The Story So Far: Church, Doubt, Belonging… and What Comes Next

Matt: Hello and welcome to a special mini episode of Church for People Who Don't Like Church. Over the last few weeks, Anthony and I have been having a series of conversations about church, faith, disappointment, belonging. and I guess really what it means to try and follow Jesus, honestly. And the responses have been really encouraging, so thank you very, very much. It really means a lot to us that people have commented and said nice things. So before our next full episode, and because there's been a bit of a gap between the last episode and this one because of holidays and stuff, I thought I'd take a few minutes to look back at where we've got to, why we're having these conversations in the first place, and give you a glimpse about where heading next because after all you know this is a podcast about church for people who don't like church and I think that phrase has become more than just a straight line it's really become the starting point for conversations and the conversations that we've been having. Why is that? Well to be honest a lot of people don't like church if they did there will be more people in churches up and down the country and the reality is that a lot of churches are struggling to connect with people particularly I guess younger generations and maybe part of the reason for that is that while the world has changed enormously the basic experience of church can often feel very similar to what previous generations have experienced but I think there's also something deeper than just format going on too. Church hasn't always been a place where people are free to grapple honestly with the big questions that they're supposed to be talking about. And worse than that, many people are felt excluded from church entirely simply for being who they are. That's one of the reasons that we had the idea for this podcast. We wanted to create a space where we could ask questions, where it was okay to understand, not to understand anything, which is important because I'm right here and I don't understand much, where we could disagree, be okay with that, have different opinions and have conversations about faith in ways that... sort of non-judgmental and certainly non-religious. How are we doing? Well you tell us. We're still learning and trying to get better. I hope you're feeling that we're growing into it little bit. And Anthony and I are certainly enjoying our special pod time together. And look we've even bought ourselves a little special podcast microphone so we can pretend to be real podcasters. Although, to be honest, that was just mainly in response to the fact that we got some feedback saying that our sound was patchy. So I hope we do now a little bit better as well. where did we begin and where are we going? Well, we began with asking a pretty simple question. Why do so many people love Jesus but dislike church? Because that seems to be the experience of a lot of people. They might still be interested in Jesus. They might be spiritual. curious they might even miss something about faith but church can be complicated. Maybe they found it irrelevant, boring, over religious, maybe judgmental, maybe they had a bad experience or maybe they sort of never really felt that they fitted in and I think I've probably been one or more of those at every single part of my journey. And I think one of the things that came out of that first conversation was a recognition that sometimes people have very understandable reasons for feeling cautious about church. That doesn't necessarily mean they've rejected God or Jesus. And that really led us to the next question we asked, which is, can you belong before you believe? Do you arrive at church already having to know what you think or do you need to have all your theology sorted out? Do you need to know that the language, the songs be very certain about God? before there's actually a place for you. And our simple answer, and this is a spoiler alert if you've not listened to that episode, was quite simply, no. We are really keen to create a church where people can explore, where people can ask questions, where you can belong while still figuring things out. And naturally that took us to the subject of doubt. Because once you give people permission not to have everything sorted out, you have to make room for questions. So we asked, is doubt a problem or actually part of faith? I actually think that was a really important question, an important conversation, because many of us probably picked up the idea somewhere along the way that being a Christian means being certain, that strong faith means never really questioning anything, but actually doubt can sometimes be the result of taking your faith seriously. If God matters, if truth matters, if how we live matters, then surely asking difficult questions isn't something we should be frightened of. Yeah, so I thought that was really good. And then from, although I say ourselves, myself. From doubt, we moved to disappointment. We asked what happens when faith hasn't worked out the way you'd expected. So what happens when church lets you down or Christians let you down or Christian friends let you down or when you've... prayed for something and nothing happened or life simply hasn't turned out the way you'd hoped for. Can you start again? And I think one of things that we wanted to say in that episode was that starting again doesn't mean pretending nothing bad happened. That you have to raise that disappointment or that you have to start again. completely naively. Sometimes starting again is much smaller than that. It can simply just mean staying open. And then most recently we asked what does inclusive church actually mean? Because the word inclusive can easily become one of those words churches put on websites, but it doesn't really sort of mean what it says. or how people are treated and then it doesn't really mean very much at all. For us inclusion has to mean something deeper than simply saying everyone is welcome. It has to mean genuine belonging and it has to shape the culture of the community not just the language that we use. It has to mean making space for people who have historically found themselves pushed towards the edge of church and I think we should acknowledge that today particularly within parts of the evangelical church that has a very specific for LGBTQ plus community. And I suppose looking back over those conversations, there's one thing that keeps coming up for me, which is. People seem to be looking for a faith that can cope with real life. A faith that can cope with questions, a faith that can cope with difference and disappointment, a faith that doesn't require us to pretend. And maybe church doesn't always have to just be there to provide easier answers. Maybe it needs sometimes to be a safer place for deep questions. And that brings me very neatly onto our next conversation because underneath a lot of what we've been talking about sits one very big question what to do with the Bible for millions of people the Bible has been a source of extraordinary hope, wisdom, comfort and encounter with God but we also have to be honest the Bible has sometimes been used to hurt people, verses have been used to exclude people, to condemn people or to control people people they don't belong. I'm sure all of us have experienced someone throwing out an out-of-context Bible verse in a conversation like a hand grenade. So what do do with that? Can we still take the Bible seriously without using it as a weapon? How can two Christians read exactly the same Bible verse and arrive at very different conclusions? And how do we deal well with the person on the other side of that, person who reaches that opposite conclusion to us, that last one, I mean, that's something I really wrestle with and I definitely need to work on. What does mean when Christianity, when Christians say that they should read the Bible through Jesus? So for that conversation, Anthony and I are going to be joined by Matt Hyam. Like in our Q &A episode, we are going to phone a friend. Matt has spent nearly three decades leading a church, he's studied theology extensively, he's written a number of books about exploring faith, discipleship, and some of the questions Christians wrestle with. He's also a friend of RCM, and many of you know him. Thank I think he's going to bring a very different perspective to the conversation. We're going to talk to him about how to interpret scripture, ⁓ whether any of simply read what the Bible says or whether we're all interpreting in some ways and we're going to ask difficult questions about the difficult passages. We're going to talk about Jesus and we're going to ask whether scripture can still become good news for people who've experienced it very, very differently. So I'm really looking forward to that conversation. Looking forward to having Anthea back because she will ask better questions and give better answers than I will. So it's going to be great to get the band back together. But most importantly, I just wanted to say a big thank you from Anthea and myself for being part of this podcast so far. Whether you've listened from the beginning or you've just discovered us or someone sent you an episode because it might connect with you, we're really glad you're here. wherever you're coming from, whether committed Christian, spiritually curious, doubtful, disappointed, unsure of what you believe or just interested in the conversation, you're welcome. And please do send us your questions and comments. We really enjoyed doing the Q &A episode We've had a load more questions a really good one since then so we'll definitely do another one of those in a few weeks time So send your send your questions to Anthea not me Anthea at rcm.church So that's Anthea at rcm.church Our next episode is coming up very soon What to do with the Bible when it's been used to hurt people I think that's going to be a great conversation. So thanks for listening and speak to you soon.