EP7: Why is Recovery a Discipleship Issue?

Welcome back or to the grace church members podcast, I'm one

of your host, Chris rivers. And in this episode I'm joined

by my co-host. Scott Mozingo and Jim Taylor to

focus on why recovery at Grace Church is a discipleship issue.

Jim Taylor has a unique pastoral story and wears a couple hats at

Grace Church in the area of care and recovery and our teaching

team. And I got to say during this

interview, I was completely speechless.

I felt that is Scott and Jim discussed this topic.

I couldn't keep up as I took notes.

So I'm very grateful. We are able to record this.

So, like yourself, I could replay it in terms of this

episode to help set the tone. I think it's important to

mention that. We all have an innate sense that

the world is not the way, it should be.

As Believers, we recognize, there is only one thing we have

lost and that is our relationship with the Creator.

God created us to be in an unhindered relationship with him

and each other and he's placed eternity in our hearts and made

a way for our relationship with him too.

Stored as we navigate this interview, I think this idea

will be a helpful lens for us to look through for this

conversation. And if you're a first-time

listener, we're excited that you've joined us.

The goal of this resource is to address discipleship issues in

the life of Grace Church and discuss how to be more fully

devoted to God. So be sure to check out our

podcast page at Grace Church. S c.org /y discipleship.

And on this page you can access a summary of this episode and

additional resources to help. Help you move towards

discipleship. Okay, let's jump into this

episode with Scott and Jim on. Why recovery is a discipleship

issue? Jim Taylor, tell us a little bit

about how long you been on staff.

How you got here? And what are you doing now?

Yeah, well started in 2006. So coming up on 17 years on

staff now and when I started was not a pastor was not qualified

to be a pastor. I was an addict a liar.

Maybe later terrified, to be honest with people and the

church was much smaller than and desperate for somebody that knew

how to work on computers and make videos.

So they agreed to pay me. And through that process of me

coming on staff and getting connected to people, here, just

had a couple of pastors care about me.

Some of my sin got exposed. I was actually addicted to

pornography and terrified to be honest about that.

And and really over the course of about two and a half years,

was really the first time that somebody saw me for who I really

was. I was an addict.

I was liar as a manipulator. I was fearful and still loved me

and trying to help me now. I think that could have happened

earlier in my life but because I wasn't willing to be honest,

nobody ever really had the opportunity So God was

discipling me, you know, through my work and which is not why I

took the job, right? He had other plans.

So really after I started to be honest and work through my own

recovery, there was no we didn't have region then there was no

12-step process for that. Well I mean other than like

essay or something but within the church just kind of

one-on-one discipleship, right? No being exposed learning how to

deal with. Sin, and a lot of it at the

beginning, you know, in in Christianity, we talk a lot

about the heart and behavior. And what's the relationship

between those two things? But, honestly, for where I was,

I just had to start obeying and disciplining myself in some ways

and then my heart became accessible.

My heart wasn't really accessible because I think I was

enslaved. So the word recovery.

Is maybe a new word for some folks.

So I'm going to guess that 13 years ago.

Recovery was probably not in your vocabulary.

So how have you come to understand recovery and what do

you want Grace Church members to really know when they say the

word recovery? Yes, a few.

If you look up the word recovery in Webster's what you're going

to find is one definition of be like returning to a normal

State, you know, of Health. Talking about the Mind or

strength, it's used in the athletic world.

You know, if there's an injury going to go through recovery,

we're going to rebuild get that shoulder working right?

Again, or right, whatever, or regaining possession or control

of something that's been lost or stolen, you know, as how that

word is defined, which, you know, if we go by that

definition, everybody's in recovery and the and I think

that's true. And I, the reason I think that's

true is because, as Hannity, we've all experienced loss, not

just personal loss, like some of us have lost people, some of us

have lost status or wealth, or sanity, or health is something,

but but speaking, as Humanity as a whole, like Humanity has lost

something. And if we go back to the

earliest chapters of scripture, you know, God created people to

be in a nun, hindered relationship.

Ship with himself and with each other you know we read in

Genesis that Adam and Eve knew each other, there was no shame

at that time. They would walk with God in the

cool of the day and perfect Fellowship.

There was no lying, there was no sin.

There was no evil. That nothing was hindered.

The Earth would just obey them, you know if they wanted to

cultivate it and produce something.

So that's how God created Humanity to have control to Rule

and have dominion and have perfect fellowship with him and

with each other. And that's what we've lost.

And I really think that everybody in that sense is in

recovery and seeking recovery. We just all disagree on what's

been lost and how to get it back.

How do we think about recovery? And then a word that people may

be more familiar with which is redemption.

Think about how this tool Works go together.

Yeah, yeah. And I think here's what's,

here's, what's fascinating about the story of scripture, right?

God is redeeming, but if you read through Genesis, when he

created the world, he says everything's good.

That's the word, he uses good. But if you read the end of the

scriptures, like, if you go to Revelation, I don't think we're

just returning to what was. I think it's an upgrade, right?

It's Garden. Plus it's is moving from good to

perfect, right? Where we know that sin and some

form existed after God created the world.

Before Adam and Eve sinned like Satan evil existed, right?

Because of his Rebellion but ultimately even that's going to

be dealt with and what we see in Revelation is Heaven and Earth

are united. So Redemption is you know part

of that process. God is buying back right?

He's redeeming bringing back but we're not just recovering what's

been lost? Like it's even better.

I think that's where Paul says in Romans 8, you know the

suffering. As of this present life are not

even worthy to be compared with the glory that will be revealed

in us later. And he talks about, you know

eyes, he quotes Isaiah Eye Has Not Seen ear, has not heard, it

hasn't even entered into the heart of man.

The things that God has prepared for those that love him.

So to me, you know, we're all kind of on this process, we all

are seeking what's been lost? And then ultimately, there's

going to be a day coming. We're all that is not just

restored in return, but so much more, so Jim you're talking

about recovery. Wanting to get back something

that's lost, but the world. Having different ideas on how to

do that. Does that resonate with your

own? Your own story?

Yeah, sure. And I think that's pretty

common, right? We all have this innate sense.

I mean, this is where Ecclesiastes 3 says, eternity is

in our hearts. Like there's a there's just a

piece built into every person that knows whether you're a

Christian or not, it doesn't matter.

Everyone knows the World is not the way it should be we all have

that sense right. And I think then life

necessarily becomes this journey of well how do I make it?

What it should be. We all have this longing.

We have this idea. It's where we get our sense of

morality and Justice. It's why we have laws.

It's like, hey, things are not good.

We all know that. And how do we make them?

Good. How we get back, right?

How do we recover? What's missing?

What's What's the key to a lot? I mean, it's just true in every

society. It's true in every culture.

It's true in every person. And so that's where I think

everybody begins to kind of take their own recovery journey of

you. See it all the time when kids

are wounded by their parents, what do they do?

They the pendulum swings and they go the opposite way, right?

And they parent completely differently than their parents

do right? Or you'll have a generation that

sacrifices a lot and Tries to protect their children from a

bunch of pain and so then you know that the pendulum swings

the other way and it just it goes back and forth all the

time. He wrote people are always

seeking how to get back what's been lost.

So, for me, personally, just from some of the pain in my own

life, I mean, I tried all kinds of different Avenues.

I mean, I tried, you know, different drugs.

I tried alcohol and tried, you know, illicit sex and then

eventually landed on pornography, you know, and

understanding things. About eight years later is

because I could kind of maintain one facade, right?

Look the way I wanted to look but also within a few moments,

have something that felt like it made the world work, the way it

should work like so I could be obeyed the way I wanted to be

obeyed. I could be served the way I

wanted to be served. I could feel in charge, not out

of control, whatever. I mean there's all that sense,

right? So if you think about it in that

way, you know the world will tell.

You look, if you get a An amount of money if you get a certain

amount of power. If you achieve this, if you

accomplish this, that's what will recover what's been lost?

Now, as Believers, we know, that's not true, right, right?

Because what we've really lost is unhindered fellowship with

the Creator with the god of the universe.

And so, here's what, you know, if you read through the book of

First, John book of First, John ends in chapter 5 verse 21, he

says, little children, keep yourself away from it.

Anything that might take God's place in your hearts.

And so here's here's the strange reality of all that is we all

have some kind of place in our hearts, that that's where God

fits. That's where he should be at the

top. He should be at the center,

that's what we really want, right?

But we have a tendency to fill it with anything and everything

and so the strange irony of that is whatever you whatever you put

in your life in that God place. That is the thing that loses all

boundaries. It just grows completely wild

and takes over right? Because that's what God has to

do. Right God by his very nature is

an infinite being which means he has no boundaries his no needs.

There's no end to him that he's not contained, right, right.

So, if I take a finite thing and I put that in a place of that

supposed to be for a Something infinite.

Well, then that finite thing. Loses all boundaries and takes

infinite characteristics. That's right.

It takes over it grows. And so, then somebody ends up

doing things that they never thought they would do.

They commit heinous crimes or sinful Acts or they lie and

deceive and their whole life gets better.

I mean, it's what you see with every addiction.

Right, and it doesn't, I'm not just talk about drugs and

alcohol, but people can be addicted to power, they can be

addicted to victimhood. You know, they can be addicted

to some kind of status. They, they can be addicted to

their own rightness, their own way of thinking.

I mean, it can be, it can be anything, but, whatever that

thing is, if it's not God, it will take over your life and it

will grow out of control. And so, we just see that happen

with everybody, and part of the beauty of the Gospel, is it,

when everything gets out of whack like that, it brings

restoration because it actually brings the thing that we were

most craving are Deepest need, you know this is what Jesus says

in John 17:3. He says this is eternal life

John 17:3

that they know you father and the one whom you sent Jesus

Christ. That's eternal life.

Eternal life is not something that starts after people put my

body in the ground, Eternal Life Starts Now, right?

It's a, it's an unhindered. I mean, the crazy reality is,

everyone could have unhindered fellowship with their creator

and live in harmony with other people that's available now.

That's the amazing truth of the Gospel is even though I am a

sinner and I still sin because of the work of Jesus, I can

actually have an unhindered, a completely unhindered

relationship with the creator of the universe right now.

Yeah, I think about second Peter 1 by his divine power, God has

given us everything we need for life and godliness, not eternal

life. Even in the way that we think

about the future. Like we're in a right

relationship with God, were Justified.

So we die. We go to heaven.

That's that's not what he thought he might be talking

about that, but he's talking about a lot more rice.

Talking about exactly what you're talking about in the

here. And now we can do that because

of God's Great and precious promises, it goes on to say and

his divine power within us. And so what we seem to have

lacking is a view that God wants something more for us than we

can even imagine. Yeah, and it would be terrible.

If God said this is my desire for you but then he didn't give

us, the means to him. Push it right but he does give

us the means to accomplish it by his Holy Spirit by his Word

Fellowship of Believers. And so it seems like the idea of

recovering something in recognizing the impediments, the

obstacle, the enemy that addiction can bring is part of

us. Realizing how to get there.

Is that fair? Yeah.

And so, you're asking us as a congregation To have a bigger

View and expanded view of recovery that is, is maybe not

just the traditional view, as you've already stated and then a

more expanded view of addiction. Yeah.

Which so, what's the, how does that work?

As far as in your experience? If people are willing to go down

this journey with you so now you get to teach and you get to lead

people and we'll talk about specific ministry here in a

minute. But do you find that?

That is a hard sell for folks. To identify themselves as

addicts based on whatever, preconceived notion that they

have, what that means. I think it's an obstacle and I

mean, here's the thing, there's Pride on both sides.

Okay. Yeah, explain that.

We're all prideful people, right?

So, I may find myself in one season of life and I hear about

the 12 steps or recovery or regen or whatever it is, and I

go, oh, that's for those people, right?

That's not for me. I'm not addicted to anything.

I might think that, which is a form of Pride, right?

Right. But, Cuz this is addiction is

just another term for what the Bible calls idolatry and that's

what it is. That's a good, that's a good

decision. And if you read the Old

Testament, I mean that's what the Old Testament is about is

just about God offering himself redeeming.

A people calling them to himself saying you can be in a

relationship with me and here's what that looks like and then

them putting in false substitutes for that right?

And how it destroys them and he Out of love has to bring

discipline on them, not because he's needy, like that's part of

what it means to be God, he doesn't, he has no needs, right?

It's not that he's insecure or needs a bunch of people to

worship him in a firm him. Here's what I used to say, I

used to say, God doesn't care about your happiness, he cares

about your Holiness. That's what I used to sit heard

that before. And and I realized over time,

like, that is probably not true. Because how can you have an

Enoch relationship with anyone who doesn't care about your

happiness, that doesn't really work, right then, we're not

really talking about a relationship.

We're talking about slaves, right?

You know, so then I started saying, well, God cares, more

about your Holiness and about your happiness, or I would say,

God is not a dream killer, but he cares, more about your

Holiness in about your dreams, and then I heard Matt Williams

preach one time. And he said, hey, joy and

happiness of the same things. I remember the same sermon.

Yeah. And I was like, look up start

over. Okay.

Yeah, that destroys that Logical statement, right?

And so here's what I say now. God cares about your happiness,

but he knows that your ultimate happiness or joy is impossible

apart from Holiness. So what did he do?

He's been working for Millennia to make a way for Unholy people

to be holy so that they can be in fellowship with him because

he knows your happiness is tied to a relationship with him.

So he's going to go to Great expense and sacrifice himself

and Suffer in this world and walk the path that we have to

walk to make that happen. Which is an incredible thought.

And that's that's where, you know, we talk a lot about

worship but Jesus never once said worship me but he did say

follow me. And so the amazing thing is we

have this God who doesn't just sit up in heaven, aloof apart

from our suffering, ready to press the Smite button.

He actually did exactly the opposite, he did the unthinkable

humbled himself. Became a man and walked the

difficult path and actually navigated this broken World

perfectly. Like we've never been able to

do. I've never even come close to

that not even a day, not even a day, not even an hour, right?

He navigated this broken World perfectly and yet took all that

Injustice. Anyway, it's an amazing thought.

So that somehow and I don't understand how this is the case

but somehow you know you read passage like Ian's to which God

has taken Jesus. He's given Jesus name above

every other name, so that the name of Jesus every knee will

bow. Every tongue will confess, you

know, in heaven and on Earth and under the Earth to the glory of

God, the father, right? He's given him a unique name.

We read in Revelation chapter 19, there's a name written on

Revelation 19 · chapter mention

him. That no one knows except himself

like he's exalted Jesus somehow, he is tied in this Grand, Cosmic

scheme away to exalt his son and show love.

To his son and glorify his son. And he is somehow tied that to

our joy and happiness. So the to have to go together

and that's unbelievable to me that I am most satisfied and I

have the most joy in the most happiness, when I'm the most

connected to him. And then Jesus turns around and

Promises to share all of his inheritance with us, right.

Like treat us as brothers and sisters, I mean, it's just it's

an honor. Unfathomable thing, right?

But I think when you begin to think on that scale and

understand those kind of implications of the Gospel, then

a term like addiction or recovery or whatever and like it

just kills all Pride, right? Because it helps you see clearly

that God has this desire for me to be satisfied.

In him, he's going to be glorified.

He is ultimately interested in my happiness as you stay, as you

said, but I am Constantly pursuing other things to replace

him and to fill that spot that's his alone to fill, right?

So that's what idolatry is exactly right?

That that is idolatry and its basic form is our way of saying

no I'm not going to accept you as Creator.

I'm going to Dethrone you and I'm putting myself as God and

I'm going to create something in my own image, which is what's so

fascinating about the Old Testament scriptures, whenever

you see Idols, you know, we Always kind of make fun.

I mean Maybe not maybe we don't make fun but we it seems weird

to me. I'm like, why would somebody bow

down to a statue? Right.

Right. But that's what that is in its

most basic form is. I'm going to create something in

my likeness. Like God created me and his

likeness and His Image, and he put people in his Temple.

I mean, the scripture say, the Earth is a temple of the Lord.

So where do all the religions? Get that idea, that you go to a

temple and there's an image that represents the god.

Well, it comes. From God because that's what he

did right. He created the Earth, he created

people in His image, he put the people on the Earth so that if

all creation wanted to know what is God look like, look at these

two people, it's a representation, right?

And we know that Jesus is the exact representation.

That's what Hebrews calls him. Right.

But that idea that God put his image and his Temple and then

when I have some idle in my life, that's exactly what I'm

doing is I'm as I'm rejecting In that idea and I create something

in my image and my likeness in human likeness and then I say

you're my God, deliver me that's that's the irony of it.

All is, we bound out to something that the scriptures

say doesn't have eyes doesn't have a mind.

Can't think can't do anything. And so in all of that, I become

more animalistic. I lose my Humanity because I'm

worshipping something that is not alive, right, right.

And but it's a Wait, for me to try to be the Creator, but I

can't really create anything that's alive.

I can only create dead things in my own image.

And I think we're just thinking about pastoring, our church,

where I see the struggle is, we want to have it both ways.

We want the grace of Jesus, we understand we have a need, but

yet we still want to fill our lives with these things and then

put Jesus on top of it and ask him.

To bless it or at least, to be okay with it.

So we have kind of all of our world worldliness And then we

have Jesus. And so we are, we are

synchronizing these things which has been a theme throughout

throughout history. Now, I'm not saying that these

things are bad, so when I say worldliness when I mean is

putting over identifying with those things, I mean we've seen

pretty clear there are study of Ecclesiastes that God gives us

all these things for us to enjoy.

He just says, don't make them ultimate, don't make them God's

worship, the God who gives them to you and be content in your

circumstance, right? But we have a hard time being

content. So we All of these things and

then we throw God on it top for good measure.

That doesn't mean we don't really truly believe.

That doesn't mean we don't have faith, but I just feel like

we're confused. Yeah, we're cluttered right?

So then how does how would you agree with that?

Is that would, so then how does the recovery process for us?

You know, addicts of all different kinds, how do we begin

to strip away those things and separate those things so that we

can truly be satisfied? I'd in God alone as our Lord

Savior King. How do we do that?

Yeah, you know, it's a great question.

And I don't know that I have a great answer.

I do think about Isaiah 44, you know, and Isaiah 44, he kind of

gives this story. He says there's a pine tree and

a cypress tree that are in the forest and God sends rain and it

nurses, those trees, those trees grow up and then you have a

story of somebody who goes and he cuts down the tree, right?

And it says, with a portion of the tree, he cuts it up into

firewood and he builds a fire, he bakes bread, he cooks meet,

he warms himself and he says I'm filled, I'm satisfied, right?

And with another portion of the tree he gets out his tools and

he carves out a figure in human likeness.

He bows down to it and he warships it.

And he says, rescue me. You're my God.

So here's where I think the church has gotten off track

especially when we talk about recovery or not even recovery,

just how to not be enslaved to sin, right?

Just spiritual life, right? Spiritual life is you know, if

you're talking about something like pornography Or a sexual

addiction. Then it becomes like a lust

management approach, you know, put a rubber band on your wrist.

And every time you have a lustful thought, snap the rubber

band, right? You know, like a like you're a

dog and you're training yourself, right?

I'm not going to say there's no value to that.

I'm just saying like that doesn't address the core issue

and so what ends up happening with something like that in the

lust management approach? Or like Colossians 2 would say

all these rules about don't touch.

Don't taste don't handle, you know, he goes.

Those rules seem wise because they require strong spiritual

devotion and highest self denial, but they provide no help

in. Conquering a person's evil

desires, so that kind of approach of don't don't, don't

stay away, stay away, stay away. It doesn't really fix the

problem, right? And so we see in Isaiah 44, like

there's a legitimate use of the tree and an illegitimate use of

the tree. And so, the problem with that

kind of approach is you basically Say to somebody.

Hey Scott. I know that you'd love to live

in this house and it's a beautiful house and it's and

it's, it would be wonderful, right?

But you know what? I looked at the house and I

looked out the back window. And you know what?

I saw, I saw a tree actually, there's a bunch of trees and you

know, what happens when you get around trees, right?

You make Idols, so I'm sorry you can't live there.

You can't enjoy all that goodness because it's too close

to trees. And since you're an idolater,

you An idol. So we just got to stay away.

Well, what's the problem with that?

The problem with that is, how are you going to have firewood?

Are you going to be warm? How are you going to cook bread?

Cook me be nourished. Be filled.

Hmm, okay, because God has created a world and he's given

people, five senses and part of the way that I know God and

enjoy God Is by enjoying his creation.

That's what we see in Genesis, right.

I'm gonna go put my hands up to something.

I'm going to work. I'm going to cultivate and

produce. It's part of how I glorify.

By God, it's part of my relationship with him as I get

to say, thank you. God, this is amazing.

And then I get to present something to him, right?

And so you strip all that away, then you strip away the marrow

of the relationship. And so what we've got to figure

out how to do is, we have to figure out how to practice

self-care and healthy, holy ways.

So that we are enjoying the goodness, God gives us but Then

not taking that and forming it into an idol and making it an

ultimate thing that I bow down to and says, I can't be happy

without this, so we talked about like lust management.

Yeah, we couldn't talk about behavior modification, but it

seems like there could be some tension between that.

And what you said earlier about, sometimes I just need to obey

and then my motivation will follow how would you split the

difference? They are between just obeying

and trusting God. That's right, it's a great

question and That is attention for sure, which is the

scriptures are full of, but I think that's where Peter says.

You're a slave to whatever you will be your slave to whatever

controls you. And here's a great biblical

paradoxes, we're slaves either way, right?

And so, Paul says right Romans, right?

You're you're a slave to righteousness or you're a slave.

Does it sound like you're not getting out of slavery?

That's right. You're going to be bound in some

way. But are you going to be bound to

an infinite being whose holy who has your best interest in mind?

Are you going to be bound to something unhealthy and Unholy

is going to destroy you? Geez, this talks about this idea

to that, wherever your treasure is what is your heart to your

heart follows. And so when the Bible, you know,

uses this word enslavement, and slave to sin, I think that is

where some of the discipline, you know, part of what I had to

do in my own story. And I read this from Every Man's

Battle is, I had to starve my eyes for six weeks.

Well, that's behavior modification, right, right.

But here's the thing. I was so enslaved.

My heart was not accessible. I could not see clearly.

I had to just discipline myself to go do something that I had no

confidence would work. And then after six weeks, I

remember coming to a service one, Sunday morning, and I just

cried like a baby because all of a sudden I felt like my heart

was free. Now, that's a weird thing to

say, but my wife was standing next to me and she was like,

what is wrong with you? Like I don't know just I'm fine

just talk about it but but at that point, then I had a certain

level where my heart was accessible and my heart could

then begin help lead my behavior, right?

So I do think you can become so entrenched in your idolatry or

you can become so dominated by your addiction that you're just

living like an animal. And when that happens, somebody

just has to come in and Intervene and there just has to

be a like a, it's like a detox, right?

It's a period of time. Where were you get free.

And all of a sudden, you can think again and you begin to

move and then you can experience the goodness of God in

relationship with him and with his community and enjoy those

things where they don't just completely.

If it's grown out of bounds, there has to be a shrinking.

Right there, has to be a reorientation of all that, and a

lot of that is just starts with Discipline, which is a big

question that people have when they come into recovery.

And we're like, hey, here's a book with a bunch of homework,

right? And they're thinking how can

homework help me write with not drinking problem.

Well, what they don't understand is the homework is just a tool

to connect you to Jesus and anybody who spends a year

connecting with Jesus every day. Well, what happens over time

they find what they're really looking for and then their need

for the alcohol or the sex or the drugs, or the anger or the

Like it just it goes away. Yeah, I want to talk about how

region helps the accessible heart, but let me share this

illustration. That was shared me years ago

that I have always clung to. And it's about Passover, and

it's basically about the Death, Angel, The Blood over the

doorpost. And you think about the Jews

that are living interspersed among the Egyptians.

And you think about the, you know, the angel of death going

into the Egyptian household, And there's idols on the Altar and

there's no blood on the doorpost and there's death in the house

and then they go to the next house, the Egyptian house and

there's idols on the altar, there's no blood on the

doorpost, there's death in the house and then they go to the

Jewish household. And what are they find?

They find idols on the altar. But they find Blood on the

doorpost. And so there's salvation.

And and so just a picture of God's grace through obedience by

faith, when you're all messed up and all whacked out and all, and

looking for all of these God substitutes, there has to be a

moment of Faith where we are saying, I don't really know how

all this works, but I am making my heart accessible and I could

imagine And the Salvation that occurred to that family, the

revelation of God as Savior, that that began the

transformation process. And so I just that brings great

comfort to me that I don't have to have my my mantle clear.

You know. Like I don't have to clean

myself up before the recovery process can starts, right?

That's right. You don't clean up to take a

bath. That's the way I heard, right?

So tell us about how This idea of region and this specific

program. How does it connect with people

who have are trying in the process of trying to make their

heart accessible for change? Yeah, and that's work that God

does, right? I mean that, that is where we

have to say, hey, this is not something that we can control

and go do and part of that is, you know, the great irony of

scripture. I mean, the reason Jesus taught

in Parables is to not only reveal truths but to conceal it

from people who write out an arrogant.

And so it's the humble people that get in, right?

The people who are humble enough to say I'm broken, I can't do

it. I need something outside of

myself, Jesus. I need you like, those are the

people that get in, right, right?

Which you just read the gospels and you get very clear on that

fact. I mean, which is why Jesus

challenge the religious leaders so much he's trying to help them

see their need, right? But those are the people ended

up murdering him, right? Mean it was the good Christian

people, Grace Church that killed Jesus, right?

It was right. People had a Billy Graham

crusade. That killed Jesus.

I mean it was we're not talking about evil Roman pagans, right?

It was the religious people trying to do the right thing, it

was us. And so that's where Grace is a

threat to us, right? Because we all are

self-righteous and we want to we want to work and earn our way

but at some point this is Berk that God does and when I'm able

to humble myself and go, I don't understand how this can help me.

I don't understand how all this can work but I'm going I'm

willing to humble myself and submit to a A process.

I mean I just think that kind of humility is is an invitation of

God into your life. And I just, and that's the deal,

whether it's in region or anything, any aspect of life

that kind of humility to go. I can't handle it.

Jesus, I need you. I'm just, I'm just going to do

what these people tell me. These is where you brought me.

I'm just, I'm just going to obey, right?

And I think, I mean, I've seen God meet people there in amazing

ways, amazing. What because there's nothing

special about region, right? It's like it's not some kind of

like pixie dust magic formula. Or whatever Elixir, you know,

drink this, and you're going to be cured.

And I mean, that's the thing that people find like they come

into region and we have a list of 120 common struggles, which

you can pretty much find anything on there.

And the more I look at it, the bigger modest growth.

Right, right, right. And so it's not about fixing the

thing, but here's what I think God does in the universe.

What? However, he's wired up the

Universe, I think part of it, is he continually brings things

into our life to show us, you can't handle it.

You can handle it. This life is entirely too much.

We, you know, we pervert that passage in 1st Corinthians 10

and we and it gets paraphrase. God can't give you more than you

can handle is very, that's crappy theology.

Like I think I heard John Elmore at Watermark say that you know

it's crap theology, right? Like this life is entirely more

than you can handle, right? It's far too much and God brings

those things into our lives to show us.

We desperately need. Mmm.

And really being in a relationship.

Ship with him. Like the work of recovery is the

goal of recovery because it's in the work that you get connected

to the creator of the universe. The work is the goal.

Yes, the goal is not to fix the thing or two graduate.

Fix the thing, check it off, be able to graduate and become a

mentor graduate and become a group leader like it's not a

stepping stone. That's right.

It's a journey in and of itself. That's right.

Because in that journey is Are our meet God, right?

And if I meet God, and I'm walking with him and I'm

experiencing his healing and I'm learning to trust and I'm seeing

him work. What more do you need?

Yeah, the goal, as we stated from the very beginning, as

really what drives the entire desire to have these

conversations is to draw us back to Devotion to God.

Love God, love one. Another like that is always the

goal and when we begin to substitute good things Ministry,

Oh, things, even for those for that goal, we were missing the

mark. And so I love that Devotion to

God, that's found through the work through the Journey,

Through the recovery of our true, identity of our soul

satisfaction, and God alone mean, that is that, that's what

it's all about. That's what it's all about.

That's what it's all about Jim. This has been great.

I really appreciate your Clarity of thought your Insight and so

for someone who's listening and they're like, yes I need this, I

need Recovery, I'm an addict. What would you tell them

specifically related to regen region?

Can't fix you. Twelve steps, can't heal.

Anybody only Jesus heals people. So you need Jesus and the time

is now just start Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, just show up

starts process. So what we need to do is get

connected to your responsible. Pastor your campus?

Pastor someone at the connect team with the Kinect team on

your Campus, get the details, the where, and when we have a

lot of people on the same journey and we want to bring you

in to just really that Fellowship as we all seek

greater Devotion to God and Devotion to others.

So Jim, thanks so much for being here, excited to see what God

does through this. Thanks.

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