Leaving Well

Welcome to Anonymous Church, a podcast sharing real stories of faith, church, and ministry, and all the ways that they've shaped us. Each week, you'll hear stories submitted anonymously, honest conversations with guests, and reflections that remind us that we're not alone. This is a safe space to speak your truth and heal together.

Our first guest is my friend Jon. Before I share his very well curated bio, I want to say that Jon is the real deal. He's done the work and he's always working to be the best version of himself.

I feel so honored that he agreed to sit down and share his experience with me, but I'm most excited for you to hear it.

Jon and his wife Mandi whom he calls the kindest human ever, they've been married for 25 years and are raising four kids together, two through adoption, plus they also have four dogs. Jon's a practitioner at The Good, which is a small values-based also the founder of TBD Creatives, which is a nonprofit that employs the overlooked and under-resourced.

and right now he's training to become a grief doula.

Jon describes himself as a mystic, which means he's more interested in experiencing the divine than thinking about it. He's also extremely curious, and that's led him to often read multiple books at a time. But outside of that, he loves music, collecting vinyl, and watching his oldest kids step into adulthood.

church life now, he described it as helping people let go of the kind of faith that made them afraid to live and embracing faith that makes them whole.

Jon Mays (01:40)

to the podcast. Thank you. We're so glad that you're here again. Yes. So for anyone listening, we already recorded this allegedly. one really knows. There's no evidence. There's no evidence because I didn't actually record it. So we're back again and I'm so excited because I've already heard the things that you said.

So before we get started, I wanted to share about our first interaction and I'm guessing you don't remember it. boy. So I was interviewing. Okay. And.

Part of the interview process is like you're sitting with multiple people and you are one of the people, but you are not yourself. Okay, I didn't know this at the time. This is the only interaction I've ever had with you. And you are extremely stoic. You are giving me nothing. No nods, no smiles, no affirmation at all. No, I was bad cop. Yes. And they asked me to tell a joke.

And I knew going in that they used to ask to tell inappropriate jokes, but you couldn't do that anymore. But I knew that. So I decided to just go for it and told like a very inappropriate joke. Like I will never repeat it. It was so bad. It was so, so bad. I was a different person back then, you guys. And you died laughing. Like you completely broke your character. You laughed so hard.

I appreciate audacity. I just was, I was like, what do I have to lose? I'm just going to go for it. I did get the job ⁓

So the first day that I went into work, I really thought you were a jerk. Yeah. Quickly I found out like, that's, that was a facade. That's not really you are. Gosh. All right. So what year would that have been? 2013. Oh yeah. That...

Yep. Yeah, that makes sense that yeah. That was this, I was in my whatever you, I am what you tell me to do. That's was in my spiritual formation era.

So, when did you, what year did you go into vocational ministry? I think it was like 2013. Okay, so it just on earlier. It was December of that year for me. So, it just went on that year. That's crazy. Okay, so I know your story because you just told it to me last week. But for everybody else, could you share kind of how you got to the point of vocational ministry? Yeah, God's divine sense of absolute comedy was not supposed to

didn't grow up in the church, never had any intent on being a Christian, let alone a pastor. super long story, somewhat shorter, maybe. don't know. We showed back up in Oklahoma city.

Had been married 10 years, had two kids. This is me and my wife not doing great. We are on the back end of what we now refer to as my Charlie Sheen years that involves literally whatever you think that involves. I wasn't on a sitcom though, unfortunately. but we ended up here, didn't know anybody.

She wasn't doing well. I wasn't doing well. She ends up at church. One of our old bartenders invited her to go to her church. She went, gives her life to Jesus, starts taking the kids. I started getting angry about it, about this time, one of my friends asked me to write a screenplay for him. He was doing like straight to DVD stuff out in LA. I was like, OK, sure.

anything else going on right now. And so it was about religion, and so I needed some dirt. And so I was like, hey, you keep asking me to go to church with you. I'll go next week. Perfect opportunity. Yeah, yeah. And so I showed up and it wasn't like I hadn't experienced this type of church before, like contemporary or whatever.

I just remember it was like, oh, this dude's preaching about the sun literally not moving in the sky. And I'm like, oh, OK, cool. Y'all believe this. This is fun.

I only reason I went back is cause I didn't get any dirt. Like people were actually kind So I went back and then it was a message series where essentially just talked about like, Hey, your life's a wreck. You have, you're probably going to get divorced and you're depressed. And I'm like, yeah, you have anxiety. I'm like, ⁓ you're addicted. I'm like, I'm trying like, and I think it was actually the first moment in my entire life. where I was like,

Oh damn, I'm miserable. Like if this is life, I'm not happy about any of this. So it was a very arrogant kind of salvation prayer. And I was like, you're on the clock. so I'm not repeating the words. I'm just like, I don't believe in you. I don't think this is real, You have a month. Like I don't have anything else going on. I literally like cut off all things secular.

Of course. Yes, did all those things. Just read the Bible, ⁓ which I didn't understand, listened to every message that was like archived online from this church and just like mainstreamed it. And somewhere along the line in those 30 days, I was like, I'm going to keep doing this. There seems to be enough to the Jesus-y thing for me to keep doing it. but of course, like you don't, you just are kind of the same person that you are.

but with Jesus' skin on it. You know what I mean? So it's like, I was kind of an arrogant prick prior. So now I was just kind of still the same guy, but about Jesus-y things. And so I remember being really kind of cocky a few months into my faith, because I was doing all the things you're supposed to do. Like, I could check all the boxes on the card, because I was in a lot of those areas. And I remember standing at my job,

And it wasn't audible, but it was like deep. And it was like, I'm like, you must be pretty proud of me. I'm doing all the things. It's like, not all of them. I remember texting a pastor and being like, I think I'm supposed to be a pastor. And like a year later, I was on staff.

It's so crazy because I imagine there are probably people listening. This just occurred to me that are like, I literally worked my ass off to be on staff at a church and you kind of fell into it accidentally. Yeah. Well, I mean, I won't like, I wanted it. So it's not like, Oh, they just wanted me. No, it was like, I got told no two and a half times before I actually ended up like on the team. You were just committed. I was, well, the first time they wanted me to be a youth pastor or it was like, Hey, interview for this. Cause this is what's open.

Can you imagine a world where you were a youth pastor? No. Not for more than 90 days. You said, how many F words in front of that kid? Like, all of them. So it was like, no, we like them. Just absolutely don't put them in youth. Yeah. They knew pretty quickly. Yeah. So that's how I ended up in...

In vocational ministry. How long were you there? 10 years on staff. I think I attended for two, just under two prior to that. Okay. That's a long time. Yeah. All the same, like mostly same spot, right? Yeah. Because we worked together two different times, but you didn't move. did. You were exactly where I left you. I came back and you were still there. Different, but still there. so what in the world? I mean, I know you had,

a generally good experience in ministry, would you say that? largely, yeah, like, so like the, a whole lot of

If you parcel out like this, I had a lot of really good experiences with people. I had experiences with theologies and systems that at the time I thought were good experiences looking back where I'm like, those probably weren't the best for me or for maybe some others. And then some, like just a handful of...

of negative experiences with people and systems, I'm not like a burn it down kind of guy, right? Right. Unless it's like something that has to be burned down and it's like,

I haven't found anything in the world that is inherently bad. I love that. Like everything's got good in it. so like it, I would be being dishonest to be like, there's nothing about it that is good because it's got people in it and I believe people are good. So. Right. Yeah. I feel similar because I did have so many good seasons. I literally got three kids, like I adopted three kids because I worked there. I never would have pursued that. Like I feel like that was our fault too. Yeah. You 100 % are responsible.

You and my best friend who at the time was at a different location with me,

And now I have five kids. thanks for that, you guys. You're welcome. It turned out okay. Yeah. Okay. So generally a good experience. How did you, why did you leave? Like if it was a good experience, tell me about that process. Yeah. So kind of a trifecta of perfect storms. So you had probably the longest thing coming was like not coming to faith until my thirties.

My frontal cortex had fully developed. So, like, I engaged with scripture, I think, in a healthier way. Like, I never just like, I may have read it, but I didn't believe it. And if I hadn't experienced it, so I was like, maybe it's a consideration. And so, I think that allowed for a, and I don't mean that this is not arrogant, like, I lucked out by not growing up in these systems.

because I didn't have those barriers to overcome and things to unlearn, it was easier to learn. And so this puts me on, I think, a fairly fast track through non-churched evangelical, post-evangelical, let's just throw the labels out and love Jesus. It is what it is. Yeah.

But by year six, it's like, don't half of this, I'm not sure about 25%. I don't believe. And some of them are getting to be some of the non-negotiables. Yeah. Yeah. And so was like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm not uncomfortable yet because we've talked about this before. A lot of it depends on what, who your leader is. Yes, it does.

I had two leaders specifically that I could kind of, well, all three, could kind of do whatever I wanted. like we got along, it was relational and I served a purpose. was doing a good job.

So that made it easy for me. I didn't ever feel like I had to hide, but in the back of my mind, I knew like, at some point in time, this is, we're going to be misaligned. So that probably happened to your eight and I stayed because I didn't know what else to do. Yeah. It feels scary. Yeah. Well, I felt disingenuous because it's like, and I wasn't lying about things.

But I also was like, having to be care—like if I'm talking about Jesus, I had to be careful about how I talked about Jesus. Yeah. And so that was weird. So that's like the first one. But it's actually like the second piece was I just, I had taken over a role that hadn't existed before that was all about—

how to be the church outside the four walls of the church. And we expected that that would be kind of a slow burn and take us a long time to kind of rethink some things and implement some new systems. So it was supposed to be like a five year deal. And then COVID happened. Shakes up everything. Shakes up everything. it actually like, everybody was thinking missions. Everybody was thinking outside of the four walls of the church.

And so we, took what would have been a crock pot, put it in a microwave and like we got, we did, created a lot of change in a short amount of time. And then, but there's like theory of change. You can really change so many things at a time. So yeah, the first few things like my belief system's changing, COVID happens. And then it's like, now,

we need to build the church back up. So we got rid of that role. And so my option was,

Go back and lead it to campus which at some point time I mean like that tends to be everything's people But it's tithing in attendance

Which are two things that I don't get excited about. So I don't think I would have done a great job. Or worse, I would have done a great job. So neither of those were great options. Or the other thing was they're like, hey, we're actually believing you enough that we think if you're going to build something, we'd love to see you succeed at that.

will even help if it makes sense. And so that led me to stepping off the team almost three years ago. So it was like, I didn't get fired, I could have gone back, but I think we all knew I wasn't gonna go do that. But at the same time, there was this other caveat of like, but we see something, God's doing something there, so we don't wanna throw water on it, go see what you can figure out. So that's what we did. I love that so much. I just remembered something really random, but.

When I stepped off the team, was in the height of COVID. And so there was no like going away party or like, you know, anything like that. You go by your house and honk. Literally, like I was just at my house. I am pretty sure I resigned over zoom. there was no, there was no end of career thing. So I didn't tell very many people. And I remember you texting me and you were like, why didn't you were like, I think you said literally, Audie freaking day, which you say to me, I feel like often, And you were like,

I didn't know you were leaving, but then you said, when did you know? And I'm wondering if the time aligned that that might be close to where you were like, maybe this isn't. Like you were already past where I was, I think, but I just didn't know because we didn't work together at the time. Yeah, maybe, Yeah. I think.

when I made the switch from like one world to the other, that bought me time. Yeah, that's a good point. There's a little more diversity of theology and thought openly when you're not on the front lines. Right.

I think I was thinking it at the campus and then when I was in another role, I think that subsided for a minute. I was like, Oh, okay. This is different. Sure. Yeah. I mean, it did. It's not like you went there and you were like, this is terrible. No, it worked until it didn't.

a lot of times, and I think I mentioned like, it's kind of scary to change your whole life stepping out of ministry. Did you experience any fear and what kind of helped you overcome that? Can you walk me through that? Yeah, I think definitely fear. There's a lot of safety and security in full-time vocational ministry.

knowing that I was going to try to step out and do some Jesusy things on my own, I think made me excited enough that it overcame some of the fear. then I also, like, I had friends that had left, like, after 10 years, and this wasn't on purpose, but I think for like the last three, maybe even four years, I was on the team. I was the small group leader of a group.

that was nothing but former staff members. I was like, this, and so like, was already hearing people processing grief And so when I knew I was leaving, then it was how arrogant would it.

be for me to be like, oh, all of them, but not me. And I'm like, okay, well, something's going to happen. And so I actually had the foresight of knowing that there would be that, that moment where I'd be, you know, mad about something disappointed, whatever, some type of emotion. Uh, so when they asked like, Hey, how do you want to be celebrated? I was like, you know what? Don't do anything crazy, but have it. If anyone that wants to can just write me a letter and just have them drop them off.

So I had those, I didn't open them and I just kept them until there was a week where I was like feeling like pretty bitter about some stuff. Uh, and so I opened them, um, it didn't help first pass, second pass absolutely helped.

The reason I say it doesn't help is like normally what I was grieving mostly was relationship, right? Like people that you see all the time, but around all the time, So I was grieving that. And so then when you go through, quickly recognize like who didn't right who, but then there were some where they did and you were surprised. and then.

Largely it was the for lack of depth. It felt almost like a yearbook of like the kid that sat three rows behind you that signed it. And you're like, think his name is Ryan. And it's like, have a great summer bud. And you're just like, yep. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's like,

all this time, all this proximity, but it wasn't just that they didn't even know me. They didn't. I, I didn't know them either. And then I had to realize like, yeah, because the last three years you were there, you weren't showing anybody actually who you were. And so I was like, well, whose fault is this? I think it's, I think it's both hands.

But like for me on my end, this feels like I wouldn't even say 50-50. I don't know who rejected who, like who rejected me. Actually, no, not in real time. As I process it with you, it's my fault. Because I had already rejected their ideology, their theology, and has deemed it as if I am really me. I am not safe here. So that started with, I had to make that.

I had to make that assessment. So you can call it discernment, you can call it judgment. I don't know. I didn't do it. So we won't know if that's true or not true. Right? Right. But I think like I started that and then just kind of that led me on this thing. I think we talked about it last time is like the, the re recognizing

The propensity for pain when you leave something based off the law of three spaces, right? So a lot of three spaces Human beings generally live in three spaces The first space is their family unit the second space is their job The third space is the third space and third spaces are just kind of that one extra thing that you do Frequently with other people and for most folks in the West

That's been the church. It's like quickly your family, first space, second space, get kind of Venn diagrammed together. Because often like your kids are serving or they're multiple like services.

And then the third space was your church. And you're so busy that you don't actually have room for another third space. So this is your third space. So you used to find your identity in three different spaces and show up as three.

Not different versions of yourself, but everybody needed something different from you. Well, all of that got thrown into one bucket and then you take the bucket away and it all still exists. Like none of those people went away, but there's no structure to hold it anymore. And now you got to figure out what's my family look like without all this,

So, but yeah, you have to, now you gotta renegotiate your family life. You gotta renegotiate, like you gotta go find a vocation and then you have to renegotiate like, this even still, is this still my church home? Do I find another church home? Do I not do church? Where's my third space? Where are my people? Yeah. Right. So it, I don't think we talk about that enough that.

This is when you step in if you don't create really strong boundaries to where you see that like no no no This is who my family is Yeah without all of this and this is what this is without all of that When you leave Inevitably whether you choose or don't because it's universal for the most part. That's true

I think having that awareness is, I didn't have the language for it, but I was aware a little bit of it and I can't remember. think somebody mentioned it to me. Like, so it's probably, I don't know, someone could be listening to this and be like, that was me. Text me, let me know. Cause like it's been so helpful. Um, but yeah, I just kind of expanded on it. So. Yeah, I love that. Um, I think it also just explains.

I think a lot of times people leave and they think, I don't know who I am. And it's because usually our identity is wrapped up in those three things, but then when they're all wrapped up in the same thing, we really literally don't know who we are. Like we walk away and I don't feel like I had like a crisis of myself, but I do remember this moment where I was like, it turns out I really don't have to do anything.

I can just do whatever I want it turns out. And I had never considered that as an adult before. I was like 23 when I went into full-time ministry and that's young. That's some formative years of my life. So I think rediscovering that was really healthy for me, but I've watched a lot of people where that journey has not been healthy, like going, maybe it wasn't their choice. Maybe it was, and they knew, but they just.

I don't know. You kind of processed it before. So do you have any advice for what healing might look like if they have exited vocational ministry and they're still figuring it feels very jumbled?

it's, it's systematic. Right. So, I, yeah. So hints.

the, me talking about being the reluctant pastor. Yeah, I that. hate to like, make this into a sermon, but you have to start with theology. because if we, if most folks that are stepping out of spaces like this tend to grow up with kind of a truncated gospel, right? That's going to start at the fall, So,

you've been in a third space and it's been largely a theology in the West is like, you're bad. And then you kind of rose into the second hierarchy of goodness. Cause it's like, I was lost, but now I'm found. And then not only now are you found, you're in charge of other people getting found.

That does so much to your identity. Essentially. It's like you never worked on the shame. You never worked on the wretch.

parts, the broken part, all the things that I reject. And you just got validated. And so you put skin on your shame and your pain, and then you got promoted in that, that even insulates it more. And then when you lose those things, all of a sudden that shame and that pain are a lot closer. They're not in the unconscious anymore. This creates grief. You're not just grieving this new season.

in your life, you're actually grieving every single thing that is trying to come out and trying to be processed and trying to be healed, because that's actually what salvation is. it's here now. And so, again, like, without being preachy, is like rethink and reframe your gospel. Your gospel is not wrong, right? Your gospel is not wrong. It's just your life has outgrown it.

And it's better news than you think. actually has like real practical, mystical healing principles in it for you right now. that make how you show up in the world, better.

⁓ softer, kinder, gentler to you, gentler to other people, and ultimately it will produce the very thing that you were told you needed to produce in evangelical spaces, which is don't sin. Like when you're not as harmed, you produce less harm. yeah, go back to your theology.

and recognize like as you do that, then there's could be a tendency to be bitter and be like, well, why didn't they tell me? Well, because a lot of folks don't know. Right. They don't know. We're all figuring it out. Yeah. Everyone's doing the best they can with what they have. And when you recognize like you too, we're doing the best you can with what you had and now you have something different. So now you want to do the best you can with what you have now. And I think we spend a lot of like healing is important. Telling the truth is important because you can't heal what you don't talk about.

when we tell truth, it allows people to reconcile to competing truths. Like I thought everything was awesome. I'm hearing a story over here where everything's not awesome. It's pretty bad. Can two things be true? And if they are, how do we now reconcile these things that

acknowledge that this thing still happened and how do you keep these things from happening? Right. So you've got that piece. but when you recognize like we can spend so much time talking about what we didn't get, recognize that you're just grieving. That's grief. We make it about anger and anger. We don't run out of anger that will burn forever.

But if we can take it down to like the blue part of the flame and be like, oh, that's grief. Yeah. I'm like, needed to be seen. I need to be known. needed to feel. And I was. But then when I changed or I evolved or I backslid, whatever you want to call it, then I didn't belong as much. So it's like the very thing that brought me there, the vulnerability of needing belonging and wanting belonging and meaning and purpose, when all of a sudden it's like,

I never healed from those perceived misperceived lacks. And now I leave, you're going to feel all that lack over again. Yeah. Right. And you've missed all this time that you could have been healing.

And so, yeah, like even since I've left, I've had uncomfortable conversations with friends and former staff friends and et cetera. And there's been discomfort. But like it's always been like, I'm just letting you know. Yeah. And now that I've let you know, I know I've let you know. And now I get to move on. Yeah.

And so I think that's important. think the two things that we tend not to do is we tend to stay angry and we tend, most people I meet aren't carrying torches and pitchforks. They're not trying to burn stuff down. And they want to, they've grown up in this honor culture. We don't want to, we want to honor Christ in His church. Okay.

Get it, I get it, but then now no one's talking. And so people are in silence, and then it feels like you're the only one. feels like, and it's just like community come together, like talk, talk, talk, keep talking, keep talking with the agenda to heal. So if we're staying silent and keeping, or.

I don't want to say keeping, but not challenging a small theology. Yeah. I think we'll be stuck for a minute.

if someone's listening to this, like, no, like really crappy things happening.

telling me to focus on me. I'm like, because that's been weaponized. Hey, move past it. No, no, no. Move through it. Yeah. Move through it. You have to deal with it. Yeah. Deal with all of it. Move through it. Don't go around it.

think that's like a campfire song or something. Yeah. Yes it is. Okay. I remember it. can't remember what it was, I think it had bears in it. Yes. And there's a lot of obstacles that you cannot go around or over every time. I'm sure there's toddlers out there that know it. I don't remember it. I hope they're not having to listen to this podcast already. Like, man.

If you're eight and you're listening to this, I am so, sorry. There are most definitely children that were traumatized by me because I was in kids' ministry. I remember one time, I can't believe I'm sharing this. Actually, I know the mom now, so I feel like I can say this out loud, but there was one time that I got a call because a kid had gone to church with her dad and a small group leader in their room told them that they were going to go to hell if they if they sent, just basic.

the kid was like six. And so the kid goes home to mom who was not religious. It's like, ⁓ I went to church. She's like, what'd you learn? Well, I learned that if I sent him in and go to hell and the mom was pissed, rightfully so. And she called me and here's the sad part. I doubled down. I was like, well. Your son will know the truth.

and she wasn't yelling at me when she got off the phone. She was like, thank you for explaining that. And I'm like, how did we get there? Because I was so wrong. I'm so sorry.

So this is where I lose, I'll just go ahead like, I probably lost my man card a long time ago. It's fine. I think baby Christians, like when you're new to your faith and you're taking it seriously. Yes.

It's like vampires, baby vampires in the Twilight saga. They're just like, why they're like, they're so passionate. it's, it's, I don't know. Our vampire is good, but it's like, it's positive direct. It's just all spent in like wild flailing.

dangerous ways, they just don't know any better. I'm sorry. We don't know any better. I still, I'm sure offend people regularly. Like even now. Um, that's so true. I love that you acknowledge that you watch the Twilight Saga. I think to be fair, now I saw one of them on my own and then it was like, I don't know why I did that. But then my daughter is obsessed.

Yes, so I've seen them all

I love that. Yeah.

do you have any specific regrets from your time in ministry that like, would say you're a pretty healed person now. So you probably aren't being haunted by decisions that you made, but is there anything that you felt like you had to reconcile once you stepped out of that? yeah, like,

It's so, there's so much, right? Yeah. so we'll go the easy one first and hopefully in the back of my mind, the more nebulous one will form. like I said, you do the best you can with what you have and.

I didn't have much from an understanding of humanity. Like I probably did five funerals before anyone I cared about died. Wow. Like in my whole life. Hmm.

so when you were in situations that require some deep pastoral presence, I'm not even, I'm not even talking about answers. Cause I think I showed up with like probably whatever answers were on like the e-learning and it probably, I regret not shutting my mouth quite a bit and just sitting with people weeping with those who weeped morning with those who are morning.

laughing and dancing with those who are laughing and dancing. Like I wish I would have known that presence was better than trying to lead them to an outcome or an answer

just sitting there, not thinking about what to say, but just like sobbing with people that were sobbing. I wish I knew that earlier. So I regret that. Again, not shame around it, but I regret it.

So what I regret the most is like you talk about healing and I have so much more healing to go through, but like I've dealt with like if it's a gobstopper, like I've actually started like sucking on the thing. Like we're working our way through things. So I'm healthier than I've ever been for sure. and some of that work started while I was still there. And I wish I would have earlier just been who I was and allowed people, because I think I probably hold

resentment or ill will sometimes to towards people who actually would have responded the opposite way. I think they would have responded. That's fair. We don't know how people are going to respond to the most authentic version of ourselves and our crazy, like I've had some really bad theology.

in between getting to what I think is now questionable theology. You know what mean? think 60 % of my theology is solid, 40 % of it's absolute crap, and I don't know which is which, which is why we need people to like challenge us and to us and like do these things in conversation. yeah, my regret would be not to like that twofold, not knowing what I didn't know and knowing that presence mattered more than answers. And then the other thing is similar. It's like its relationship. I wish I would have

interested.

people then, like I'm learning to trust people now, like just in general. It's like, I'm going to be just fully me. And if that's not a fit for you, that's wildly okay. And that is, it took me a long time to get there. Yeah. Watching this evolution is incredible. Like, because I feel like when I initially met you, you were very similar to me in that you were antsy. Maybe that's not the right word.

but you were constantly doing more things, constantly moving, not sitting still. And now I low key think you're like a Buddha situation where it's like at any given moment I might find you anywhere in the city meditating quietly to yourself. I, what a 180, honestly, like that's a different, a different space. And I know that's really hard to go from that to this space of peace. And I think it's really true, like inner peace. Is there anything that you've done specific to get there?

Maybe anything practical?

So, yeah. so it's winning by losing. We have to slow down everything we do. And I like, there's no reason.

essentially like this is, I can make a really strong argument. Walter Bruggen makes it better cause it's his argument. ⁓ but, ⁓ pull up any of his stuff where he talks about empire, particularly in Exodus, we are living the West really most of the world, like this is where the world has shifted. We're, there's a lot of empire going on now. So the, it's the idea of like everyone is working in where we're at the point of the story where we don't have straw. Right.

⁓ And so what this does is it fractures people until you see it. So everyone's been grieving. This is why you see all this violence is like Undealt with grief always turns anger anger goes inward and we're like, nope, not judging me. I'll judge you. Boom Everything from shootings to wars like it's all like all violence is a production of our unhealed pain. so you have to reclaim your agency to slow down. Yeah, and if that means you have to live on less do less

Um, have no streaming services, whatever, like literally slow down and get still. And the reason we don't like to do that is because the moment we get still, those things start to come up, let them come up, let them come up. Um, so yeah, slowing down and then as they come up, obviously therapy, like if you can go to therapy, go to therapy, now there are going to be people watching this that are listening. Maybe that like, like that's not an option for me. Um, you know what? There's.

Every therapist I've talked to has said probably like, is not a down com therapist. I love them. I need them. Um, but then like in 60, 65 % of what we do, they don't need us for it. They just need somebody that will listen to them and not try to solve their problem. find a friend, like reach out.

Like you just need someone that will listen to you. So yeah, therapy slowing down and then getting into actual meditation, meditation and mindfulness, paying attention to what's actually going on. Get out of your head, stop living in your head. Most of the things that are happening in your head aren't even real, right? They're not real. Like they're the only thing that is real right now is like, what is in front of you? It's the only thing you can really change. So if we all,

even me being someone who's very justice oriented, like I want to change the world, but I have to keep reminding myself, no, I need to change my world. need to change my world, how I attach to things. And when I do that, actually produces fruit outside of me. And that may or may not produce change that I want to see. Right. But that's not my job. My job is to pay attention to what's going on in here. So I'm big on all of the inner healing work, meditation, therapy, those types of things. can tend you.

⁓ plethora of resources. But, it's really just insight app is a great one. Okay. Headspace is a, is a good one.

So enjoy it, right? Slow down, see all the things. you can just do breath prayer. OK. Because that's something that when you're scattered, when you're anxious, when I get stressed out, like, what are we going to do for dinner?

I literally can just like breathe 20 times and like in for four, hold for four, out for four, hold for four. A lot of people do that as like a workout method, but it brings everything down. And suddenly I'm thinking about my breathing and I'm thinking about why I think about my breathing. And I know when I'm breathing like that, I am seeking peace. And that peace I always find here.

And when we recognize this is where it's at, and I'm not so far off the reservation, like, believe this is Christ. I believe this is Jesus. Like, Jesus, we are the temple. Give me all your Bible verses. I'm with you. Like, I'm with you. But it's here,

And we've actually built all of our systems and our religion out here. And Jesus didn't spend a lot of time in the modern temple. And so I think it's very telling when it's like, hey, you are the new temple. It'd be, like, you keep, like, it's never been in this. Like, I've met you here because this is where you are. But I'm now telling you explicitly, this is where it is. And this is where you'll find it.

Audi Day (34:23)

This week on social media we asked, if you could tell your past self one thing, what would you say? Here are the best responses.

You haven't lost community forever. Their opinion of you should not consume you. Speak up before culture has you bite your tongue. You are so much more than this. Your calling is bigger than a place. You are not too much. You do not need to change who God made you to fit in.

It's okay to trust your gut.

Audi Day (34:49)

Every day on social media we're answering questions just like these and more. Check out our show notes to find out how to connect with us on Instagram and Facebook.

Audi Day (34:58)

Thanks for listening to Anonymous Church. When you're ready, you can share your story at see you next time.