EP 53: Discovering God through Scripture

That's what I feel like Scripture has been for me when I

explored on my own is like the moment of walking up the

mountain and like, sometimes it's hard and you can't figure

out what is this thing connected to.

And I don't understand this because I'm not a biblical

scholar, but I'm just going to like, trudge through this for a

little bit and I'm going to see if I find something on the other

side of it. And it's been rewarding every

time. Well, hey everyone, and welcome

back to the Grace Church Members Podcast.

I'm your host, Whitney Maynis here with Scott Mzingo.

How are you today, Scott? Hey, Whitney.

Good morning. Good morning, Good to see you.

And it is my privilege to introduce our guest for today.

I've known her for a few years now and she's one of those

people that I find myself in conversation with.

And she will just in the middle of her sentence like drop a

little truth bomb and then keep going.

And I have to be like, wait, wait, wait.

I need you to go back. I need to say that one thing

again. And she's like, oh, you mean

this? And I'm like, yes, that was

actually life changing for me. And I just love being around

her. She has a deep love for

scripture and she loves story both in her own life and in the

local church. And she's just cool and fun.

So I just wanted her to come and share a little bit of what God

has been teaching her recently. This is Jackie Davenport.

Jackie, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, what campus

you're at, where you serve, and just what life looks like for

you right now? Yeah, totally.

So I am Jackie Davenport. It is true that I really do love

good stories and I have said for a long time if I have two paths

of a road to go down, I usually will pick the one that has a

better story at the end of it. We've really thought, yeah,

yeah, we love. Absolutely.

But I am at Pelham. I've been there for I think 15

years now, so that's a pretty good amount of time.

That's right. I serve in a bunch of different

ways, but my husband and I have a Home group, which is great.

He serves and plays keys at the Pelham.

So I technically feel like I'm like an adjunct part of the

worship team because I watch the kids so that he can serve,

right? Absolutely.

And then I also do some photography for Grace and then I

am our team Lean at Pelham for women at Grace.

Awesome. Yeah.

And tell us a little bit about family and work and all that.

Yeah, so I am, I work for a physical therapy company, so I

am a physical therapist, but I'm a weird kind.

So I really like education and teaching and learning more than

anything. So I manage post professional

education for a national company and we have two kids at home.

So Anna is 7 now and Micah is five.

And they are super fun. So they are really great little

kids. I'm, I try to tell people the

dog description of them, like Anna's like a border collie and

like us like a goldendoodle. No, they're really fun and we

don't even have dogs, but that just feels like it describes who

they are. Accurate.

Yeah. Yeah.

So parenting season for us a ton and working and serving and

really just kind of enjoying it there.

It's a fun stage right now. Jason's also PT.

He is, yeah. He's also PT.

Nice, so busy and but life is good and life is good.

Lots of good things to think about.

Well, we are just grateful that you are here with us today.

And for those of you listening, a little bit of our thought

process, if you've stuck around with us for a while, we've hit a

lot of topics. We've talked about a lot of our

ministries and we were like, we really just want to hear from

some of our members, like the experience of being in the

church. And as much as we love our

staff, we've just got talented people to talk on a bunch of

things. But we also like to talk about

Ephesians 4 verses 11 through 12, where it's the role of the

Ephesians 4:11–12

staff to equip the members for the work of ministry.

And we do just have incredible members who are doing the work

for the body of Christ. And Jackie is one of those.

So yeah, starting out. I mean, Jackie, just tell us,

kind of an open question for you, but what is God been

teaching you recently? And have you just seen his

presence at work in your life? Yeah, I think it's always like

such an interesting question because I feel like if you

picked work or you've picked family or you picked just

personal life, I feel like I'd always give a different example.

And if anybody's listening and they're under the age of 20,

they're going to hear this and probably think it's crazy.

But I have been just in my head for probably the past 10 years

trying to understand how big God is just his.

I can put him in a box and make him really small.

I think if you talk about, you know, root tree of unbelief

things, I can make God intermittent where he is there

when I need him to be. And then I can put him aside

when he's not needed or when I just think I've got it and I can

handle it. Or if I'm just like tired and

just too busy. And I get to the point where I

realized, Oh, my goodness, like I haven't done what I've needed

to do to obey him in a day or sometimes even in a week.

And so just this discovery process of remembering that he

is way bigger that like, I can't ever put him in a box.

Like there's no way for that to happen.

And so for me, the past year has been just an exploratory time.

I've just been really surprised by how big he is in ways that I

never thought I would encounter him to be big.

And a lot of that has been through just being in scripture

and in scripture in a different kind of way.

So not necessarily reading a devotional book and letting

somebody kind of give me the things to think about, but more

just like the raw Bible itself. And Jim Taylor a year ago just

used this phrase while we were having a conversation one time.

And he said, I think you just let Scripture interpret itself.

And I thought that is something no one has ever really said to

me before. And it was incredibly

convicting, one, and two, helpful because I hadn't really

thought about how you can connect parts of Scripture on

your own without external teaching to be able to pull in,

to really understand what was going on.

And that was huge for me. And so I think I've spent a lot

of this past year and God's just been really showing me how much

bigger he is than I think he is. And that's really helpful for me

because it's good for me to be put in my place.

So yeah, was that a question you were asking, looking, seeking an

answer? How big is God?

Or is that just an answer that found?

You No, I was like trying to figure it out.

I mean that I've always felt like I need a sense of him being

huge. I I feel like I have a sense of

him being personal sometimes, but I think a personal God is a

is without the bigness and the greatness of who he is becomes a

moldable like little action figure I can keep in my pocket.

And that's not what I wanted him to be like.

I want him to be so big and so personal at the same time that I

feel the all of associated with having a personal relationship,

if that makes sense. So that was more of me trying to

figure out. I feel like I understand that he

is a personal God, but I also at the same time want to understand

his vastness and greatness so that I appreciate him for

literally being God like the most holy 1 and worthy of.

Yeah. So the two words we used in

Exodus 19 were transcendence and eminence.

And I think people tend to err on one side or the other as far

as how they view God and emphasize it.

So you're basically saying that the eminence, the closeness, the

personal you connect with, but this big transcendent God was a

little bit more challenging. Yeah, I think it's just, for me,

it's just harder for my brain to wrap its head around.

And I but I think that's actually what has been really

been helpful about being in scripture, the way that I have

and the way that it's changed. Literally, I've never done this

before in my life. So like about a year ago, trying

to figure all this out and just the remarkable nature of being

able to trace something from the beginning of the Bible to the

end of the Bible and to see, I think it just settled on me that

like God is the same God. We sing that right?

Like, but it means something when you see him be the same God

in Genesis that he is in Revelation and you see him be

the same God in flesh in John that he is in the old.

And and you just like, there's something about that that feels

so much bigger than I ever could have found by looking in nature

or by going on a walk or by having a great conversation with

a friend or even just like a really good moment where you

know, like God is present in that.

There's something about seeing his consistency throughout

Scripture that I think has helped make him feel

transcendent. Like just that idea of him being

big. Especially when you're

considering like this book was written by multiple authors

thousands of years apart from each other.

And, you know, the newer authors were basing some things off of

the older authors. But some of it is just like,

there's no way that this could have been written without 1

spirit that is guiding all of it.

Oh yeah. And just how intentional it was.

Even as we've been through Exodus, being struck by the fact

that God puts forth, you know, the water from the rock as this

imagery. And you're like, this is a

little weird. It's a little random.

I don't quite get it. And then as you kind of flesh it

out and then you get into the New Testament and you're like,

Oh my gosh, he's been so intentional and like planned all

of these details to come together for us to read in 2025,

you know, however many years later, which is, yes, a little,

this is. The first year I read Matthew 4.

Like one through 11. The temptation of Jesus and this

was probably I guess it was last year technically, but I read and

started to trace through Scripture like hey, where it is.

So Jesus says like, hey, you shouldn't test the Lord your God

as a way to just fight against Satan when he's like, hey, but

God says he'll protect you, so throw yourself off this thing

and it'll be fine. Yeah.

And Jesus is like, no, you shouldn't test the Lord your

God. And I went back into Deuteronomy

and like, found the verse that he quoted.

And then I read it and I thought, wait, that's not the

original place that that thing lived.

So I went back to Exodus and found where he said it.

And then I'm at the water at the rock and striking the water from

the rock. And I'm thinking, wait, hold on.

Like I know there's a part in First Corinthians where he says

that Christ was the water in the rock and the thing.

And all of a sudden reading Matthew 4 feels entirely

different because I'm like, okay, here's Jesus in the

wilderness, having grown up knowing all of that scripture

and now in the moment being able to leverage it against literally

Satan and what that looks like to have the knowledge of

everything in the past come into that moment.

And then reading afterwards, like Satan being like, hey,

I'll, I'll give this all to you, right.

And then reading ahead into Revelation and realizing he gets

it all in the end anyway. Like, yeah, so there's just

something about that that feels now to read that passage, it

doesn't just feel like the temptation of Jesus in the

wilderness and me thinking, man, he must have been hungry and

thirsty. Like it feels so much more in

depth. It feels he, Jesus, feels so

much more human at the same time, he feels so much more God.

And there's something about that that is super cool.

And I don't think I would have gotten there had I not spent

time to try to figure out like, hey, where do all of these

things connect? And then the same thing of like

looking at all the ways that water flows throughout

Scripture. And they're in, it's in the

Psalms. It's in almost everything that

alludes to what heaven on earth will look like one day when the

new earth is is here. Like just the idea of everything

being clean and fresh and new and nothing being stagnant and

old. And, you know, we're like,

mosquitoes live in my backyard. So I just like that.

It's fresh running water, it's nice a stagnant stuff.

Are you doing the study on your own or are you doing it with

your group? Yeah, that how's that working

out? Honestly, the first one, the

water from the rock moment and like the Jesus temptation that

ever I did on a receipt on the back of a receipt while Anna was

doing cold fish swims cool because I had 30 minutes and I

was like, oh, I don't know what and I just like I'm just

thinking through. Something they were inspired by.

Yeah, and I was inspired by the water.

That's right, It's flowing. And I thought I got this.

No, that is really great. I hadn't thought about that, but

that's really great. So comfortable.

And then I did it and it was so revealing.

And so I mean, I told this story at one of our women's events,

but I went to New Zealand actually the year after, a

couple months after we went to Israel.

So I flew a lot of miles that particular year.

But I've just, and this is when I was fun, like before I had

kids, like decided that I was just going to go take a solo

trip to New Zealand. So I booked a plane ticket and

literally a backpack. Like I didn't even check it

back. I was just like, hey, we're

going to do this. And so I got there and there

were a couple things that I wanted to see.

I had more camera equipment that I had clothes in my backpack

because I was like, I can, I don't care about clothes, but I

care about pictures like that I can keep and I can have.

And there's this really famous tree in Wanaka and it's this

cute little like town that is, I mean, it's beautiful.

If any anything in New Zealand, it's just it's very easy to go

take pictures of. And this is I didn't need all

that camera equipment. I needed the old phone from,

right. I was in 15.

It would have been great, but there's this tree.

It's a little Willow tree and it's in the middle of the water

and it's one of those photographed trees in the world.

So I knew about it and I thought I'm gonna wake up super early

and I'm going to get that really cool picture where the water is

crystal clear and everything is fine and it's going to be

gorgeous. And and I did that.

I woke up early and I got to the tree and there were like 10

other photographers there with me.

And I had seen the tree the day before in the sunlight because

it's like right there in the middle of the town.

You can't miss it. Like it's on the edge of the

water and it looks like it's all tucked back in the lake.

It's not it's like 20 feet from the like I could ask why I'm

doing touched it, but I think I would have got in trouble.

So I didn't do that. And I took this picture and it

was fine. Like it, it's a great photo.

It's really, it's really awesome.

But I knew the tree was there, so there was something about it

just didn't make it really special.

But the day before I was, or two days before that, I was in

Queenstown and I saw a mountain and a hike and I was like, oh,

I'll just go do that because that's kind of how again, 2 pass

and a road and I'm going to go take them on with a better

story. So I go set off and the fire

danger sign is like on the full extreme red.

And I was like, no, that's probably fine.

Like, I guess I don't know. And this was before like cell

phones worked in other countries, right?

Or I wasn't willing to pay for it.

One of those 2. And so I take off down the road

and I didn't see the sign that said how long it was going to

take to get to the top of the mountain.

But I saw the mountain and I was like, it's not that big.

Like I can probably do that. It's the arrogance.

And maybe like, I'm fine. I didn't have any water with me.

I had 12 starbursts in my bag because who was prepared for

hikes, like high quality fuel, right?

Very excellent sugar intake. And so I take off down the road.

I encounter like some mountain goats.

There's nobody else on this path at all.

And I realize I'm walking farther away from the mountain I

thought I was climbing, which is kind of interesting.

And so I eventually figure out, oh, I'm climbing that mountain

over there like a mountain that was easily twice as tall as the

one I thought I was climbing. But I was committed.

And so I'm like, I can't give up now.

That's right. So I'm halfway up this mountain.

It starts to get rainy and cold. Luckily I had a jacket and I'm

eating snow off the side of the mountain and I it's cloudy, it

can't see anything. And I'm like, what am I doing?

I'm like, but I'm not, I can't quit now.

Like now is not the time to give up in this moment.

So I get to the very top of the mountain and it was one of those

days where I guess this happens on mountains.

I don't understand weather patterns, but there was complete

clouds on one side of the mountain and the other side of

the mountain was perfectly crystal clear and clean.

And there was a huge rainbow that was covering the town on

the other side of the mountain. It's one of my favorite pictures

that I took at that whole trip because I climbed up a mountain

not having any idea what to expect, got up to the top and it

was just the most beautiful thing ever and no one else was

there. And there was something about

that moment. I was like, this is amazing.

Like if my whole trip's worth it just because of this moment.

And then a couple days later I go take a picture of the tree

that I thought I was going to find right to be really

exciting. And it was just, that's what I

feel like Scripture has for me when I explore it on my own is

like the moment of walking up the mountain and like, sometimes

it's hard and you can't figure out what is this thing connected

to. And I don't understand this

because I'm not a biblical scholar, but I'm just going to

like trudge through this for a little bit and I'm going to see

if I find something on the other side of it.

And it's been rewarding every time.

Like, so even finding something that feels little or tiny all

the way up to like huge Revelation moments.

So Jason and I were working through in our Home group, we've

kind of tried to take some paths and Exodus to try to figure out,

hey, what can we connect into the New Testament?

And so we did, remembering. We were just thinking about how

God commands the Israelites to remember.

Like I am doing this for you as a sign of my glory.

And so this is going to be a big deal.

So we're not just going to make this a big deal and then you

just forget about it. Like it's like, no, you married

us. Like we have a wedding.

It's a big deal. Like, because it's a huge change

in what we're doing. And we remember that every year.

Yeah. And so just the idea of Jesus

and not Jesus, sorry, God commanding them, hey, put the

manna in a jar and like you're going to remember this is how

you were fed. So we started to look at other

times that got us commanding them to remember things like,

hey, stack these stones, take them out of the river.

And this is the time that God helped you cross the Jordan.

And as we go back and look through it, I feel like I heard

those stories before. So I picture those like little

Instagram photos with like all the little rocks balanced on one

another. And that when you go back and

read the scripture, it's like they had a hard time carrying

those rocks. So you're like, it's not the

tiny little rocks that are about.

I mean, this is like a monument in some ways.

And how many other times he just commands us to remember.

So it like the Lord's supper, Jesus sits down with his

disciples and he says, Hey, do this in remembrance of me.

And so just these commands from God and just being able to

thread all that through. There's something about it just

makes everything come alive and it's, you know, we don't have

any biblical training. We're right.

We're trying to figure it out as we go along.

But to do that in the context of group has been just really fun.

It's it's been really fascinating.

And I think most people are like, oh, I didn't think about

that. Or someone else will jump in and

say, hey, that it kind of connects to this idea too.

And we end up learning together. Yeah, to your point, I remember

I was reading the book of John as we were going through Exodus

and there's the passes where Jesus is talking to some of the

Jews. They had said we've never been

slaves to anybody. And that was the thing that was

so clear to me because we had just done the piece about, you

know, them being slaves in Egypt.

And I was like, what do you mean you've never been slaves to

anybody? And then, you know, if you know

about the exile too, you're just like, But then when you see God

emphasizing to his people so much, like you have to remember,

you cannot forget because. And that's just how we're bent.

And that's how I'm bent. Like, I just, I forget and I'm

like, yeah, I'm good. I got it.

And I just don't. But I never would have seen that

if I hadn't been doing both of those at the same time.

And to your point of that story about hiking in New Zealand, I

think there is something about discovering something on your

own versus like just it being handed to you and fed to you.

Like it just makes the experience of reading scripture

so much deeper and and so much more fun.

Like you just enjoy it and then you sit down and you're not

going to have that moment every single day.

But like, that's what you're kind of searching for is like,

oh, there is just so much written richness here that the

Lord wants to reveal to me in this process.

Yeah. So has that been contagious to

your group members and people that you're talking to and

you're sharing? Hey, I I've been doing this

study about water and they're like, oh, that's great, Jackie,

whatever you know, or, or are they like jumping in with you

like pun intended? And yeah, just wanting to keep

digging. Yeah.

I think over the past year, we've kind of when we first

started trying to, I don't know if the word threading is right

or connecting the dots or whatever we were trying to do.

We'd started in Revelation and we were looking at all the Old

Testament allusions to things in Revelation.

And what was helpful for us is that everybody looks at

Revelation is like, I don't know what is going on right now.

And it was really hopeful to have some concrete things in the

Old Testament where you read and you're like, I do know what's

going on and then to see it reflected in Revelation and have

Revelation not be as intimidating.

So I think starting off that way was actually really helpful for

our group. But because we did that and now

we're in Exodus, our group members are owning it.

So like Jason and I did the first two, but two other members

of our group last week did the hand of God and walked through

Scripture. And I think everybody's a little

bit nervous at the beginning because they're like, is, is

this going to be as impactful as, you know?

Because to the point, like they're the ones climbing the

mountain and showing us the rainbow on the other side.

And so it's the mountain climbing process.

I think it's the part that is really like, if I just

helicopter you to the top of the mountain, it's not nearly as

fun. I mean, OK, that is still fun,

but like, it's fun. Nearly as fun as like you having

to work for it to get to the top.

But it has been a really cool process to watch people pick

things that I didn't see because sometimes the best learning

comes from someone else trying to think through something and

then you kind of connecting the dots.

So they did the idea of the hand of God and just talking about,

you know, God striking the rock and, and everything that comes

like through the staff, like God saying, Hey, I'm going to

command you to do these things. But then we took it to Genesis

and then a little bit before that where, hey, like Jacob's

hip gets touched by the hand of God and he is and, and just the

power of the hand of God throughout the Old Testament

feels like it is mighty and it is weighty and it is something

that is in some ways destructive, but not in a bad

way. Like it just it it comes up

against for the brokenness of the world and it is winning.

And then to see that reflected in the New Testament.

And Matt alluded to some of that a little bit with like Jesus

touching things and making them clean, but his touch is softer

and a little bit more gentler. It feels more approachable.

And then Jason just saying at the end of all of that, he's

like, yeah, we have the hand of God and the Old Testament and

then a new New Testament, and then they're nailed to the

cross. And So what does it look like

for the hand of God to be nailed for us?

And just that just thinking through all of that, I think has

just been, it's been really fun. I think our group has enjoyed

it. And I do think it is contagious

because you start thinking about one big book instead of in a

bunch of verses that are broken apart, because then you get to.

Revelation too, and we talked about how God puts his right

hand on yeah, John, you know, and just wouldn't attack the

leading it that line. We got it.

We got. I have that set it in there.

Laugh at it, you know, like even as we're just talking about

this, there is something about doing this with other people in

community where you just to your point, you see things that

somebody else didn't see someone else adds in and that's part of

the experience as well. So how has?

Growing in the the bigness, the understanding, the bigness of

God, the transcendence. Then how has that been served to

strengthen the personal relationship?

Yeah, well, it. It's really easy to be anxious.

I think just in general, that's like a, that's a word we love

using, right? So it is very easy to just think

that it's my job to handle it all.

And it the more that I realize how big God is, the easier it is

for me to just rest and that and they're like, OK, at the end of

the day, all of the things that I get worried about or nervous

about, I mean, Jesus is real clear.

Like I am not to worry about those things because they're for

tomorrow. Like today has enough trouble

its own right. We don't need to worry about

tomorrow. And, and so I think

understanding how big he is, I get to, I get to the end of the

crazy train a little bit faster, which is like in my head, that's

the OK, if this doesn't work out and this doesn't happen, and

then this thing doesn't go down and I can get very worried about

what will happen in the future. But I can get all the way to the

end a lot faster with a bigger God who says, hey, in this

world, you're going to have a lot of troubles and difficulties

and sorrows. But take heart for I have

overcome it. It's a lot easier to get to that

moment. And I think I can hit like the

Fast forward button. I, I still feel it right, If

that makes sense. I don't, it's not like it's not

there, but I feel like I can hit the Fast forward button to get

to Scripture a little bit faster and then it's truly restful.

It's not just like reading the words and knowing that I should

feel them, but I think God being as understanding and I think I

saw a lot to grow in and and him being bigger, but understanding

his bigness and connecting that mind, understanding to my heart

is what helps me hit that Fast forward button a lot faster to

Scripture. Yeah, I think.

About that's a great, that's a great picture of hitting the

Fast forward button. And I think about reciting all

the stuff that I'm worried about.

And I'm I'm very eloquent and all that very well versed, but

then trying to literally like change my posture, like lift my

eyes and then think about all the things I know about God,

like the bigness of God. OK, so God is powerful and he's

ever present and he's sovereign and he's good and he's fair and

he's just and he's holy and he's all, you know, he's I'm, I'm

going through all these attributes of God and like, then

what I'm struggling with this doesn't really seem to be, it

doesn't hold up right. Yeah, it's like.

I can kind of. Be overwhelmed in a good way if

I keep the the eminence the personal nature like and yet God

still knows me he loves me he's still called me you're not like

a little Ant on. The sidewalk that he's like, I'm

good with squish on you then then I'm reciting.

All the things he says about me as this child and my identity in

Christ. So I'm like, OK, this amazing,

powerful, unbelievable God has adopted me into his family and

given me full rights and privileges.

And, and then I'm like, I'm, I'm, my mind is kind of captured

by all of that. And yes, my circumstances are

still there, but it's, I've been able to right size them.

You know, we, we've talked, we've talked to our kids a lot

about, you know, right sizing your efforts and right sizing

your problems. And, and I think just being able

to right size my faith with often means it needs to get a

lot bigger, right get a lot bigger because God is there and

God is working and I just need to see him and see what he's

doing. So I like where you talk about

hit the Fast forward button and for me.

It has to be scripture on the end of the Fast forward because

I will lie to myself about things that will feel good like

it. It has to be literally his words

that are at the end of that or it doesn't for me.

It just doesn't work. So like it's real helpful.

Like I mean, Daniel 318 has always been a first.

I love of like there's just but even if he doesn't like all of

the things that I would want and desire and all these things, but

but even if he doesn't, like we will not bow to to you and we

will not we'd like we we're good with whatever he says, even if

it doesn't come out to the to be the way that I wanted to be.

It's like. It's like trying to grab sugar

or am I trying to grab protein right?

So I. The Starburst, that's why.

We add starburst the sugar. High is kind of the world and

distraction and and it's going to it's going to take away some

of the angst for for a little while, but it really doesn't

give any kind of nutrients, right.

But if we're supposed to be, you know, feasting and nourishing on

the word of God like it's it is like true, true nourishment,

true protein that's going to going to sustain us.

So, and Jackie, I do. Think you are very good at kind

of like even as you started explaining all of this, you're

talking about how you're like, OK, I recognize in myself that I

tend to make God small and make him a little action figure in my

pocket. And so I need to think about how

God is bigger and then here's some work that I need to go do,

but just isolating like what is the lie?

And you even mentioned the tree of unbelief, which is the tool

that we use in women's ministry just to work through this is my

behavior. This is the fruit that I'm

producing. But like what is the root of

that? What is what am I not believing

about God? Do you have an example from work

or from parenting or just life in general of how you have

worked through some of that process of this is what I don't

believe about God. And then this is the Scripture

that I need to get to and not because not just getting to a

point of like, but I just need to believe that God is good.

OK, Where does the Bible say that God is good?

Can you, do you have an exam? Let's see if I can.

Do this. I don't know because I'm not

prepared to do this. So let's do right?

I know, I know. One of the interesting things

that I have had to struggle with over the this is going to sound

so funny that I had to struggle with over the past couple of

weeks. And I told my Home group about

this is my daughter is now in second grade, which means she

gets grades when she comes home from school.

So this is no longer like, you know, I can color inside the

lot. I actually hunt enough of the

grade kids on that kindergarten, right?

But she now comes home with like real grades.

And I was the kind of kid growing up that like anything

less than 100 was really, I had a hard time.

I mean, that makes me sound very arrogant, but it wasn't like

there's something about me just could not handle not being

perfect. And I think we have a lot of

that in a bunch of women and that that manifests itself in a

bunch of ways in your body image and whatever in our house and

the way we decorate and whatever.

But for me it was academic performance.

And so now that I'm past that, which is amazing, right?

Don't have to worry about getting any grades on anything.

I did not see it coming when Anna came home with a bunch of

great at work and I looked at it and I had this, like, visceral

reaction inside me. And I was like, what is wrong

with me? Like, she's in second grade,

She's seven years old, and she's really smart.

And so I was just, I realized how much work I had to do inside

myself to get to the point where I was like, Hey, who she is is

not my job is not to create an academically brilliant child.

My job is to create a human being who grows up, who is

made-up in the image of God, who loves Jesus and can spread his

word. And that is actually how I have

to reorient my soul. So I cannot be about achievement

and I cannot be about how does she reflect me when she means

other people. What do the teachers think about

her? And therefore they think about

me, right? So I, and this the kind of

grounding that I have to do in that moment is here's some

verses I love where it's like, hey, whenever you think you're

too important not to help someone, like don't fool

yourself, you're not that important.

And I know that's about helping people, but again, in the same

context, like it's really helpful for me to just remember

like not that important, like, and this is not that important.

And I need to figure out how to work through that and let that

go. And and so it's been revealing

for just how much I like perfection around something.

And I know when I've done some work just on like shame and

other past things, just trying to figure stuff out about who I

am and how I'm wired that one of the things I do tell myself

quite often is God is perfect. And so I do not have to be,

which is a very relieving thing for me.

I should strive to be more and more like him, like, which is a

perfect version of of myself. But I know that I don't get that

here. And so there is a lot of rest

that I can do. And I just say like, hey, he is

the one who is perfect. And he covers up my

imperfection. And that has to be good enough

in this moment of me wanting to control that whole world.

Yeah, absolutely. Does that.

No, that's great. I know you're like, let me think

about it for a second. I'm like, that's real.

Who are just you're you're you've cultivated this way of

thinking, you know, into your point.

I think the more that we do that, the more that we even

memorize those scriptures and hide them away in our hearts and

then attach them. I like, you know, putting a

theme on something or making it simple like God is perfect.

So I don't have to be like, you can remember that as well.

But that process becomes faster and faster.

I think that's what I've seen in my own life that like the more

that I practice it, you, you hit the Fast forward button, you get

from the panic to OK, wait, like here, here is what the truth is

a lot faster, which is great. And I mean that truth.

Is real, like all those those truths are real, like the things

that I make up in my head are not real.

Like I have an incredible another thing I'm working

through right now. It's just the idea of world

building. So just just books where

somebody can create something that's not here.

Like I mean, think Narnia is a version of that, you know, but

I'm good with like any kind of world building book.

I really like to watch somebody create.

I think it just it points to the fact that like we have a

capacity that's outside of our understanding for this earthly

world. Like I think we have the ability

to imagine and see things that are different.

But for me, I just have this incredible ability to just like

create something that's not there.

Like whether it is a fear or whether it is like a thing for

the future or I can create something that I think I should

have. And like one of my greatest

fears is that I get everything that I want and it's not what

God wants for me. And you're like, if that's a

really good thing for me to just keep inside my head and that the

privileges that I think I deserve or I need or I should

have, like I, he gave up his divine privileges.

And so I need to be willing to give up this in this moment or

whatever it is. And sometimes it's like the

dumbest little thing, like the 10 minute, you know, freedom

that I wanted to be able to get my laundry done or something.

Like it's amazing how the little tiny life things can make me

forget that my purpose in life is to glorify God and to to love

and serve and obey him, like while I'm doing regular life

things. So it is all of that is just

really helpful for me to be convicted by and to think

through. And yeah, that's why that's why

I love memorizing scripture is because it's just there all the

time. Like you, you just get stuck to

you. And that's a that's a healthy

kind of sticking. Yeah.

What I wrote down. And I'm trying not to.

Yeah, I was really want, just wanted to reflect.

But we tend to, we tend to pit grace and obedience against each

other. So, but really the issue is, you

know, like devotion, like do I love God with my heart, soul,

mind, strength? Yeah.

And so like when you're talking about raising your kids and so

it's like, oh, there's a standard of perfection.

They need to obey, they need to perform.

Oh, and if they don't, I can give them grace.

God gives me grace. But really what you said before

is I want them to recognize their image, bearing love,

Jesus, share others, share that with others.

Like that's really the summary of what it means to be devoted

to God. And so, yeah, I guess I don't

know what the question is other than how is that growing?

Is it growing through work, through marriage, through

parenting, through service? Like, do you see all these

worlds kind of coming together and your devotion is growing?

I think it's. I think in the context that I'm

in. So when you think about the

church context where I serve and then you think about Home group

or home life and then work, they are all very different.

Like they all have different demands of my talent, time,

energy, and they all bring out my weaknesses and different ways

too. And so just thinking about the

balance of the balance of grace and obedience has never been

hard for me. And I don't know if it's because

I love obeying. I am a person who is happy to

have authority over me. That just tells me what to do.

Do you think it goes with like? The academic piece like here's

the rubric, here's the answer like it is the correct answer

and I'm clear, you know, is it? I think maybe.

But I also, and when I had a really amazing dad and so he was

very, he was authoritative in the right way where he would,

he, he trained us to just obey. If he said a word, we would just

go and do it. So like, I mean, I still

remember I was like 23 years old and he said van and I got up out

of my seat and started walking to the car before I realized

what I was doing. So I think there's a part of

that that I just, that's never bothered me to to, to feel like

I have to obey because I love someone.

That's never been a struggle for me.

And I am lucky enough that I obviously love Jason's really

easy to obey him. And like, I love our church and

where we serve. And so it's easy for me to do

that. I actually really enjoy my job.

So that's a very easy thing for me to do in that too.

So I think if I were conflicted and I didn't love that thing, it

would become harder. But that's where I think grace

and obedience actually makes sense in the light of the gospel

and with Jesus, because I love him.

So why would I not obey him? Like, and I'm thankful for what

he's done. So why would I not obey?

Like I still remember Jason sat down our kids one time and

they'd and had gotten in trouble for something.

Oh, he might have been like, I don't remember.

And he sat them down on time out bench and he said, why do we

discipline you? And and she was like, oh,

because I didn't listen. I didn't.

And he said, what does obey mean?

And we taught our kids like to listen and do what mom and daddy

say the first time with a happy heart.

And so he said, yes, OK, why do you obey?

Like what's the reason why? And she said it's because I love

you. And and Jason said, no, you obey

because we love you. Like you obey because we love

you so much that you know that us asking you to do something is

because we have your best interests at heart.

And we know we know that part of you.

And I think that's where it becomes a lot easier.

Like you can see it in parenting.

Like, Hey, I need you to stop. And I say stop because there

might be a car coming across the street and I am trying to save

your life, right? Or sometimes I say no, just to

be like, we listened just a moment.

And so I think that has been it's, it's not as hard for me.

I know we have plenty of people who struggle with the idea of,

well, there's all this grace and grace of bounds.

And so I don't need to obey. And, and I know that's not just

in our church. I mean, just in general, that's

like a thing where people are like, I'll, I'll obey later.

Like I'll let Grace cover this now and obey later.

But that's never really been the way that obedience has really

felt right to me. It's always felt like you should

obey because you love him and he asks you to.

And whatever he could ask of me is infinitely less than what

he's already done for me. And so I have to be OK with that

even in moments when I'm not. And that's why I memorize

scripture, to try to get myself in line with what he's telling

me to do when I'm not obedient to it.

And all of that is. Born out of a accurate picture

of who the Father is in his transcendence and his imminence

and his bigness and his smallness.

Because if it's just one or the other, I think that's where

you've got is transcendent. That we just obey because we're

fearful. And that is part of it.

Or if he is imminent, then he's with us and like there's grace

for that. And so we're good, you know, But

if you don't have both of those together, and I mean, this is

one of my favorite things that Moe says is it's not that it's

in untrue, it's just incomplete, you know.

And so I think what you're representing is this accurate

perspective of how we relate to God, because you really, you

understand who God is as much as you possibly can.

And you're holding both of those things in a good tension, not

trying to pick one over the other, but you're like, both of

these things are true at the same time.

And I know I have a lot more work.

To do right. So like I, I say this all the

time to the residents that I work with, but like, let's hope

that today is not the best version of who we are.

Like let's hope that every day we look back or every year we

look back and we're like, goodness, I'm so glad that I am

here now and I was not where I was a couple years ago.

And so I think that's encouraging.

I think that's encouraging to just to think like, hey, today

doesn't have to be I'm not supposed to be the best person I

am today. Like that's coming down the

road. As long as I continue to work

and make those little good decisions every day.

Because if you're having a bad. Day then that's really good news

OK well that's not the best that we are if you're having a really

good day then it's also like well this is also 9 the best

that we want to be I can be humbled you know, in that as

well yeah that's great you know helpful.

This is great. I'm.

Ready to go? I'm encouraged, yeah.

That's great, Jackie. I do just love your mind.

I love your thoughts and just the way that you do tell

stories, you know, I mean, for our listeners, I'll probably

listening to that story about New Zealand.

You're like, where is this going?

You know, but it does. You just have great mental

pictures and it is cool. Like in your job, you just get

to teach a lot. And so I just feel like I'm

always learning things from you as well.

But yeah, y'all let us know if you like this format.

We'd love to continue doing this just with other members and

leaders. But we are just grateful for

those who are carrying weight in the life of our church and

hopefully can just continue to share stories of how God is

changing us, making us better, and just how we get to enjoy

life in his presence. So Jackie, thanks for being with

us today. Thank you so much.

It's been a lot. Of fun in our conversations.