply about something, and it it's then the intensity of the feeling then the gap will be d huge depending on what what you're disappointed about. So So

Matt: It's very heavy and I think that's why is the ultimate parental sanction, isn't it? I'm not angry with you, I'm disappointed. That's even heavier than anger. I know we're sort trivialising that a little bit, but disappointment in...

Anthea: Mm-hmm. Mm. Very disappointed with Mm.

Matt: church or people in relating to that is obviously going to be really painful because of the vulnerability around faith. any of those, I guess disappointment in relating to faith is probably going to cut deeper the disappointment because you've not tidied your room.

Anthea: Mm. Mm. Yes. I think so. I I think I think when the minute we've got God involved and a and a bunch of other people, which inevitably there is often there is in faith, then it will cut cut deeper. although I think there are disappointments in life that people of face and no face face that are painful anyway. but yeah. Do you think do you do you think that? Do you think it's more disappointing when both involved or got

Matt: I do, think because, and again, I've spoken to people close to me who've been involved in church blitz for example, and it's so deeply personal because people put so much into...

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: their community, their church, their faith, that if that is split or compromised in some ways, it's so deeply personal. And there's feelings of betrayal, I would imagine, very, very complicated emotions, and often probably difficult to deal with because of the personal nature of those, or even familiar relations, familial relations of those. And there could be smaller disparities

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: disappointments just build up over time when you sort of become a bit disillusioned or disappointed with like a culture or or certain leaders or but then there could be some you know disappointment because You've been hoping praying for something and it doesn't happen. Yeah, and it's it's like that's just sort of a gradual wearing out So I think there's a real sort of broad spectrum of what that disappointment could look and feel like And I think all of them are deeply personal And will have different resonances for different people. So I do think that There's I think probably the word I would say is vulnerability. There's a vulnerability that comes with faith and if that is disappointing

Anthea: Yeah, absolutely. Mm. Mm. I think so. Mm-hmm.

Matt: or if that is taken away or challenged in any way, the reaction is going to be deeply personal as well.

Anthea: Mm. I think so. And I I think you've put that well. I think you described some of it as is is sort of acute, almost traumatic things that happen that cause disappointment, like a church split, or or I would say perhaps a sudden death or things like that. Or you've also described this sort of gr low, kind of low, low grade, grinding down, disappointing that can go on perhaps for many months and years. Perhaps not. de particularly acknowledged, but it's there and it and and it will be having an impact on on faith and relationship with God and and others. Definitely.

Matt: Yeah, and I might just be like, you life just not turning out how you, what you'd hoped for, know, you'd followed this path, you prayed these prayers, know, and just life isn't getting better for you, and that's the grinding disappointment. I think there's also this like the difference between like a personal disappointment. So I feel let down by that person or I feel let down by God or I...

Anthea: Absolutely. Hmm. Yeah.

Matt: myself down in relation to faith. That's like almost a personal and then there's a collective disappointment of I've been let down by them or this group or this church or these leaders.

Anthea: Mm. Mm. Mm, definitely. Yeah.

Matt: So yeah, I we're both agreeing that there's deep personal pain that can be created from disappointment and then a range of areas that disappointment can stem from. And I think some of it also might involve almost a sense of guilt.

Anthea: Mm-hmm.

Matt: if it leads to splitting up of groups or something the other, imagine.

Anthea: Yeah, I think some people can feel guilt at feeling disappointed, perhaps feeling like they shouldn't feel like that. particularly in a church setting. You know, I should be full of faith and hope and trust. And why am I feeling not like that at all? I'm feeling these other things. Must be something wrong with me. therefore I am I'm not good enough. Therefore, I am the the problem, therefore I feel guilty about that because I can't shake the feeling. Or you feel guilty because you were feeling disappointed with the church that you you've loved for years, or the people, or person, a leader perhaps that that you deeply respect, but has disappointed you in some way. And you feel guilty.

Matt: So then in your experience, what happens to a person when a church, leaders, or prayer, or a community lets you down? What's the reactions that people have?

Anthea: I think you know, as we've said earlier, it it's it's individual, it's nuanced. I think it it it can be a a very gr big reaction. It it can it can cause people to leave. I think peop people can say, right, that's it. I'm I'm I'm leaving, I'm going somewhere else, or I'm I'm leaving faith, or I'm taking time out. It could cause people to just sort of really step away from what's caused them the pain. it can cause people just to sort of to lose trust and therefore And I'm trying not to sound pejorative here because it isn't these are these are real feelings and it's okay if you knew if you've lost trust, you've lost trust. But if you if you've been let down by something or someone, it can make you feel wary. And so you maybe will be less engaged than you were, or less appear to be less bothered, but it is not that, it's because you you become less engaged because you've got hurt. so it's subtle. so it it it may be that you you you come across as somebody who sits on the edge or or maybe you just don't go along as much as you used to because it's become difficult. all sorts of different reactions really.

Matt: It's almost like in COVID when people talked about quiet quitting their jobs, you sort of quietly quit, you withdraw, you become more peripheral, you sort of almost fade away as opposed to being a dramatic announcement. You just sort of become a bit more numb, less engaged.

Anthea: Mm. Mm. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Matt: I guess maybe the other extreme could be that if there is real hurt that there is sort of anger and you become anti-anti-church or anti-that church. know, like a reformed person is like the evangelist for the opposite of it. So...

Anthea: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Matt: How do we then respond to those people? It feels like, and we talked about right at the top about sort of looking to try and create healing for that. I guess there needs to be an element of honesty about this and how do you confront those. I would imagine that honesty is difficult because of the personal nature of some of these things. I mean, it might feel difficult to blame or not to blame something for failed prayer. So how do we encourage honesty, have honest conversations about these things when they're deeply personal and sometimes can be quite intangible?

Anthea: I think it it is it is a difficult one. I think I think as as as people within a faith community it it it it's about listening carefully to each other and noticing if you can see disappointment in somebody, you may be able to see it when they can't. And that that might be quite helpful to gently call it out. or or maybe not call it out, that sounds wrong, to to notice it with somebody. I think it think because of what we just talked about, because people f can feel guilty and ashamed of it, it often doesn't get spoken about. So hey, here we are talking about it. And if you're listening, then you know, please come and talk about it if you're disappointed about something. It doesn't mean that that anything's going to change, externally, but internally something might change if you talk about it. Yeah. Lost the question there. Well it I think you know.

Matt: Yeah, I think this comes down back to the personal nature of it as much as if...

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: if church has been something that is so ingrained in your, know, people have been going to church every Sunday for, you know, every week for X number of years. And if that is suddenly questioned or whether you should go to that church, there's also so much deep relationships in it. so that honesty might be quite difficult for people to say, look, I felt this. So creating sort of...

Anthea: Right.

Matt: safe spaces for people to do that. there might even be elements of grief in it if that disappointment is very strong, allowing people to grieve for something that they held before that they maybe don't hold now.

Anthea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's really closely linked with loss, disappointment, and and that could be about an un unanswered prayer or somebody you pray for who died and you hoped that they would live. I th I think one that gets really not very well looked at in in communities and in churches in particular is is that of singleness. we all know people who are single in our church. We don't know what disappointments they carry because they had always hoped to meet someone or perhaps they'd always hoped to have children, but they're now 65 and that that moment's gone and there's sort of this living loss that goes on and on and is is exacerbated by all happy families around them. And I think things like that we can we need to be aware of and acknowledging and noticing around people who've got sort of living loss of things that they wanted and hoped for. and there's no reason. There's no rhyme nor reason why. and God appears not to have heard those prayers. It it's it's terribly hard for people.

Matt: So whilst this has felt quite heavy, we want to look at the positives of this in terms of disappointment potentially being a painful part of a process towards, I guess, spiritual growth. Can you, in terms of that sort of surviving and flourishing after disappointment...

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: let's talk about that for a little bit because I think if you've been confronted or one of the challenges that you've got a disappointment is that you've held a belief and that's changed or other people's beliefs hasn't evolved in the way that you have that can actually be difficult but also can be part of your growth you going in a different direction

Anthea: Yeah, absolutely. I think I think it it can it is definitely a a a moment, isn't it, which could go in either way. And like we said at the beginning, if there's this this sort of gap between what you'd hoped for and what was, which is very uncomfortable. It it is hard to be there. and eventually you will go one direction or the other, you will r resurrect, if you like, to use a Christian word, or or you may completely disappear, deconstruct, dis you know. walk away. I think it absolutely can be a point of growth if it can be acknowledged and if as as churches and communities we can be places like you said, safe places or safe people. People say, look, I'm really disappointed. I'm disappointed with God. I'm disappointed that things didn't happen. Because anyone you can begin to talk about it, can you make some sense of it and then can you you can you know be realistic. I'll give a I'll give a a non a neutral example like I like to. I was on on Sunday I was I was on a boat trip as part of a wedding party and it was going off from Henley on Thames to up towards Reading. except it didn't because it I mean a wonderful boat with a bunch of really lovely people with food and drink and but the the lock was closed just just above Henley, so the boat had to turn round and come back through Henley and go under the bridge. go down towards where we live in Marlowe. And so it's it was sort of going up and down this same stretch of river all all afternoon. And I was disappointed because I've never been on the boat, the other side of Henley. And I was really looking forward to that. I'm like, so I have to reset my expectations and I have to think, well, is this boat trip all about you? Is this is this about what you your need and what you're going to get from it? I thought, no, it's not. And what what is this trip about? It's about being with all these people. A whole load of them are my friends. My friends got married. We're here together celebrating, and actually we're on one of the most beautiful stretches of the River Thames you could imagine. So why are you being disappointed? So I I what I did then was reset my expectation. You know, so my expectation was wasn't quite right, really, which caused the gap. So I reset it. Had a great afternoon, and if I want to go on that other stretch of the river, I I can do that another time. So And something really important about examining the disappointment and being really open and honest about it. Am I disappointed with God? Am I disappointed with people? If I'm disappointed with God, what am I disappointed about? And do I what is my actual expectation of what God can or can't do? And you know, how accurate is that? And what do people around me think about that? it maybe I never voiced what I actually wanted. And now I've become disappointed about something that nobody knew. so how do I work that one through? Because they disappointment can be over or it can be something that we never quite were in touch with in the first place, but we feel terribly let down. But nobody knows that. And in church, because it can be a tendency to be very nice to each other all the time, we're not brilliant at communicating this sort of stuff.

Matt: Yeah, so I think what you're saying is it's important to actually call out your disappointment. You were disappointed you didn't go on the boat to Henley, but then you reset and it's like, how do you then sort of reset your expectations and start again? And again, that's like a good link into, well, how do you reset? How can you restart again post disappointment?

Anthea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Matt: that you've been disappointed but you're still open, you feel bruised, you feel cautious but you're still open and want to get a fresh start. How do you reset in that way?

Anthea: And again, this will be in when we're talking about faith, different of us and those of you listening will have different ways of of doing faith. So it it it's thinking about what what are my practices? what like we've just talked about worship at the beginning. I love to sing. You know, I'll what What has disappointment caused us to dis perhaps withdraw from? What what's going on? You know, what have I sort of moved away from things that have actually nourishing for me? can I move back towards them? Can I be on honest with God? what kind of a God do I believe in? And God is not going to be disappointed with me because I'm disappointed with God. Well, I I believe that, but maybe you believe God will be disappointed with you or cross with you or smite you or or furious or you and and perhaps you may you may need to talk that through with somebody else. It's definitely not the view of God that that we have in our church. if God is love, then God is love. So God is a safe space to go to, but where is your God space? And where can you go? Where is it easiest to go? Or maybe it isn't in a bunch of people in that moment. Maybe it's on a walk, maybe it's on your own. maybe it's singing on your own. I d I don't know. It it it can all be different things for different people. I I would always say move move towards God, not if you can, not away from God.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah, and as you know, I'm not the best theologian in the world, but there is precedent for shouting about your disappointment in God, David and the sign of this.

Anthea: Mm. Mm.

Matt: he's shouting out often and it's not all great stuff. So I think we're not brilliant, are we, as Christians of church, to talk about the things that don't go well. We want to focus on the positives and the nice things. But I think it's OK to lament lamentations and shouting things out that don't go well. And if we don't acknowledge the disappointment, we're probably not going to reset and start again.

Anthea: Absolutely. And and is is about creating spaces where that's that's permissible, where and I think we learnt this during COVID, particularly when life was going horribly wrong. and still is, still is with all the the different conflict situations across the world that we do try and acknowledge and think about and and just notice and and call out to God why, why, why. And and I think the more we can do that, the more we can create lament, the more we can acknowledge sadness and disappointment, the more it it it becomes more possible to to move I won't say beyond that, but to continue moving with it is perhaps a better way of thinking about it. yeah.

Matt: Yeah, yeah definitely. So I mean there's some obvious answers here and again some of the thoughts I've been having as we've been talking about in terms of giving space for disappointment in church but you know what should we as our church and churches in general what should we be doing for people who have been disappointed, wounded or who are slowly rebuilding, what deliberate actions can we take to support those?

Anthea: I think it as leaders it's it is our responsibility to set the space so that it's safe and be careful around that. So that for example, this Sunday in our church we're having a sharing meeting, which means that there's no s formal speaker. It means people can come along and just tell stories. So we're storytelling together. Now it It's very easy to swerve into good news stories the whole time. You know, like the news feed on your on your social media, hey, look at me, I'm having a wonderful time. You know, we don't tend to post the stuff that's really, really, really rubbish, do we? We we just may we don't. And it that can happen on a Sunday morning. It's people just say, this brilliant thing happened and that brilliant thing happening. And and and I'm very careful to say, let's just share some stories. And if it's if it's not so good, that's fine. We need to hear that too. to tell your story of unanswered prayer. or a prayer that you still pray but you're not sure if it will ever be answered. Tell your story of of how disappointed you were when a thing happened. Tell your story of sadness or confusion or frustration or anger. And and tell your story of gratitude and gratefulness because at the same time we don't want to become completely cynical and and unable to feel anything good. Because usually in life there are beautiful things happening as well. So setting the space well as as a community is important. And i i and that that's at all levels of community. So churches typically have smaller groups and people who perhaps meet in ones and twos to talk and walk and pray and it and it it it it's being a good friend, and listening well to each other, being curious, being you know, not going into fix it mode. well, you could do this, you could do that. You know, that that's never gonna help somebody who's trying to wrestle with something. But it but equally it it it it's it might be what what's one small thing I can be grateful for today? and there will always be something.

Matt: Yeah, think so, that's great. And think we could also just encourage people individually or in small groups just to call out their disappointments rather than always call out their great successes. So just to sort of wrap this up because I think that's enough disappointment for one. For someone listening who feels disappointment, what would you want to say to them?

Anthea: Mm. Mm. I would want to say, are you disappointed with our conversation about disappointment? If you are, let us know. And we're always really interested to hear. you know, we it's is it's exciting that so many people are listening to this podcast. And if you've got comments, put them in the comments or email us or find a way of messaging us that we can always pick up on things if we haven't gone where you wanted us to go. But I would say For a start, notice it's disappointment. This is sort of therapist me talking a bit now, but notice it. because sometimes feelings were not so good at knowing what they are. So, actually this is disappointment. Sit with it for a while. If you can sit if you can sit with God with it, do that. If you can't, that's fine too. Maybe at some point you can get back to sitting with God. You know, when was this disappointment? Is it current? Is it a long ago issue. And what were your expectations? Were they valid and accurate? Or was there a mismatch? And be honest with yourself there. Because maybe they were very valid and it's very painful. but maybe, maybe there was a mismatch and there was a miscommunication. And if it's a loss, can you acknowledge and and that can you grieve that loss? Have you grieved it? And loss doesn't have to be of a person, it c it can be of all sorts of things. And if it's a living loss, how can how can we support you? How can we love you well? How can we make space for you just as you are? and you know that may it may change for you, it may not, but how can we help? So that were my those were my thoughts on on that really.

Matt: No, I think that's really, really wise words and as ever, Anthea, it's never a disappointment talking to you. So thank you for your time. Thank you everyone for listening and supporting us and we'll see you again soon with another great topic.

Anthea: Thank you. Fantastic. Thank you, Matt.