Bonus Episode: Q&A Special

Matt: Hello and welcome to a bonus episode Q &A special of church for people who don't like church. I'm Matt Oldham.

Anthea: and I'm at Theoretton. Good morning to you.

Matt: Hello Auntie Ratan. Hello Auntie Ratan, how are you?

Anthea: I'm all right, thank you. yeah, and still enjoying this amazing heat wave we're having here in the UK.

Matt: and you're on the verge of your holiday.

Anthea: Yes, I'm about to go with Paul to try and find where the true British summer has gone. I'm going to the west coast

Matt: Wait, when I go and find some rain.

Anthea: of Scotland where I'm quite sure it may not be quite as hot, but it will be beautiful.

Matt: Good. Wonderful. Have a wonderful time. I'm sure you will. So we had this brilliant brainwave of trying to break up our episodes a little bit with a bonus episode and we thought we'd ask people to give us questions and to be honest I thought we might have two or three questions and I thought there would be things like what's your favourite song? What do like for breakfast? But no, think we underestimated

Anthea: You

Matt: our listenership and we had lots of questions in which is great and there are biggies in there and like deep

Anthea: Mmm.

Matt: theological questions so maybe they sent them to the wrong podcast.

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: So how should we go about this? What do you think?

Anthea: Well yeah, yeah you're absolutely right, we are deeply flattered that you think we have the theological wherewithal to answer these questions, but we will have a good go and I was just interested that they fall into three kind of buckets, three themes if you like, which I think are themes that always occur to people when talking about God, so we've got nature of God, we've got questions around relationship with God, and then we've got questions around the Bible. And I think it falls into those three areas,

Matt: Okay.

Anthea: which is very common. And the questions are, yeah, they're brilliant. Thank you, everybody, very much. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, but I think I should have it. I don't think anybody thought that I had the theological chops to be able to do this. I think they were probably aimed at you. Yeah,

Anthea: Yeah, well, we don't know.

Matt: so, okay, well, let's start those questions in bucket number one, the nature of God, nature of God. So what were the questions

Anthea: Okay, nature of God.

Matt: that we had?

Anthea: So here we've got, where does God come from? Does God have a smite button, i.e. does behaviour matter? Why does God allow bad things to happen? And does Jesus love us when we're relaxing on the sofa too, asking for a friend?

Matt: Okay, asking for a friend, very very good. Well know the answer to the

Anthea: I love that one.

Matt: first one, I know the answer. So where does God come from? Preston, or at least the Greater Lancashire area. I know this is a fact because my Nana always used to say that Lancashire is God's own county. So that's definitely true.

Anthea: Okay, well I don't know if it is true because I think God comes from South Lincolnshire, also God's own county so... yeah, yep.

Matt: Well, I think we could have a big debate about that, but if I'm truly honest about that, that is above my theological pay grade. So I think we should maybe move on to the next one.

Anthea: I think, yeah, we get into sort of really into philosophy there as well, don't we, as well as theology, where does God come from? know, did God come from anywhere? Was God always? Are we all in God? Is God somewhere outside of this realm? Many theologians and many philosophers have debated these over years and years and years and I don't have an answer to that.

Matt: Yeah, okay. Well, good, It's good that the answer to our first question is that we don't know.

Anthea: Yeah, so yeah, the next one though. Yeah, does God have a smite button? We don't know. No idea.

Matt: Fantastic, showing our fallibility there.

Anthea: Yeah. But does God have a smite button,

Matt: Next question.

Anthea: Matt? Yeah.

Matt: Well, it's interesting because I know that this is referring to two things. One of them is those, you know the far side cartoons that used to be on every single birthday card. It used to be a Larson cartoon with

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: normally cows or something, but there was one with... image of God with his finger on his button and I think a

Anthea: computer yes

Matt: grand piano hovering above some poor person walking underneath it and with the button saying smite on it. So that's probably where it came from. And also I know that there was a chapter in Steve Chalk's book The Lost Message of Jesus which covers that. I I have a unsurprisingly very simple perspective on this as ever that I don't believe that we are guinea pigs on remote control running round. being controlled by some omnipresent being because it would be awful and it would be very impractical for God because there's lots of people and lots of potential smiting. But I think this comes down to the fact that we have a loving God and a loving God has given us free will knowing that we're going to mess that up as well. But I think that's my simplistic view on that is no, there isn't a smite button, we have free will.

Anthea: Absolutely, I absolutely agree with that. No, God doesn't have a smite button because God doesn't have any buttons because God doesn't have any hands because God is not. God is not a person. But I know that's not what the question was asking us. No, God doesn't have a smite button. If we believe that God is a God of love, then love can't smite in that way. And if my friend or my child is doing something that I'm not happy about, do I stop loving them in those moments? No. And also, it's important not to answer for more, more for God that things the feelings that we have aren't necessarily feelings that God has even though we are made in God's image. So no, no, God does not have a smite button. And it does link, I think, into this next question of why does God allow bad things to happen? Because

Matt: Yeah, but before we do that though, before we jump into that one, I seem to remember one of our esteemed colleagues talking about the god of the smite button some 10 years ago. So maybe with the magic of podcast editing, we can phone a friend and see what his views are. So let's cut to that.

Anthea: Great, great idea. Phone a friend number one.

Matt: Okay, so thanks Andy Reed for that. Don't know what he said because he's not recorded it. Hopefully it isn't contradictory to what we said. But anyway, let's hope that worked. Good stuff, next question.

Anthea: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, why does God allow bad things to happen?

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: Well, there's a clue in that actual question in the word allow, because allow makes an assumption, again, we're going back to that all powerful, all controlling God who can... allow things to happen or allow things not to happen and I think one has to ask a question what can God do and what can't God do and again I many theologians debate this question and I would refer people to the work of a more modern theologian called Thomas J. Ord who wrote a very interesting and provoking book called God Can't and if you're a reader start there but

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: if yeah why doesn't God allow why does God allow bad things to happen well if God could allow things to happen if God was in control then why is all this stuff happening in the world and we see around us both personally and and across our country many countries in the world and you know, why is all that happening? What kind of a God is that that allows all this horrible stuff to happen all the time? Yeah.

Matt: you So I used to have a work colleague who knew as a Christian and we used to, I guess it was banter and he always used to say about, you're a Christian and you're God killing all those babies and all this stuff and stuff. And it was half ingest and he was half and half not, but he wasn't buying at all the free will argument. it goes very much back to the smiting, the smiting. But I think some people have been brought up or hold this image of God more like, I don't know, Gandalf, rather than Gandalf smiting or not smiting. And I think that's, hard to dispel from people and it's hard to get people to think more broadly about what free will has given us and our responsibility within that as opposed to just absconding or giving a responsibility to a god for everything good or bad that can happen in the world.

Anthea: Absolutely and again I think how and this also will link into when we talk about the Bible but I think how you've been taught to view God very much influences these. I think it's very easy to grow up in traditions where you know people do believe God can do anything and we just pray hard or have more faith or something yada yada yada then God will do whatever it is that we want God to do and therein some people manage to live that way very happily but there can be an awful lot of disappointment and denial as well that can sit in that space so yes if we follow a God who we believe has set us very clear rules and standards and morals and then perhaps then perhaps we might think that God allows bad things to happen, perhaps we do think that about God, but I think that gets caught into ancient ideas of God, gods. I haven't been to see the Odyssey yet, but I am really looking forward to seeing it, but those ideas which are quite primitive and ancient around gods controlling things and having to appease the gods and that come in from other religious spaces, which we don't need as Christians because we have a God of love, we have Jesus.

Matt: Yeah,

Anthea: Thank

Matt: yeah, and it sort of really gives a very judgmental view of the world that something bad's happened to you or to that person, therefore they can't be good enough or faithful enough or haven't prayed enough, which is, you know, in my view, nonsense. Anyway, maybe you should get onto a lighter one, like does God love us when we're on the sofa?

Anthea: Yeah, yeah, yeah. well, I mean, does God love us when we're relaxing on the sofa too?

Matt: I hope so.

Anthea: Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, I mean, again, that link, I think that does link again to this idea of a very judgy God who's sort of keeping an eye on us at all times. And at all times we need to be sort of somehow as good Christians on our best behaviour, whatever that is. It's like, God loves us. God loves us. God loves us. And it stop.

Matt: regardless of what we're doing on the sofa.

Anthea: Exactly, exactly. And going back to that question, does behaviour matter? Yes, I absolutely believe behaviour does matter. And no, I don't think God's saying anything goes. yeah, God loves us. God may not love that or it may not be God's best or flourishing space for us if we are, you know, don't know, plotting a... bank heist on our computer while sitting on the sofa. don't know, you know, yes, there are things that are about us flourishing and growing and transforming and becoming more like God has created us to be. So behaviour does matter.

Matt: you're giving a clear message there so relaxing on the sofa good planning bank heist on the sofa bad

Anthea: That.

Matt: That's clear theology. Let's

Anthea: You

Matt: move on to bucket number two, which was relationship with God. There's question in there.

Anthea: Yeah, yeah I love this question. It's a really good question. Why do some people hear God speak to them and not other people and not others? That's a heartfelt question. What do you think?

Matt: Yeah. Well, I recognise that question, if you like, the thought behind that question, because I think sometimes you can see other people who look more filled with the Spirit or look more holy or look more... you know, in tune with God than you feel either at that moment or ever. And I think that can be discouraging. or some sort of deep mystery, what have they got that I don't have? And I don't think that is healthy because I think there's

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: a spectrum in that as well because I think some of that is a little bit performative. There's also bits of manipulation that can be in that and some of it is we just connect differently. Everybody is slightly different about how we can connect with God and I think if we... try to connect and hear from God just how other people hear from God. think we'll probably miss it. We're all different. We're all created differently. We have different ways of connecting. It could just be feelings of connection walking in a forest as opposed to a clear voice in the darkness. I don't know. What do you think?

Anthea: I kind of think that too. Again, I think this would be an interesting one to do more of a whole podcast on. What do we mean by hearing God? It's very, very unusual and there are very, very few accounts of people hearing an audible voice. Again, because God doesn't have a voice. yes, absolutely. God communicates with us into who we are. not who somebody else is, which I think is what you just said. So who I am, I'm incredibly emotionally wired. I'm quite visual, I'm quite creative, I love music, I love nature. You know, I love novels. So if God's going to talk to me, that's probably the place to find me. As if you're

Matt: you

Anthea: not like me at all, then you reading a novel is not going to be helped. God's not going to talk to you there. But if you're a very logical,

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: thoughtful person and you're having a big think about something, I think God will find you there. You know, so God knows each of us in our uniqueness and will speak to us. But I think sometimes we think God isn't speaking because we're looking for God in the wrong spot. But equally, I think there are times in our Christian walk when For whatever reason, feels very absent. And I don't think God does absent God's self, but something goes on. And this, in the mystical tradition, is called the dark night of the soul. Some

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: people can have long periods of time where they just can't feel God or know God. and there's quite a lot of thinking and writing around that, around God in the absence, and what that means and exploring that. That's quite mystical, but it interests me and yeah. All I could say is if you've got good people around you, if you are struggling and not hearing God and you're in a period where you haven't heard God for a long time and you want to, maybe it's helpful to get some sort of directions and spiritual directions and spiritual friendship where you can talk about it and think about it. Our small group that we meet in our church wrestles with these questions all the time and it is so encouraging to do that. So yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Good.

Anthea: Again, not a bit of a nebulous answer, it's

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: an answer about ongoing relationship with God. So, yeah.

Matt: Good, okay, well then moving on to bucket three, which was the Bible.

Anthea: Yeah. Listen, I'm going to read out these questions and these are big questions and we are already planning a couple of podcasts thinking around the Bible so we will skim answers on these today but we will return. So somebody else has answered, what is asked in view of everything we've learned recently about how to read better, better read the Bible. Why is the Bible hard to read and understand? And then somebody has kind of piggybacked onto that and said, we know all about patriarchy and the damage these views can have on individuals and society at large. What is the view on the Bible being written only by men and the potential then biases coming from it? Massive questions, very good questions.

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: How can the story of creation from the Bible be real when you look at the evidence of evolution? Linked to that, how can the flood and Noah's Ark be real when there are so many species on earth? Is it just a lovely story? And then at the end, some sort of more archaeological questions, if you like. Do we think the Ark survived? I think that means Noah's Ark. And is there any evidence about the Ark of the Covenant still existing?

Matt: Well that was clearly explained in Indiana Jones, the first one, so I think that one's covered. The first

Anthea: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Matt: two questions that you listed there I think are fascinating and I think we should spend more time on those because again, I couldn't answer them at all but I'm really interested in. subjects as well and I think

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: it's something one of the reasons that we did this podcast was to sort of wrestle with this stuff stuff that we didn't really necessarily know answers for but are interested in the questions so I think they're really good questions that we could we take on I think the Noah's Ark story I have to be honest I can't really get my head around what that is about why is that in the Bible but maybe we could do another phone a friend here because I know someone who might be able to give us a good perspective on that. So let's see with the magic of podcast editing, can we get another phone to friend me?

Anthea: Yeah, let's phone Paul Raton, see what he has to say.

Matt: Paul, us! Fantastic. Thank you, Paul.

Anthea: Okay, yeah, I mean just

Matt: you.

Anthea: to say a little bit about the Bible is that it, you here at River Church Marla we take a very high view of scripture, we take the Bible very seriously and we love to wrestle with it and we don't necessarily read it literally as if everything is historically true, however there's huge truth. And I'm aware that some people do read stories like the creation story and Noah's Ark as literal. And that is fine. I don't, but I find huge truth and wisdom in them anyway. again, what's opened my mind is, and I only heard this in recent years, maybe in the last 10 years, somebody said to me, you do know that there are other creation stories? I'm like, no, I thought we had the creation story, our story. No, there are other older creation stories. These are seen as primitive stuff, writings. There are other stories that were... talked about how the earth was created, which is groups of people trying to make sense of how the earth was created. There's big differences in the stories and that's where, you know, the creation story in the Hebrew scriptures is very different. is much more full of a God who's loving, who's interested in creation, who is not smiting. And these other stories are similar but different. that then makes you think, well, these are myths, these are ways of making sense. They're not true for me. But I can appreciate where others stand on that. But the minute you stop reading the Bible flat on the page and you start thinking this is a library of books, this is different genres. We've got poetry, we've got story, we've got parable, we've got accounts, we've got letters, there's so much going on, you can't read it all the same anyway. And you do have to know stuff about it in order to approach it. Like if I pick up a poem that somebody's written and I read it as if it's a true story, I've got the wrong idea. about that poem, haven't I? So it's okay to be literary when we read the Bible.

Matt: Yeah, and I think that's a good way to interpret that question. And as you said, I think we probably need to take a deeper dive with these. So we'll plan out some of those questions and topics and have podcast episodes talking of which just one last question, and this is actually a me to you question, and

Anthea: Mm-hmm.

Matt: where are we going with the podcast? Where are we now? What's next?

Anthea: So, yeah, I mean, we've obviously really enjoyed doing this. We're loving the fact that we've got listeners from all over the place, all over the world. We're loving the support locally and we encourage people just to share this podcast with people that you think might be interested in listening. And we're keen to get some different voices onto the show. And as such, we have one guest lined up, Matt Hyam. who is a friend of Revo Church Marlow and he currently works for MEDE, an international belief organisation and I don't know what more to say about him really, maybe he can introduce himself a bit when he comes along, he's also a theologian and previously led churches in other parts of his life so he's going to come on and talk to us around stuff around the Bible.

Matt: forward to that and

Anthea: And yeah.

Matt: yeah just want to shout out to everyone who supported us so far really appreciate it really appreciate the kind messages please do you know keep feeding back we'll do another Q &A in the future as well because this this has been really fun and interesting but we're gonna wrap it up for today at that point enjoy the sunshine enjoy your holiday Anthea very well deserved

Anthea: Thank you. Thank you.

Matt: And yeah, we'll be back, our next episode will be out the second week of August with Matt Hyam. And until then, have a lovely summertime.

Anthea: Goodbye. Thank you all for listening.

Matt: Bye now.