Shifting Perspectives - Biblical Conversations about Topics that Matter - Episode 21

Welcome to Shifting Perspectives,

biblical conversations about topics that

matter. Let's get to

it. All right, everybody. So, as you

have been going on this journey with us

and really kind of what we're talking

about is how do I pick a local church?

How do I pick a denomination? what's the

right denomination? You know, we are um

you know, we are a Southern Baptist

church, but we're a local autonomous

church. Um and you know, I'm a pastor,

so I would always say, well, you're

welcome to come here, right? Of course.

But that's what that's what what

everyone would say. And so, how do we

how do we kind of flesh out what's the

right church? What's the right place

ultimately? What's the right doctrine?

So, we've talked about these two tiers.

Uh what were the first two that we

talked about? So the first one was was

orthodoxy and you know we talked about

that being those uh and again the the

example that we used last time was um a

screen as you're trying to screen out if

you'll say gravel and you put a

bucketload of gravel on top of the

screen and you've got holes this what

this what doesn't fit this is what falls

through and that's orthodoxy that's

Jesus Christ the birth uh resurrection

uh death burial return of Christ and

then we got into last week once you have

that then you have all the different

denominations. You have all the

different tier 2 levels of it where um

that second screen becomes we know we're

okay because once we get past the first

screen, we get into what's called the

New Testament church, those that believe

in Jesus Christ, those that are

following it. But that second screen

becomes, you know, what's the

difference? It's a broader base

difference, not to divide us, but allow

us to have conversation, unity together

u you know, as we approach uh this one

today. Yeah. So, so when we start

talking about third tier issues, this is

this one's this one's kind of fun. And

remember when we closed out last time,

we talked about the two um the two

mindsets that people have, which is

important. Separatist versus minimalist.

Separatists are um you've really got to

believe the way that I believe. And if

you don't believe the way that I

believe, then you're wrong and I'm

right. And we're really we're really not

studying scripture for the purpose of

being right or trying to prove someone

wrong. Exactly. Um, but the other side

of that is the minimalist and that's

well none of that stuff really matters.

We all love Jesus. Let's just go sing

songs and and and and wait for Jesus's

return. And that's and that's really not

the right right idea either. And so when

you begin st talking about third tier

issues. These are what we call um

matters of

conscience. Um, anybody got a conscious

about different things? I say of of

course we do, right? And so I mean I I

would give you a a great example right

now in the moment. I had a conversation

this last week um with a brother um who

um in Missouri um they've now made

marijuana legal to smoke. And so the

conversation ultimately boiled down to

um can a believer smoke marijuana

um and still be a Christian and where

does that where does that fall in there?

Now, um, you know, as a pastor and as a

leader of a church, I I probably have a

place that I that I lean into that and

some things in scripture that I that I

find like scripture tells us that we

shouldn't let have anything have

dominion over us, right? And so, if it

causes my mind to um not be able to be

focused, it it alters my my faculties.

Scripture tells us that we should avoid

that those types of things. Um, would

that be a would would that be a second

tier? Would that be a third third ter?

These are matters of conscience. And um

one believer might think that's

perfectly acceptable and another

believer might say, "Well, here's how I

interpret scripture and I I think that's

probably not a good idea." Um you could

say that what falls into into these

categories um might

be your your your position on the

consumption of alcohol, right? And so in

some denominations, in some churches, it

is um alcohol in any format is a sin

whatsoever. And in other ones,

um you know, alcohol is is celebrated as

long as it's done in moderation and it's

not um you know, not made one to be

drunken, then um you know, is that one

who believes that way a brother in

Christ? Is the one that believes that

you can't a brother in Christ? The

answer is yes. They they both really

are. Um, and so we get into some of

those things. And here's where this line

gets difficult

because there are some things that

people want to put in the matter of

conscience block that are that don't

belong in the matter of conscience

block. And that should help us define

ultimately what denomination we want to

belong to and what local church we want

to belong to. Yes. So, I can certainly

worship with one who believes that

drinking alcohol is okay as long as

they're not a drunk not in drunkenness.

And I can uh I can call them a brother

or sister in Christ. Um but there are

others who would say um some of the more

social issues of the day might belong in

that category. Um what do I mean by

those social issues? Um you know um

LGBTQ as a prime example. Well, that's a

matter of conscience. that's that

doesn't affect you. That that that

affects me. And and and then you got to

start asking the question because you're

remember you're looking for a church.

And so if you're looking for a church

and you're looking for a denomination,

there are those that would put those

those items in a fashion that makes them

become a level two issue in how they

worship, in how they um how they

practice the scriptures together as a

church. And then it's not a matter of

conscious. It's not you can choose one

way and I can choose another because

that it's been moved up a tier if that

makes sense. And so we've got to be

careful navigating these particular

issues. But we also got to give a lot of

grace. You know, scripture and a great a

great passage of scripture you can read

is Romans chapter 14 verse 1-12. Um and

Romans 14:1–12

really you could kind of read the whole

chapter of Romans chapter 14. Um, you

Romans 14 · chapter mention

know, I mean, Paul starts out that

passage of scripture with um with uh not

judging the one who is weaker in the

faith. Well, how do we how do we define

that? Um, we define that maybe as not as

mature. So, when we look at scripture,

and we've talked about this in videos

past of spiritual maturity, spiritual

growth, right? Go back and watch some of

those because we all start out as as

babes. When we first come to Christ, we

don't know anything other than Jesus

paid paid for our sins, right? And

that's awesome. Um, but we have to move

from there. And so in moving from there,

Paul says, "Hey, listen. Look, don't

don't don't judge the weaker brother."

Uh, and don't get into disputes over

what what he called in the New King

James called doubtful things. Um, we

call, you know, we would call that

matters of conscience. Um, and then he

begins to define what should you eat.

Well, uh, you think you should only eat

vegetables. I think you can eat meat.

Mhm. I like me a good steak. And trust

me, Scott doesn't just eat vegetables.

He's a meat and potatoes guy. But do I

judge you over the fact that you don't

want to eat meat? And do you judge me

over the fact that I do want to eat

meat? And he begins to kind of just walk

through

um if I don't eat meat, I'm not eating

meat unto the

Lord. And if you don't eat vegetables,

Mhm. you don't eat vegetables unto the

Lord because I'm serving the master and

you're serving the master. Exactly. And

we are brothers. And that's that

defining, you know, we go back to

orthodoxy there, right? That's what that

is. Orthodoxy says we're brothers. These

are matters of conscience that shouldn't

define us and shouldn't divide us.

Exactly. And so, you know, whenever I

think about it, um, if we all go back to

grade school, remember we did the

experiment. I'll use the the the gravel.

I'll go back. If I take a bunch of rocks

that are marble sized, I put them in a

jar with water and I shake it up. It

takes about a second for all the rocks

to fall to the bottom. That's your

orthodoxy. It's easy. It's simple.

Right? You go to the second tier, and

that's more like sand. If I take pure

sand and I shake it up, it takes maybe

15 20 seconds for all the sand to go to

the bottom and it looks real

sedimentary. It's kind of Then you take

a a a jar of or a ball of clay and if

you dissolve clay into water, the

particles are so small, it may take a

week before the water ever becomes clear

again. Right? And that's where as you go

through these things and realize some of

this matters of conscience sometimes the

water remains a little cloudy around

them for a while. And that's really

where Bible study comes into play at is

this is what I believe. Am I going to

try to prove you wrong or am I going to

try to prove the truth right which the

truth is the scripture. What does it say

about all these different things that

you've talked about? How do I deal?

Because that may take a lifetime for

that to become pure purely clear to me.

I mean, we talked about it. My Bible's

got scratches out and your Bible's

getting scratched out. And you know,

what I teach today is not what I taught

6 months ago or a year ago because the

water is constantly getting a little bit

clearer as I work through the matters of

conscience. My rocks have already

settled on the bottom. My sand's on top

of That's right. That that part's done

because I studied that part. Now I'm in

all this fine filtered stuff. And that's

what's exciting to grow is now I'm in

this part. I know where everything else

is. But as a believer, you start with

just letting the rock settle, right? And

you follow that up with letting the sand

settle and then you spend your rest of

your life waiting for the the the

cloudiness to get clear. And by the way,

it doesn't ever purely clear until we

reach the the feet of God. Yeah. No. And

similarly to that, you know, Paul said

we see through a glass darkly. Exactly.

Um and and the idea of that, you know,

is

um that you don't have a clear picture

of some of these things and you won't

until we, as you put it, are face defeat

before Jesus at at his return. Um and

and until then, we we've got to have

some grace in in that particular area.

And I brought up I brought up a more

difficult subject earlier simply to say

that some things don't belong in a third

tier issue. Correct. They really belong

second tier and and first tier. Um and

if we say, oh well, you know, that's

kind of the same way as saying truth is

uh subjective. You know, you have your

truth, I have my truth. What's right for

you is not necessarily right for me. And

if we if we try to lump everything that

we that that we might have disagreement

with in the church into a third tier

issue, then we could be in remember in

the beginning of this series we started,

we talked about these three areas which

are um heresy. Those are the ones that

we would say you don't believe in the

Jesus that is even the Jesus of the

Bible. Therefore, you're not saved and

what you're teaching is not salvific.

Mhm. Um but the other end of that we

call orthodoxy and that's kind of where

we jumped in in the middle of that is

this place that we call error. Um and a

person can get in error in that idea and

ultimately begin to embrace some things

that are

antiscripture. Um they are contrary to

what the word of God teaches. So we need

to be careful that when he says in

Romans chapter 14 when we talk about

Romans 14 · chapter mention

matters of conscience these are what we

would consider gray areas. What do I

mean by that? We see a lot in black and

white. Let me tell you orthodoxy black

and white. There is no gray there. You

if you either believe in the Jesus that

said I am the way, the truth and the

life and no man comes to the father but

by me or you believe in a different

Jesus. Exactly. You either believe that

you can work your way into salvation or

you believe in a different or or or if

you believe that you believe in a

different Jesus. Stumbling around there

that but there are things in scripture

that are matters of conscience. Um I I

would tell you clearly I don't think

it's

wisdom for you to smoke marijuana. I

think scripture tells us not to. But

that's a matter of conscience you're

going to have to flesh out over

stududying. Don't let those things cause

you to travel into

error that causes you to move away from

the faithfulness of scripture and the

faithfulness of orthodoxy by embracing

things and saying, "Well, that's really,

you know, that's right for you and not

right for me." And and and that's not

what those gray areas mean. what

scripture clearly defines is not gray.

No, it's black and it's white. You know,

and here's the thing. If you're watching

this and and you've not been to church

or you're just exploring this or you're

exploring the Christianity piece of

this, here's what you need to

understand. Regardless of where you're

at in your life right now, the doors are

open. That's right. Um, you know, the

doors are open. This is a lifelong

journey, a lifelong study. But the first

part is, you know, opening your Bible,

reading, studying prayer, getting

plugged into a a local church. You know,

we've got comments from from multiple

states on these. We got people viewing

these all across the US now. And and

that's exciting. U so plug yourself into

a local church at that you have put

through this screening process. Talk to

the pastor, talk to the elders, talk to

the find out where that where that

congregation lies on these things. You

know, I am not a perfect person. Carl is

not a perfect person. We both have

issues in our life that we are always

working on. You're not a perfect person.

The church is full of imperfect people

serving a perfect God. That's right. So

don't think you have to walk into Don't

try to get yourself perfect and then

walk in walk into God's house. Walk into

God's house as you are. The old the old

hymn coming just as I am. Walk in just

as you are and let God do the work to

change you through study and learning

and all of these things. So, um, that's

what I encourage you is, you know, we

are in the the weeds, the minutia of it,

of of some of the stuff when we go we

talk about these these matters of

conscience. Don't let that keep you away

because you don't understand all of it,

right? That's a lifelong journey for me.

I'm not there yet. Uh, pastor still

learning it. We're we're journey

together. We talk about it. So, plug

yourself into a local church that

believes that that believes the the

orthodoxy.

find the, you know, study, talk, ask the

pastors, why are you a Southern Baptist?

Why are you a general Baptist or a

different one? Why? And learn it. Let

them explain to you. And that that is

value. Um, and so for me, don't let it

keep you out of church. Don't let you be

perfect. Walk in imperfect just as you

are and let God do the work. Yeah. And

so, so there's a great phrase that we

throw out there, and I'm going to close

with this with this simple phrase. Um

and it's this um you have to belong

before you can become.

Belonging is embracing salvation in

Jesus Christ. What he did for you and

finding the

place that loves you relationally that

that brings you in that is orthodox.

Yes. And then as you grow in spiritual

maturity, you become what scripture

talks about in being a mature Christian.

You don't have to be a mature Christian

before you get to come. Exactly.

Exactly. All right. Well, we'll see

y'all next week. Have a great week.