Can you actually "experience" God?

Matt: Can we really experience God? Can we speak to, hear from, feel touched by God in a tangible way? And why can some people sort seem to tap into a physical God whilst others just can't? Hello and welcome to another episode of Church for People Who Don't Like Church. I'm Matt Oldham.

Anthea: And I'm Anthia Ratton. Hello.

Matt: Hello, Anthe Rasum, how are you?

Anthea: Thank you. Yeah, very good.

Matt: Very good. We were just saying that it feels very much back to school now. None of this summer holiday malarkey. Back to school. Let's crack on with it.

Anthea: Yep, absolutely. That even though you haven't been at school for X number

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: of years, we all feel it at this time of year, don't we? A new term, new beginnings, yeah.

Matt: Exactly, a couple of years. So we had a fantastic response to the episode with our with our guest Matt Hyan. and so fantastic from lots of different countries as well. So thank you for reaching out. And we are going to have another guest episode real soon. So stay tuned. I'm not sure tuned is the right thing for podcasts, but stay, stay. Subs

Anthea: Yeah. Yes. Stay, don't go anywhere. Yeah.

Matt: Subscribe, subscribe. Fantastic.

Anthea: Absolutely.

Matt: So we're looking forward to that and we'll give some more info about that real soon. But today, Anthea, another big question. Can we really experience God? It's another biggie. So let me start by asking you this. When people say they've experienced God, what do you think they usually mean?

Anthea: Well, these are very difficult questions this week. And as we always say, you know, it's just us chatting on. And if you disagree or have a different view to what we're saying, then we'd love to hear that too. when people say they are experiencing God, I I utterly believe they are experiencing something.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Anthea: something that perhaps is other to themselves or to their kind of normal way of knowing and being, something a bit different, th that that they will that you call God or that is God,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Anthea: depending on how you're debating it. what do you think? I mean it it's a difficult one.

Matt: Well, I don't know. it is difficult, but are we talking about feelings, thoughts, a sense of presence? when you talk to some people about it, it feels like they have they are talking about something very, very tangible and real, but

Anthea: Hmm.

Matt: then for other people it might be something less tangible. So I think there's a big variation. Do you think we are we We should define this a little bit more, or do you think we use the phrase a little bit too casually?

Anthea: I think when we're using the phrase when people say I've heard from God, I've seen God, I know I God said or these sort of things, it if I've been reliably informed by my theologian husband, that in a classical theological sense, you can't there isn't God isn't a an entity. So God doesn't have a voice, God doesn't have a body, God doesn't have a a smell, God doesn't so in in We're using language and metaphor to try and explain a a a lived experience that is slightly beyond the norm. so yeah, hearing from God, what what actually does that mean? It could mean all sorts of things.

Matt: And how would we therefore explain that to someone who is is doesn't go to church? I remember, for example, a christening of one of my children and they really enjoyed church and said until they started talking about that Holy Spirit and presence bit and that that got a bit weird. So I think how do we describe an experience of God to someone who has never had that in their vernacular?

Anthea: Yeah, and that and I think we can get so used to kind of using the language and then it's probably different in different churches and different Christian settings, but we have this kind of lingo that we all know what it so we all think we know what it means, but do we know what it means? And when when you ask that question, how do you explain it to somebody who's who doesn't believe or know or have that experience? I think it then becomes quite hard. I think I think for me I would describe it as something as well as me, something different to me. A sense of another, a th a a universal connectedness, a sort of y you know, I I think it it can sound weird to t talk about spirit, but I think we are talking about spirit.

Matt: So so there have been moments that you could put your finger on and say, That moment there, I experienced God. Is that would that be fair to say? And when were those moments? Could you describe one specifically?

Anthea: Yeah. yeah, no, at the minute somebody asks you this, you th your mind goes blank, doesn't it? Well, I don't know.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Anthea: I mean I think throughout my life I've had moments when I've experienced God and it's it's easy to immediately to go to the big flash moments, but there have been times as a child when I I've just always believed in in believed in God and I think probably one of the mo the first profound moment was perhaps when I was confirmed in the in the Church of England. I did it all in a very formal high church way. I think I think we even wore a a white veil thing, and were blessed by the bishop and and very ceremonial and ritual, but I I in those moments I I I definitely experienced a s a sort a a sense of a presence of God with me. and that has followed throughout my life. There have been particular moments when I have felt that I'm a very visual person, so I might have a very clear dream. and I'm somebody who dreams a lot. A lot of most people don't, but I I do. I might have a very clear dream and wake up and think to myself, I don't think that was a cheese dream. I don't think that was just my the ramblings of my unconscious and and what I ate last night. It is so so not what I was thinking about that therefore I will wonder to myself, is God trying to say something or is God saying something? That might be an example. Sometimes I'm I might have a strong sort of visual picture in my head of something that is is there that wasn't there previously, which again I might say that that that's how God is talking to me. I think in more recent years it's it's much more that sense of presence. a real sense of some and it's so hard to put actually to put words to it. but that presence feels very reassuring, very calming, very centering, very loving, very holding. yeah.

Matt: And you can d and you can discern that from emotion.

Anthea: I don't know.

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: over the years, maybe I have, maybe I haven't. I d I think God ca as we've said this before on the podcast, I think God connects into us depending on who we are. So I d I don't

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: you you know, if we're emotionally wired people then it may well be through an emotion. If we're not, then it it it you know it's not going to be. So I'm A highly intuitive person, so you know, I'm I'm good at reading reading people, reading rooms. That isn't necessarily God talking to me, that's just me reading a room well, from how I'm wired. Or is it is it God talking to me? It could be both, could be both.

Matt: Yeah. It's funny because I mean, I don't see myself as someone who is super connected and can just switch a button and become sort of God present. But I do certainly know that there are certain times where I and it comes across as an emotional response. So for me is often crying and I will just randomly find myself crying, not necessarily from sadness or whatever. It might be in worship or prayer. And that feels different from what I would normally be, but it's difficult to say to what extent is that a presence of God and what extent is that a a heightened emotion for a for a different reason.

Anthea: Hmm.

Matt: so I think that's a that's the thing that I'm sort of questioning here is well how do how do I know? How would someone know that that is a presence of God as opposed to the presence of indigestion?

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: I guess

Anthea: and I I I think aga again we can't, you know, to somebody who d who doesn't believe in in God or in in Christian God in that sense, I I don't I don't think we can prove that what

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: we're experiencing is God or isn't, but then neither can they prove that it isn't. and we can't prove what what we're experiencing really. I mean I mean, yeah, you do hear amazing stories, don't you, of of of people I don't know, say for example, having a dream that is then very specifically linked to somebody else's experience that then is life changing for that other person. I've certainly never had that sort of thing happen. And e even then you could question it, but I was just thinking that actually there was one time when I had a dream and I about something and somebody and I r rang them up and left a rather lar long, rambling, mad message on their answer phone. This isn't somebody I knew very well. And and then I did get a message back from the the s person saying, wow, that's really amazing. This completely links to this X, Y, and Z. And now you could say, Well that that was definitely a message from God for that person to encourage them, blah, blah, blah. Or you could say, you kind of knew a little bit about that somewhere, maybe you'd picked up on it somewhere, and so your unconscious was doing that bit of work for you and it

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: it's just you. I mean, you could you could argue it in a different direction. I d I didn't then and I s I still wouldn't, but yeah, it's tricky.

Matt: Yeah, it's funny because I've only I've only personally ever experienced one dramatic feeling where I had this is a like an experience of God that was very dramatic, other apart from me crying and blubbing in worship every now and once once once a year. and it was in Albania on a mission trip. Well I was randomly went to Albania for a week with a couple of people you know, and I was asked to talk at the front and I had this sense, it was like a Tom and Jerry movie, you where you know where like Tom is in a bell and someone hits the bell and he wobbles like like crazy.

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: It felt like that to me when I was talking. And I sat down and sat next to Julian and said, I'm sorry about that. It must have felt weird. He goes, What you're talking about is completely normal. So it was just something that I felt almost physically, and

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: for no one else did, and it was just very, very odd. And I can't describe it in any other way other than it being very, very odd. That would be my only you know, if that was an experience of God, the only time that it's been very dramatic to me. and it but it sounds from what you're talking about as well that ex saying experiencing God sounds dramatic, but often it's quieter and more ordinary than that sort of hype. Would that be fair to say?

Anthea: I d I think so. I think I mean I I I've always sort of been in a quite a charismatic church tradition where experiences are valued. and yeah, I've had significant spiritual experiences which were God related. were they all God? Maybe, maybe not, but definitely they were. out of the ordinary back in the early nineties, the sort of time of what people under called then as the Toronto Blessing. I was very caught up in that. For those who are listening who don't know what I mean, that was the sort of a time when groups of people would gather in in in church meetings and there were sort of manifestations, if you like, of of what we call the Holy Spirit, what God th you know, and and all very weird, wacky stuff. looking back on it, people sort of twitching and shaking and like you said, crying and falling over and and other stuff which which I sort of thinking on now sounds completely mad. and y that was extreme, but it was very, very powerful. and definitely very real experiences. it it like at times being in a very, very deep trance. Very, very peaceful, very awesome. but those those sort of experiences happen few and far between. And I th I think you're you're right that the finding God in the ordinary is is is where we all are. and being

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: aware of God's presence with us, whatever we're doing. i it like for example, for me currently personally at the moment, I seem to be encountering God quite a lot. when I'm at the gym. And that's a a bit random. There I am doing a little weight thing and and and somehow in in

Matt: Is that g is that 'cause you're shouting, my God, that's heavy.

Anthea: Like it's it's something like that. no more. No

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Anthea: i it I don't know, it's just maybe it's just a bit of a more of a meditative sort of zone for me where I'm doing something repetitive and and like you say, quite hard and and it it it

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: it sort of focuses your thoughts and if you want to, but yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Do you but do you think though, in terms of this idea of experiencing God, we we sometimes miss God because we're waiting for something spectacular, and we're sort of we're we're actually it's gonna be in somewhere ordinary or quiet.

Anthea: Yeah. I mean, one of the a fa a line from a song that I really like by Mike Scott or The Water Boys is a line where he sings, I just found God, I just found God, I just found God where he always was. And

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: and that's really profound for me because it's like it it stopped looking in all these other

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: places because the ordinary, you know, why would God not be right where we are? And so I I think

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: it's it's very easy to to put down or diminish ordinary experiences that God is in, rather waiting for these amazing moments that that

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: inevitably people at the front of a church somewhere will be talking about. But I d life's not like that.

Matt: Yeah. And so do do you think we we we sort of overemphasise or put too much celebration on the dramatic visions and and things, because as you said right at the beginning, we're an experience culture and we're a short term TikTok TikTok nation that expec expecting

Anthea: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: something spectacular.

Anthea: I think we can, and I think in in the traditions that we find ourselves, I think in if you're in a a quieter church tradition, probably not, but I think when you you're in a a sort of church tradition that our churches come through and from where we're quite loud and noisy and and charismatic. So I I think it it is very easy, not deliberately, but it's very easy to weight things towards dramatic experiences. I think less so. currently. I think I think we are less like that. but but yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Okay, I I guess even in my relatively short period of you know being Christian, being involved in church, there has been seasons where certain things have become the deriga, you know, healing, you know, signs and wonders, etc. etc. And it seems to be that is more obvious to s you know, to to get behind if you've seen something like that. But I think what we're you've talked about a lot is this balance between that quite an ordinary emotional and spiritual encounter, which probably takes a bit more discernment between saying, Well, that's just how I am, that's just where I am right now, and that is an ex expression or an experience of God. Would that be fair to say?

Anthea: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Definitely.

Matt: And it and then that sort of leads us into this, I guess, a follow on topic, which is at what point do we say, Well, God that's what God has told me as opposed to, Well, that's just what I was thinking at the time.

Anthea: Hmm. It's interesting. I'm I'm preparing something for a talk and I'm looking at the prophet Ezekiel, which is a crazy old book. And it it it it's interesting that the prophets never said that God said. They just sort of sort of spoke on behalf of God, which is a little bit different. So I think anybody saying God said this to me, I'm always a little bit wary because you know, how do we actually know? rather than you, I think this is in the line of what God might like for us or you know with sort of different ways of phrasing it. I don't know, what do you what do you think? Do you think there is that sort of direct download going on for people?

Matt: Yeah. Well I I think I I'm a little bit w where you are in terms of and again I think there have been seasons where there's been a lot it was a lot more common for people to come up to you and say, God told me this about you as if it was just a fact and I'm not sure where where the testing process is on that to say, or or or how do you how do you balance that off with saying look, I've just got this sense. I think we're getting better in terms of our church at Not saying God told me this, therefore, you know, you should wear red trousers every Thursday.

Anthea: He's

Matt: but I don't know, I think some of this is about how do we get a discernment test to understand ourselves what is an experience of God and what is maybe something else, before we then pass that on. or should we just share it and allow other people to make make the best of it?

Anthea: I think it it depends who who the people are. If it's people we're in really close friendship with then and who know us well, then we could share something. If it's somebody we don't know at all or we just see it at a distance, then I think it's important to be really careful. And I think it's always caveating it. If I say anything, I'm always like, Well, this might be me, this might be God, this might be something else, but I've just got this. Take it if

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: you like. If you if it's a load of old rubbish, that's fine too. So you you're sort of offering it, but you're not saying you must take it, you know, because if I turn up and God says this, then it it it it puts me in a position of power. That person in a position if you have to receive it, because God said it, and and it doesn't allow any question or challenge or discernment. And that therein I think can lie hurt. I think people can get very hurt and damaged. if they have been on the end of God says this. And I and I think I mean discernment is a whole nother big subject. there is a talk somewhere in the River Church archives of me talking about discernment. but I think it is very important to and discernment is is a whole like weighing up, you know, is this, is this should I share this, should I not share this with somebody or should I just hang on to it? And I I I think it's it's just really important to be very careful what we say to each other. And I I think it God says or the Bible says is can get very weaponized. and there were there were lots of examples of that we can find very easily online. I keep losing my thought. I had one thing to say here and it keeps drifting out of my head. It'll come back in a minute.

Matt: Well let me well let me ask you a question to see if it would prompt it. Have you ever been really convinced that you've had some sort of word from God and then after t after a period of time you thought, well, maybe that wasn't maybe that wasn't that, it was something else. Have you ever reconsidered or changed your mind or because it can be very difficult to do that if you said th this

Anthea: Yeah. It's a good

Matt: I I got this word from God for you and then afterwards you think, well, maybe maybe that was I was th some thinking of something else.

Anthea: Maybe something else, maybe I didn't. I just remember what I was gonna say is that I I think it it's it's very important to run everything we we think God might be saying through a filter of what would you know, what would Jesus do? What does this is this

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: a Jesus Christ like looking way of treating somebody, talking to somebody, advising somebody?

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: It it it it's it's important to do that. I don't know. I mean I'm not somebody who's a great marcher about a giving people

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: the God said stuff. That's not really my way. But I I I certainly

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Anthea: could look back on experiences I've had and think, Yeah, at the time I thought that was a hundred percent God. Looking back, the God was definitely in it when there was an awful lot of hype and and and

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: hysteria and other stuff going on, other psychology, if you like, going on that is, you know, normal that wasn't acknowledged in in those moments, and should have been probably. So yeah.

Matt: Yeah. And so I think there is I mean, I thought don't think we should avoid the fact that I think there is some performative elements to this and there is some pressure. I I certainly have felt in the past in s other iterations of church that there has been a performative element of it and almost a pressure for spiritual experiences. And not everyone is gonna get that. So and but in some circumstances for very, very good reasons. But how can we sort of involve people who are very un feel very unconnected to that and don't feel that experience at all?

Anthea: in in a sort of a Sunday gathering sense or just a general talking to people sense or a yeah.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. Or a chur I I think as in a church, w I think it's more I'm thinking, in a in a collective environment where there's more

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: sort of o more open to manipulation or pressure to feel, act, behave in a certain way.

Anthea: I I think it it it it's very easy to swerve to the emotional experience is is the is the top notch and everything else is is nothing. And as we've said before, often the people standing around at the front are the extroverts and they're often

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: the intuitive ones, the pee pilly people, who feel things all the time. So they're gonna be getting God in big feeling doses.

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: the your quieter people, neurodivergent people, people who are very in their heads very word based. It will find God in very different ways. and it it it's always attending to that. And it it well I it I think I think with a church we need to get much better at that. and having space and and ways of of doing things that you know that that we perhaps wouldn't like, that others do like. So I don't know. Reading reading things out loud can be really helpful. Reading

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: a psalm out loud over and over again for a while, you know, might some people might hate that, some people might find that really helpful because they really like words. It yeah.

Matt: Hm, yeah. Yeah, and I guess because we are we are the type of people we are, we we want things to be positive, we want people to have great experiences, but for a lot of people, often for a lot of the time or for some of the time or for a season, God can feel absent. so you know, what about what what do what to do when that's the case in prayer, worship or or anything, you know, when God feels absent, how do we manage that with people?

Anthea: I think it's I think it's something we don't talk much about. And we have a mutual friend who we won't name, but he does talk about it in our in our home group. And I find that really helpful to find that hear that person talking about doubts and not being able to hear God. what does even that mean? you know, because it challenges the rest of us. Because of course we go through times when we're not we're not thinking about God very much. We're not we're not in however God normally talks to us, or we we believe God is talking to us, we don't we're not getting it. It and those times

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: can be quite hard. And I think it's it's very easy then just to pretend that that's not what's going on and to just put a smile on and turn up all over the place still

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: without being very authentic. And it it's different if you're the church leader than you're not. But I think I think it's really important to talk about it and to have have space or have friends or have a spiritual director or have somebody that you're talking to it

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Anthea: about it too. And because I don't think it's wrong to keep turning up and being in your community.

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: it it's like any relationship, sometimes you're feeling it, sometimes you're not. You don't abandon it the minute you don't feel it, or the minute it's not going as well as it was. You you stick in there and and work it through. and I think

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: spiritually we need to do that too.

Matt: I one hundred percent feel what I what what I know what I don't feel, which is a constant express expression of God or a constant level of feeling of faith. I have real doubt points and up points and midpoints, and that could be per hour, per day, per week, per month. So I think that you're absolutely right. There's no point pretending that that's it's always constant and that I always experience God personally. I don't experience God every day. I do it every now and then and it's you know and it's it it takes something to work it out. But yeah I think being open about the fact that it's you're not expected to experience God every time or every day or every Sunday at 10 30. Largely because we are always late when we start church anyway. So no one experiences God at ten thirty in Riverchurch Mell.

Anthea: Never at ten thirty.

Matt: No, no, no. do you think faith this is a a bit of a tangent, do you think faith can be healthy and real even if you're not feeling particularly spiritual? I think our type of church is tends to be more, I guess, spiritual and emotive. But if you're not feeling it, can is your faith still real?

Anthea: I don't I I don't know. d I don't think not feeling it means a necessarily a loss of faith. because I think a a lo a loss of faith is about deconstructing and dismantling things you've always believed in. And I think those are different. I might not feel God, but it doesn't stop me believing in God. I might not

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: I might not experience something for a while, but it doesn't doesn't stop me w continuing to want to follow the teaching of Jesus and all that he taught us and how to live. I I don't think I do that very well, but it there's a lot there to get on with, without needing

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: huge experiences.

Matt: Yeah, I come back to this thing about you saying before about we're such an experienced driven culture. but there is, I think there's something very much, maybe in more traditional churches, about the ritual and the you know, just that timetable of ritual and practice and and that being an important part as well. And I think we're we're starting to introduce more whether it's just saying the grace or the Lord's Prayer frequently rather than expecting just to turn up and there being some sort of spiritual experience.

Anthea: Hm.

Matt: you know, so I certainly think that's like spiritual practices which we've been talking about recently can form a really important part of that. If you're just not feeling it in a particular time, maybe that's when you making an effort to walk into it a little bit more is is is important. Yeah.

Anthea: Definitely, definitely.

Matt: So trying to create some practical stuff. We've talked about you know prayer and silence. We you've talked about silence before. Would there be anything that you would sort of recommend either for people who are very experiential or maybe going through a period of absence that would help in either in either front?

Anthea: I think I think practices are important. and there's a a wide variety of them. So I'll I'll just tell you my weekend. I'd had a really, really lovely weekend. on spent some time on Saturday just on my own walking and being. I I then went with a bunch of friends and we shared a meal and that was a really lovely time together. And for me, sometimes sharing a meal around a table is a wonderful practice, just being with people you trust. Then we went to what went to watch a an IMAX movie, The Odyssey, which was amazing. And

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Anthea: for me, who is interested in history and theology and philosophy, it just brings so many different strands together. Really interesting, really thoughtful, came out buzzing with lots of kind of God talk going on. and then Sunday morning we have our our our our gathering and we we were gathering around tables and just chatting, weren't we? Some some fun questions actually. But there was something about doing that together that I felt very energized by. Then I had a quiet afternoon on my and then we had our peace vigil where we just stand for sort of 10 minutes quietly in a garden all together, not not doing anything. And that that felt very meaningful. so there's also the diff different ways that we we can be on our own or being with each other. I think if there's an intentionality to it, that can be very helpful and spiritual practices will and do bring that.

Matt: Hmm. Yeah, and and maybe just the term spiritual practices sounds a little bit churchy for some people, for me. We

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: maybe just use some different words for that. I don't know. Yeah, being quiet or silence or a bit of meditation or that type of stuff can I think be important there as well. But it's sort of finding a bit of space, yeah, space in the noise for it, for experience.

Anthea: Mm, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Matt: So if we are using that, using spiritual practices therefore to open ourselves up to the possibility of experiencing God, how do we how do we how do we avoid becoming like attributing everything that happens to us to God? I've you know, I've had a nice walk, and I felt nice, I attribute that to God. How do we s how do we make sure we're not just being gullible?

Anthea: Do you think that's being gullible?

Matt: Well, I'm not saying definitely I'm not saying you've been gullible when you're walking Vesper, but you know what I mean? Is this

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: like you can attribute everything good to God and everything

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: not good to something else?

Anthea: Absolutely. And there's so much in between there that's just stuff and us and life.

Matt: Mm. Yeah.

Anthea: And it it it again that will come back to your view of how you see God. If you see God as this all powerful, all controlling entity, God that is is moving everybody around like I don't know, some

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: army game, then then maybe you would attribute everything to God. You see God as the the life source of the the universe that's holding everything together, then you could be grateful that everything ultimately perhaps emanates from God, but who's who's creator. But it doesn't mean that everything we do is is we attribute to God. because a beautiful sunset in you know next day it's gonna be raining, it that's mind you might find rain beautiful as well. I don't know. It's I think it's about being realistic. But but i e equally not not then you can be gullible but then not and then going right to the cynical side either and saying nothing

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Anthea: there's nothing in anything. I think there is there is a spiritual a space for the spiritual in everyone.

Matt: And what and what safeguards should we or or would you suggest you put around to avoid manipulation around experiencing God?

Anthea: I think it's just being real. and like we were saying earlier, not not using the God says kind of language and being real about why we're doing things and why we're not doing things. And like i I've been taking a a meditation class, a sort of a secular meditation class, which I find really, really helpful. one of the things that the the teacher said was that we close our eyes to shut down one of our senses so that we can pay more attention with our other senses. And that's why it can be helpful in in the prayer sense, Christian prayer, if you close your eyes, just because it it helps you focus a little bit more. doesn't mean you have to close your eyes. and it's about giving permission, you know, if you'd like to stand up, you may, if you'd like to sit down, you may, if you'd like to close your eyes, you can. You don't have to. And You know, being real. The reason we close our eyes is not because it makes us all holy, it's because it just helps us focus. so yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think also, I mean, we we might be in a little bit of an echo chamber in in in a church or in a church community where we can say things like, I just really got experience or God said this to me. I wonder how we would say that those that express that same thought to someone, a friend who is not a believer or doesn't go to church, and how could we say that in a way which expresses expresses it in a real way?

Anthea: Hmm.

Matt: to them and it might be a useful exercise to think, well, if I could express it in that way without using almost like a cliche, maybe it might describe it better.

Anthea: Yeah, I like that. I like that.

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: and it it it's yeah, it it it don't have to be super godly. It's is okay to say to a friend, I was just really thinking about you the other day and it occurred to me to wonder whether you've ever thought about X. You know, that

Matt: Mm.

Anthea: might what you might have been doing is praying about that person, but that would

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: weird them out. But you could just still say, I was just wondering about this if you ever thought about that and they might say, No.

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: You might okay, obviously it wasn't God then. You know, it it it it's

Matt: Yeah.

Anthea: you Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that that that's good. Although increasingly what I'm finding after being cautious about it for years and years is that if I do say to you know a couple of friends or been prone about you, they don't that they don't mind. They actually quite like it. So just to sort of wrap things up a little bit, I think this has been really quite interesting. It started off you saying it was a very difficult conversation. I think it's been an interesting conversation and

Anthea: Seems to have flowed, yeah. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, and and again I think we should maybe put some sort of health warning. These are our thoughts and ideas. Other

Anthea: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Matt: thoughts and ideas are are available. But look, what

Anthea: Exactly.

Matt: what what about for for someone listening who is spiritually curious and never felt they've experienced God? What would you encourage them to try?

Anthea: I would encourage them or if you're listening you to to try what you're drawn to. So if you're drawn to I don't know, I just fancy standing in a massive cathedral and just being seeing how I feel, or I just fancy standing on the top of a mountain, or I just fancy just going along on a Sunday and trying out different different churches, or I just fancy trying out these I these ideas around spirituality that that Christians do. I mean we're talking in the Christian tradition, aren't we? That, you know, what does prayer look like? How do I do that? Are there some written down that I can follow? Are there songs that I might like to sing? Are there I don't know. It it it's try a few things and see what happens. Talk to some people about the the results. Be curious, experiment.

Matt: Yeah, I would I think that's good advice. And just one ridiculously counterintuitive piece from me, what I've been trying to do recently is to listen to less podcasts.

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: apart from ours. I

Anthea: Mm.

Matt: think one of the things that I found is that I've almost been constantly needing to be plugged into something. And I even if it's just when I'm walking my dog, just think taking the choice, well, this is gonna be 40 minutes of nothing. and maybe that creates a space for just some gentle thought openness but obviously i'm not telling people not to listen to our podcast because it's great and it's always

Anthea: Absolutely. Yeah.

Matt: a pleasure always a pleasure to chat with you Anthea so thank you so

Anthea: Always a pleasure, yeah. Thank you.

Matt: much and as we said we will have a new podcast with a guest coming soon which I think is going to be really really cool

Anthea: Yeah.

Matt: so please please stay tuned for that and we'll look forward to speaking again soon.

Anthea: Absolutely. Thank you very much. And thank you all our listeners.

Matt: Bye now.

Anthea: Bye.