EP 39: Self Made Series Q&A

Really, everything we've covered in this self-made series, I

think is back to Do I believe that the life God has asked us

to live is actually the best life a human can live?

Or do I not? Welcome to a special edition of

the Members Podcast. Today we are answering questions

that have come out of our self-made series.

Last weekend we finished A5 part series addressing the cultural

pressures to be self-made men and women.

Today we have Hayley Baranowski, Blake Payne and Scofield Foster

Co, creators of the sermon series, in for a follow up.

They're answering your questions ranging from the healthy role of

emotions, the challenge of performance driven culture, sex,

singleness and practical ways to sing better songs.

If you missed any of the series teaching, you can find easy

access on the Grace Church app or on our website at Grace dot

SC under resources. I hope you enjoy.

So our first question reads like this.

When it comes to our feelings and emotions, we tend to swing

on a pendulum from my feelings don't really matter and so I

should have void them completely.

Two, my feelings are the only thing that matter and everyone

else has to acknowledge them. So the question is, what is the

role of healthy emotion for us as believers?

I will kick us off. Yes, I do care a lot about this

topic just because even in preparing this last summer, I

raised the question just about as we mature in our faith, is

there the chance that not all of our feelings are bad all the

time? I think we have to start at the

perspective that we can't trust ourselves.

We got to acknowledge our hearts are deceitful, but as we walk

with the Lord longer, is there a chance our feelings shift And

you know, can we, can we trust anything we're feeling or

nothing at all? So I think as we talked about it

and I've had a year to kind of think on it a little bit more, I

think there definitely is a role for feelings ultimately, just

because God made them. So I don't think he would have

made something innately that was all the way bad all the time.

So I think we just have to be willing to evaluate them because

they can't be deceitful. So I think we see in God that he

communicates with emotion too. So we see him communicate with

anger and grief and joy and pride and, you know, the full

range of emotions throughout Scripture.

And that's not even taking into account the emotions that Jesus

felt when he was on the earth. So I think the ultimate question

is, are we willing to vet them when we feel them?

Do we know enough about the character and the instructions

of God to have a standard to compare them to?

And then are we willing to do so?

And then over time, are we noticing hopefully that our

emotions are starting to align with the way that God

demonstrates emotion? So are the things that make us

angry, the things that make God angry are the things that make

us sad, the things that make him sad and then, you know, extend

that all the circumstances you can think of.

So, so if we're made in God's image and God has emotion, then

we have to have emotion. And so the question is healthy

emotion and the self-awareness to discern that.

And if, as we are being conformed and transformed into

the image of Christ, those emotions should come into

alignment. Yeah, hopefully over time.

But because it's such a powerful thing, it's easy to be deceived

by it. Is that true?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you think about it, I

mean, if you looked at the Bible and you look for all the ways

that you see God's emotions described, that'd be a fun kind

of study to see how many, how many are there even?

I mean, jealousy, anger, sadness, delight, leisure, love,

I mean, interesting. But I think again, like Haley

said, the goal is that our feelings are in alignment with

God 'cause God's feelings are always in alignment with reality

and ours due to the broken nature of our hearts, like we

see in Jeremiah 17, often aren't.

And but to your point, the like the sanctification process

should be one in which like there's this up and to the right

movement of our emotions lined up with gods.

But you know, like you were saying earlier, even that not

all the way until he comes back and he finishes this work with

us. So community, you know, the

Scriptures, all that's always going to have a role to play.

But alignment, what does our feelings do?

Our desires align with God's feelings and God's desires.

One more thought on that. I was thinking, because we've

been doing some work in the Old Testament downtown this summer,

just that what it seems as you look through different Old

Testament stories, especially in the era of the patriarchs, it

does seem that God actually really values emotional

engagement with his people. Because we've been looking at,

you know, Abraham and Jacob and David and just the fact that I

don't think God ever wanted us to be robots.

Like he wants a lifelong covenantal, committed

relationship with us. And when emotion is a part of

that, I think that actually brings joy to him because it's

not this sterile, you know, I'm checking boxes because you told

me to. It's that my heart is engaged in

my relationship with you, too. And so I don't think God ever

desires for our emotions to go away.

I think they just have to be redirected over time.

But actually think he loves that we have them and he wants us to

engage with him in them, whether it's, you know, emotion actually

about our faith or about whatever we have going on.

Yeah. And there was another thought

around ambition. How?

How is that? And the emotion of wanting to

achieve or be recognized or or be productive, How, how does

that play into this conversation?

I think very similarly, and this one is near to my heart too,

because I do think that can actually be a pretty strong

driving factor. I think there are emotions

attached with that, whether it's identity and purpose and value.

I think we when you are driven by ambition, you associate a lot

of feelings with that. But I think the solution or the

approach is actually pretty similar because I don't think

God looks down upon ambition per SE.

I think if we look even in the way that he interacted with his

people over time, he didn't necessarily look down upon or

discourage success. I mean, even in a worldly sense

at times, like we see it in the life of Joseph and of David too,

that over different portions of their lives, it says that God

was with them and everything they did prospered.

So I think if they had not brought at least something of

their personality to those efforts, that something could

have been lost there. But I do think you also see in

plenty of other examples that when ambition is removed from

God and it's something that you're exercising or going after

apart from God, that it's purely selfish.

So really, I don't, I don't think it's actually all that

different from emotions. I think it's just a willingness

to vet them. And then when it comes to a

conflict between me and God in terms of what I'm going after,

what I'm feeling, how I'm wanting to respond to a feeling,

what I'm trying to pursue, who is it that I'm going to respond

to? Is it me or is it God?

Yeah. And I do think there's a gap in

the way we think about work and we're actually working, working

on a podcast where we try to bring some some better faith

integration in the way that we talk about work.

So you can just be on the lookout for that.

If we zoom out for a second, Blake, and just think about big

picture, these self-made ideas, which one do you think has made

it most or is most prevalent into the belief of the members

of Grace Church? Well, just even going off of

what Haley and Scofield said, one thing I'm encouraged by if I

can start there. Please, is that OK?

Yes. OK.

One thing I'm encouraged by is I think even as we are opening the

floodgate, so to speak, on some complicated issues, as we've

talked through this, it feels like one of the overwhelming

reactions is just humility around what ways might these

lies be in me. And so that's super encouraging

as I talk to people and hear about conversations.

Like I had a guy come up to me after one of these, one of

Schofield sermons, and which I don't know why he came up after

Schofield sermons, but he just came up to me and was just being

honest about some things that he was learning and how he had seen

some of the pressure of the world get inside of him.

He was just responding to the topics.

So I've been super encouraged by a willing, a church that's

willing to not separate from, but be honest about.

And so I, I think that's been super encouraging.

Because it is easy for for church to go US versus them.

Yeah, inside the culture. Outside the culture, yeah, it's

easy. For us to do US versus them

inside the church. 100%, yeah. You know, Yeah, that's great.

Jesus talked about that I think somewhere.

And so, but to answer the question, I would say I do think

that as I've been just listening, it feels like couple

weeks ago on Schofield walk through just main character

syndrome. Just the idea that the most

important part about me is me, you know, just individualism

really at its finest. I think that really is pervasive

and I don't think it's always malicious.

I don't even know if it's always conscious, but I do think deep

in our subconscious, we live in a culture that tells you to

prioritize yourself above all. And I feel that when people are

coming into our church, how they're thinking about community

and serving. And I feel that in me when I

think about community and serving.

You know, it's just, I think it's pervasive.

I think it's deep within us and I think it has some real

liabilities when we are operating as a bunch of

individuals because Jesus didn't die for us to be individuals

that come to the same building, right?

He came he died for us to be a family, a place where we are not

the most important thing, but we're meaningful as good as I

talked about in that talk, but that we're connected to the most

important thing. And it's interesting.

We wrapped with anxiety. And as I was writing some of

that that talk, I've, I found some some research around

anxiety and this guy was actually kind of zooming out and

looking at the trends of international anxiety, not just

in the States, but internationally.

And there was really two categories that stuck out in the

last few years that experienced little to no increase in anxiety

and depression. And one of those categories was

religious countries. So actually Eastern Europe.

Yeah, Eastern Europe was one of out of all the categories of

Europe, Eastern Europe with Orthodox religion experienced

less increase in anxiety and depression and some of that is

connected to the second group which was Japan and Korea, which

is interesting. Japan and Korea was not because

of religion, but in Japan and Korea, like your last name is

more important than your first name.

And so I think what you find in both of those is just the idea

that I am not the most important thing, but I'm actually

connected to something better. Even my last name, even having a

a healthy pride and a healthy identity and something that's

not Blake but it's a family. It does seem to be that that

produces a lot of freedom. And I think that is what Jesus

has in view for us when he dies for the church.

So I just think that if we as a church can just think about that

and find ways to fight individualism, I think we will

be more free. I think we'll be more healthy,

and I think we will be less self-made.

Yeah, yeah. No, thanks for sharing and I

appreciate the encouragement. We'll we'll call you Barnabas.

Sure from now on, I'll take it. And, you know, I, I, I think

about that faith being a team sport.

You know, some people identify as the family, some people

identify as the team sport. But I think you're right.

Baked in is this idea of individuality.

So I even think of myself as a Christian when really that term

was used to describe a group of people that were living a

certain way. And we've reversed that.

You know, we read the New Testament letters individually

instead of reading them as a church.

And so you're, you're 100% right.

It is, it is baked in. Schofield, can I ask you a

question? Going all the way back, I

believe the week 1 you were quoting from the Library of

Congress. The true Shekinah is man.

Then you describe that using Second Chronicles 7 talks about

the glorious presence of God. As believers though, we do bear

the glorious presence of God within us through the Holy

Spirit. And so the question is how do we

receive the honor and glory that God has given us as image

bearers and Co heirs with Christ but still stay inside the box

that God has given us? What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think it's a good point because it is worth noting.

I mean, you get into chapter one of the Bible and you see that

God creates the world, and then this pinnacle of his creation

project is something that he makes in his own image unlike

anything else he makes, and that is man.

So you could say the true Shekinah's man, or the true most

visible manifestation of God's glorious presence on earth is,

well, man. And that's true.

And I do think that's important to teach on and have a robust

vision on around as we, you know, teach and disciple as a

church, as we parent our children that we have a purpose,

we have dignity, we have value and that is significant.

Like we have significance. And so there's a lot needed

there. There's a lot needed to just

color in the lines for us on what that means and how that

changes things. And I've, I've been doing some

listening and reading lately about the next generation of

boys particularly, and how like they don't understand their why

they exist as our part of our like society has been become so

individualistic and fragmented and digital, we've been

disconnected. And of course, you know, there's

a whole conversation there around specifically the

masculine experience and how we're trying to get rid of toxic

masculinity feels like we kind of wiped away masculinity all

together. So then the boys are kind of

like, so just don't be that. What am I supposed to be?

And so then you should be able to insert in, well, you're an

image bearer. You were created to be a, you

know, a little mini king or queen to represent God's will

and exercise dominion over the earth, to rule, to reign.

So I do want to say that I think the reason we're talking about

that quote in this context is there's another side to that

perspective that says not just that I have significance, but I

create my own significance. And there's no outside source

that provides that for me. It's something that I've

determined, and I'm in competition with everybody else

around me to, you know, to reach as much and create as much of

that as I can. And speaking as a person who has

dealt with those demons, it's bad.

Yeah, it's a lot of pressure. Yeah.

It's just when you think about yourself as the center of the

universe again, at first it it feels like it scratches an itch

until you live that out and you realize how that's actually

terrible. I'd rather have something better

and be a part of something bigger.

It's funny, even in culture, we were talking about this the

other day. I think podcast culture maybe I

was talking about this with you, Scott, just that one of the one

of the, it seems like one of the goals of podcast is insight.

Was that you? OK.

But that's very different than wisdom. 100.

Percent taking those thoughts and ideas and applying.

It's funny, if you just look at the culture, I mean, how many

famous people were just dropping like flies?

Like everything. Everybody kind of knows we can't

really bear the weight, but are we really taking that principle

and letting it change us? You know, I think that's a

question I have as you're walking through some of that.

Yeah, and you did a good job in in your last sermon just talking

about the logical conclusion of all that weight and all that

pressure is a ton of anxiety and just loneliness.

Scofield staying with you, when you talked about main character

syndrome, you brought up the idea of the the John the

Baptists in John chapter 3, which is just a great story.

John 3 · chapter mention

But here's the question. How can the church celebrate the

John the Baptists so that we don't fall victim that thinking

that we all need to be main characters and and reinforce

that stereotype in the church. Yeah, is it First Corinthians?

Help me out, guys, 1213 talking about spiritual gifts and not

despising those that don't get as much public honor.

Yeah, that's right. OK, so that I think is a good

starting point to say, hey, God's giving out gifts.

They represent his power, his glory, his agenda, his

priorities. And they look different and but

they're all reflection of him. But, you know, and so I remember

hearing some older leaders in our our church talk about a guy

that was serving with some of our facilities work.

And you know, it's not the most public, you know, attention

getting work that he was doing. But they knew, they know him

well enough and knew him well enough, knew kind of his

character and just how he spent time in prayer and what he was

doing as he walked around and did what the world would call

like mundane, ordinary things. And they could see something in

him that was very otherworldly, a level of contentment, A level

of others focus, A level of goodness with his box.

And like with spiritual eyes, they could see the power

emanating from that. And so they would joke in a

loving way and talk about how when we get to heaven, well,

he's going to be like the king of the country that we're living

in. We'll go say, hey, can we come

visit your castle? Because the honor that you're

going to get out of your quiet service of faithfulness and the

power of prayer in the ministry far outweighs this may be more

public, traditional view of what, you know, meaningful

giftedness and work and influence can look like.

And so that captures my imagination to say, if we could

have spiritual glasses on and see how God sees, see how the

spiritual realm sees, how would that change the nature of power

and meaning and things that God sees that our world doesn't even

value? And then how do we celebrate

that, You know, how do we point out distinctive giftedness,

personalities, attributes that God's given in someone?

And first of all, it helps us practice self forgetfulness #1

#2 it helps us be a part of something bigger than just

ourselves. And it just starts to kill, I

think, some of that main character syndrome that erodes

our ability to be a part of something bigger and love and be

thankful, you know? And I mean, and I think the

truth is we, we, we could probably do a better job of

telling those kinds of stories, celebrating those folks, even

though those are the least people that want to be

celebrated, but just holding them up as, as examples so that

we see the full body, if you will, You know, that we see the

hands and the feet and the head and the shoulders and all that,

you know, because it does take, it does take everyone.

And, and I think that there's so much emphasis on leading, which

is important because we have a large church and we need people

who are gifted to, to help keep people moving towards this goal

of Christ likeness that sometimes slowing down and

celebrating is not the easiest thing to do.

Yeah. Thinking about how some of these

self-made ideas can be disguised in different forms.

And we've said all along that the church is not immune to to,

to any of these ideas. So thinking about performance

and a performance mentality, which is like you said earlier,

Blake, is just, there's certain things that are deeply ingrained

in us as a culture. But Haley, what does it look

like when the performance mentality creeps in and shows up

in the church and in the way that we think about ministry?

Yeah, I don't think, unfortunately, the church is all

that different than the culture sometimes.

And I'm saying that as a, you know, a personal conviction, not

a condemnation by any means. I think we're human beings and

when we struggle with stuff, we're going to bring it into

whatever settings we're in, even if we're hopefully in the

process of being redeemed out of it.

I think anytime you are in a role that has way and is a need

fills a need, especially if it's something that you're gifted in.

And then especially on top of that, if it, if that's being

validated and you're being affirmed for that being a gift

of yours, I think it's nearly impossible to separate the

performance mentality from it all the way.

And maybe that's just my sickness, but I think I share it

with some people. It's, it's difficult, I think,

because then you start, especially when you've got some

good intentions too. You start wanting to make sure

that in whatever role that you're serving the church, that

you're doing a good job because it matters.

And you want to honor the work that God has done in I'll save

my own life. I want to translate that to

other people in a way that is helpful.

And I want them to feel impacted by, you know, the stories that

God has told for years. And so it's easy to want that so

badly in such a good way that it slowly crosses over into I'm not

OK if I don't do a good job. So I mean, I'll just answer

transparently for, for how this has looked for me.

My role serving has changed a lot over the past couple of

years. And that has put me on a stage a

lot more than I ever have been in my life to this point.

And so I have had to ask myself, Hopefully I'll, I'll continue to

ask it more frequently. But to just be honest with

myself and be willing to evaluate if this serving role,

whatever you want to call it, if it went away forever, if I was

never asked to teach again or if I didn't have a role in the

church quote UN quote anymore #1 how would I feel about that?

And #2 what would that do to like my one-on-one relationship

with the Lord? What would that do to my prayer

life? How would I feel about him?

Would I feel that he values me the same?

Would I with the nature of my connection to God change at all?

Because if I ask myself those questions and my serving role

goes away, and my honest answer is that I'm not the same with

the Lord as you know, as I feel like I am right now.

I think that can raise a red. Flag.

Then you would know the answer to that question.

Yes, because then I think you've started to kind of

inappropriately merge how I'm serving, how I'm showing up at

church, who knows what I'm doing there, who you know, how many

people am I ministering to that starts to get into my

relationship with God and and that's that's the commitment

that I have made. That is the relationship that is

my number one priority. And so nothing theoretically

should change that, whether I have a serving role, whether I'm

exercising my gifts in a public or private way, or whether I'm

not, or if I'm in a situation where, you know, the need hasn't

presented itself for my gifts right now.

And, and I'm just living my life with my fellow believers and

with the Lord. So that's how I'm dealing with

it right now. Yeah, I think that's good

insight, to borrow a phrase from Blake.

What do you think about that, Blake?

Yeah, I think that's good. I mean, I don't have anything to

add to what she sang. A a couple funny things is I was

thinking about when she was talking, you know, I come from

the worship leader world. And so, you know, growing up in

church, they would have this thing called the special.

Y'all familiar? Oh yeah, you.

Familiar with the special Scofield?

I think so. The special music so.

Special music? You think so.

You don't know. You like, you would just know,

you know, which is the moment in the service where you know,

Hilda gets that solo and she's been working on it for a long

time. And, and what's funny is when I

used to do worst auditions like you, just, it's one of the

things you have to pay attention for is like, why are you wanting

to sing? Because when you sing, like

you're very visible. And if you're talented, like

it's just Haley's point, it's real easy to to mix all that up.

And and so I think really even just being a worship leader, I

learned how easy it is to get my identity wrapped up in my

performance and to find life from it.

And really, I can't lead people when I'm finding life from it.

And I just, I agree with Haley too, that, I mean, it happens

for me too. I think one of the things I've

seen is to just be honest about it.

I think that's one of the helpful things just to be honest

about when you're motives are getting sideways.

I think you got to pay attention to it.

And I think that's really helpful.

And if I can give a shout out, I'm really grateful for the

leadership above me here just because you know, being in a,

you know, somewhat upfront role, I think that can easily be a

place where you get twisted. And for years now I've been

grateful because there's obviously standards.

We care about the Bible like you have to.

We're, we're, we're trying. We're not not trying, we're

trying. But I've never felt this

unnecessary pressure to be something that I'm not.

But more so just a healthy pressure to be who I am and to,

you know, pray, ask God what God is leading me to say and think

about. And I'll never forget the first

time I taught. I was just like, this was years

ago. I mean, my stomach obviously was

just in knots. And I go to Matt and he's

outside of the student center. And I'm like, I'm just, I'm

looking for this nugget. Like, I'm waiting for this

moment for him just to tell me to kind of validate my worry,

you know, and tell me how important this is and give me

this deep prayer. And he looked at me and he was

like, yeah, man, go give your best shot.

I'll clean it up next week. And he walked away and I just, I

remember being a little stunned. I was like, does he not care

more? Like I could mess this whole

thing up. And it just was one of the first

moments of many that just was a little bit of a pressure relief

to say, hey, you're actually not that important.

Yeah, don't take yourself too seriously.

You're not that important anyway.

And seriously, if you mess up with, you know, we I'll fix it

next week. It's fine.

And so that moment has is rung is rung loud in my head for for

years. So I'm thankful for that because

naturally, like Haley was saying, I do want to perform.

I do like being liked. And so I think just dying to all

that and reminding yourself that this isn't about you anyway.

Yeah. And you both mentioned we, I use

the word perform. You both mentioned giftings,

whether it be teaching or singing.

That seems to be a little more public.

That could be easily lumped into performance.

A lot of people are listening. They're like, I don't have those

gifts, so I don't have to worry about that.

Let me just give you another word.

And that word might be production, that we want to get

stuff done. We want to produce.

We want to serve and lead and accomplish and meet goals.

And like, none of that is inherently bad.

But we cannot confuse production for fruitfulness.

And the difference goes back to what you were saying, Haley, is

what's the source? Abide in me and you will bear

much fruit If my relationship with God is what fuels

fruitfulness and that's really what's lasting.

And so and I think it's worth bringing in just another

emotion, which is just joy. Like do I experience joy?

Do I experience here would be a question for everybody to ask

two questions. Do I experience more joy doing

ministry or in my relationship with God, my personal devotion?

And not to confuse those. And again, like you talked about

being self aware and honest, and I think that's a really, really

adept skill here. And we probably need some people

to to help us. And then the other question just

more generally is do I enjoy God and how do I express that

enjoyment of him? And if you can answer those

questions affirmatively, just like you said, Haley, then

you're in a good spot. But if you're a little confused

by that, then you might just need to slow down.

You might just need to slow down and really tap into your

relationship with God through the spirit and just say, now

what's my motive? What's my motive?

And and make sure that we don't bring the the self-made

mentality too much into our spirituality because it's easy

to do. I think even it's a good point

about upfront things, I think even just people that are off

the stage, I do think it can also be, I think one way you

know, you're struggling with this is if you are trying to

work something off. So like, if you're serving

because home's not going well but performing, showing up,

knocking some things out at church makes you feel better

about your inability to be loving and kind at home.

So you're making a trade? You're making a trade.

Yeah, I think there's an. I think that's another way that

performance culture shows up, is we're finding security from our

ability to perform as a volunteer, as a leader.

You know, it doesn't have to be as a teacher or singer, right?

I think it happens all over. Yeah, we're trying to prove

something, maybe not earn something, but definitely seek

something. And so we're missing at the core

the relationship with God and the way God views us through

Christ, Right? Yeah, those are good words,

guys. I think we should pivot to our

second to the last teaching, which was around sex and

happiness. And we kind of previewed this

from week one when we talked about desires.

And we said that chief amongst all desires was this notion of

sex and happiness. And that's a big topic,

Scofield, and, and you did a great job tackling it.

But I know that there are several things that you probably

wish you could have given more attention to or maybe clarified

a little bit. So this is this is a good forum

for that. So what are some thoughts just

coming off of that teaching? Yeah.

I mean, I think just to zoom out before we zoom in, I mean, it's

just, it's what we're trying to say is that, you know, sex is

God, God's idea. It's his gift that he gave for a

purpose. And so, you know, it's not, it's

not insignificant. It's actually really important

like to our spiritual formation, how we react and relate to sex,

sexual energy or sexuality. And so that's where the culture

is halfway right is it is a big one, right?

And it's significant. And so, but I think the two

things that we tried to take away was how you deal with your

sexual desires is one of the most important ways that you,

your faith is revealed. Frankly, who you believe has the

good life, where it comes from, where satisfaction comes from,

where fulfillment comes from, and then #2 impacts how we view

and how we practice love and how we view other people and the

purpose of life. And so with that in mind, I

think one of the things that we talked about is how important it

is to be known, like for our sexual formation story, our

past, our present, our struggles, our temptations,

where our desires are conflicting with gods.

And I think that's true. And I think we need to keep

saying that, that we need to be known.

We need to do what the Bible says, which is live in the

light, and that's literally, you know, a way to combat

temptation, lies that are so clever, you know, all that.

And so that is true. I think the thing I would wish I

had probably said as well is at the same time, no one can obey

God for me. So while I need to be known,

there's a next step there, which is I got to go figure out if I

say I believe that God is good, how is my life going to begin to

look more the way that he wants it to?

What action steps am I going to take to fight temptation?

Flee temptation? A phrase that I used to use with

students all the time is to fight the battle before the

battle, to be strategic and think about sin is empty.

So therefore I'm going to begin to move in a new route.

And I was reading a book recently that talked about

disruptive action. And this author said that more

change is possible than you would think, but it requires

more disruptive action than you would think.

And so let me just say, like for anyone listening to this that's

going, I want freedom. I want progress.

Like the Holy Spirit is available to us and power and

change is possible. And we have to be willing to do

more than we might think. Like we got to put the work in,

in hidden moments where nobody's watching and no accountability

partner can or no church can do anything.

You know, for me that God's called me to do because of my

faith and my relationship with him.

And so stacking up repetitions of faith and obedience over and

over and over again, I think is what unlocks new kinds of

momentum towards sexual freedom and transformation.

And spiritual maturity, I think about second Peter, one says by

God's divine power, he's given you everything you need for

living a godly life, everything you need.

But he doesn't say he does it for you right now.

And so God doesn't call you just to something without giving you

the power and the ability to do. It'd be really cruel if that's

what he did and that's not who he is.

But he also gives you the option to avail yourself of that power

or not, right? So I think that's a really good

distinction. And if I can just say, I think

some of this is generational, like I don't, I don't want to

speak for the generation that came before me, but it seems

like our generation has said we need to talk about these things

and why and our feelings and what's going on and what's

driving some of this beneath the surface versus just behavior

modification. Maybe the pendulum is swinging

so far, though, that we're wanting to be known so much that

we're not ambitious around what actually going and doing could

look like and needs to look like.

And we just it's gonna be a lonely process that's not all

that comforting, but it really does like line up with a

biblical definition of discipleship, repentance,

following Jesus is I gotta go to work on this, you know?

Yeah, that's good, Scofield. And diving in a little bit on

two specific things that can be a little tricky.

Can you talk about both spousal consent and the danger of

outsourcing our conscience to the spousal consent and then

also revisit the topic of masturbation?

Yeah. Those are easy ones.

Let's revisit since that was not miserable to talk about round

one. Why not No, we we had a a

conversation with a couple pastors about this and that this

is a big thing. This goes back to the definition

of or the gift like with the Y for the gift that God gave us

this gift. What did we say?

If you listen to the series for the for the opportunity to love

another and to be united with another so that this others

oriented love, this service sacrifice to put someone before

me and to bring joy and pleasure to them can overflow into

fruitfulness in the world. And so masturbation, like it's a

common question. Is it really wrong?

Is it something that I shouldn't, you know, and again,

it's not that that's not something you can talk about,

but it feels like, once again, what are we starting from?

What are we thinking about? You know, is this something that

I'm entitled this kind of pleasure?

And again, it's not that all pleasures bad and our you know,

our sexual desires are bad. It's just, I think once again,

we're missing the point. This is not about us self

satisfying, self gratifying. This is about something that God

gave us to point us to other people and to how we can love

them in the context that he gave this gift for.

Within that same conversation, the ideas come out.

Well, I mean, take masturbation for example, or looking at

inappropriate content or other kinds of things that are outside

the bounds. We've had folks at times say,

well, it's OK. Like I talked to my wife about

it. She's good.

Or my husband and I have discussed this and so, and the

point is, and so help us understand how that's relevant.

How is it that your wife or your spouse is the one who you're

outsourcing your conscience to? Isn't it like God that we're

trying to obey here and that we answer to?

And who's the one? So I just think we should call

that out if, if we have temptation to say, well, as long

as the people around me are pleased, then I'm good.

And like, that's really, that's too low of a view.

Like we're actually following Jesus and hopefully dragging

people around us in that same direction.

And so, but it's easy to start to rationalize, justify because,

well, it's what I want. What did you just say?

We're following Jesus. And what are we doing?

Oh. I don't know what did I say?

Dragging other people there with us.

Oh, dragging other people. There, I've never heard that,

but I really. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah. Again, I, I think you get into

this like it's one thing to talk about when you're in a small

group, but when you're in your house with your people and you

want what you want, right? It is very impressive how we can

rationalize and even rally people to our desires.

And instead, we should be rallying people to God and Jesus

in the like conviction of the Holy Spirit in our life,

regardless of what the crowds around us or the people beside

me in my bedroom are saying. Yeah, that's a good word.

That's a good word. Who has the ultimate authority?

And we did want to take just a moment, I mean, recognizing that

we have hundreds, hundreds of singles in our congregations.

And so, Haley, I just wanted to ask if you would speak into this

question. So the idea is, if God created

us as sexual beings and gives us sexual desires which are good

things, but then he doesn't provide the boundaries for that

through marriage, then what does sexuality look like for a single

if it's not repressed? It's a great question.

Yes, as our single in the room, I will do my best to speak to

this. There's a lot of people who are

experts more than me, but I'll try to offer a couple of

thoughts and I do before I say anything else, I do want to

start with a little bit of a compassionate tone because I'm

hoping that we're we land with this is actually really

motivated and inspired. But I don't want that to come at

a cost to recognizing the grief that can come with feeling a

desire to connect and to, you know, be in a covenantal

relationship on earth and to have a family and all of that.

I mean, that's real grief and that's real loss, especially

when that's something that you might have pictured for yourself

that's not always promised. So I do recognize that that is

painful and I have felt that many times that this is not

where I thought my life would be at 29, but it is.

And so let me just acknowledge that before I say anything else,

that there is a lot of pain there.

And it is something that we've got to be willing to not just

shove because it feels whatever you want to call it, silly,

selfish, consuming, you name it. I think a lot of times we can

push off kind of the death of a dream and and not want to feel

it. So I do think we need to

acknowledge it. Yeah.

Thank you for saying that. Yes.

But with all that said, I think this is a is a powerful concept,

but it's not an isolated concept.

I think sexual desire and the desire for marriage and for

hopefully a family that might come out of that.

I think it is a desire and it's a strong desire, but there are a

lot of other desires and most people, I would actually say all

people don't get all their desires.

So I actually think you can actually elevate this

conversation above the actual concept of sex to the idea of

desire dream or you know what, you picture expectations for

your life in general and just begin to ask the question, OK,

well, what is it? How do I respond when a desire

is unmet or when I believe that not acting on a desire is the

way that I follow God? So I think we can actually find

empathy from more people than just single people.

I think it can be easy to kind of sometimes create a little

insulated bubble where you're spiraling thoughts around a

single community sometimes. But I don't think that we are

alone in what we're feeling. I think married people can

understand the idea of a desire not being met and not being able

to. Exercise every desire that

crosses your mind. With that said, I do think there

are some unique parts of singleness in this conversation

because I mean, what we're saying is that I have a desire

that God made me to have that he is asking me not to exercise

with, with the without any guarantee that I'll ever get to.

So I think really I, I don't have a ton of new thoughts other

than what I've already said about other topics even earlier

in this conversation. I think it really does come down

to when God and I disagree on something where which choice am

I going to make? Am I going to choose him or am I

going to choose me? And why am I making that choice?

Because all of this sexuality, singleness, and really

everything we've covered in this self-made series I think come

comes back to Do I believe that the life God has asked us to

live is actually the best life a human can live?

Or do I not? And that sounds maybe overly

simplified, but for me, I guess with the luxury of getting to

think about this material for a year, that's about how I boil it

down at this point. Who do I believe has the ticket

to the best life for a human? And am I willing to walk that

way even if it costs me or if it's difficult or if it means

repressing desires sometimes? Who?

Whose life do I think is better? Is it the one that I've scripted

for myself or the one that my creator told me is the way that

he wants us to live in unity with him?

So that's one one way that I kind of think about it again,

not to negate the difficulty of it.

That sounds almost like a trite statement, but it actually I

think does summarize a lot of self-made.

The other thing that I've thought about from time to time,

it's just the idea that marriage and, and by, you know, by proxy,

we're lumping sex and its proper use into that is, as God told

us, the symbol of how he relates to his people.

That's the best example we have on earth of the relationship

that he desires with us. And though I don't have the

symbol and I'm not promised the symbol on this side of heaven, I

do have the reality. And my relationship with God is

actually the fullness of what marriage symbolizes.

And that does not make me feel better most of the time, but

every once in a while it does. And I hope that that percentage

gets higher over the course of time.

So I think just trying to remember that, that being known,

being loved, companionship, sharing dreams together, making

each other's gifts, you know, more celebrated.

That's the relationship that I get to have with Jesus.

If I can try to walk in more close fellowship with him over

the course of time, it's a lot harder 'cause he's not

physically here. I'm not trying to gloss over

that, but the reality of what marriage symbolizes is available

to me. I'm not.

I might miss out maybe on some things on earth, but I'm not

missing out on the eternal by the sake of being single.

So again, that helps occasionally and hopefully more

so overtime. Well, that is singing a better

song. That's a trying.

It's a beautiful effort to sing a better song.

And I think that's where we really want people to, once

they've understood the context, they get the ideas of self-made,

they're able to recognize it. Pervasiveness in the culture,

how we drag it into the church. We turn our attention constantly

into singing a better song. So guys, as we just rap, when we

think about what Haley just shared a better song and

singleness when we think a better song in our life,

workplace, home, what other what other ideas, big picture ideas

do you guys have when we're thinking about this better song?

One more thought and it's a little bit coming out of

singleness, but not entirely. I think in thinking about this

content and particularly singleness as the years have

gone on, I think getting my head really around the fact that this

part on Earth is the short part, that there's there's another

part of my existence that's waiting for me.

And this part on earth is the shortest part of that.

And it's the hardest part of that.

If I can really believe that and believe that the intentions of

God for what unity and full eternal life with him is going

to be, it actually is way better than here, then it gives me a

lot of perseverance and grit that sometimes you just got to

stick it out through a life that might have a lot of unmet

desires and a lot of grief and a lot of tragedy and a lot of self

denial. I mean, that's that's what a

life with the war between flesh and spirit inside of us.

I think it's the recipe for what we're dealing with.

And so if I can actually believe that, am I willing to live my

life with a lack? And do I really believe that

this is the short part? And if I will stick it out and

be faithful that I am headed for an existence that has no

disappointment, that has no discouragement, that has no

loneliness, none of that, then I really believe that that is as

good as he promises and that his character is as good as he

promises. Then no sacrifice and no choice

that I make for him on this short little stint of my

existence will be a regret to me, I don't think at the end of

the day. To answer your question, Scott,

about, you know, singing a better song.

I mean, for me it's been a lot of the opposite of main

character syndrome, you know, like I think about finding joy

in the success of others. I think about being a part of

God's story, spending time with the main character and learning

to say that the box that God gave me is good.

Learning how to embrace my lot in life 'cause there's so much

goodness, you know, I guess it makes, I don't know if this is a

good way to think about it or not, but when I think about the

garden and how there was the knowledge of good and evil and

that that from that tree you're not supposed to eat, it is funny

to me. Like we point out like why would

God do that? Why would God put that in front

of them? It's kind of like, but at the

same time, he also like said, hey, here's the whole earth,

right? You know, so it's ironic how

much we focus on what we don't get.

I do think if we could focus more on what we do and then

that's different for everybody. Well, I'm going to say that's

going to be mine is pushing back against the scarcity mentality

and embracing abundance, the abundance that I have first of

all in Christ. But then God has given me so

many resources that I, I need to be content and I need to express

gratitude. And that's really going to guard

my heart in a lot of ways. And then I need to express

generosity. And I think a lot of that draws

me near to the heart of God as far as singing, singing a better

song. And I just want to say like, I

think this is the point of the church.

Like we could probably pull out a bunch of different scriptural

references about how you can connect that concept of singing

better song and being a witness to the death, like the what the

goal of the church is. And my thing would be that

shouldn't the church be a place where when we say what is a

better song look like, you have a bunch of different melodies, a

bunch of different, you know, orchestrations and beats and

rhythms and instruments? Because all of us are living

embodiments of something better than what the world was

promising to us. But I think we should be jealous

and hungry and experts for it. And, you know, we should be, you

know, we should be recording and putting in front of others and

celebrating those kinds of stories.

And but you know, it's not easy, like the better song would be

happening if it was easy. Like Jesus describes, just let's

acknowledge, like he describes his way as narrow and, and you

know, but it's the way to life. And so to me, the church should

be the hub, right? The rally point where we can say

here's what the better song could look like.

Here's what looks like in her and him.

And so for me, I'll say one more thing.

I just want to be a part of something bigger than me.

Like the idea of finding joy in the success of another, whether

it's a friend or it's a family member, it's just or it's just

our church. That's really beautiful to me.

As someone who I've said in the talks is exhausted by a default

setting that is worried about me.

Like to be lost in who God is and to be lost in another and to

be able to enjoy other humans. I thought that's where we're

headed and we could go ahead and get a taste of that today.

We can go ahead and start living a little bit more like that now.

Yeah, you stole my answer, Scott.

So now I don't know what to say. Dang man, no, I was just going

to say I think I think gratitude when I am grateful, when I write

those things down and speak those things out loud, it

reminds me of God's abundance. And I think for me, one of the

way, one of the reasons I don't sing a better song is because

I'm moving too fast and I get caught up.

And I think a lot of us are moving a little too fast.

And I think if we would slow down long enough to just right

now what God's been doing in our life, I actually think we would

sing a better song more often. Because how you going to deny

when God answers the prayer that you've been praying for for five

years? That's a good point.

And so I think some of it is just slowing down enough to see

God working. There's this passage in Isaiah.

I was talking to Haley about this the other day.

It says the people never think about the Lord, so they don't

know what he's doing. They don't notice what he's

doing. And I think that's, so that's

one of the traps. One of the reasons why we don't

sing a better song is because we're so busy all the time, we

don't notice what God is up to. And I think if we could just pay

attention, get our eyes up and see what he's doing around us, I

think it would be easier to combat the lie of the enemy.

So that's what I'm trying to do personally is I'm trying to in

my home, I want our home to be a place where we are regularly

grateful for what God is doing. And so whether that's little

rocks in a jar or a cork board on the wall, whatever corny tool

we want to use, like I want me, my wife, my daughters to grow

up. And when somebody says, hey,

how's God been good to you? Obviously the cross.

But then I want them to have like vivid memories from how God

showed up, how God is better, you know.

And so I think gratitude is one of the ways that I try to fight

this. And it's, it's really helped

keep me connected to the abundance of life in Christ.

Yeah, this week I was doing some teaching with our interns.

We were looking at Matthew 22 and Jesus to the Pharisees, to

the Pharisees. Now he says you don't know the

Scriptures, you don't know the power of God.

And then he goes on to say, 'cause they're trying to trick

him about what's the greatest commandment.

And he says love the Lord your God, heart, soul, mind, and

strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.

So fully devoted to God and then fully devoted to other people

and celebrating their successes and seeing the world through

gratitude and having a vision for a future day, the Kingdom of

God, the presence of it now and the promise of it in the future.

I think those are all parts of our daily practice, what it

means to sing this better song. So I'm grateful for all of you.

Thank you for your time today. Thank you for your time on this

series. And I don't think this is one

that we're going to turn the page on.

I think we're going to be here working through these themes for

a while. And so I'm really, really

grateful for all that. So thank you.

Thank you, Scott. Thanks, Scott.