What does an inclusive church really mean?

Matt: What does inclusive church actually mean? Beyond the label, beyond the buzzwords, and in real life? Hello and welcome to another episode of Church for People Who Don't Like Church. I'm Matt Oldham.

Anthea: I'm Anthea Ratton.

Matt: And hello Anthea Ratten. I've been away on holiday for a couple of weeks. Have you missed me?

Anthea: Hello, Matt. Yeah. Yeah, we've definitely missed you. And you've come back with a lovely suntan. Have you had a good time?

Matt: Lovely time was in Portugal where it was cooler than it was in London, but that's probably a good thing. And I thought before we start today, just want to shout out to some of our listeners from other countries. Interestingly we have listeners in USA some weird we do well not weird places but far from places Singapore, Japan, Thailand, Hong Kong. So guys, love to hear from you. We'll book if you want to reach out to us or drop

Anthea: Mm hmm. Mm, ew.

Matt: as a note even to say hi or put something in the program notes or or just to say how you can contact us but thanks for listening really appreciate that would love to hear from you

Anthea: Yeah, absolutely. We are really interested to know how you found us. Obviously, this is a new emerging podcast. And so as we say always, if you've got anything that you would really like to hear us be talking about, please also let us know and we'll we can we can have a think around that too. So so yeah.

Matt: Great. Fantastic. So look, I'm back refreshed and round to go. And this week is is a very I guess important and sensitive topic. What does it really mean for a church to be inclusive? So I guess in this episode what we want to explore is why inclusion matters, what it looks like in practice, how can church like be really rooted in Jesus whilst creating real belonging for people who have often felt excluded. I think that's pretty much what we want to cover.

Anthea: Yeah, absolutely.

Matt: Perhaps we should point out that or maybe caveat that these are our views and opinions and we respect that other people might have very different views to ours, and we think that's that's good and that's all part of an ongoing conversation. Cool. Good. So why don't we start with this? I'm gonna ask you this question. When you hear the phrase inclusive church, what do you think people assume that it means?

Anthea: Mm mm. Absolutely. Is that is actually a difficult question to start with because I'm not sure. I know what I think it means and I'm not sure what what people think it means. I think if you are not part of faith community, then I hope you'd think it means everybody's welcome, everybody is invited, everybody is included. If you're part of Christian communities, I'm I I hope that people would think it means that absolutely everyone is included with no caveats, no, no hidden, hidden butts, like we've talked about before, pink ceilings and things. But I'm not sure how clear it is what we mean by inclusive church. I I think it is important therefore to have a bit more of a statement around that. If you say you're inclusive, to actually be a little bit clearer on what you what you mean. I don't know. What do you think, Matt?

Matt: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I I think it's it's really important that people understand what they're signing up to if they're gonna turn up to a church which is new or they're looking for a church. I think if you were to Google Intu Inclusive Church, I think what would be quite clear and prominent would be LGBT y plus. for example, the inclusive church network is very much about churches who like us have made that step in to becoming affirming church. so I think it's important that we

Anthea: Yeah. Mm. Mm.

Matt: are clear about what we mean by that. obviously inclusion should mean more than that as well. It means everybody is included. And but I think that's maybe the contentious issue really, isn't it? If we if we get down to the point, it's the LGBTQ plus part of that, which has been a a thorny topic for for the church and obviously we've experienced that and gone on a journey to to be

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: I think that I think that's absolutely right. And I think that's definitely when we're talking about RCM church, that that's why we're in the inclusive space because of our our heart and passion and desire to include LGBTQ plus folks in all aspects of our church life. And and and maybe we'll talk about that at some other point in the podcasts of how we how we reach that journey. I've got the inclusive church statement here actually. And again, we are we're not yet a member of the inclusive church network in the UK, but we are planning to be. And and this is a statement that we would be signing up to, or we will be signing up to. It says, we believe in inclusive church, a church which celebrates and affirms every person and does not discriminate. We will continue to challenge the church where it continues to discriminate against people on grounds of disability. economic power, ethnicity, gender, gender identity, learning disability, mental health, neurodiversity or sexuality. We believe in a church which welcomes and serves all people in the name of Jesus Christ, which is scripturally faithful, which seeks to proclaim the gospel of rest for each generation, and which in the power of the Holy Spirit allows all people to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Jesus Christ, which I I really love. And there's there's another one here as well from a church who have really inspired us in over the over the water in America called Restore Austin. And it it talks here about God has made us all differently, but he has made us all of us valuable. We believe that the church works best when we embrace and empower the differences around us. Restore, which is this church, is fully inclusive, meaning that no matter your ace, your Sorry, no matter your age, race, gender, socioeconomic status or sexual orientation, you can participate fully in the life of our church family. And I love that that idea about fully participating in the family. No, no discrimination, no, no roadblocks.

Matt: Yeah, that's th they're really great statements. I'm sure we'll steal from those when we grace our own. so why do you think this conversation matters so much like right now? and and why does it matter especially for people who felt excluded, who are cautious or unsure about church?

Anthea: yeah. I th I think it matters for for that that second group of people that the second group you mentioned there, that if you felt excluded or or or cautious or wary about church for any reason, then coming into a church is going to be a difficult, potentially triggering experience and you're going to want to go somewhere that feels really safe and not where it repeats perhaps things that have happened to you in the past. And obviously we're not here to judge other churches, we're just here to talk about us. but I think it's really clear that all all church spaces or all religious spaces actually are very clear about what they mean when they say they're welcoming, for example. And and I think there can be a lot of well, I think there is some ambiguity out there. and we want in in River Malay to be really clear about who who we are and who and who we're not. So I th I think it's it's about making it safe. making it very safe and in do and and and in being safe one needs to be explicit. And I think the other question why now I mean obviously there's our own personal story which we're probably not quite ready to talk about yet because we're sort of still in it. but I I I think and again You c somebody could say, Well, that's rubbish, Anthea, but I I do think there's a there's a there definitely seems to be a move of God, a move of the spirit to to rise up churches who are willing to say we want to be inclusive, we want to include everybody. We have rethought and really wrestled with scripture, we are serious about Jesus, we're serious about God, we're not letting go of of of of our core beliefs, but we absolutely think everybody is included. And I think I think something is getting spearheaded. in this season that that perhaps hasn't hasn't before, perhaps hasn't been able to be. it it it's probably definitely influenced by ch changes in society, changes in in generational attitudes to particularly sexuality, but not just that, around you know things around neurodiversity as well is I think is something that's very much more talked about everywhere and therefore is being talked about in churches too.

Matt: Yeah, I mean I I think from our perspective we we're s really excited about this. We feel it's a really exciting town. And you know, the the inclusive church network is relatively small at the moment, so we sort of feel that we're in a pioneering group in in lots of ways we w you know which is exciting space to be in. But the church is always adapted to to to changes. So I mean maybe thirty years ago this conversation would be about women in leadership, and prior to that there would have been other things that are are very normalized now that would be anathema to the church at that time. So I think maybe we should also acknowledge the the difficulty that that transition has is that it is a difficult transition and it has been a difficult change for us. It's been quite hard work and painful for for people and I think we should need to acknowledge that that this is not something that is that we've done done lightly or glibly and it's not been without w without some sort of scratches and scars and wounds on the way.

Anthea: Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. And I I yeah, I think that's a good a good point to make that but yeah, 30 years ago we would be talking about women in leadership. And 40 years ago, maybe I remember going to when I was a teenager, various friends of mine deciding they they would like like to be involved in church and coming along. I remember my my lovely old Anglican church bringing a friend along. but he you know he had kind of short hair and a tattoo and an earring. And that really wasn't the way to look, you know, and and and you know, he really did not look like anybody else. And I I remember even then in my pro lack of awareness, being very aware that he was getting some looks and wouldn't fit, wouldn't fit. so he he didn't he didn't fit there in the end. But yeah, that wearing an earring, for example, wasn't wasn't approved of that.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Anthea: And people would have been probably been able to quote you by Weber's saying why. But yeah. We've changed a lot as society. And I'm not saying that church should change because of society, but I do think the way we the church sometimes has absorbed society and that's why it's it's being in certain ways.

Matt: We'll we'll come back to that point around sort of culture and and a bit later. But I think that's a really interesting point that you make. I mean, i almost as something as trivial as wearing an earring in church thirty, forty years ago being being do you do you think that people have experienced sort of being tolerated in church rather than genuinely welcomed? A and what do you see as the difference between those two things?

Anthea: Mm-hmm. I I do think that. it I haven't heard stories recently around that, and I haven't heard stories in our church around that. But it doesn't mean they aren't there. It might just mean people aren't talking about them. but yeah, I do think people have been tolerated. I th I think. and Yeah, there it of course there is a difference. that you know we're Christians we're all really nice people, aren't we? So any anybody can walk in the door and we'll be tolerated. But there used to be a phrase, didn't they, years ago, convert and lift. you know, that people would come into church and then become immediately start becoming a little bit more middle class and maybe they're not smoking round the back anymore and they're not doing doing things which are nothing to do with the Christian faith, but are all to do with the sort of class that the majority church are holding.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There is a definite there is a definite sort of norm, isn't there, that like a family norm. And I think maybe we don't get it in our church, but I think the sort of the Christian right that we see a lot of in the sort of the media currently is really sort of making the norm this sort of nuclear family of mum, dad, nice children wearing chinos, all that type of stuff. And that's I think that's sort of been been the model, hasn't it? Which it's just not reality.

Anthea: So yeah. Mm. Mm. Yeah. No, and it's not what what family looks like. it family comes in all shapes and sizes. And you know, my passion is that church reflects that. That church family comes in all shapes and sizes and and and and genders and races and and and colours and you know and all of that and disabilities. And yeah, it it just it and I don't think a family has ever looked like this sort of norm that we can be aspired to.

Matt: But I think if if if the church doesn't reflect that, then it's difficult for people who aren't don't feel in that norm to come and feel comfortable and to come and feel really, really fully welcomed rather than sort of being tolerated. So I think that's a real watch out for us and any church is like are how how are we reflec are how reflective of we of the community that we're in?

Anthea: Absolutely. Mm. I think it I think it is. And and do we unconsciously have a bias around well we're talking about family, aren't we? The sort of 2.4 children and and and you know, a husband and a wife, and you know, that that kind of assumption. do we have an unconscious bias on that? And if we do, how can we make it more conscious and how can we how can we think and talk about that?

Matt: So I remember my yeah

Anthea: Without without judging each other, you know, and without shaming each other, 'cause w of course we get stuff wrong all the time.

Matt: I do when I talk to friends who don't go to church, And I'm my own exp I'll talk about my own experience again, I've spoken about it before. I think they feel that church is a place where people are judged, which is a shame. because often it is true. and I think there is there's always truths in these sort of stereotypes to a certain extent. But I I sort of felt w when I first went to church when Tina dragged me along to church and I've talked about that in a in an earlier episode, that I felt very uncomfortable as a non church person going into a church environment.

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: And you know that is that's me being uncomfortable, and I'm like white male. So if I felt that uncomf that uncomfort from from that just just by not being a church person, if you're coming from a a different space entirely, I would imagine that it would feel incredibly uncomfortable in a lot of churches. And I think our challenge is to break that down and make that comfortable. So inclusion, therefore, should mean everybody doesn't have that.

Anthea: Absolutely, absolutely. And yeah, and I can't we can't speak for people who who aren't like us. and we can't know or experience that discomfort. We can only, you know, as we we were talking about this yesterday, weren't we? It as white privileged people, it it it it is very it's it very easy to be very, very oblivious, and and to be oblivious of that in church too. of of what it might feel like to not fit. Because very seldom do I feel like that. and when I have, it's been in in a very minor, minor ways. Sometimes as a woman, you sometimes feel that. But I'm I'm, you know, I am a white woman. I'm not I'm not a woman of colour. So it it's, you know, we in River Moller we're very aware we live in a very it's a very white middle class area, predominantly. And the church does represent that area, reflects that area. So we're not we're not a mass a particularly diverse space yet. And but we would love to have the opportunity to be more diverse and and the challenges that that would bring us, not not others.

Matt: So I wanna come back to this thing that we talked about about culture and changing culture and I guess the question would be, are we in terms of our commitment to be affirming and our our journey to be in a fully inclusive church, are w are we bending to like a sec secular cultural norm? Or is there a theological basis to being inclusive?

Anthea: I would say no, I don't think we are bending to a a a a secular norm. I I hear those who who who would say we are, and I I I have respect for other Christians who would say that we are, because I have respect for the way they read the scriptures. However, I I would would ask for their respect that we read the scriptures differently and we read the the sort of trajectory of scripture very differently and I I'm not I'm not the theologian in the church so if if anybody listening is interested in this in more detail there's there's stuff around on our website and there's also other people we can draw in to talk about this but I absolutely believe that scripture demonstrates inclusion throughout throughout the sort of story across the Bible. you know at Real Church Marlowe we take scripture we take the Bible very seriously and we have a really high view of it and which means we we're really keen to wrestle and grapple and understand and everything we do we believe is inspired by Jesus you know we worship a god who we believe is reflected in Jesus and yeah I I think I think scripture from you know you can look in into the sort of the Hebrew scriptures and and some of the prophets like Amos or Isaiah who who's who who are talking this story around justice and inclusion of of of the sort of the poor the marginalized the widows in you know it's there from the from the early times and then you you you you then look at the life of Jesus and the the people that he spoke to the stories that he told He you know, he spoke to a Samaritan woman well in the middle of the day, who who was most definitely a marginalized woman. He a woman approached him in the crowd who was bleeding and touched him, and which was absolutely a no-no. He spoke to her, he flipped the tables in the temple, he he he healed people, he he hung out with all sorts of folk who were not seen as being in, if you like, or in the norm. And that was because ge we believe Jesus came to say that the kingdom that he was bringing in was for everybody, not just the the the the the the Israel the nation of Israel well not the nation of Israel as they were then the the people of Israel and he said no no this is going beyond that this is now everybody's included this is what God wants for us. So he he began that work and and then you see it continued on if you look into the into the the writings of Paul and and the Acts of the Apostle and you see all your various stories there, which again is about including everybody in. So Gentiles, which is us, are included in. And and if you look for the word all, you see it dotted across. So I mean that's just a very sort of skating view of through without giving you twenty million references. But yeah, absolutely. I think there's

Matt: Yeah. No, well I mean I I I I think that's a really good good summary. And I I think my you know, famously not a good theologian, but my view when I see and hear like Jesus in the Bible is that he is incompatible with exclusion. So therefore sort of the obvious thing is that he's an inc yeah, he is full of inclusion. Everything that he he's about and everything that he talks about is about inclusion. and I think that's

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: fundamental I've always felt that and that's why for a long time this idea of inclusion has been a real like fundamental barrier to me to jump into church is because it's like well how can how can you a church be based on this guy who is the the epitome of inclusion

Anthea: Mm. Mm.

Matt: when a church which is very humanly made is is creating barriers and exclusion and I that that was a real a real barrier for me to sort of jumping into sort of church for a for a long time. So that's why I am so grateful that to be involved in a church that has gone through that difficult process of of of becoming affirming. and I appreciate with that position is is how can I say it is is is rare and and is becoming you know is again part of this exciting sort of new movement of of thinking around it. so let's let's look at that thing about when you talked about Jesus. How do you how do you see yeah he he is very much in the margins of people around the edges So if you look at the parables, they're almost always talking about people who are not, I guess, the establishment. Do you see that as a reflection of his inclusive nature?

Anthea: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it Jesus was really radical, wasn't he? And he was got constantly busting ideas and stereotypes and religiosity that and and encouraging people to think out of the box to think differently. it it's not easy following the way of Jesus and it isn't necessarily always going to be comfortable if we do. so so absolutely, yeah.

Matt: This it seems like over history we have continuously tried to make this following Jesus less radical and less about looking at the edges and more about creating a sort of a a fixed and and cemented view of of what people should be doing and should look like. When as you say, Jesus was a real radical, he was a rebel, he was a problem for the authorities at the time because he was challenging the norms that we had then subsequently created for ourselves in that sort of religious church. So I think Jesus as Rebel is probably less of a less of a talking point than it should be.

Anthea: Yeah, and ultimately ultimately it got him killed. You know, that that's why he was killed. so so yeah, it it it's it it's serious, isn't it? I I I I mean we could you could talk theologically about the difference between having an idea of a very rules-based God versus a very love-based God. And I think if if you come to God through those two filters, you will have a different attitude to

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: Inclusivity, probably.

Matt: So I think just to sort of add on that theme of rebellion and and I guess the politicization of o of stuff, do you feel how do how should you describe it? What do people get wrong when this idea of inclusion sort of seems to be pictured as well you're just being vague or you're compromising or it's sort of just an anything goes view of church?

Anthea: I I th I think there is that that can sneak in that that you're you're just being woke, you're just being all right on and and trendy, but you you're ignoring scripture, you're ignoring what what what what the Bible says, you know, that that kind of thing. you know, and I can again I can only speak for us here in River Church Molly that you know we we are we're as I've said, we have a very clear view around scripture, that our distinctives are very clear on that. you know, that we love God, we love others, we bring hope. and we're not saying anything goes. you know, the same, the same I don't know how you describe it really without making it sound a bit rulesy, the same bar, the same standards applies for everybody. We're not lowering who we are or or or or what we what we believe in in order for everybody to come in. What we're saying is just come in. and and and believe along with us. You know, and you can put it this way, that the in terms of sort of sexuality, which is a thing that people often talk about when they when we say anything goes, I think that's more what people mean, rather than, it's fine to have a credit card debt, it's fine to do this or that. You know, I don't think they're talking about debt or greed or gluttony. And we what we would say is the same sexual ethic is extended to everybody. not just not just straight cisgendered people. So

Matt: Mm. Yeah. Hm.

Anthea: thank you.

Matt: Yeah. I love what you said, I've written it down because I think we could y we can use that somewhere else, but c just come in and believe with us, I think, is is a great statement. So for that to happen, what how can we sort of look at that in a practical way? What does real belonging actually look like and feel like in the life of the church?

Anthea: yeah, because there there are practical things, aren't aren't there? I I we've talked a little bit about having clear clear messaging, clear labelling. and we're working on that. And it there's also things about clear accessibility, clear just like you know, we meet in a school, so we we set have to set up every week. So we set up little signs all over the place saying this way, come this way. You know, it just Things like that that are just really important. disabled access is really is really key and really important. is there a disabled toilet, for example, that that sort of thing that we think about. There's a whole piece of work that we've we've yet to really begin on around if someone's neurodivergent, how are they going to find coming in? And what what can we do to make that easier for people who find spaces difficult to access because of they are wired differently. So and I I wouldn't say we've got there with that particularly, but we're the fact that we are aware of it and talking about it is is a step towards that, isn't it? little, you know, little things like we I was very excited last week to discover that we've now got oat milk available at our tea and coffee station. Now you might say yeah yeah yeah it's a big step it's a really big step for us and they're in little cartons that are recyclable.

Matt: Yeah. It's a big step for us.

Anthea: So that we're not wasting oat milk every week. And I but it just, if you're if you're lactose intolerant and you come to church and you can't have a nice cup of coffee, then you're not going to feel included. It's it's things like that. A family once joined us because their children came along, and and it was really interesting because I've been having a little bit of a debate with some people the week before about our gluten free biscuits, and there was a bit of harumphing. The family came along, and one of the children was gluten free for whatever reason.

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: And was immediately like, yay, I can have a biscuit. You know, and that was one of the key things that made them come back. And you think, because he felt part of it.

Matt: we know and we know that biscuits are one of the key factors on in good church. Good biscuits are super important, so that's really good. Yeah. No but yeah.

Anthea: Super important, yeah. Biscuits. And as we say, Maria's cakes, which are often gluten free. So i i it it it that can sound really like you're trying to be really trendy, but a actually if you are living your life where you can't eat stuff 'cause you're going to be in pain, if you can walk into a space where you can eat stuff, that is just brilliant, isn't it? People have thought about you before you got there.

Matt: Yeah. I think I think that's really important as well, that we are listening and we're open to feedback and that this isn't all because we won't get everything right. We don't have everything right now. But I think you know, we need to be able to be open and to learn and to make mistakes and try things. I think that's really part of being inclusive about trying new things to to enable accessibility for for for other people. And also I think talking about the the the thorny topics of sexuality still with with our own within our own community because everyone will be on a different part of that journey, not we don't expect everybody to have the same views as me or you and it's fine to have other people to have different views and we but we we shouldn't hide those away or make it feel that people are uncomfortable to express their views because I I think that's creating exclusion

Anthea: Okay.

Matt: So I think just having the openness and the ability to or or or the place where people can feel safe to talk about things that they're uncomfortable about is I think personally I think that's part about being inclusive rather than a totalitarian this is what inclusion means and you must follow this or if not you're you're a bad person or you you don't fit with us. so I th I think that's what I I would feel. inclus so we've talked about clear messaging and I think that's something that we're working on being really, really key. I I think what else what else are the other things that that we should be doing or we will be doing in the future or or churches who want to be inclusive should be doing you know to really put out a message that, as you said before, come in and believe with us.

Anthea: I I think it's about putting that message out. for us who we don't have a building, so we can't put a sign a big sign up on the side of our building, but we we can be clear in our social media and our our messaging and the platforms where we can announce who we are. I think as you've said, it's listening to each other and listening to people within within our community. And taking feedback and and and working it through. I had some feedback not long ago about use of language and something that we'd put out around I was calling people neurodiverse when actually apparently we're all neurodiverse, some people are neurodivergent. And I had got the wording wrong. I didn't I didn't know and I was really grateful to receive some feedback on that. So you know, I may I may well be saying things really wrong and and but I'm I'm you know, if we are doing that, we just want to hear about it. I think language is important, how we talk about things, how we talk about things is from the front as leaders, people who are at the leading stuff is really important and how we think about each other, how we we work to think about everybody who's in the space, not just a majority, a bias. I don't know, what what do you think?

Matt: Yeah, I one hundred percent. I I think also we need to try and reflect it's like the the leaders at the front also should reflect what we believe. So I and again I I I don't want to sort of criticise other places, but I think people who don't go to church often feel that church is a place where old white men stand from the beginning, you know, stand from a pulpit. so our leadership team I think does reflect, you know, it's good mix of gender, but making sure that there's the people who are representing the church are you know are are are diverse. I think that's important as well. I'd just add to to what you're you're saying 'cause we we want to reflect a diversity of opinions and viewpoints as well.

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: So I think I've enjoyed the conversation as ever. I think we've covered quite a lot of ground there. just to sort of wrap it up, if there is anyone listening who has never really felt that church is for them because they feel that they have been excluded, what would you like to say to them?

Anthea: Mm-hmm. I like I I just like to say that you know, if if you are wanting to explore spirituality, Christian spirituality and and we're near enough for you to come and and be part of us, then then you are welcome. And we'd love to hear your story and and we're sorry that church spaces haven't been easy for you. And we're we're very much on our own learning journey around this and and just in a way just beginning to open up some of these questions. But we're yeah, as we say often we're all about questions. We're not about having to have all your ducks in a row before you walk in or take your earring out or not smoke or you know whatever it is. Well we're not allowed to smoke in the school building, but it is a school. But you know, it we are, you know, you are who you are and you you you come as you and anything else is is between you and God.

Matt: I love that you said sorry as well. I think, you know, not personally but for church as a whole, a lot of people have been hurt by lots of churches over a long time. And I I think we need to acknowledge that. And yeah, really sorry that that's happened. and I think I will end this with your thing that you said spontaneously before, which is come in and believe with us. I think that's really cool. Thanks Anthea. We'll speak again soon. And as I said, look, we'll we'll drop something in about how you can contact us. we'd love to hear from you and yeah, have a lovely week.

Anthea: Fantastic. Thank you. Absolutely, you too. Thank you. See you soon. Bye.

Matt: Bye bye.