EP 48: Back to the Beginning—The Grace Church Origin Story

This is a a different way to look at church and it's not it's

something it's who you are and what we're doing, not what we're

going to. And so go back to your box

checking thing and we we said this, this is a different deal.

This is an all in kind of we're going to make this get all over

us in area, every area of our lives, our marriage, raising

kids and and I just don't think at the time there was anything

that we had a context for that that church did that to you.

You know, the local church was again this thing that you're a

part of and you go to, but not that becomes so much a part of

who you are in your relationship with Jesus.

Well, we have a full studio today because we are looking

back and celebrating the 30th anniversary of Grace Church.

So I'm joined by Matt Williams, Vicki Williams, Tom Merritt and

Bill White as we're going to do a little reflecting and

storytelling and just catching up.

So welcome everybody. Thanks to be here.

Thanks for having us. Matt, I have heard you say many

times that you are not a church planter, but you did plant a

church. You planted this church.

So why? Why Grace Church?

It's a good question Mark. You know, when Vicki and I met

at Clemson, we were both immersed in Fellowship of

Christian athletes and we both came from a little different

backgrounds, but we were having a common experience along with a

bunch of other students of doing ministry.

We were seeing people come to faith.

We were college students in Bible study and they were

growing and, and you know, we had friends that were at, with

crew and Ruf and other. So it was Clemson at that time

was a very fertile, spiritually, very fertile place.

And so lots of really neat things were happening.

And I think we got a, we got a taste for ministry while we were

there and decided to go to seminary and didn't know what

we're going to do with that. And I didn't know if it was on

staff with FCA or a businessman who disciples other businessmen

or so I wasn't thinking much about church work, but I knew

that was a possibility. So we moved out there and we got

to see some churches that were very different than anything

that we had grown up seeing. We got to see some of the

vibrancy that we were seeing in college student ministry.

And we thought, oh, that could happen in little church.

And I've already overstated my observations.

I actually didn't even connect that many dots.

Vicki was really the one connecting dots.

And we'd be riding to church and be like, you know, our church is

great. And I thought, yeah, it is.

She's, you know, where we come from, there aren't as many

churches that are doing this kind of ministry.

I'm like, no, there's not. And then, you know, somebody I

want to start church like, like I'm a granted, I'm like, what

are we talking about? So I'll just, I'll just kick it

to you and you can talk about what you were thinking during

that time because you were making those observations in

more concrete ways. And I was, I was overwhelmed

with being there, having to go to school, learn.

And I think you were starting to connect dots about what what we

might want to be a part of, what we might want to do.

Yeah. How did you see something like

what you were experiencing in the Dallas Fort Worth area

translate to the Upstate? Because this is home for you,

This is where you grew up. So what kind of thoughts are you

having doing these? Four years of school.

Yeah, I think the idea was just we got to go there and and the

church we were most involved in, just that we were members of was

an amazing church with lots of great Bible teaching that we had

really not been exposed to other than a few times by that same

pastor through para church ministry.

And so it just kind of opened my eyes to even the idea of really

understanding the Bible and hearing teaching for the first

time. And then we also visited other

churches that were doing lots of neat things that we had just

never seen with at that time, small group ministries and

things like that, that we had just had not been exposed to.

And so it felt like they were able to do discipleship in a

different way than what we had seen.

And I think I was just kind of jealous for, I thought about all

of our friends that we had been in FCA with back at Clemson.

And I thought, I want them to have this too.

I mean, it really was this kind of, as simple as that idea is, I

thought there's a lot of people that just haven't been exposed

because it's, it's not the same area of the USI mean.

And, and I even met a girl at the beginning of seminary, which

I was kind of dumbfounded by this idea.

We were sitting around at a Bible study one night and she

had grown up in a church like that.

So she was almost at that time, I was probably 20-3 ish and she

was like 28 and she'd never seen a church that was any different.

And I just couldn't, I couldn't get my mind wrapped around it.

And so I think it just helped build that passion in me for

like, this could be really neat to, you know, to expose other

people to this idea of growing and learning.

I just could not get enough. Every week we could not wait.

We drove 50 minutes to church, like close to an hour, and we

could not wait to get there and hear the teaching that week.

So then how, when does the idea of doing this for the two of you

coming back home and doing this, is that a real idea in your mind

at some point? I think it became more real.

We were there four years. We we looked at 2 year program

for him and then it kind of ended up shifting to the four

year program. And so during that time, that

last couple of years that he was in school, I think it began to

kind of we were talking about it more.

And then that last year he was actually having meetings with

people around some friends from seminary to kind of see if

anybody had any interest in a church like this or.

And just trying to, we're just putting feelers out, trying to

understand what you would do to, you know, start a church like

this and what it would look like.

Yeah, it's probably hard to for some listeners to think church

planting is part of the normal vocabulary.

But are people playing churches 30 years ago?

Yeah. She met a friend, a guy named

Judy, Judy Hayes, and we went to dinner with them and I didn't

know her husband yet from said we were in school together, but

I hadn't met him yet. And we just got talking that

night. Like what what does he want to

do? And he goes, I'm playing a

church. And I thought that's the

nuttiest thing I've heard. Also like I guess they do got to

start. I guess that is the truth.

I just I don't think that idea had ever really crossed my mind.

And he talked about it and very practical terms, you know, and

was very clear that that's what he wanted to do.

And I think that just the idea that that could happen along

with these experiences that Vicki and I are having where I

mean, if I'm just being honest, that that the church world I

grew up in, it was obligatory. You just went, it was something,

it was a box that you checked. I don't think people were

thinking in terms of learning and growing and being disciples

and passing that on. They were just thinking in terms

of I met a requirement this week by going to church, by being a

part of that one hour experience.

And we were experiencing something very different.

And it and is as she put words to it, I thought, yeah, and of

course I can be super reductionistic.

I'm like, how hard can it be? And so I'm up for it.

It doesn't take much to talk me into something because I'm like,

well, that's not going to be the hard.

So yeah, sure, we'll do it for a while.

Would you like to start stuff? I do like to start stuff.

Yeah, so I mean, what? Start church?

You know, I look at guys driving semis down the road and always

think, well, there's too many doing it to be hard.

I guess probably the craziest thought it was probably super

hard, but I was just dumb like that.

So we did. That's what we spent my last

year there talking to guys. I I took a class about church

planting and I start talking to a group of guys who were doing

and they just knew more than I did.

And they were handing me books and resources and we just began

exploring the idea. And, and we were thinking about

going to Atlanta. And I talked to our pastor and

he said, you know, I would. I said, how would you make a

decision about where to plant a church?

And we've already really made the decision.

We're going to Atlantic. I knew a couple of businessmen

there. And he said, you know, you want

to go probably to a college town because of the kind of teaching

that you're going to want to do that that environment will fit.

And he goes and you want to go to a town with people that you

care about because after 10 years and it fails, you still

want to feel good about what you did.

I was like, man, that is some encouraging part.

Let's start, OK, let's go. And I drive back home.

I thought, well, I don't really care about anybody in Atlanta.

I didn't mean it in a bad way. I just had it, you know, I don't

have. That's OK, most people live here

now. It's and I can see why you got

to get out of Atlanta that Dr. exertable and we had friends

like Vicki said that were graduating Clemson and coming to

Greenville area and should we knew some people here because

Vicki was from here and then the the connection with Clemson to

here. And I thought, well, that's

pretty good advice and that let's do that.

Let's try to go to Greenville and do this and then we'll just

and I really did have like 2 years in my head, maybe maybe

three years, because it was not something that I could foresee.

The idea of having to stand in front of people and teach was a

real daunting idea and made me real nervous.

And as it turns out, it still does that to me.

I like to teach and I like to explain things to people.

They get tired of it, but I like to do it in private.

I having to stand in front of a bunch of people and explain

stuff has been more challenging. So I wasn't really thinking I

want to be a pastor long term. And so all that had to just kind

of frog in the kettle kind of thing had to come slowly over

time. So it took me a little while to

get used to that idea. And so, Vicki, when you talked

about this emphasis on discipleship, what were some

some of the specific pieces like around the teaching?

But what kind of teaching and how is that incorporated into

worship? Like what were some of those

things that you were like? We're going to bring this back

into a church setting. Yeah.

I think it was like obviously teaching expositional teaching

kind of from the pulpit area from teaching on Sunday morning

just. Just try to go verse by verse.

Verse by verse, learning a hopefully kind of learning to

grasp a whole book of the Bible at the time and also seeing how

it connects to other parts of Scripture that I had just never,

I just never seen the Bible. Yeah, I've seen in a lot of

churches. And so I heard, you know,

different passages taught well and fine, but all separate and

not something that was like, oh, this is God's story, you know.

And so I really, I think, and then the idea of connecting what

we called contemporary worship, you know, which is kind of

outdated now, but 30 years ago it was, it was the buzzword, I

guess. So it's just bringing that the

idea of worship connecting a little bit to what you've heard

to to given a real kind of responsive experience there with

worshipping. And then also just the idea of

hopefully with small groups to be able to study God's Word

together and get people actually reading their Bibles and

studying God's Word and not just coming to church once a week.

And that's kind of all they do. And if they do ministry, it was

like the people we knew that were involved in ministry, a lot

of them were all at least younger people, younger

generation. We're all outside the church.

It wasn't as much participating. And we were like, this is the

church's job, to be able to impact the community, the world,

people, you know, connecting with people.

Yeah, that seems to be a big idea for a lot of us in the room

because we had this experience at college through something

that was not the local church, where discipleship was

emphasized and we were really growing.

But then how do you put it back into this local church context

that for a lot of times looked ritualistic?

You know, you mentioned responsive, you know, and

connected to life, whereas a lot of times church just seemed to

be ritualistic and box checking. And so you're moving back and

you're going to do that. You got to start calling some

friends, I guess, to do that. And I think we've got about 40%

of the first church meeting in this room right now.

Yeah. What does that?

How does that look like? How do you get started?

Three weeks before I had Maddie, our first child, I was 37 weeks

and he flew back to have a meeting.

I talked to a guy that was here in town, we went to Clemson and

he was part of a singles Bible study and I made-up a flyer.

I mean, I'm real good with graphic communications, y'all.

So I made-up this amazing flyer and I sent it to him, I said.

Hey stick figures on it I think. That's right, I said, hand this

out at your singles Bible study. We're thinking about coming to

Greenville Planet Church and see if anybody wants to come.

And and I got some information to Tom and said, hey, invite

people. So we we met at the Shoney's on

White Horse Road. I flew here and we had a meeting

on AI. Guess it was like a Sunday night

and like 30 people came and I, it was a, it was we, we had some

visuals of what church could be like and I got along to it and,

and we got, there was a moment we got about 20 or 30 minutes

into it where I don't know, man. It just felt like this makes

sense. And I was explaining something

and it felt like we would call it now athletically, I was in

the flow. It just it's I was like, OK, OK,

what was that? There was just this moment that

felt like we're casting vision, leading people and people are

getting it. And I was like, that was

unbelievable. And.

The physicality of that moment, it's for you it.

Was just, it was amazing. And so then we so and I, we got

a great response. People are super interested,

3035 people. And then, you know, we come in

June and we start and none of those people want to do it.

I was like, OK, so emotion plays a role and it may not be

reality. OK, You thought something

happened that didn't happen. And Charlie Anderson came and

did that meeting as well. Yeah, Charlie came, he was a, he

helped put together all this graphic stuff and we

communicated some of that and he was thinking about coming and

helping too. So it was great.

And but then then you know, the the idea of being a part of

something new versus actually leaving your church that is part

of your family tradition and your spiritual, that's a very

different thing. Back then, people didn't just

jump around the I mean, you were born somewhere and you kind of

stayed there and that's what you did so.

And people were there weren't a ton of people moving into the

area. No, that's not me.

People were not moving in here. This it was a good town.

I mean, it was stable, but it was not exploding or anything

like that. So, but we, we come a couple

months later and we start meeting and people, you know,

this just the, the initial vibe is not, it's not energetic.

And so we have a dinner with Tom and Allison, which is, you know,

they're so hospitable and you know, we're, they're starting to

have kids and we've got one. And so we're there's hey, come

over, we'll get some dinner, gin, gins and easily.

And so we go. Pick Shawnie's.

It was done. We go, we go pick up dinner and

I mean, we're out and I'm like, I'm so waited.

So we're running an errand while we're getting the food.

And I'm like, Tom's just being Tom.

He's normally he's doing, he's doing business, he's doing his

stuff. And I was like, hey, man, can I

just, are you going to help us or not?

And he's like, because we're supposed to wait till dinner to

where we're going to talk about this, But I'm like, he, he acts

like that. There's not my life's not

hanging in the balance. He acts like this a normal day

for him. I'm over here.

Dying and we talked all the way over there and before we're like

are they going to just are they having this for dinner because

they're going to just like let us down easily or at this or are

they wet We don't know and I've. Been over going, so am I.

Is this a binary system that we're signing up for?

Am I and is A down line or is B down line?

I don't even know what we're doing Starting a church.

He has no. Do I have to sell soap?

What am I doing? He has no concept what we're

doing. So he goes, yeah, yeah, we're

good to jump in. I was like, OK, so we got that.

And then we really did start on June 4th in his living room.

And there was just. Five of us or so.

Even Charlie and Terry had not moved here yet.

We had Vicky's sister helping with children and we had another

couple from Texas that we had gotten in contact with and they

were, but they are not there yet.

And then when they jumped in and we're like, OK, there's a couple

from College Station or somewhere they had, they had

been familiar with the kind of church we want to do.

But then after like a month or whatever, he got transferred

back to Texas. So they did have us over for

dinner to tell us we're out, We're leaving.

So the congregation struck by like 3040% in one night, sis.

I mean, and we, we, and that's really how it started.

It was very organic, very slow, very small.

And that was not something there were other things like what we

were doing happening in Greenville, but it was there was

a seeker version, there was a Reformed Baptist version.

There were people doing that. But we none of us knew each

other. So it just seemed like you were

alone in the world and you're starting from which is true and

you're starting from scratch and all that's good and healthy.

But yeah, it started. To say it started small and slow

is extremely accurate. That's what happened.

Tom, why do you want to get involved?

When did you begin to see the vision for what local church

that focused on discipleship and had some of these key elements

that Vicki was talking about? When did you begin to?

Format. I don't want to make light of

that Shoney's meeting because for real, I think that was it.

That was a good moment for you and it really did help us

understand the concept of making disciples and making tour

followers of Jesus Christ. And that's what we want to what

we're still trying to do. And there were some good

churches around and I, but they were good for different reasons.

And I think what we knew was what we knew, except what Matt

and Vicki have already talked about, that there was this

element that I really met. I met Jesus in a authentic way

through a pair of church ministry in college, through

FCA, the man who poured into me, poured into Matt and some other

guys that I knew. And still today I have a

relationship with him and he's still doing ministry.

And So what I saw was a lifelong, not occupation, but

passion for people wanting to impact lives.

And we've had a lot of iterations of that over the

years of life on life and things that we've tried to communicate

this concept. But I think that night Allison

and I said, OK, this, this is a a different way to look at

church and it's not it's something it's who you are and

what we're doing, not what we're going to.

And so go back to your box checking thing and we we said

this, this is a different deal. This is an all in kind of we're

going to make this get all over us in area, every area of our

lives, our marriage, raising kids and.

And I just don't think at the time there was anything that we

had a context for that that church did that to you.

You know, the local church was again, this thing that you're a

part of and you go to but not that becomes so much a part of

who you are in your relationship with Jesus.

And again, not belittling any experiences we had had or other

churches where we were going, but it it smelled, felt,

sounded, looked different than anything we had seen.

And man, Vicki did a great job of explaining and I know they

reference Tommy Nelson and Denton Bible and and we had

heard him teach and were captivated and I think to MO.

The other thing was I started to realize the giftedness that you

see in the body of Christ is important for the local church

to thrive at its Max. And Matt's just a a gifted

teacher, and I always make fun of him saying he's an

entrepreneur, A businessman trapped in a preacher's body.

And I think that's why it was easier because I knew kind of

the mojo he had of wanting to to do something well.

And I was like, this would be amazing if church is the next

thing that we're a part of with them doing, trying to do very

well. Yeah.

And it's interesting when you're talking about starting something

being small and giftedness, you, you got to use everybody, right?

Everybody's got to be a part of that.

So in some ways, the idea of being in Ephesians 4, equipping

church from the ground up, but you didn't have another choice.

But it's the right choice. And that's, I mean, we said it a

couple times, like reason why we're talking and telling a

little bit this just a story is want everybody to see.

These are still the same ideas that are foundational to week in

week out, not just our service gatherings, but all the things

that are happening that make Grace Church Grace Church like

they really kind of form around just a few big, big ideas.

Can you guys talk about people on top?

We're going to hit a few different milestones and kind of

Fast forward through some life of the church moments, but I'd

love it if you would talk about the Johnstons and the proctors.

Talk a little bit about how people have really helped shape

make what people know of Grace Church Now possible.

Yes, I'd love to. Wendell and Martha Johnston,

they are were a couple that had kind of mentored us in Dallas.

As a matter of fact, Wendell Johnston at the time we lived

out there was my boss at the seminary.

He was the executive vice president at Dallas Seminary.

And we just got connected to them over time and would dog sit

for them. And they had three grown sons

that were all pastors all around the world.

Like I had never really even experienced a family like that,

just the way they were on mission, every moment of their

life. That's just how they live.

And I'm even down to Wednesday mornings at seminary.

He made sure everybody around was coming in for prayer time.

You know, he's, you know, huddling everybody up just at

the beginning of our Wednesday morning work day.

And so anyway, but they were just super impactful to us all

the way around from the get go of just how they live their

lives and what they gave their lives to.

But then when we got closer and closer to leaving Dallas and

knew we were going to be coming back here to start a church,

they ended up, and Matt might want to tell the story, but they

ended up supporting us financially for the first couple

of years. They actually had a foundation

that their family usually typically gave money to support

students, international students to come to seminary with, said

they had never supported a church plant before.

But they decided to latch on to the idea of what we were doing

after we had already committed to coming.

So we didn't know we had the support.

But anyway. And then ever since then, I just

think the biggest thing with their life, just them being

faithful followers and believers.

They have prayed for us every single day since we started

Christ Church. And I can't really talk about

them without crying. Miss Johnston passed away a

little over a year ago. Every time I would speak to him

on the phone. I pray for you every day.

And I just feel like a couple like that they have, even though

they've never been to a service, they've never attended a

service, they have so much stake and investment in the lives of

the people here. It's, you know, I don't know,

it's hard for me to get my mind around honestly.

So. So I love that.

Yeah, and he's 95 also. Yeah, now what kind of?

You know, when we would eat dinner with them, it would be

Vicki and Wendell are on that side and Martha and me over here

talking because our that's how our personalities lined up.

And it was a lot of fun. And Martha was straight shooter

and she's real direct. Wendell's the sweet 1.

So I would I would do work for Martha.

I'd clean her gutters and fix the window and fix the door and

paint and do stuff more. And she was stand out there and

talk to me the whole time and I would ask her questions.

And these are people who had given their whole lives the

ministry. They hit trains when that they

would go out of town. This kind of deal it is, is that

they go out of town. So I'd go before cell phones,

I'd go to their drawer with the phone where you keep your phone

book and all that. And I get his personal phone

book out and I would just look through and it was a catalog of

all the famous Christians in America, like evangelicals,

people all over the country that were presidents of seminaries,

Bible colleges. And you would just meet Wendell.

You would they call. He was on the phone with them

all the time. They're getting advice and

counsel from him. And I would never have known

that I knew, I knew a couple of his good friends just because

they were living in Dallas. But he and I would go walk in

the morning and he would ask questions about me.

He was never telling me about where he had just been teaching

and what country he had been in and who he had been working with

and who called him last night that you would all know.

He was just like, OK, And I'd, I'd pitch an idea and he went,

well, you know, here's another option.

And he would just always trying to temper me, 'cause I was wound

up about everything. And so this got, like Vicki

said, it's hard. There were things that we

learned directly from them, but most of it was just watching the

kind of people that they were how thoughtful and careful and

kind and generous. And so and just like they've

given their lives to ministry and they were that's what they

were doing until they couldn't travel.

They were traveling all over the world supporting missionaries,

encouraging them. He's right in curriculum for his

sons to go teach in other countries from first second

Timothy Titus. So it's just amazing they he.

Was on the Cam mission board for years and helped get the Jesus

film into multiple countries. Yeah, I mean.

They're behind the scenes on a lot of things that we saw

happening nationally. But when you know a a couple

like that, praying for you every day, financially supporting you

probably helps you keep going during some hard times in in the

early days. Another couple instrumental in

us all being here and being able to listen to this these stories.

Tom and Bay Proctor. Yeah.

So we our first five years, we don't have a building We meet at

in Tom's house once or twice. We meet in a restaurant.

They go broke and don't tell us. We I'm calling every hotel in

town and they're all saying no and I'm going to get I'm

temperamental. So I'm frustrated at this point

and I'm like, well then God, if you don't care about us and

you're not going to help us, I'm sales my head right.

I'm just going to ask the nicest, we're going to go to the

nicest hotel in town, which at that time was the Hyatt.

And I called the Hyatt. They're like, sure, we'd love to

have you. How many rooms you need?

31 big room, 2 little rooms. How much $52.50 a week?

It's like, OK, you win this one. God has a good point.

It all worked out. We did that for a year and a

half and then we went to the YMCA the first time and then the

jail man for a year and back to the YMCA and God just take care

of us. And little did I know I loved

all that. I didn't realize how much I

loved waking up every day and having to figure it out that

nothing was solved and nothing was figured out and it was all

physical and I just it. The saddest part is that I did

not realize how much I enjoyed all of that and would do that

part again in a heartbeat and it's so fun.

Well, and you rallied people well during that time.

I mean you still all. All three of us, seven of us, it

was great. We tremendous influence, we all.

Got in the front of that truck together, yes, that's.

I think the people were in the church when you went to the

Hyatt. The first time, so that's still

at the end in the summer, at the end of the summer.

So what are what are we taking? When we leave the.

Lose. What are we taking with us?

10 people. I mean probably 12 to 15.

Yeah, yeah. No Easter, Brussels downtime,

because everybody want to be with their parents at a real

church. At a real church.

So in other words, years we didn't do anything for Easter.

I wouldn't even speak. Sometimes we just do something

else because no one was there for the first few years.

Take a little while for that to change.

And I'm getting to the bar. So we so we go to the jail man

for year, then back to the YMCA. And it's while we're at the YMCA

that we have no knowledge of this.

There's a church on the east side of town, which I've never

been to the east side of town. It was a sticks as far as I'm

concerned. We always, always want us to be

downtown Greenville and we're trying to figure that out.

And even where my house is now, through the woods across Pelham

Road to where the canvas is, where Lowe's Foods, all that was

just horse pasture till not that long ago.

And but we're me setting up, tearing down all the different

ways, and we're growing. And then there's a gal in our

church who is aware of a church on the East Side, Metropolitan

Baptist, that has had some leadership challenges and

they've dwindled and lost people to other churches.

And they're at a place where there's two elders left and

they're trying to make a decision what to do with the

building. And they one wants to sell the

building, give it all the missions.

One wants to give it to a ministry here in town.

They came to a compromise. We'll take the building and five

acres, give it to a ministry in town.

We'll take the other 7 acres, sell it, give that money to

Campus Crusade, what was then called Campus Crusades, called

Crew International focused on China.

And so that was their compromise going to cut the property.

And so they worked through the process of cutting that.

So then they have the five acres and the building and they're

trying to very hard to give it to you.

They have a maybe 10 ministries in town.

They're going and visiting those ministries and, and, and

interviewing them. And they're pretty low key.

They're not, they're not trying to be proud.

They're just trying to find what's the be the best steward

that they can. And this gal in our church knows

some people that are connected to them and just says, hey, you

should consider Grace Church where I go, the young

congregation, they're just getting started.

They could really use the building.

And so that's how we got on the list.

They came and visited. They interviewed us, talk to us

and that that went on. They were in that process for

more than a year and which which is indicative of the previous

leadership crisis, the struggle to make decisions, right?

And so they were in that thing for a long time and it was hard

on them. And they were trying to do the

right thing. And I think that's a hard

pressure for Christians sometimes when they feel like

there's a lot of pressure to do the right thing.

And they are very sincere and wonderful people, but they are

trying to figure all that out. And that went on for a long

time. And we had Thanksgiving in our

house and I remember putting something in the oven and

closing the door and standing up in by the oven thinking in a

very short amount of time, they, they could give us this building

because I had heard that he goes, we're close to making a

decision. We want to tell everybody.

And I'm ever thinking in a, in a week or so, we're probably going

to know and we could have a building for free if that's, if

I'm hearing them right, because you never believe it's too good

to be true. And within a week or so they

did, they called and said they want to give us that building.

And then he goes, I want to meet you over there and show it to

you again. So he had us all come over and

meet. And so he's walking me around

the building and, and we had this real sweet moment.

He made a couple jokes. He's got a dry humor.

It's kind of funny. I was like, OK, this is great.

We it's awesome. And we get into the we get into

the sanctuary worship center, what we now call the student

center on Belm Road. And I said, I said, no, Mr.

Proctor, no, what are we doing here?

And he said, well, I don't want you to look at it because we

want to give it to you, but you need to look at this and make

sure you want to take it. And I was like, oh, I could have

saved you a trip. I said, I said, no, you know,

we've I said us praying about it and he started laughing.

I said, just feel silly because I mean, I don't think I could

hear God say no. I said, but here is the thing

and this I think this was this was being being open to God

leading. And I just said, here's thing.

I said this, everything about this is an incredible blessing

and it's it's it's everything that we need and want.

I said, but it is dated culturally and generationally.

I said, and we would have to make changes here.

And I said like RIP up the carpet, the pews.

I said it. And I said, and I would never

want to say do anything that is offensive to you.

God has taken care of us this far.

We don't need this building to survive.

God will figure that out. I said, but I would not want to

do anything to hurt you or anybody else.

You'd be offended that we didn't think it was good enough for us.

We're making these changes and I'm he goes, we have no strings.

He goes, if I were going to put a string on you, I was going to

tie you to something. I would just ask you to fill it

up. Just fill it up with people.

Hey guys, we would love to see little kids running down these

hallways again. And I was like, well, I can

promise you we will do our. Best it still gives me

butterflies. Listen, you tell that because I

it was such a anxious waiting time and then you know, and it

and you feel little dirty because it's a physical thing,

but it was an important physical thing.

And when he said that, he it was just like he he said, I want you

to wear it out. Yeah, he did.

He goes wear it out And and we're like, yes Sir, we promise

we will do that. Is there pressure that comes now

from having a sense of permanence you've you enjoy a

little bit of the chaos of problem solving and and moving

around. So is there some there's some

pressure that that comes with that?

Yeah. I mean, there was afterwards at

that point we, we are tired of setting up and tearing down and

we have reinvented it every way that you can by that point.

And I've exhausted all that. There's all these little tricks

and angles and dividing up, getting volunteers and paying

some people here that I mean, we, but we are getting to the

place where we are tired because setting up any, setting up

anything less than 250 chairs is not complicated.

Setting up 300 chairs and above and we were in the 350 range at

the Y. When you start setting up more

than 250 chairs, it's real work. And the staging and the screen

and the projector, and I mean it is.

Just and then the heat and the air we had to have, we had

people coming in AT2O clock in the morning.

We had guys, you know, bring in heaters, just try to get this.

Is that the gym at the old Y on Cleveland Strip?

And people were in their parkas, you know, because it's freezing

and they're literally freezing, but they're still, they're

setting up those heaters and it's still cold.

So it would have been way. Worse, but you make those

sacrifices when the acoustics are impeccable.

So bad like. Once, yeah, when I was sitting

out there with Vicki, I'd be off 1 teaching on weekend.

I'd be like, I can't hear anything he's saying.

She goes never, we can never can, but we never can hear

what's being said. I was like.

That's why we always go back and get the cassette and listen to

your assignments. Yeah, yeah.

So we're four, so we'll just kind of use this as a jumping

off point just then just kind of do some reflection because that

really was a a game changer. And again, you know, Tom and

Daddy, I mean, it's, it's just it's an incredible story.

But we're four years into the church plant.

Yes, we're not. We're planted as that point

almost four years. Well, by the time we moved in

March 5th, 2000, that was our move in date.

We got it in fall 99, we're told we had it and then we moved in.

It took after renovations. March 5th, 2000 was our first

Sunday. And so we're closing in on five,

you know, because from June 4th, 1995, OK.

Yeah, Bill, when is it that you intersect this story?

Well, I was watching from a distance because Tom and I were

best friends since childhood. We met, I moved out to

Powdersville and I remember meeting him at Concrete

Elementary School. And so we have been connected

for a long time. And then we got closer as life

went on. We didn't walk with Jesus

together. And then I had a pretty dramatic

change in my life right before my senior year of high school,

which didn't, I mean, a lot of my friends I wasn't friends with

anymore, but my relationship with Tom endured that.

And he was supportive of that. But we weren't really walking

together. He wasn't walking with the Lord.

Then I was worried, worried about him and praying for him.

And, and so we had, so I watched his salvation conversion while

he was at Clemson through FCA. So I was adjacent to what was

Matt and Vicki and what was going on in FO Ed Ferris and the

ways in which a whole group of people and my wife have been

impacted by FCA Ed Furman in that way.

And but I was this kind of judgmental hardcore dude because

I had been like that, that smell too much like what I had been my

experience of that at Furman. And I was wrongly judging a lot

of that. So I'd gone to what became a

precursor for Ruf. And so I did this deep dive into

like being hardcore, you know, reform guy for a while in my

20s. So that's right.

So well, and that's what I thought because it's an

interesting thing because Tom and Allison were a part of this

big Baptist Church. And I don't feel great about

that because I'm judging everybody.

And then so, but but we were very focused on expositional

preaching where I came from and I was studying hard and I had

vision for that. And I had actually thought about

maybe I should plan a church one day, but I'm I'd not been a

starter. And so I saw what was going on

and I would see things that, and I would hear things from Tom and

Allison that they were excited about.

And it didn't always hit me the right way.

Like I remember men's roundtable and Tom talking about Mother

Wayne and Father Wayne. And I was like, Oh my Lord,

they'd gone and some kind of psycho Babble thing.

And I remember really thinking that.

But then this, what I saw, began to saw how their life was being

impacted and changed. And it was real encouraging to

me. And I at that time I thought

Doctrine was the solution. And so I had to run it because

it getting a good doctrine of the grace of God had really

changed my life and it stabilized me in some ways that

made it much possible. So that was the lens that I had.

And so that had to all play out. And I was a part of some really

unhealthy churches and they were going through difficult times

that all had good doctrine, but their practice, their practice

was just all messed up. And I was watching what being a

part of this church was doing to Tom and Allison, and I was being

humbled through the whole process.

And so as I was seeing this and seeing how it all worked out,

there was just this moment where some of the lack of health in

the churches that I was in led me to just be.

I knew I needed to be in Greenville because of some

responsibilities that I felt in my family.

And we have moved back here from Philadelphia because of that.

And I just realized church is too important.

I just want to be a part of a healthy church.

And the churches that we've been in are not thriving.

And I was seeing what was happening at Grace Church.

And so I just got in a job and quit working in churches and

thought if God wants me to be in ministry full time, I'll be in

ministry full time. But I'm just find a healthy

church, raise my family. And so I went to lunch, we,

well, we visited because Tom was teaching on a sermon on fear of

man and we worshipped there. And then we left and drove to

another church. And I'm not saying anything

against that other church, but when we were leaving and driving

to that other church, my wife was like, why are we dropping at

this other church? Literally, that's what she said

to me. And we were getting ready to

join and we had a moment and I had connections with those folks

and they're good folks and it's still a good church and they're

discipling people. And, you know, and I thought

that's what we were supposed to do, but we were getting ready to

meet with those elders to join that church again on a Sunday.

And but we had visited Grace and Rachel said, listen, and she's

not confrontational. And so she, she said, listen, if

you tell me that God's leading us to join this church, then

I'm, I'm good. We'll join this church.

She's like, but I don't think God's leading us to join this

church. As she said, I think you're

doing this because you're afraid and you don't know what.

Else to do and. Golly.

And so I just looked at her and I said you're 100% right.

And we came to Grace Church the next Sunday, and Matt was

preaching on the daggone Rapture, which I don't even

believe in. Oh, that is.

Debatable. I don't even believe no, he was

preaching attack. It was amazing.

But it was so funny because I saw we he and I gone to lunch

one day and I told him, man, I'm just willing to reform preacher

guy. And you know, probably don't

want me in our church, but we loved what we saw in your

church. And you know, I don't know if

maybe we need to be here. And he gave me a sermon series

to list. These are you men don't even

like my preaching. So here, listen to the sermon

series the life of Moses. So I listened by half of it and

I was like, no, I'm great with preaching, yeah, but it wasn't

good enough for me to listen to the whole thing.

You listen to. Appreciate it.

Listen to how to help. So you listen to the Half a life

of mine. So, so anyway, so we showed up

and it was a cool thing because we sat in the back of that

building that we've been talking about that was given to them.

We sat in the back corner. Remember where we sat and all

four of our little boys, me and Rachel, we sat down and I saw

him see me in the back of the room.

Do you remember this? You may not remember it.

You saw me and you knew you were teaching on attacks that me

coming from a reform context that we may not agree on.

It's ironic because we just said revelation, you know?

And so we were both making some assumptions about where each

other were coming from and how that would play.

It was a cool moment because the way he handled the text was

great. And I was like, this is exactly

what I'm looking for. He was not overplaying his hand

and shoving his religious agenda.

He wasn't defending anything. He just teaching about and I was

like, Nope, that's what we need to do.

And we met Scott Nelson, he had just come on our staff and he

was doing, we call it assimilation.

Been new people, yes, which is perfect.

I mean he's perfect. I mean Scott could quote the 1st

600 people who came to our church back then.

He knew everybody's saying, he still knows, everybody's saying

in day when they came to our church.

So I remember we went and met Scott Nelson and then had a

brief conversation with Matt and, and that was in O3.

It was like June of, I think it was June of O3.

We've been back in Greenville for about two years.

You had just been on staff. Yeah, I started June O3.

You'd you had just started and we had just started because I

remember meeting you and Ashley at a I think somebody was

getting baptized in your parents, fool.

We went through discovery together.

And so that's exactly right, no? Exactly this camping chair,

Yeah. We did.

And so that was that was when we intersected with the church.

But I had been watching from a distance and it was just

interesting to me. And I had some friends who said

to me, you know, how are you going to go to that church

because it's not distinctively reformed?

And how are you going to submit the elders that you don't agree

with? Although, hey, man, I've been

doing church with people that I agree with on a bunch of

doctrine for a long time that has not gone so well.

So I'm going to make a different mistake and I'll do so.

I'm going to do something different, I said, because I

don't care how people say what they say if they really believe

in the authority of Scripture. And so for me, that was a thing.

It was seeing Tom and Allison's life be changed and watching him

learn how to love his extended family, really.

And and then it was seeing how all that was being worked out.

And it was me seeing that maybe being right about all these

doctrinal things is not even the main thing, which I had been

moving in that area anyway, but I just didn't have anything else

available to me. And it was cool for me because I

was like, oh, here's this thing that I didn't know existed that

I actually I agree with this process, but I just not seen

anything like that. So we joined the church and I

was working do a business development for a commercial

construction company. And we had just done a new big

initiative on getting volunteers because the church grew a lot

when you got a building gave credibility.

So people came kind of as consumers, probably for the

first time as we had all these kids, we're y'all were trying to

get people to serve. And so there was this big

initiative. Y'all going to see some church

in Chicago about volunteer culture.

And I remember there are always announcements being made.

And I remember where I was sitting when y'all talked about

the need you had in children's ministry.

I was like, well, I'm contributing to that need.

So Rachel and I signed up that Sunday to serve as children's

ministry volunteers. And but yeah, that's that's how

we got started. Oh, before we go a little

further, we got to bring MO into the mix.

So I had called a pastor, a friend of mine in Dallas and

said, Hey, I, I need help out here.

And he goes, man, because I got a friend that we're working in

the leadership center at Dallas Seminary.

He's got a couple guys that are just super bright, super

talented. I was like, well, they wouldn't

come work with me. So you got anybody else?

You got anybody mediocre. That's right.

So I tracked all that down and got in that the the road forked

a couple times and they got me to Scott Mozingo and we started

talking I think in your third year and it's because it was a

18 month process. So because you still had to

finish school with four year program.

And so we worked a lot and I thought MO has all this from the

South, really, really bright and has a Harvard discipleship and

just can work with anybody. He's got all these great social

skills I don't have and wants to shepherd in care of her people.

But he was when I think when you came and we 28.

Yeah, 28 and 11 months. Yeah, and had.

That's right, that's what it was.

And he had twins. So he's going to school all day,

working all night at the shipping, whatever UPS wives

bedridden for the last while the pregnancy.

So it was just a tough time. But I was like, if that dude's

that tough, he cropped the back in Eastern North Carolina.

Now he's doing this. That's what we need around to

hear. It's that kind of toughness.

And so when he came here, everybody was like, no, how old

is he? Looks like, how old is he?

I was like, he's basically 30. Vicky's like, that's one of the

28. That's right.

And Vicky would be like, I don't even think he's 29.

I was like, no, you, you got to give me that one.

He's 29. He's telling me he's 20.

That was like, hey, I'm telling you it's not a good thing.

But most people, they won't listen to you until you turn 30.

There's something about 30, he says.

So it's true. It's going to be 33.

I was 30. I was 37.

I was 30. Matt wished to be 30 for the

longest time after we first started when he when he was 26.

When we started, he just kept saying if I could get 30 people

actually talk to me or stay and listen to my teaching.

Yeah, instead of playing pick up at Ren where a guy like you

said, what are you doing now, Matt?

You know that you're back from seminary, he said.

Well, we're going to plan a church.

He goes, do we need more? Churches, it was not an

encouraging time. So yeah, no, I'm really trying

to lead all these groups and I, I couldn't go to our elders and

say I didn't feel like I got ourselves and say, hey, we, we

need more. We need a staff person to handle

small groups, among other things.

So we had to just start a bunch of small groups and then I could

say, see all these groups now we need someone.

And so the timing worked out. We were able to build some

groups and get them here. And then MO took those over and

tripled that number and wrote curriculum and then building

what doing? I don't even know how many jobs

you've had since been here, but it's a lot.

Well, people always say, how do you, how do you get a job at a

church? I was like, we just like you

give where you start saying, where do I want to live?

And you start asking, who do I know because I've been in the

church front. There's a special trick.

You find out what the founding pastor is doing, but he doesn't

want to do anymore. And you volunteer to do that.

They won't even ask you for a resume.

Yeah, well, it's filling the gaps, baby, Filling the gap.

Yeah, I was one of your. I was in one of your first

leadership. Classes.

So after I've been here serving for a little while and MO had

this, he had put together a leadership curriculum, next

level leaders, next level leaders.

I remember the binder. It's like a, it's a, it's a

lesson. I quote you to you keep

everything. It was a Leslie note binder.

You know that's right, but. He's got all these little tabs

in it. And I remember it was Scott

Freeman. And I don't remember everyone

who was in there, but I definitely remember that Scott

Freeman and I were in there because we came here, You know,

I came here as a member when you were coming on staff.

And Cosmo believed you were a next level leader.

I was the next. I thought, Matt, there may be a.

Future, right it was. Talent scattered.

Maybe a future. That's it for me here in your

downline. Hey, can I ask a quick mission,

something I should say before we get too much farther?

I just want to bring up Tom and Joey Fowler real quick as people

we talked about. I just feel like they joined us

at the Hyatt and they were super young, but they were a step

ahead of us like at the time, I mean, but they were in it with

us and I don't know, I thought Matt Mike could speak to it, but

Tom, it's ready yes, and I just don't want to forget that

because they they felt like we were if when they just kept

coming back every week and they were part of what we were doing

and and Tom is such a biblical scholar and really helped us out

in so many ways with disciple and people and anyway.

Yeah, why do? Why do they connect?

Early on it's his future daughter-in-law is dating his

son and she prevailed upon them to come visit this church and he

walked in and said he's 40 ish. We're, you know, mid 20s.

So he's Ancient of Days. I mean.

He's 38 and 11 months. Yeah, that's right.

And he, he literally, you know, he, it doesn't take long to see

he, he knows the Bible. He'd been an elder up north in

Philly and just outside of Philly.

And he is. And you could just tell he had

all this wisdom and he just knew things.

And I said, hey, after that we got said, hey, man, we we need,

we're all we know we're doing. We're all young.

We need Someone Like You. He goes and he looked at me.

He goes, no, he goes, I've done this.

He goes and you have no idea what's getting ready to happen

and what you're going to go through.

He goes in, it's wonderful and incredibly hard and he goes, but

I did this. I, I, this is.

And they have family in the area.

Next week he was not there visiting a church with family

and stuff. And then I think the third week

they were back and then they were back.

And there I would I in a sermon within a few weeks, I talked

about, one of my illustrations was who knows what the point

was, but about all the Americans being rescued from Dunkirk.

He comes up to me afterwards. He goes, hey, Americans were not

rescued from Dunkirk. We weren't in the war yet.

And I was like, boy, if I messed that up, imagine what he thinks

about my Bible teacher. And every once in a while, you

know, we would sit down and I'd say, help me with this or that.

And he would say, he would say, look, you can do whatever you

want. He said, and there's freedom and

all this. We have these things that are

given to us in the scriptures where we need to obey those

things. And there's other areas where

we're not super clear because, but look at the patterns in

scriptures because I would just encourage you to look at the

Bible and do what it says, not just directly, but when it gives

you a pattern for something, do that, even if it's not

prescriptive, if it's D script, use that too, you know, and

enjoy the freedom. But he just always pressed on me

to go back to the scriptures. And he is a he's a great teacher

and he teaches from a pastor's perspective, from a shepherding

standpoint, which is different than what I do.

So that was always real help because hey, here's an

illustration you might think of, or here's here's an application.

Here's something that would be meaningful to be 1 evil and in

in there were some really hard days in those first few years

where I made real mistakes. And you know, you always go, I'm

going to be a pastor going to go inherit someone else's mistakes.

So I'm going to plant a church that way I don't have to inherit

this. What church might say, I don't

want to inherit anybody else's mistakes.

Well, that's dumb because you're going to inherit mistakes.

They're either someone else's or yours.

And I would just tell you they're all terrible.

But when you inherit someone else's mistakes, at least you

can say I'm cleaning up someone else's mess.

But when you cleaned up your own mistake, they're like, so you're

going to clean up the mess that you made and you feel, OK, well,

I may not be that good at this. And so he really helped come

alongside and was a great strength and encouragement as to

Tom and me, particularly in some early days where I made mistakes

and didn't handle things well. And he could just say, Hey, why

don't you just call him, Hey, just go meet with them and just

tell them you're wrong and you're sorry and you're you

didn't know what you were doing. I mean, he just that practical

advice and he'd be like, read this passage.

Tell me what that what you think that means.

So and Joey is always the life of the party.

She is always going to be there to encourage and give strength

to you and love you and see the best.

And so they, they have been a backbone couple to us.

And, you know, and then you mentioned Bo Ed Farris, who's

discipled us in through the years.

And we had another friends, Bill and Suzanne Shaw in Atlanta that

mentored us. And they're a bunch.

There's nothing that just happens in a vacuum around one

person or one couple. God has brought so many people

to bear. But Tom and Joy Fowler have been

in the nitty gritty and in the deep weeds of it from the very

beginning. Thanks again for listening as we

reflect on some of the formative moments of Grace Church.

We are very grateful for your participation in the life of the

local church and we look forward to many years of ministry ahead.

We'll see you next time on the Members podcast.