EP23: Suffering Well with Others

The church has just grown a lot lately and it's just grown

really fast. And I think we're entering into

a stage that we've never had to enter in before because the

church has been around now for a while and we're just starting to

see new things. And so how do we, I guess

prioritize our energies in learning those new things and it

not be reactive, but more proactive.

I would say, you know, like our community groups, you know,

that's where a lot of life happens week in and week out,

and helping leaders, helping members to shepherd one another

when those situations happen, like what to do, how to be

there, working on just the Ministry of of Presence.

I'm just learning how to be in the moment when that crisis

happens. Welcome back to another episode

of the Grace Church Members Podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Rivers, and in this episode, Scott Mazingo

and I have a conversation with Jennifer Dill, who serves as

Grace Church's Care and Recovery Director.

She shares with us her personal experience in the area of

suffering well with others, and then gives us some tips on how

to prioritize our energy as a church to move from being

reactive to proactive in this area.

So without further ado, let's jump into this conversation.

Hey, Chris, Good to be here. Hey, Chris.

Hey, Jennifer, tell us how you started working here at Grace,

Your story. I'd love to hear more about

that. Yeah, thanks.

So it's a little bit of personal story, professional story.

So it's just amazing to see how God kind of brings all that

together, you know, when you're thinking about your life and how

you can serve him. But back in 2006, I went to the

lake one day with a really good friend of mine.

She had been friends with me since middle school.

We grew up together and roomed together in college.

And you know, this wasn't just like a a best friend.

I mean, she was like a sister, family member, type friend.

And so we went to the lake one day.

I really didn't want to go. It was the part beginning of

senior year and I was just trying to get our apartment

ready and she wanted to go and just kept begging me and begging

me to go. So finally I went and we get

there and you know those big double tubes where you're like

two people can be on them. So we hopped on the boat, got on

the tube, you know, having a good time.

And then so I leaned the the tube into the the wake, you

know, so we could kind of jump it as you do on a lake.

We came back around to the other side, hit another wake.

She flew off and died in the in the boating accident.

So it was a really tragic boating accident.

So from there, you know, my, my worldview completely changed.

I was Christian and but I I just remember thinking like this

doesn't happen. Like this isn't supposed to

happen. What just happened?

You know, our whole lives we we had planned and made all these,

you know, things that we were going to do together and then

that was just gone in an instant.

And I remember thinking it's not supposed to be this way.

Or what am I supposed to do? And what were you thinking as

far as a career path at that time?

Well, you know, funny enough, at that time I was thinking

something in ministry, but I had.

I had no clue what. I actually started college as an

elementary education major, which just found out real quick

that wasn't for me. The Lord said, no, you're you're

good. We'll do something else.

And then I just threw his prompting.

I knew I wanted to do something in ministry but didn't know

what. And so then the accident

happened and you know I'm left senior year, was still to to

finish senior year and then also figure out what are those next

steps and so. What was your friend's name?

Mallory. Mallory So as you're processing

the death of this best friend family member.

We're, I mean how does that shape a 2021 year old and where

do you, where do you take those thoughts and emotions?

How do you how how do you allow God to channel all that in at

that time? To be honest, at the time, I I

really don't know. I know that's not a good answer

to your question, but it was so I feel like people were carrying

me through with their faith and their prayers and their strength

in the Lord. I though my nature, my personal

nature, was to hunker down and take care of everybody else.

So I would say I kind of put my grief and mourning on hold for a

couple of years. I mean, I was still devastated.

Cry myself to sleep, you know, a lot of the lot of the time.

But I wanted to be there for everybody else.

I felt like I've got to be strong for them.

I've got to be there for them. And I do think God used that,

but he was trying to, you know, tell me like, hey, you need to

just surrender to me. But I didn't really know how to

do that. I like to say that before the

accident, God was just, he was in my life, but he's kind of

more of a lofty figure. Whereas afterwards he became

right beside me. He was there, he was alive and

just right there beside me. And so I really don't know how I

made it through those days as a 21 year old.

I just knew that after that day my whole life was different.

You know, personally, I became a lot more scared, nervous,

anxious. Before, I would just go do

whatever I can, still be fairly happy, go lucky.

But now it's like guarded because I've had something

happen in my life that it just all that was gone.

Yeah. And we wanted to take some time

just for you to share that, not just to get to know you better,

but there's everyone listening can resonate with different

parts of that story and then the the idea of how do we help

others. In times of suffering, how do we

suffer well with others is really what we're titling this

episode and we thought that having your personal experience

and then we'll talk about your professional experience in a

minute. That is really giving you some

insight into how you are giving the the best part of your career

right now to help our church do this, do this well.

And so tell us, just back up for just a second.

Or Fast forward whichever way you want to look at it.

Tell us about all the different ministries that you kind of

direct and then we'll we'll go back and pick up a little bit on

the professional side of your your training and your career

experience. Sure.

So care and recovery is related to grief support, divorce

support, mental health recovery and then our legacy ministry and

all of that is for probably about ages 5 and up.

So anything that falls under those buckets is what our team

helps resource the church as a whole.

And then also another part of my job is the Funerals Natural

burial bereavement ministry. So, so care is really the

entirety of our church is under care Ministry.

Sure. Yeah, Okay.

Now that's great. That's great.

And so then to take some of the. Personal steps to get to a place

professionally where you really gave your life and your career

to. To helping people as they they

struggle well through grief, through suffering as they care

for others well. Walk us through some of the some

of the steps that you took to to get here professionally.

Yep, sure. So you know, in college I wasn't

really sure the exact direction, but it was interesting.

You know how you need like internships kind of your senior

year. So even in the midst of all the

things that had happened with the accident, my major was

psychology with I think maybe it was a minor in some sort of

religious studies. I don't, I'm not really even

sure. But I know I needed essentially

2 internships to finish out the year and so I was approached by

by one of my professors who just said, hey, there's this thing at

the local hospital, do you want to try it?

And the school only required 8 hours of internship, but this

was 120 hours and so when I interviewed for it.

That's more than what you needed.

A lot more. Like, a lot more so.

And they had never partnered with college students to do the

internship. They only partnered with those

who had been through grad school and had graduated something like

seminary. So I was a little bit of a

Guinea pig. So I knew at the time the Lord

wanted me to be with people and He wanted to.

I did feel like in some way use my story of the accident, even

though it was very, very fresh in that moment.

Another part of of me is that I have and I only say this because

it it resonates is, you know, I do have and have had some health

issues all my life and so those three things I wanted for huge

motivators, yes, huge motivators, absolutely.

And and college. So the internship that you went

forward on that was kind of some of that?

Yes, yes. So what I found it out to be was

a internship at the hospital to be a chaplain.

So I remember one of my first visits was, you know, with a

family. He had just had surgery and they

were, you know, a little upset about the surgery.

And I'll be honest, I had no clue what I was doing.

I was just told, here's the pager, go be with people.

And so I did. And but there's something about

that family and that visit that the Lord was in that room.

And I remember coming out of that room and saying this is

this is it. This is what the Lord has me

doing for the moment. And so from there I find out,

oh, you can do this as a job, you can be a a chaplain as a

job. And so I did some more research

and I knew my next step then was to go to seminary.

So I finished the the internship and I thought, well, if I want

to pursue this professionally, these are the steps I've got to

take. So I went to seminary and

specialized in pastoral care and counseling and so took a lot of

classes on grief and how to be in those suffering moments with

folks and then from there graduated.

And so in chaplaincy you have these certifications.

So I'd already done the internship.

One went to seminary. So the second one was that you

had to apply for a thing called residency.

And so for that it's a year long program and I moved to Charlotte

to complete that program. Then from there the Lord allowed

me to complete a second year so that so that I could actually

focus on end of life care with people.

And this is all in the hospital setting, yes.

So I spent two years in Charlotte doing primarily end of

life care and work getting those certifications the Lord was

putting on our hearts. So my husband and I that

Charlotte was not our only move. Then he took us to Pittsburgh

where I learned the sun is not there and it does not shine.

And yes, it is here. But so he took us to Pittsburgh.

And in Pittsburgh I worked in Hospice.

So I was in Hospice care for two years up there.

And then, thankfully, the Lord brought us back to Greenville,

where the sun. And I worked at the hospital

here in Greenville as a pallet of care chaplain for 3 1/2

years. And explain pallet of care for

those that may not be familiar. Yes, so pallet of care.

So to palliate means to cloak to come around.

So a lot of folks, when they hear pallet of care, they

immediately think end of life. Yes, that is a lot of

situations, but it's not always. Ideally, it's a team of people

who come around you and your family if you were to get a

major diagnosis or eventually terminal diagnosis to help you

walk through those stages of that diagnosis.

So that entails a doctor, a nurse, social worker, chaplain,

nurse practitioner to come around that family and that

patient to help them with what they need, correct?

Yes, it's a care team. And you know, one of the things,

so if I'm doing the math right, that's 7 1/2 years in hospital

slash palliative care, Hospice work.

So that's a, that's a good little career, career there.

And then you have an opportunity to come and basically do some of

the same things here at Grace Church, Is that right?

Yes. And so seems like you're a good

fit for that, for that role. And from what I know, I've

gotten to work. Alongside you for the last five

years and known you a lot longer.

It's just it has been nice to see how God used experience

professional career and then brought you into this

environment where we we have some care structures already set

up in terms of care. You know, care groups, community

groups, just, you know, familial type relationships within the

church. But yet we don't always know

what to do. So we have a lot of energy, but

we don't have a lot of knowledge is.

That fair to say a lot of energy, not a lot of knowledge.

So you've come in as a as a subject matter expert to then

just kind of work and mold this, this clay that we have here in

the local church. What have you seen over the last

five years? You know, what are some areas

that we're doing well and where, where do we need to step in and

and grow in some areas? A lot of areas that I've seen

doing well is, is the energy, the heart, the wanting to be

with people, wanting to to do right by their brothers and

sisters, you know, in different community groups and

regeneration and grief support and reengage.

You know, there's there's so much heart there that that does

energize me so much willingness to just learn and be open with

what they feel like the Lord is calling them to do.

And so that that's been a really neat area.

I think when you said you know the the church has just grown a

lot lately and it's just grown really fast.

And I think we're entering into a stage that we've never had to

enter in before because the church has been around now for a

while and we're just starting to see new things.

And so how do we I guess prioritize our energies in

learning those new things and it not be reactive, but more

proactive. I would say, you know, like our

our community groups, you know that's where a lot of life

happens week in and week out. And you know helping leaders,

helping members, leaders and members to shepherd one another

when those situations happen like what to do, how to be there

working on just the Ministry of of presence.

I'm just learning how to be in the moment when that crisis

happens. We were talking earlier about

the difference between empathy and sympathy, and I don't know

if that's a chance to talk about that right here.

But even as you, we have leaders here that are in situations

where there is suffering, where they are connecting to people in

their groups or just people and their families, and there's

there's a grief. I don't know if you could unpack

some of what we were talking about earlier, but that was real

helpful to me. Yeah, sure.

So I definitely resonate with, you know, Romans 12.

Rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn

because to me that is that is being empathetic for folks.

I think you can have a posture of sympathy where you hear about

something and and you think, gosh that's I hate that for

them. But then empathy is really you

are rejoicing with somebody who may have just gotten a new job

or new house when you know they've been struggling, or you

really are mourning with someone who has just gone through

something that that is part of your own story, or even

something that's not part of your story.

But being in that moment, of just being able to mourn with

them, you know, that's that's more empathy.

Taking what you think could be a feeling of that situation and

asking, you know, hey, that sounds really hard.

That sounds like that's that's a hard situation or gosh, I would

be really sad in that, you know, what do you think?

Are you are you sad, or are you feeling something else that

right there is entering in and being able to, you know, mourn

with them? So listening for verbal cues,

following up with questions. So what we want to do I think in

the last little bit here that we have together is we want to talk

about some things to avoid. When we talk about how to be

your best self and and suffer well with others and then some

things to do, we're just going to kind of commingle those

together, things to avoid and things to do.

And so you gave an interesting example of when things to avoid

when we get empathy and sympathy confused.

Can you talk a little bit about little bit about that and some

of the exercises that you had to go through in your training?

Sure, sure. So one thing that, and I know

that he was, you know, saying it out of the goodness of his

heart, but after the the accident, you know, we all had

to get kind of questioned and by the police and things like that.

And I had given my statement and then the cop looks at me and he

just smiles and he's like it's going to all be okay.

And I'm thinking maybe one day, but not today, you know?

And so I think. Learning about yourself in that

moment of are you one that goes to want to fix?

Are you a fixer? Do you want to immediately give

a scripture and a 123 of how to get through a situation that.

Those things may need to come, but maybe it's a little bit

later. Maybe in that moment they just

need you to hold their hand. I remember I visited one lady in

the hospital and her husband had just had a stroke.

She was in the ER and I just came and I introduced myself and

I just sat down beside her, brought her a cup of water and

and some hospital Graham crackers and she said thank you.

And then she just grabbed my hand and would not let go for

about an hour. And she didn't want to talk.

She just wanted somebody present with her and ended up.

I saw her a couple days later and she said that was the most

godly thing that you could have done for me because you were

just there. And I think that is sometimes

what we what we miss because we're so busy.

We want to rush. We just want to like check off.

Oh, have I checked on so and so. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

And I think a lot of times we just need to slow down and

realize these are people that maybe the Lord has entrusted us

to care for. And so those are, you know, kind

of extreme examples, ones that I've seen.

But even you know, are you somebody that gets nervous when

somebody in your community group starts talking about something

you're not comfortable with? Or you think, what if they say

something that I don't know how to handle, or they say something

that is just not how you were raised or part of your culture

or part of your background, You know, do you freeze up or that?

Or do you start chatting a lot and start saying things that are

more about you than about that? Would be a coping mechanism.

It's how you're dealing with your uncomfortability or anxiety

and stress. Yeah, absolutely.

Did it take you a while to figure out how to get aware?

Like, I mean you. You talk about this idea of

getting clear, becoming aware of yourself in this moment.

Like, did it take you? In these eight years that you

were in these in this business of work that you had, yeah.

It do a lot of wrong things. I mean like yes.

So one thing. How do you get aware, Jennifer?

Right, Yeah. Is no one.

Sometimes you can do all the right things and it's still

going to not be the right thing. So in our training as chaplains,

we had to write these things called verbatims and we would

list out the conversations that we would have with a patient and

we even had to pick verbatims or patient visits that we didn't

feel good about. So that way we could get

assessed and supervised on how to do better maybe the next

time. So you would write down, you

know, chaplain patient, chaplain patient.

And it was the whole conversation of how you felt

like or as much as you could remember from the conversation.

And then in parentheses out beside what the chaplain would

say, you'd have to put down what you were thinking, feeling,

seeing, smelling, whatever it may be in parentheses.

So some of it was as simple as okay.

This person has called me for a visit right before lunchtime.

I'm really hungry. What kind of chaplain would they

want? Even though I'm hungry and I had

to think, gosh, all right, how am I going to be with this

person when I'm starving and haven't eaten?

Yeah, because you're not your best self in that moment,

correct. It's like the Snickers

commercial, right? Yes, you turn it.

Yes, I definitely turn into somebody.

I don't know who that would be, but.

Maybe that's why I always see you as snacks.

That could be it. I honest, Yes, because I just

asked my husband. I get very angry sometimes.

But, but what you're describing is just basic.

Human function right right and and sometimes we we over

spiritualize the whole process and just forget what do we

thinking, what are we feeling, what are we seeing, what are we

smelling? And and just we have to, we have

to put ourselves in that position and we have to be

honest about ourselves and are we being our best self and are

we catching others at their best self.

So you you mentioned like you being hungry and then you share

a story about just like what the, what the patient was was

feeling. You can't go in and and and

really minister to a patient if their physical needs, you can't

minister. Well if their physical needs are

being met, if someone's hungry or someone's thirsty, they're

going to have a hard time really listening to you, right.

Someone's in pain. They're going to have a really

hard time listening to you. And so why?

Why do we forget that, Jennifer? I think a lot of times we can

easily make it about ourselves. We easily think, well, I've

given up my time to come here and yet you don't.

You're not ready to talk to me. There would be times that I

would visit with people, and in that moment, they wanted to hear

from the Doctor Who was about to give them either the really best

news of their life or the really worst news.

And I come in and they don't want to talk to me.

Not that they're disregarding me as a, as you know, a person or a

visit, but their mind is more on what the doctor's going to say

in that moment. And so at that point I had to

say, you know, it's not about me, it's about what they are

wanting in this moment. And that's with, you know, I'm

using a lot of patient examples, but that's with community group,

that's with your neighbor. You know, in that moment they

may be needing something that that's not about you.

Right. And I think that's one of the

downsides of having a high level of responsibility is that we can

also think too much of ourselves and that our responsibility and

the actual outcome or change that we can bring is far greater

than what we can actually do. Sure.

And I've noticed and guilty of this many, many times.

That we think our words are so important when rarely if the

three of us around the table can think about the times when we

were at our worst. We barely remember what anybody

said, but we do remember if they were there.

And a lot of the physical presence like you talked about

the we we underestimate physical touch of the holding of the

hand, the moving in close to listen so someone doesn't have

to speak. Loudly, difficult, hard things,

sad things. Grieving well with someone you

know, sitting, sitting close to them, even having Kleenex to

offer someone who's crying. You know, I and I think about

the idea of of Jesus Incarnate. Jesus came in flesh, right?

He put on flesh. And when we sit.

And suffer well with someone. The number one thing is just

that we're present, that we're we're in the flesh, that we're

there. Because our greatest fear is I

don't even know that it's suffering.

I think it's suffering alone. Yes, I.

Think it's just being alone. And when we can be there with

someone, all we have to do, the first thing we have to do is we

have to be. And I think if we could just

lower our own expectations as far as what we have to say, what

verses we have to share, what we have to pray, if we could just

be present, then a lot of this other stuff takes care of

itself. Would you agree?

Absolutely. And I think also being willing

to say I don't know, right? And I think being willing to

have a humble posture of not only just being so when you

don't know what to say, letting the person know, I don't know

what to say. This is really hard.

But I'm here with you, I'm sitting next to you.

I'm in the moment with you. And Diane Langberg from the book

Suffering in the Heart of God. She does a lot of counseling

with trauma survivors. And her whole posture is, how

can she, with each visit, with each person, bear the fragrance

of God? And that has been, you know,

especially the last month or two, to be honest, has just been

really resonating with me. How is it that I can just bear

the fragrance of God so that the person knows the Lord is with

them through me through my visit?

Yeah. That's good, yeah.

And I think about the 2nd Corinthians 1 passage that part

of God's sovereign design of our lives is.

When we go through struggles and suffering which are unavoidable,

that God comforts us in our troubles so that we can give

comfort to others like that is part of the divine design.

And so I think when we miss, miss that and and not

necessarily because we're unwilling to to enter into that,

but maybe when we mistake what type of comfort we're actually

bringing. That's when we lose the

opportunity to to really have that Ministry of Presence that

you're talking about. Sure.

And I think it's also making sure we are responding to the

Holy Spirit. A lot of times when I've maybe

said something in community group, then I've shared

something really hard. I can tell the Holy Spirit is

working through somebody because maybe I'll get a text that just

says hey, thank you for sharing last night.

That was. I know that was really hard.

I'm praying for you. And that right there means the

world because I was seen, I was heard and I felt like I wasn't

alone in that moment. And so a lot of times, you know,

especially leaders in our group, we don't know what to say.

I mean, we were just in the moment.

We have a group of maybe 10 to 12 people that were trying to

shepherd and be with with the act of listening to Holy Spirit

and following up with people is is key.

Because the followup actually shows the intentionality.

I mean, and I don't think there's anything wrong in the

moment like a couple of things that I've been, I've done poorly

in the past that I'm trying to, I'm trying to get better at is

instead of saying, hey, I'm going to pray for you like in

the moment, just praying, knowing that it doesn't have to

be a long prayer. It doesn't have to be the most

eloquent prayer. Because it is the act of showing

dependence on God that it really matters.

And then, even at the risk of being awkward, if we're having a

text conversation, I will text a prayer to them and just say,

hey, I'm praying this for you right now.

Again, it does not have to be long.

It does not have to be certainly perfect.

It just has to be heartfelt and then giving them the permission.

I even even put this in there. Hey, no need to respond.

Like, I'm not doing this to get something from you.

So, like thinking about you today, praying for you.

No need to respond. Here's what I'm praying for you

today. No need to respond.

Here's a verse that I'm praying or I'm thinking about, I want to

share with you. You don't have to respond like

you don't have to. I'm trying to care for you.

You do not have to feel like you need to care for me, right?

That's good you talked. With the this idea of practice

and suffering well with others. We've talked about

selfawareness, we've talked about bearing the fragrance of

God. We've talked about listening to

the Holy Spirit, just praying for others in the moment.

What are some other things that we can do to help us as leaders

care for others? Well, sure.

You know, I would just say being willing to enter in, being

willing to say almost to kind of to yourself of just like okay

Lord, I I don't know how to be with this person, but be with my

words and my actions and being willing to to look people in the

eye and enter in. I would say to just maybe text

somebody, like we were just talking about and saying, hey,

I'm about to go to the grocery store.

I'll pick you up some things. What do you need?

And I'll just drop them off. You don't even have to see me or

see my face. I just want you to know I'm.

I'm already heading there. Might as well get you something

as well. You'll never regret doing that.

And that's what the Lord wants. He wants our hearts.

He wants us to see, you know, how are we being guided in that

moment and how are we listening to him?

You know, they may say no, I don't need anything.

They may say no thank you, but at least in that moment you have

you've tried to enter in. Yeah, I think a lot of our

church sees it as their responsibility, but I don't know

that we really see it as an opportunity because I think

we're afraid. We're afraid of, of messing up,

doing something wrong, making things worse.

And a lot of that is about us, like you said.

So to have a humble posture and really see suffering.

Just as the Apostle Paul said as an opportunity to comfort with

the comfort that we have received and it is, it is a

great chance to be the body Incarnate, the love of Christ,

and ultimately help God get the glory in whatever situation.

Right? Right.

Can you help land the plane with us and and just talk a little

bit about end of life. I know that was a a topic that

we wanted to discuss if if you could just.

Share a little bit more about that we were talking about

earlier. Yeah, so a lot of a lot of folks

I have have been with have been at the end of their lives and a

lot of folks just want you to be with them, be present.

As we have talked about, it was rare that we got into any kind

of scripture theological debate. I remember actually one of my

professors, I wasn't doing so well and learning Greek and and

I was upset about it and he was like, listen, go get your C pass

the class. Nobody at the end of their life

is going to ask you to translate something in the Greek language.

And so that was so helpful because they they just wanted

more of my comfort and my presence and not necessarily

this big spiritual statement. A lot of folks there's, there's

a book called Four Things That Matter Most by Ira Bayak and a

lot of folks at the end of life just want to hear, you know

please forgive me, I forgive you, thank you and I love you.

They just, they want to relive good memories.

They want to make sure their loved ones know how much they

love them. They want to make sure that

their loved ones are going to be okay and they want to know that

their presence is going to matter to them in that moment.

So it's been, it's been an honest, like a holy moment, a

holy moment to be in that ministry of presence, to just

sit there and be with somebody as they relive some of their

best memories or even share stories or wisdom with you in

the moment. Once you repeat those four

things that matter most. Sure.

Please forgive me. I forgive you.

Thank you and I love you so. Some good words and awesome to

hear your story and grateful for your expertise here at our

church and thoughts and ideas around practice.

I've taken a lot of notes. I know this will be very helpful

for our leaders. So as we wrap up this episode,

we want to thank you for joining us and if you have additional

questions or you want. Just to access resources, check

out our podcast page that's located in the show notes.

And we were hoping that Jennifer, you could pray for us

and pray for our leaders and pray for us as a church, that we

would just suffer well and so would you be willing to do that?

Yeah, absolutely. Dear Lord, I thank you just for

today. I thank you for just who you are

and how you reveal yourself, even just through simple acts to

God. Lord, we thank you that you care

for us today and tomorrow, and you are the same yesterday,

today, and forever. And so, when we are feeling

unsettled because of suffering that may be in our lives, dear

God, I pray that you will give us unfailing strength to bear

it. I pray that our leaders and

those who are in shepherding situations will be able to put

aside any anxious thoughts while they are shepherding one

another, and that they will allow you to speak through them

and to be a vessel of comfort and peace.

Lord, I just thank you for all that you do and who you are to

us. We pray these things in Jesus

name. Amen.

Amen. Thank.

You.