EP5: Why is Death and Dying a Discipleship Issue?

Hey there, my name is Chris rivers and I want to thank you

for joining us for the grace church members podcast.

The goal of this resource is to address discipleship issues in

the life of Grace Church and discuss how to be more fully

devoted to God in this episode, Scott Mozingo.

And I chat with Matt Kelley, who serves as one of Grace Church

has staff, governing elders, and you can find him also helping

lead worship and some leadership development.

In this particular interview, we have a fascinating discussion

around death, the natural burial process and the opportunity that

we have to care for and disciple members through this unique

season born out of this idea that the church should take care

of its people, not only in life but also in death natural.

Burial is now a practical way for Grace Church to live out

this Principle. As we discussed why this is such

a huge discipleship issue. I got really clear on how I can

move. And share this idea with others

and I'm hoping that you do as well.

Be sure to check out our podcast page at Grace Church.

S c.org /y. Discipleship on this page, you

can access a transcript of this episode and additional resources

to help you move. Okay let's jump into our episode

with Matt Kelly on why death and natural.

Burial is a discipleship issue. Well Matt good to see you today.

Scott was ancient good to see you.

Hey Chris, yeah we're going to have a Conversation about some

topics that a lot of people have been asking about.

I was at the lake this past weekend, at my dad who doesn't

live. Here comes up to me and says we

sit at the table he says hey man I hear y'all are burying people

and I was like, yes, exact razy actually got to talk about

natural burial this weekend. Like it was really great.

What are we doing as a church? Yeah.

So several years ago we just start a conversation about what

does it look like for us to be able to take care of people and

not just Life, but also through death and burial.

We knew that we were trying to disciple people from birth until

the grave, but once we got to the Grave, we were not involved

and we felt like that was something that we needed to

explore. And it was a lot of steps that

happen with our church at the same time.

But we just decided that we needed to take some steps to

save. The someone need to be a part

of. And so we did a lot of research

and really honed in on an idea of something on natural burial,

which means it's simple. Its natural exactly.

What You think it is? It's no embalming.

The Vault, no casket. You're basically put in a pine

box or a shroud and you are returned.

It's very simple process and so it's been something that we are

just now dabbling in. We're on year one of this but it

has seemed to be a great discipleship tool for us and

something that we're learning from every day.

Yeah, every step of this way. So map, a lot of people know you

as worship It goes hand-in-hand with your work with do a lot of

work with our young staff in addition to that.

Yeah, maybe they don't really think about you in this role,

right? You've had some real formative

personal experiences and you talk a little bit about why you

how you got in this game. Yeah yeah so I mean I think

seven or eight years ago, our church did a series on death and

if the same time we were looking at that and we did a series on

that and then we also saw a a documentary on 60 Minutes about

something called natural. Burial had never really heard

that but saw that and kind of piqued her interest in the my

dad who was a pastor in Seneca for a long time.

He's now retired. He was a part of a burial at a

place called Ramsey Creek up in Westminster and he came home and

he buried, actually, a friend of mine that I grew up with that

died, early. And as he got home, and he

started explaining it to me about the men, they're taking

their jackets off all working together, Barry and Matthew

doing all that. His he described it to me when

he got done talking about it. I was like, yeah, that's weird.

Like I say this is weird and he goes actually he goes that was

very different but it was extremely helpful for Crawford,

who was the dad, burying his son, he goes.

And that moment Crawford had all these men around him.

They were all part of the process.

He said, we all six men were standing around Berry and

Matthew. So there were Parts where we

laughed. We cried, we talked about

Matthew, we were able to console Crawford.

He said it was a very communal time and I thought in the moment

I was like, okay, that's the church, that's what we've been

missing. That's the piece that is very

intriguing is to we're in a really dark grief, sometimes,

dark sometimes joyful, but a grieving time, the church is

there and the people that you've done live with our they're

celebrating and crying and remembering and all the people

that you want with them. They're an active participant in

that piece and that was the thing that really caught my

mind. Yeah.

So that personal story was really catalytic for you.

It was personally This has been a long process.

We've been working on this as a church.

Yeah, I think that, I think I had that conversation.

My dad 78 years ago. It just started as digging and

we met with. We just thought we would look

for some land. We thought we would try to see

what it looks like to possibly buy some acreage, and we learned

a lot about the burial process. We've learned a lot about the

state South Carolina and learned learned a lot about that.

And then we actually talk to the people at Ramsey Creek, in

Westminster Kimberly, and Billy, they were the pioneers of

natural burial. Or green burial timed in the US.

And the right here in EPs and they're in Westminster South

Carolina and they are huge proponents and wonderful people

to work with and a great resource and saved us from a

thousand troubles. I'm doing this, we'll come back

to them in just a second because I think there's an interesting

distinction between maybe what we're doing and what they're

doing, this will help our audience.

Yeah. But the thing about story.

Described the process. Like, what happens when someone

passes away? Yeah, done this a few times now

we have. So what just help people And how

it's not weird. So currently if someone passes

away, they contact our church and our care Department kicks

into gear, which is who they are.

They're great. I Jennifer deal.

Sarah, Brandon Lee Ann cabin that crew gets to work.

If someone passes away they call us and then we tell them

currently we have a partnership with Palmetto Mortuary and right

now, they are the partner that is able to pick up the body

transport. You do have to have a burial

transport permit. There are pieces we're not able

to do currently. They were very happy to partner

with us and so they go pick the body up store with us for

however long we need, you need to do natural burial.

Within five days is about as far as you go because the minute you

die, 20 minutes your body starting to Decay.

Yeah. So they do store the body in a

freezer for us and then they transport the body to the burial

area for us. We dig the hole we have

volunteers currently that go out and dig the hole and get

everything ready. And get the area ready and set

and then Palmetto delivers the body for us and then we put it.

And then when the family gets there, the body is there, it is

laying on boards, kind of over the whole.

And then what happens is during the during the service, it's for

the family gets involved. They actively lower the body

into the ground. They put dirt on and that's

where you see family. And the last one I saw,

grandchildren bearing, the grandma.

We've had tons of people just write notes on the pot, Box on

the time volunteers are making these boxes.

That's right. Yeah volunteers are making the

boxes. I mean, it is a very active

thing for people in our church, their active participants of

burial. This isn't for everybody.

We're just saying this is an option right in some situations.

I've heard when someone dies, the funeral home comes in and

then they just feel like their loved one is just kind of gone

and we wanted to bring that back in where you are.

Actively you feel like you were taking care of people that you

have done life. So people might think probably

the close proximity Is Graveside service, right?

Kind of intimacy at the burial site, right?

But this is even more intimate than all of that you live on the

bodies in the ground. I mean, a lot of times that

funerals I've been to when the service is over you leave and

then they lower the body and you are actively returning them to

dust, right? You're the active participant

at. So how did we get to this point?

What's changed over the last couple of decades?

Where it feels like like the church has gotten further

disconnected from the burial process.

I think just as a natural consequence of there are some

business pieces that have happened over the years and

there's some pieces where we don't understand what to do.

So we've hate to say I was arrested in some ways, right?

But we don't really know what to do professionals at doing this.

It's a been a great service to people, but we did feel like for

us. And it was one thing that

Kimberly from Ramsey Creek, really challenged us on when we

were in the room with her, she goes, I mean, This is actually

what you're supposed to do. Meaning the church, the church.

She gets the church's. Y'all believe in this.

Ya'll believe in taking care of people.

All the way to the end. She goes y'all believe in

Resurrection. This should be the church.

This should be what the church is about.

And I remember when she said that, I was like, man, you're

right? That is the true answer.

And I think that is something that is clicked for me.

And for the people that have been a part of it so far is that

this is what we as the church or supposed to be doing.

We're supposed to be we're not supposed to release this.

Peace, once we get to it, we're supposed to be all hands on deck

for the next five days. This is when we're a lie to you,

we rallied to you every other time there's a grief or tragedy

in your life, why would you not do it in Death?

Yeah. You know I'm saying right?

So I think that's the thing that's gotten clear to us is

it's a great rallying point for us in that too.

So a nice little gentle rebuke from the folks at ramsbury,

Chris. Yeah, I mean very catalytic.

It really was. And she and she didn't say in

the meantime, she was just like, I mean, of all people.

Believe in this one of the things is that we have

integrated. I thought process of burial and

our minds that we don't even know why.

We think that we question what we've done for hundreds of years

and now in the last hundred years, the game has changed.

It's a fine thing. But now when I present it to

people, there likes weird, why are we doing that?

So even friend of mine, who's a pastor Mississippi, he and I

were talking about it when night, he was tell me what

you're working on. Is like, well, I've been working

on this thing called Or burial. And he's a, what does that?

And I told him and he after about two minutes is like I

think in Mississippi, you have to be involved.

I think it's a law as like I guarantee.

It's not as like I live in South Carolina.

You live in Mississippi. I guarantee.

It's not and he goes, no, I think it is.

I was like, I bet it's not. And so I got an email from him

at 3:00 a.m., and he just all the email said was, it's not a

long Mississippi, monk. So, he just said, I went to work

and started researching and his point was to me later on, He's

like I assumed things that had to be done and I didn't know and

so I was just like this what you have to do.

He said so like I'm not we're not even educated and we've

integrated things into our lives that we haven't even root truly

thought through and just adopted.

And I think of anything just allows her people just to think

and asks a questions about it and then once again interact

with the death process, the burial process.

That's one thing that I think it's a real disruptive idea that

Oranges those assumptions in an area that people don't want

think about. So it's fine.

I'll just do whatever you tell me to do and I'll pay the money

because I really don't want to engage.

Yeah, the whole day. I don't want to think about

death, right? And that was Ramsay.

Creaks point is, this is actually what y'all believe in

this is your point that your point is, this is when y'all are

game, time is in the death process and y'all believe this

more than anybody. And so we've a little bit

separate herself from something that we say, we fully put our

trust in her home. In.

And so it's a little bit of a disconnect that we want to bring

back together and reconnect. This explain the difference

between what they're doing as a relates to Creation care.

That's a part of it. Yeah, probably.

So we have three big reasons why just kind of go through those

reasons why this is really beneficial for our church.

Yeah, I mean there are different areas and they get real

technical. There's a difference between

natural burial and green burial. There's different regulations

that go on without. There's a different regulations

that go with creating a cemetery.

There's are all things that I've learned natural means you're

returning, green means there's certain things that you're

trying to do with the land. That there's some conservation

things that you're working on some of it has to do around the

way, your bearing or the way, you are preserving, the land and

ours is not real around that ours is more around the care of

our people and I don't think there's one more than the other.

It's just they have a very different focus on what they're

doing and what they're doing is great and if we didn't have

this, that's where I'd want to be.

Great is it Ramsey Creek, but we are being a little bit more

utilitarian to disciple are people.

So they're heavy on the environmental Environmental

Conservation. Yes.

And we'll talk more about the care for the body.

Talk about the cost. That is a.

Yeah, that's part of it. Yeah, one of the main things

that we looked at was right now, the average, which I would say

is not at your average, is about 10 grand in South Carolina,

which I've not heard of one being 10 grand in well, but

that's what's if you Google it, that's the Google.

But we are looking right now at 2000 to 2500 dollars.

So if we have 6,000 members I mean think about that.

Think about the savings of 8,000, we bury 6,000 people over

the next 50, 60 years. Think about the money, they get

saved to do ministry that you're not putting money in the ground

and it's just a I'm not trying to say it's a financial win but

it does help you think about if you believe that you can't carry

this with you. Then there is a piece of the

yeah, it's a stewardship. It is a straight stewardship

issue where you're just like, okay, I can do this.

I believe that I'm not here. I'm going to spend this amount

of money to get this done at the same time that deploys resources

for other ministry, right? It is a financial stewardship

issue. In a major way, there's the

environmental piece, there's the financial stewardship piece.

Those are two are secondary to the the piece that you've been

talking about quite a bit, which is just the care for one another

as church members, right? Tell us.

It's a little bit so we've been actively burying.

Yeah, for about six months. Yeah, and we closed on the land

and summer of 2021 and we thought we would bury one person

this year. I would say, through next.

Summer is like I will probably want what buried, I think, we

buried five. So it's made us, think about a

lot and we've been busier than we don't.

So what have you as far as this benefit of the church discipling

families. All the way through the burial

process. Us.

What have you seen? Have you seen that?

Really be a benefit. Well one of the very first ones

was a member in Spartanburg his father passed away and his small

group, his group of men and his small group helped bury his dad.

And one of the small group leaders called me or texted me

on the way home and was like, Hey, when y'all first started

talking about this, I was like me.

What are we doing? This is weird.

He said, but I gotta tell ya. He said I've never been a part

of anything. What I did today.

He said, if you have anybody have any questions, you send

them Spartanburg. He goes, we got a group of men

out here that are fully on Bored because they were actively

taking care of that man in Spartanburg who just lost his

dad and he was like, I've never been able to in a tactile way be

able to take care of somebody in that moment, the way I did.

And so we've seen that we've seen people riding them boxes,

just writing notes, people that I haven't had anybody returned

from one of the burials out there and not be affected or

seen the church rally like it and really a lot of them.

Die words. They're just like man, I've

never seen. Thing like that but I like it.

They say it feels right. It feels like what we're

supposed to be doing. When you go out there, talk to

us a little bit about the physical.

What is the price look like? Yeah, this little bit about.

Yeah, firemen right. Well, it's 12 acres.

It was an old tree farm and so there's still lots of Holly's

out there. And so, it's a little bit of a

mixture of field. Some tree area where there's

still lots of trees and look at reform area.

And then there is a really nice cool pasture where we're bearing

currently. We are the next person in line.

You're not getting plots, you're not.

Hey, here's, I'd like to be buried on this tree picking your

spot. No, you're really nice.

This is very different. We're not selling pre pretty

silly. No, I'd like to not do that.

So, yeah, we're burying kind of in a row and people always ask

their like wool, how do you know that you're not bearing on

somebody else? And we do have a software that

Maps out where people are and then you can go to that

software. It will basically give you a GPS

of where that person is buried. And actually when you type in

the GPS, it'll tell you there will be two area if you want to

read it through and stuff like that.

I mean, all that's not fully set up.

That is stuff that's we're working on right now on.

And then we will continue to bury out there.

We've had to do a lot of land kind of planning, which is why

we tried to slow, play a little bit because we've had to kind of

re-establish. A rework, some roads that were

already there. There are some holes that from

the tree farm that we've had to just we just did a lot of work

in the last two weeks and so you can drive by it, not even know

it's there but it's It is not a fancy.

It's not groomed the graves, are there.

There is grass that has grown up around them and but there are

lots out there or there, or they marked.

Yeah, they are Mark. There's a little stone with the

name and the birth date, and the burial and the death date, and

that's it. Probably in a couple of years.

The way the earth works, the stones will, they'll be gone.

We're not preserving any of that.

It's marked right now and you can go find it, but it might be

at some point that those just the Earth Eats a stone.

That's kind of how we set it up as we were thinking about this

podcast and particular, we're trying to focus on the why, why,

why do we, why is this important?

So, I mean, what would you want someone to think about God and

Creation in all of this? Yes, well, I'm saying about that

this morning and I was reminded of Ecclesiastes which tells us

we return to dust. I was reminded that we say this

Earth is not our home and we can't carry it with us.

So, I was thinking about those two things and then I was

thinking about, I believe in the resurrection, I believe in those

things that don't make me. Hold onto this world a man.

It's hard because I love this world.

I struggle to not want to call this world, my home and at the

same time when I go out there, I am reminded that this is looking

for something in the future that actually will be way more

rewarding and if I believe all those things then I won't hold.

The things and I'll be okay. We're just saying you know?

However, you'll need to bury me under my control.

I'm good, I'm good for us to roll with this, you know, and

I'm good for my resources to be left my family to do ministry.

I'm good for you, not to spend a lot of time and go back.

And have to remember me a bunch because I'm actually not there.

And so there are a lot of those things that just feels unique to

me. The other things you need to me,

is that it's going to be a unique place where People that

we have all done Ministry with, for a long time.

We're going to be buried together.

They're one of my volunteers, that was digging holes for me.

He's the one that actually brought that up.

He said, when I got done digging that hole the other day, I was

out there and he said I just thought in the moment, he's a

young guy, 25, two, young kids, and actually 28.

But two young kids and he's like man I just was thinking the

other day, he goes men and women that I have done Ministry with.

I'm gonna be buried with these people right here and I never

really understood Church cemeteries hundred-year-old

Archie sees Church, cemeteries laid out there.

And I was like, why did they do that?

But it's because the church used to handle, right?

Death and Burial at the family. The family have a family plot.

You have all the family together.

Your church was an active participant in that and it's a

little bit of returning to that returning.

To again, this is why this is important for us as a church.

So, there's a care component, being able to really love each

other all the way to the very end.

There is a connection to the temporal nature of this world.

Yeah. And then I love what you said

about the resurrection of just being able to look forward to

something. And it feels like if we

disconnect, if we pull up, just short in the burial process of

taking it all the way to the end, that maybe we miss some of

those key markers that really connect us to God.

That is, that is so true. It is something where if you

look at the ministry we're doing it did feel like a disconnect

for us that we were getting to a certain point even as we that

strives that Julie Eldred has With seen your honor.

Then once we get past that, then what do you do?

Are we as a church obsolete, then I just did not feel right

to us. Right?

So we felt like we needed to have a part of it.

Yeah, it feels like a real healthy.

Correction of some unintended consequence.

Yeah, have just developed over the last several decades.

As we're all a lot more transient, we don't have the

small rural church with the cemetery plot like this for my

screw-up with that's right. And this has brought a topic

back into our mind, but I think is really great.

Great, right? And I mean the thing is whenever

somebody comes to us, we always tell them.

This is an option. We're not saying hey, you got

our church, you got to do this because for some people, it's

okay. It's just an option is something

that we want to give them an option to do.

Yeah. Yeah.

So what do people do, if they want to find out more if they

have questions, if they're interested in volunteering?

Yeah, it's interesting. We had a meeting the other day

with just an initial meeting with about a little over 50

people that came. It said hey we want to volunteer

everyone from working on the land because the land has to be

but shocked every six weeks and grass cut and real tactile

things like that to. We have a group that is

currently building our caskets. We have a group that is making

sure routes currently we have not buried anybody in a shroud

but that is an option and is your over there.

Either way. They should probably just reach

out to Jennifer deal who's in charge of our care.

She has been collecting all those people.

And then we've got Volunteers running all that.

We've got volunteers, running the casket building, we got a

volunteer run in the Shroud building we got volunteers

digging holes. I mean, it is, it is people

that, I mean I had a guy the other day just say, hey, thank

you for letting me serve this way.

I'm getting to serve people and I didn't know this was going to

be it, but this has been real rewarding for me, which I

thought was an interesting take on what he was saying.

And that's another way they answer the.

Why question? Chris, that's another reason why

this is important, is it brings in all these volunteers draw.

Them in closer to their Devotion to God, by being able to serve

people in some unique ways. That's right, that's right.

Yeah. That idea of being able to do

that with just a handful of other men that I know, and I'm

getting to serve a family that has lost someone or I'm having

my very close friends, help me navigate a very hard season.

I remember my brother passed away many, many years ago, and

that was just difficult for a family that loses a small.

A child or a grandparent or this is an option for them to not

just a financial stewardship option.

But it's also just a chance to Rally together and care for one

another in a unique way that we don't always have a chance to do

that, and you can get plugged into community group, you can do

life with people and you can get to know people and those are

great things. And I think this is another way

for us to rethink what it looks like for us to serve one another

absolutely in a very, very difficult space.

That's right. The two young guys right now

that have dug our Graves for us. They do not know the people, I

call them and I'm like, hey, we had somebody passed away in our

church. The funeral is going to be in

four days and a day later, I'll just get a picture of the whole

duck. There's no questions there.

Just like we are just serving the people are just serving

whoever this family is, we don't need a bunch of details.

We're ready to go. Yeah, and it's a unique thing.

Yeah it is. I remember Matt Williams when we

first started talking about some of this, he told a story to us.

Some staff and he mentioned, you know, he's trying to cast a

vision and capture our imagination is just imagine a

couple that is newlywed and very young in their marriage and

loses. Their child, think about the

challenge that, that could be for them financially.

Think about the challenge, this is a chance for us as a people

to Rally around a couple like this sin and to do something

that it. No one would.

I mean, that's amazing. I mean, I remember what he told

me that story and I was just imagined the way that we can

love people really well. And I'm just really excited to

see what happens as we do this month after month, year after

year. And we have maybe you could I

know you shared the first person that passed away and buried.

But have we buried children have?

I mean, could you talk a little bit more about that or how?

Because we have other people that we bear we do we have not

buried any children yet, it's all been people that are later

and seasons in life which for all those a lot of them have

been a little bit of a rejoicing.

Yeah it's the time of suffering is over.

And so those have not been as I mean I would say as tragic.

Yeah. But that's still been unique in

a different kind of Celebration. We have talked about like I said

we have 12 acres, we have talked about setting up an area,

possibly for a young life, lost a stillborn, a memorial or

having an area to walk through something like that.

And that's something an idea that we're looking at in the

future. Once we get our feet under

syllabus more, what we're doing, I mean death.

And on all forms. It's not just it's not just the

end and so we want to be ready for all of them.

If we can just looking forward, somewhat going to have a chapel

and put a chapel, we do, we would like to have a chapel out

there. Like I said, we have the land

for it. We have some equipment out there

that has some people have been real gracious with us and

donated, some very nice equipment for us to work the

land. But the next thing we do need is

we probably need a chapel Barn structure for us to have a

service. We would love and it's great.

It's not far from our Provost or camp.

It's so we're able to do a service there if we need to and

then come out there. But if we could have one area

for people to Rally to and do a little service and then do the

burial, it would be the ideal that we would want.

If you're listening, that's not something you're interested in

talking to and helping with Kelly.

But yeah, conversation love to have a conversation with you.

Matt commission us as leaders. For those of us in this

audience, how would you want us to speak about natural barrier

of someone asked us about this? Of course.

Now they have a resource. That they can have a

conversation with Rod, but how would you want us to speak about

this? What would be some tips or just

some things to equip us and having conversation with people

about this, I think one of the ideas is that the idea around we

want to be we want to be discipling are people from birth

into death. We want to be a part of every

stage of life and all the way into death.

And so I think that's that's a little bit of a different

language. We always talk about discipling

people in your thinking about during the lifetime but One of

the major things you can do to disciple, the family is help

them bury their loved ones. And I think that was something

that we were not a part of that, we aren't saying that we have it

all figured out but we knew we needed at least take a step and

get in the game and that's what this is.

It's another way to disciple. Our people, we're disciple, are

people that are losing their loved ones.

And then the people that get to serve are being discipled,

there's the part of it. Yes.

So I had a guy that's building caskets for us right now and he

wrote down crying the other night.

Just told me. Thank you for him building

caskets. He was grateful that he got to

be a part of it and he does not know these people.

He is just doing it to serve them and he was he called me

crying talking about it and I was like meant.

Thank you. You're the one actually serving

these people and you're thanking me for the opportunity.

I was like you're the one actually doing the work but the

thing is that guy's being discipled like there's something

happening God's working in his heart, the way way, this is

going where he is getting to serve people with nothing in

return. He's just getting ready to help

these people in a very dark time, and he's grateful for it

and God's using that to the disciple him.

So Chris, it seems like death is something, obviously, it's an

uncomfortable topic. It is.

And it feels like it's something that to be endured.

And I think just changes the conversation because it's

inevitable. It's not something that has to

be feared. If you are a follower of Jesus

and believe in the resurrection, believe in the new heavens and

new earth, so it seems like it's an opportunity to reclaim and

Something back and disciple, and help people Embrace, instead of

indoor, that's give anything. So, the point, I think that the

church, you know what, I hear Matt say is the church,

normalizing the conversation and actually bringing the truth and

the hope that we all talked about.

But this is like a physical embodiment different way of

expressing that hope which I think is going to be real

powerful for our church. Yeah.

Ever, how long we get to do it? That's right.

Yeah. Well man, this has been great.

Matt appreciate it. I mean, is there anything else

you want to leave with? Us know, I'm grateful for this

opportunity and I'm excited about how this disciples are

people in future. I mean that's what it is.

Really that's great. Well thanks again.

Thank you. Thanks Matt.

Thank you. Well as we wrap up today's

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