Episode 92: His Holiness Mar Awa III

In the name of the glorious Trinity, Father and Son and Holy

Spirit, forever Amen. Glory be to the everlasting

mercies which sent you to us. O Christ, the light of the world

and the life of all. Give us wisdom by Your law and

enlighten our impulses by Your knowledge.

Sanctify our souls by Your truth and grant that we may be

obedient to Your words and may fulfill Your commandments at

every hour. O You who enlightens the

rationale with the knowledge of Your greatness, do enlight, O my

Lord, our thoughts, that we may meditate upon Your holy and

divine Scriptures at all times. O Lord of all, Father and Son

and Holy Spirit, forever. Amen.

A little over two years ago, my brother Stephen, my sister

Adrino approached me and said, Robbie, we should have a podcast

series called the Oh no, actually I chose the word.

So I'm not going to let them bask in my glory.

I said, yeah, it's a great idea. How how about we call it the

double edged sword. Marta Day Parish Syrian Church

of these podcast ministry and by the grace of God and the

direction of God and the blessings of the church, we

began these series and here we are.

This is a special episode which is going to be extra blessed

double blessings we have with us today.

And it's my utmost pleasure and humility to present to you all,

my dear, beloved listeners and viewers, His Holiness Marawa,

the third Catholicos, Patriarch of the Holy Apostolic Catholic

as Syrian Church of the East, and the Bishop still of the

Diocese of California. Bless me, O Lord, Your Holiness,

it's an honor to have you on the episode.

Well, thank you Pastor Denard. It's my distinct joy to be with

all of you. I have followed the podcast

myself while I was in Albion at various intervals and from time

to time, so I'm very happy that now I'm able to be with all of

you in person. And God bless your your helpers

here as well. So they've done a good job.

Too. No, they say they're the

producers. Yeah, they're the producers.

And it's been with your inspiration and direction and

the love and zeal you we've, we've witnessed in your

Holiness, firstly for the Lord and then for the church.

And I'm sure that is the drive behind all those who are through

different means and mediums, you know, reaching out to people in

particularly in the Syrian Church of the East.

Your Holiness, we have many questions, but I was going to

ask you that question actually. Actually, your Holiness, have

you ever listened to the podcast?

But you beat me to. It I have I have.

What are your thoughts, Your Holiness?

Any recommendations? Any suggestions?

Any rebuking admonishments you have?

Well, I'm glad to see that you the, the topics are varied.

So that's very important. And you have guests that come on

from time to time. I don't know if you solicit

requests from the listeners with regard to which topic you'll be

discussing. I'm sure you do.

But that's, that's also important to address issues and

matters of faith that that the listeners, the faithful, those

who are interested, those who are inquiring would be

interested to hear about. But obviously this is part of

the English ministries of the church and that you're engaged

with, of course, here in the diocese.

And I'm very, very happy to, to see that it's, it's progressing.

And I'm sure that there are many listeners and many viewers as

well. I mean by the grace of God and

your blessings, your Holiness, your Holiness.

In an age of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, Spotify,

Podcasts, Tik Toks which the church cannot deny and cannot

turn a blind eye on, what is the church's stance and view on the

using or utilization of these mediums by the church in all its

different parts and aspects of the church?

Well, of course, today in our modern age of the Church always

makes use of social communications, which are

varied. You mentioned a number of them,

and I'm sure that Facebook would be one of the most well known

and most utilized by the faithful and by the listeners

who are listening to this podcast.

There are many others, of course, but our modern age calls

for the church to use modern instruments for the proclamation

of the Gospel. So when we look at the

Scriptures, especially the Gospels, we see that the apostle

of our Lord Jesus Christ 1st and of course the apostles, they

preached the, the, the word of God, they proclaimed it by word

of mouth because obviously the social context that they were in

was a very oral social context. People were were oriented in

terms of Speaking, of recounting, of telling, so that

word of mouth was very important.

And the scriptures weren't written then.

The Scriptures were not written. So maybe less than a generation

later, the writing of the Scriptures, the New Testament

scriptures, became very important as the apostles of

Christ gradually were martyred and they began to leave, leave

this world. Then that's when the Holy Spirit

inspired them to to write down what they had heard and seen

from Christ himself. But initially it was the

proclamation by word of mouth. Christ commanded His apostles

and Matthew 28 to go out and to proclaim the good news to all

people. He didn't command them to write

anything, but the Holy Spirit did direct them and did inspire

them to do so. So it was a very oral cultural

context. And of course, we as Assyrians,

for us even today, word of mouth is one of the means whereby we

get a word across or some news across, sometimes even gossip as

well, unfortunately. But that's part of our culture.

So we understand that that's very Semitic and that can be a

very good thing as well. But today's world has fashioned

other means through social media, the use of the computer,

of course, and other technical logical advances.

And the church has to also be updated in the use of these

instruments, modern day instruments for the proclamation

of the Gospel, because it's easier to spread the word of the

Gospel through such means today than as it was 2000 years ago.

By going on foot. Saint Paul did he?

He travelled much of Asia and Europe, you know, through by the

use of ships and by sailing and whatnot.

And the Missionaries of the Church of the East.

The missionaries of the Church, they travelled by foot to China

and other parts of Asia. So today the world has become

smaller and the the advances of technology are much greater, of

course, and so the Church must use them for the spreading of

the Gospel. And of course, in our various

dioceses and parishes all across the world, our hierarchy and our

clergy are trying to do just that.

This podcast, for example, is a very good example of how the

Word of God can be spread through the modern use of

technology and social communications.

And by its nature, social communications slash social

media should have as as its foundation the spreading of the

truth and of course, the truth of God.

It's not to be used as often times, unfortunately, we see

nowadays for means that are other than spreading the word of

God and for other often times even evil usages.

So we leave all of that aside as the church.

We use it for the good, and that good is the spreading of the

gospel. And I encourage all of our

parishes. We have that even in the Middle

East. So the world has become very

small, and we're using all of these technological means in

order to spread the gospel. Of course, other churches are

using them as well. And that's really at the

foundation of what social communications is all about.

It's not about spreading evil. It's not about spreading slander

or gossip. It's not about politicizing

issues for us as Christians, as believers.

It's about spreading the word of the gospel, the good news of our

Lord Jesus Christ, that in Him there is salvation for all men.

I mean saying James writes in his epistle that a fountain

cannot produce sweet and bitter water at the same time.

Do you does your Holiness think or maybe the church teams may be

inappropriate for a platform that is used for negativity,

immorality and what have you. And at the same time, we have

the preaching of the gospel and you know, the the gospel mean

Jesus Christ himself. Do you see there's some

inappropriate element there, Your Holiness?

Well, I do oftentimes hear from our clergy, certain clergy, of

course, and they say, oh, I'm not engaged in the use of social

media because it's an evil thing.

Well, it can be used for evil, obviously.

Unfortunately, that is the that is the possibility that we have

to somehow suffer because of human freedom.

And that's a reality that we we live in and that we experience.

But as the church, as bishops and priests, as those who are

proclaiming the Gospel, obviously we only use it for the

good. And anyone who is a believer

needs to only use social media for the good.

And we encourage all of those who are, who are directing or

who are guiding the social medias to keep in mind that

truth is what should be sought after.

And your Holiness as you as our spiritual Holy Father and those

who are listening at the moment, mainly I think the the young age

group. What is your paternal advice and

recommendation to those who do use these social medias?

Because we see, you know, calling a spade a spade and

realistically speaking, that at times even the children of the

church use these mediums for something that is not

appropriate and it does not relate to the Christian matter

that we have been instructed by the Scriptures to leave our life

according to the Scriptures itself.

Well, sadly, we see that as well, as I mentioned that that's

a part of our experience. But again, one who is a

Christian, one who is a faithful of the church, a son or daughter

of the church, and therefore a son or a daughter of Christ, he

or she should utterly avoid the use of social media for any

purpose. That's not wholesome.

So social media, of course, Facebook and we hear about

TikTok and other platforms as well.

They are not to be used as an expression of one's freedom in

the sense that I can do or say or express myself as I please.

So as Christians, as believers, there are always parameters for

us and our parameter is the gospel.

So if what I'm saying or posting or writing or sharing or

exchanging with others on any platform, if it is not in

conformity with the gospel, if it's not in conformity with my

calling as a Christian, then I should not be engaging in that.

And of course, this is directed towards our youth because our

youth, vast majority of them, they love the church and that's

a beautiful thing. But because they're still

maturing and they're still growing, unfortunately they're

also being influenced not only by the church, there are other

outside influences that are taking root in their minds.

And so they act on that as well. So they need to be very careful,

careful of. That I believe Saint Paul write.

Saint Paul writes in his epistle to the Corinthians, whatever you

do, you drink, you eat, do for the glory of God.

I think in Saint Paul was to write a letter to the churches

today. He would say whichever platform

you use, use it for the glory of God.

That's very true. And I'm sure Saint Paul, who is,

you know, the majority of the New Testament, of course,

belongs to his writings and he's travelled the farthest than any

other apostle. He's written and preached the

most than any other apostle according to statistics.

And he probably if he were living today would use the

various social media platforms that we have at our exposure and

disposal. So in any case, of course, the

guiding principle, and this is very important for our youth is

that does what I am posting or sharing or expressing.

Is it in conformity with the gospel?

It's a very simple litmus test, yet a very important one.

And if it's not in conformity with something that that

expresses our faith as Christians, I don't need to

share it. I don't need to express it.

I don't need to post it. So we we should have a moral

faith filter on what we're using and what we're doing.

I mean, Your Holiness, would you have any suggestions for this,

for this ministry as in respects to what topics you'd like the

ministry to to present and focus on?

As you know you, Your Holiness travels the world and you see

what is lacking, what is needing in all of the diocese.

What would you one or two topics?

What would Your Holiness recommend would be the most

important topic and issue that needs to be covered in in all

these ministers that we have, especially social media?

Well, I think more firstly, more broad topics or broader topics

such as Christian living, morality, and of course I

believe we will be discussing that in future podcasts and

other ways that I can live out or that one can live out his or

her faith as a Christian in today's modern world.

So the general principles of our faith according to the word of

Christ, according to the Gospel, and then those that are more

particular to the Assyrian Church of the East in terms of

our liturgy, the history of our church.

Maybe have a few podcasts on customs of the church.

There are often many older customs that our parents or

grandparents were accustomed to, or that we've heard from them

recount when they were children. But because of the vicissitudes

of time and circumstances of culture today, we don't practice

them or we don't hold on to them.

The traditions we're referring. To the traditions, we were

speaking about that earlier. So in order to be able to share

that, especially with our youth today, I think it's a beautiful

thing. We may not be able to actively

bring them back as something that's a part of our church life

today, but it's good to know of them.

For example, we were speaking about a lot of marriage

traditions, folk traditions that we had, but they were still

based on some theological or biblical concept.

And because of the social context today, often times,

unfortunately, we have sort of lost those beautiful traditions.

And the encouraging thing is Your Holiness, that when you

educate the youth in particular pertaining to marriage, because

the youth learning concern about marriage, they don't want to get

married. And when you present to them the

traditions like the, the placing of the ring of the bride by the

priest who is actually officiating and blessing the

bride in the room, the encouraging thing is that they

they want that. And many bride and grooms, Your

Holiness has been witness to this.

I've requested that your Holiness or the priest to place

the ring on the things. That's very encouraging that to

see that when the youth hear this, they want to bring those

traditions back. And as we were speaking in

holiness, it's not incumbent that they will do they need to

do this. But I think, and this is this

was not our argument, our discussion, but I think that

will be great to bring the traditions back because Saint

Paul, you know, some people frown upon the word tradition.

Some people think tradition is a bad word.

But Saint Paul, in his Second Epistle to the Thessedalonians,

right stand firm on the traditions that I have given

you, whether in Word or right. Of course, that's tradition with

a capital TT, the Apostolic tradition, which is the sort one

of the sources of revelation. And even the Scriptures, even

though they're written, are indeed a part of the Apostolic

tradition. But yes, the Church has a lot of

practices. As I mentioned, they're based on

the theology of the Church. So how does the Church express

her faith and her theology? It's through traditions.

It's through. They might be even folk

traditions, but there's something there that has a

biblical foundation, and that's how our people understood the

Scriptures. We have to realize and remember

that 100 years ago, 150 years ago, and this was true not only

in the Middle East, but across Europe and other parts of the

world. Not everyone had access to a

Bible. It was only the the

ecclesiastics, and it was also people who possibly could read

or could write. They had access to the

Scriptures and even centuries before that.

So the Church, through various means, taught them the

theological truths of our faith. We will do that.

You're holding us. Something that intrigues me is

the idioms within the community. The Assyrian community is when,

when the suitors go to ask for the hand in marriage, for the

bride's end in marriage, they say we will not eat.

We will not drink until we have been asked what, what our

purpose is. And this is what Abraham's

servant said when he went to ask yes for Rachel's and so.

They're all biblically based. So that's that's the beauty of

them. And again, because of today's

culture and the increased westernization of our faithful,

of our people and because of the movement out of the Middle East,

the context unfortunately has changed in some regards

unfortunately. And so we're not able to to keep

those very beautiful traditions that we've heard from our

grandparents and such. So.

Well, I think we should work on bringing them back.

That's another story. Your Holiness, you mentioned the

Middle East. I'm not going into the

political, you know, real men aspect.

But what are the challenges, the spiritual challenges of our

Christian brothers and sisters, not only the Assyrians, but

Christians in general in the Middle East?

Do you see that faith within the youth is not so much diminishing

but not having a integral part of life?

And what is Your Holiness witness these three or four

years that you've been residing there?

Well, in the Middle East there's a number of challenges and yes,

not only the Assyrian Christians, but other

Christians, other brothers and sisters, even close to our

nation are undergoing a lot of challenges.

There are obviously socio economic challenges, political

challenges, but in terms of practicing the faith because the

Christian population is steadily decreasing and although it's a

steady decrease, it is still at an alarming rate because there

are no Christians replacing those who are leaving Iraq,

Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey. It is a cause of alarm for all

of the churches. And of course, that takes a toll

on many things, on church attendance, on the ability to

have various aspects of church life simply because you don't

have the number of faithful. And so gradually the church as a

whole is struggling to keep the numbers of, of, of Christians

intact. And, and that's nearly

impossible because on, on the daily basis people are leaving,

unfortunately. And I've tried often times in my

sermons and in my talks to with the faithful to discourage

they're leaving the country. But there are many influences

that are out of our control, which is very sad.

So for people to attend services, for the youth groups

to be formed and to be strengthened, it becomes a

challenge to find personnel to work for the church and, and,

and carry out various projects for the church can be a

challenge itself. So that's in a nutshell.

That's really what we're going through.

One of the things that I've been along with our bishops as well

in the country, I've been trying to single out young men who

could be priests and deacons to serve in the church, because we

do have the need for a more robust clergy in Iraq and other

parts of the Middle East. We need bishops, we need

priests, we need deacons. So that's one of the points that

I'm trying to concentrate on. Of course, now we're in the

process of building the patriarchal seminary in Arbil,

which is on the, on the, it's contained within the patriarchal

complex, if you will. And so it is my hope, and I've

discussed that with our bishops and our last Synod last April,

that it will be not only serving Erbil or Iraq, but other parts

of the world as well. Because we need our clergy to be

trained in many fields, among them, of course, in our history,

liturgy, theology, faith, etcetera, so that they can

properly and correctly hand on the faith to to the parishes

wherever they're living. So it is my hope that from

across the world we'll have aspirants to come to the

patriarchal. What has been the response,

Casey? When you?

When you mentioned the seminary, is there an expression of

interest from any of the youth? Yes, there has been, there's

been a lot of interest from the clergy as well.

I think we need a more a more a strengthened campaign and

hopefully we'll be doing that soon, not simply to raise funds

for the continuation of the construction, but in order to

have future aspirants. So it's not just for training

future priests. We can have deacons come there.

It's also called a catechetical training center.

So those who would like to learn the basics of the faith of the

Church in order to be able to teach at their local parish

will, God willing, will also be a part of that program.

And of course there will be an in person aspect where you have

to be there personally, especially for those who want to

be priests and deacons. And then for catechetical

teachers and catechists will be will have online training for

them as well. And currently we have the

Naseebus Theological College in Sydney, Australia.

And I believe that Your Holiness was a lecturer and in this

college. Can you tell us a little about

that college? And you've visited the the

college itself. Yes, of course.

Well, the Serious Theological College is predominantly online

and it is an undergraduate and a graduate level theological

institution of the Church of the East.

It's run by the Archdiocese of Australia and New Zealand.

And the founder, of course, is his, The Attitude, Marmina's

principal, this is Grace Marvin Yaman.

And of course we have various clergy that are teaching the

courses there. As you mentioned, I was teaching

a course at the undergraduate level.

I was teaching sacraments one. So the first course on the

sacraments when they pulled me out of the the faculty there as

it. Were I heard you would give him

too much homework? Yes, yes.

I, I believe in homework, but it was a, it's a very good

institution. We have, the numbers are

increasing now from across the globe.

We have aspirants from different parts of the world.

And the idea is for the patriarchal seminary to be

joined with Nasebis in terms of the, the accreditation and the

granting of the the degrees which come through the the

College of the Divinity College of Sydney or Sydney College of

Divinity, which will be a university soon.

And although the seminary will predominantly be using Arabic

more as, as the language of instruction because Naseebus of

course teaches in English, but we will also have other

languages available. And so we have, we also have the

minor seminary in India, the Archdiocese of India.

And so I've asked that we also have that seminary be tied to,

to Nasiba. So His Beatitude Moroghan, our

metropolitan for the Archdiocese of India is looking into that.

So we want to have the three sort of be a consortium of

theological training in the Assyrian Church in the future.

The seminary in Erbil. When is it anticipated to be

opening? It's my hope that construction

will be completed this year. It may not be completed this

year and that all depends on funding.

So we'll have to look at because obviously during this the winter

months they can't continue their work hopefully by the spring of

next year at the latest and then maybe have the first academic

year in the fall of 2025. It's that's my hope.

And but we've already spoken with Nasibus and so they will be

producing in conjunction with the Patriarchal seminary.

They'll be producing the Arabic version of all of the courses

and the syllabi and everything that is being utilized at

Nasibus now. So it's sort of a mirror program

in Arabic. We might have courses in modern

Assyrian as well and possibly maybe through Naseeb Assef

English courses. But we have a lot of our people,

not only the Middle East, but who have left the Middle East

and come to the US, to North America, Canada, Australia, who

still because of their their elementary school training,

their high school training are more proficient in Arabic.

And so that will be the main language of instruction some

great. Endeavors to be embarking on.

Indeed, I'm very excited about it and the the Patriarchal

Seminary is a huge building. It's 3500 square meters and it's

three floors and it houses, of course, a Chapel, a library.

We have 18 ensuite rooms for the faculty and future students who

will be living there. This is the seminary.

This is the seminary and we have a large event hall which is the

garden level. And so it can be and we have a,

it'll be a state-of-the-art, a modern Conference Center because

we would like to host conferences there as well in

terms of inter church and and other events that we have which

are important to for us. To Will you be receiving guests,

Your Holiness? Let's say Steven wants to visit

Arbil. Can he stay at the seminary?

Free accommodation I'm I'm trying to get for you, Steven.

Yes. I don't know if he's going to

get free accommodation but he's more than welcome to come by.

Your Holiness, you mentioned conference and this year will be

one more time blessed with your audience anticipating, but you

have a a route you need to take from Canada to Phoenix.

Yes, I'll be in Canada on Sunday the 23rd.

I will be accompanied by his very small polls from Chicago

and then from there I proceed to to Phoenix, AZ for a week.

I'll be ordaining 2 new priests for that for the Diocese of

Western USA. Shamasha, Andrew.

Shamasha Andrew Yes, it was very well known for the OR with the

youth and Shamasha Ninos as well.

And so they will be serving in, in Phoenix and in Gilbert and in

surprise, which is it? It was being created as a

mission, but then it ended up being a parish.

They have a full time priest or they will be having a full time

priest now. And so there's quite a bit of

growth there. Of course, here in the Diocese

of California, we need assistant priests as well and, and, and

future parish priests to help. So we're still working on that,

among a lot of other things. Once at a time and prioritizing

obviously holiness and and we know that we're trusting God and

we are so confident in your leadership that everything will

come in its place according to God's perfect will and grace.

We pray every time your Holiness enters a a house honoring a an

invitation as soon as your Holiness sits in the chair.

The first question is, are you used to it?

How's how's how's the Middle East?

Let's once and for all ask that question so that it will not be

asked. I think it still will be after

the podcast. But that's OK.

Have you settled in your holiness?

Have you adapted? I have.

How difficult was it? Or was it just a breeze for

yourself? And.

Obviously, to begin with it it was it was a difficult change.

I had been to Arbel many times previously, but I had visited as

well. I had gone as a visitor.

So it's different when you're a visitor than when you arrive

there to stay and become a resident.

But I think there was a learning curve for me, which is natural.

So it took about a year, year and a half.

I'm settled in now because the Patriarchate has been built.

Of course, previously I was in a home that was rented and the

cathedral, the new Cathedral of the Holy Apostles has also been

completed. We're working on the seminary

now and, but there's a lot of other things we're doing the,

the, the other could the old cathedral, Saint John the

Baptist, Madiukan and Mamdana, you know, we have plans for,

because that's the, that's the, the main parish and Adebid slash

Ankawa, we have a lot of plans for that future there.

And then for other institutions, there's another project where we

have a building and land, and I'd like to turn that into a

preschool elementary school as well.

So obviously we don't have the massive numbers, but it would be

open to all of the Christians that are living in the area,

Syrians, Chaldeans, Syriacs without distinction.

But I think it's important to have institutions of learning.

That's that's very important. And there's other projects for

development for the future, some near some far further future,

but there's a lot of work that needs to be done.

Then we have the villages. We have the village of Diana,

which is not a village anymore. Really.

It's more of a town how D and there's some projects for

development there in terms of having a social Center for each

each of the the villages there for people to gather and have

activities. As I mentioned, I'm busy with

the training of clergy locally, the clergy for the patriarchal

diocese. And so we have a number of young

men who are studying now and some of them are deke have

recently been made deacons, some sub deacons and we're scouting

the young men that can be potential clergy for the church

there, which is not easy. Often times it's much more

difficult, but here in the US there is difficulty.

As well, there's always a challenge and I believe every

church is going through that challenge and the difficulty.

Indeed there is worldwide, there is a crisis in vocations across

the globe and that is really a result of globalization.

It's a result of the changes in socio economic structures that

we have in the world today. Maybe the faith is lessening as

well. Christ says in the gospels when

the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on faith on the face

of the earth? That's also an aspect, yes.

Now he didn't mean he will not find faith, but it's a

rhetorical question. And how much faith will there

be? And the quality of faith and of

course many other factors are also playing a role in the lives

of young men, of course, and their ability to hear the call

of God to come and serve the Church as ordained clergy.

Now I'm going to ask you questions that I'm constantly

asked for by the youth and different people about your

Holiness and we'd like to catch a tap into your not so much your

private affairs. No, we won't do that because but

your upbringing and how was experience in Rome?

Your Holiness spent six years. Was it your?

Yes, I was recently ordained a priest, just one month.

So I was made a priest in May of 1999, and by the end of June

1999 I was sent to Rome for higher theological studies and I

was there for a total of 6 years.

But before going into the university, I had a crash course

in Italian. For three months during the

summer. I was almost abandoned and not

abandoned, but I felt like I was abandoned in the village and.

And who could not, who could not speak English?

There was no word of English. The majority of them could not

and there were other students from different different

countries and so it was an interesting experience.

It was my first experience outside of the US, but by the

end of that summer period, I had learned Italian well and I had

grown accustomed to the new environment, and so I enjoyed

it. But I was there for six years

and I completed my master's and my doctorate after having left.

And I was assigned as a parish priest and as an assistant

priest in Los Angeles for a year, then as parish priest in

San Jose for about two years and 1/2.

And so I completed my doctorate in 2007.

And it was a difficult period because having taken on the role

of a parish priest during circumstances were that were not

very stable and and very pleasurable, unfortunately

during those those years in the San Jose area.

But with the grace and help of God, of course, I was able to

complete my doctorate. And so that was a growth

experience that really helped me, I think.

The Holiness you and I have served as deacons in one of the

services in Margaret's Cathedral in Chicago.

Back then you were you were young and a little bit reserved

and. In the 90s sometimes so for some

reason I don't remember it but but I'm sure it happens.

And back then, if you were to ask Shamasha, David or myself,

or if one Deacon would have approached me and said, see that

Shamasha, one day he will be leading the Church of God, the

same Church of these. It was just it was just not

there. So very briefly, Your Holiness,

walk us through that journey from your childhood.

I believe and let me let me share something and and with

your permission, the late your Auntie Julie, God rest his soul

and I and she said that David, allow me your your Holiness.

David would have a couch. Was it a couch that you admired?

And and one day, and I'm trying to remember this, it was sold by

your parents and you had come and asked where the couch was

and they had told you that we sold it.

You said no, but I've seen Jesus sit on that couch.

Do you recall that? It was just a make believe.

You have too good of a memory that's dangerous.

I do recall having a dream of our Lord when I was about 5:00

or so, and it was a couch that we had.

We were living in an apartment, Chicago.

It was a couch, it was a throne. It was a gold yellowish colored

couch. But I'm sure those who grew up

in the church, many of them have some sort of an experience.

And I did go through the system of the church's institution.

So through Sunday school, the youth group, at one point I was

president of our youth group at Marguerite Saint George.

Cathedral in Chicago. Didn't attend the celebrity or

the the celebrations of the youth.

You just attended the Bible studies and you were in a hotel

by yourself in the room and the ladies holiness was in another

room. And that was actually my first

conference. I'm revealing too much.

I think so. 1992, I was president of the youth group.

I was just 17 at the time and that was a very good experience,

I think because the late Patriarch Martin the 4th was

also visiting. It was in Connecticut, so he was

visiting Saint Thomas Parish. And of course I had come with

the Chicago Youth and we were all staying in the same hotel.

And so I think they had some sort of a party or some event

and, and I didn't attend, but I thought it was better to stay

with the patriarch at the hotel. So we spend an hour or two

together chatting and so. And this just this just shows

why you're so learned of the history of the church.

And I believe that his audience would share a lot of history of

the church. And because when we met, your

Holiness, you're you were a priest two, 2006 was the first

time we met, and we were both. Priests.

And I was astonished at how so much you were learned of the

history and the places and the villages and and then as time

went by, I put two and two together and I thought, oh,

that's why there it is. And and he's Holiness would have

received it from Anechnosha Marios of Metropolitan.

And his own experiences. His own experience.

I mean, what at what period of your life you, Your Holiness

knew or became aware or start to desire that this is going to be

my path? Did you feel a specific calling

like the, the, I'm going to call it the throne now, not the

chair? Did you feel that?

Was it a mindset? If I may share your Holiness,

when I was being ordained Deacon, from that point I knew I

was going to be one day by the grace of God only maybe I

desired it and put it in my mind and God determined the

footsteps, but I knew that I had this thing that I will enter the

priesthood one day. Did you have such an experience?

I did. So there were no harps or angels

singing or that sort of the opening of the heavens, but I

think it was a gradual process that began in childhood.

And of course, I'm very thankful to God for having given me

parents who were really God fearing.

And I learned to pray and to fast and to go to church from

them at an early age. So that's very essential.

And I was mentioned that the role that parents have in the

lives of their children is not simply to satisfy or supply

their bodily needs, their corporeal needs, their spiritual

needs, which is even greater. So I'm grateful for having had

parents that were keen on that. And as I mentioned, so I entered

through the various levels of the church's institutions from

Sunday school, the youth group as well, and then until I was

made a Deacon. But I always, it was something

that I always felt inside. And of course, I must say that

my mother, God rest her soul, was very, very supportive of my

vocation whenever I would mention that I, I desire to be a

priest. And she really enjoyed that my

father learned to to appreciate that after I became a.

Because he was being surprised every time.

Yes. Not that he was against my being

a priest, but having seen many things in the old country, as

they say, and some of the sufferings maybe that certain

priests or bishops have gone through, he thought to himself,

well, I don't want my son to go through that.

And that is something that I think every father obviously

would appreciate, can rightly so, yes.

I remember when I was, well, my, when my parents were informed

that I was being made a priest. We were in the basement of Saint

George Mario Ergue Cathedral in Chicago.

And I had served, I was a Deacon at the time, and I served the

liturgy with His Holiness the Late.

So he came down to the basement of the church, as was his

custom, and greet all of the people after Holy Kurban.

And he saw my father and my mother and my aunts, and he

turned to my father and said, oh, by the way, next month we're

making Shamasha a priest. And my father was astonished

because I had I had heard about it, but I didn't say anything.

And so the patriarch sort of just really shocked him at the

moment. And he said, but oh, your

holiness, he's too young. And he said, no, no, no, no,

he's not young. He said, next month we're going

to make him a priest. And so that's what happened.

But he, he learned to accept it and he was very, very happy

afterwards. He saw, I could see that he was

very joyful, as I mentioned, because I had heard many of the

stories and the troubles that the church had, especially in

the 50s and the 60s in the old country.

He was a witness to a lot of that.

So he did not want his son to go through that suffering.

Your Holiness, what is your advice or your encouraging words

for those parents whose sons are being called and they are a

little reluctant because of the fact of the suffering and the

the heartache? What would your suggestion,

recommendation, instruction be to those parents?

Well, of course, many of our parents today are really God

fearing. And it's possible that they

don't want their sons to enter the ordained ministry.

Not because they they don't love the priesthood or the diaconate,

or it's because of a lack of faith on their part, but because

they they see that in today's world, maybe the clergy or

priests are not as appreciated as they ought to be.

Or as I mentioned, they don't want their children to suffer in

any fashion, so they might not encourage them to enter the

priesthood. And Saint John Chrysostom, of

course, he, he speaks a lot about the priesthood.

He has writings on the priesthood.

He has two books that he's written on the priesthood.

And so he encourages by saying that there really is no greater

vocation on earth than the priesthood because everything

else that one engages in, a career or a job, yes, you can

have a very good job, you can make a lot of money, you can

have all of the comforts in life, but really that doesn't go

beyond this world. But what the priesthood offers

for anyone, for a believer, of course, is not only good for

this world, but for the next. So it's through the priesthood

that we have the sacraments, that we are taught the gospel,

that we become united to Christ. These all take place through the

ministry of the priesthood. And if we didn't have the

priesthood, we couldn't have all of these things.

So these are not only good for us as we live on earth, but they

are essential for our salvation, for our life After Earth.

And any other job that one engages in will not have that

two fold aspect, no matter how successful one is.

So it's, it's a great calling, it's a holy calling.

It's a vocation indeed from God himself.

So that's why I would encourage parents to encourage their sons,

of course, just the sons. So no daughters in this scenario

to, if they have an inward calling or an inclination to

serve God, to encourage that and to foster, that's very

important. And another thing is really,

we've seen that families where there's been a priest or a

Bishop or of course, or a Deacon serving, you'll see that God's

blessings extend to that family as well in many different ways.

It doesn't mean they're going to become richer, but they will be

enriched spiritually through the blessings of God.

So so parents need to encourage their young boys.

I mean we when we bless or we congratulate the the candidate

who has been ordained, we also bless and congratulate the

family. And I like the term, May your

holy order that has entered your home be blessed upon.

You. It's a joy and a blessing that

yes, the whole everyone who's associated with that newly

ordained priest receives that blessing.

And even when, as you know, in the in the ritual of the

blessing of matrimony, one of the blessings that the priest

recites upon the the groom is may priests come forth from your

loins, from your descendants. And so.

Resonates with a few people. Yes, you're holding us.

That's the parents. And and last episode we had our

brother, Deacon Colin, who received the holy orders at your

right hand. Who It was a good interview and

I think a lot of people were encouraged by it.

I did see it in in great part, yes.

Yeah, he's a good speaker. What would your suggestion and

your encouraging words be to those who are anticipating?

Maybe we say show desiring to approach, but there's something

that's holding them back. And you know, we always say that

I'm not worthy. I mean, I, my reply is who is

worthy? We are not worthy.

That's why we say in the liturgy, indeed, Lord, we are

not worthy. But what would your what would

your encouraging and driving words would be for those who are

maybe even just anticipating and maybe feeling that spark in

their heart that I want to approach the Holy Orders of the

Church? Well, of course, worthiness is

something that we already know. We serve and we're called to

serve by God despite our unworthiness.

God already knows that we're unworthy.

We don't need to tell him that we're not telling him anything

new. So we we need to get beyond

that. But when one desires that, well,

Saint Paul of course says he who desires the presbyterate, who

desires the diaconate, desireth a good thing.

And, and of course he gives the various criteria for how a

presbyter and a Deacon should live and how they should behave

and how they should be an example to the flock of Christ.

So that is really, it's something very blessed if one

has that desire. Now we believe that that desire

doesn't simply come from one's mind, but we often say that God

is calling one to serve. So it is a calling from the

Lord. It is a vocation.

And what you have to do is have your spiritual ears open and

listening to the voice of God. So you don't need to wait for

that. The angelic and the harp and the

opening of the heavens moment, it may not come.

You may not have that experience, you don't need to.

Why? Because we're already people of

faith. God uses the faith you already

have, but he builds on it, He blesses it, He allows you to

grow on that. So we need to have our spiritual

ears tuned to the voice of God. And often times, you know, we

don't. And young men miss their

vocations because of the various noises that we have around us,

distractions and they act as distractions.

So these earphones now are noise cancelling.

So I can't hear anything else for the most part.

And that's how our spiritual ears should be.

They should cancel the noise of the world around us and be

fine-tuned to hear the voice of God.

That's going to be my next pose, the spiritual noise counselor

canceling headphones. That's right.

As a God spoke, God speaks in a whisper, we read in the Old

Testament. Well, how did call would God

call the prophet Samuel? He whispered his name, I mean,

and so, so he was listening. He was able to perceive that and

and that's very important. And then he's listening with the

heart and the mind, not just the ears.

I promise you a holiness last question, challenges and hurdles

and stumbling blocks from the from your Bishop ears.

And now to the patriarch, you know when you were a Bishop you

only had to worry about the Diocese of California, but now

the entire church is looking up to your Holiness and you must

attend to all the issues and and requirements of the church.

What are some of the the main challenges your Holiness from

your Bishop time to patriarchy? You know, it's been my

experience, especially from those around me, that when one

is called from the diaconate to the priesthood after within the

first year says why? Why did I become a priest?

I was very comfortable as a Deacon.

And then when he's called to be a Bishop, one says, well, why

did I become a Bishop? I was very comfortable as a

priest and so on. There has to be a challenge or a

difficulty in our ministry. I do not know of one patriarch

within the history of the church or Bishop or priest who has not

had hurdles or challenges, and I think they're very important for

our ministry. Obviously we want everything to

be very clean and cut and comfortable and the way it

should be and day in and day out.

But life is not like that. Human experience is not like

that. We we live in a fallen world.

There will be mistakes. People make mistakes.

Sometimes we might make mistakes.

But when we're serving faithful, we know that Christ is faithful

and he will pick us up when we fall.

There's an anecdote that someone approached the monk, of course,

this is written many centuries ago.

And he said, well, what do you folks do in the in the

monastery? You know, your monastery is way

up on the mountain. What do you do there?

He said, well, we fall and get up and fall and get up and fall

and get up. And of course he was referring

to their spiritual battle. So now a priest who is serving

in the world and a Bishop who is a monk serving in the world

pastorally, etcetera. Often times we might fall in it,

but we need to get up through the grace of Christ.

So we, we have to have those challenges.

They're uncomfortable. We would rather not have them.

But I think they really help us to grow.

They help us to be better pastors.

They help us to understand that we should never, ever count on

our own abilities and our own strengths.

And they will remind us that any good that we have that exists in

US is due to the grace of Christ.

Everything else is our own doing.

So yes, I've had my own fair share of those as well.

And looking back years later, only then will you realize the

role that that difficult situation, that difficult

person, that unpleasant experience.

Later you will realize the importance of that that

happening. Trust in the law then do not

lean on your own understanding in all your ways.

Acknowledging I said last question, I promise you,

Holiness. I'll hold you to it.

This is the very last question now.

Those times, has there ever been times where as King David did

the crying out to the Lord, How long, Oh Lord?

How long is there ever been times where your Holiness as a,

as a patriarch, the Holy Father of the Church, but as a human

being where there has been a time because many people do and,

and they probably think, oh, it must be my faith and I don't

have faith. Oh, God's not listening to me.

Has there been time we've cried out to the Lord?

You know, what do I do? How long?

Why aren't you answering me? One of the the most important

lessons I learned after becoming a Bishop, and much of that

experience begins at that stage for me as a patriarch now, was

to learn to trust in God. No matter what happens or what

doesn't happen that should happen.

I leave it to the Lord. There have been times of

frustration, yes, there have been times where I've thrown my

hands up and said, well, I don't understand what's happening, but

maybe it's the grace of God. I haven't had that crying out

moment yet. Not like King David.

Not like King David. It may come, I don't know.

God only knows that, but I've learned to say, well, I don't

understand. I may not agree, I don't like

it, it's not the way it should be.

But Lord, this is your church, and I'm your servant, and I

leave it in your hands. Who was that Pope that went to

sleep and said I've done everything, now it's yours?

What was that? They say it was John the 23rd.

Before going to bed and turning off the lights, he used to say,

good Lord, oh good night Lord, I'm going to bed.

The church is yours doesn't belong to me.

I'll see you in the morning. I like that.

I like that the Holiness I did promise I will not allow.

But if Your Holiness has any closing comments, remarks,

suggestions, encouraging words of blessing and instruction,

please bless us with those. And we'd like you to also bless

this ministry. Thank you to all those who reach

out. We've had a lot of comments.

We've had a lot of both negative and positive feedback.

We love them both because we're not perfect.

We, we always expect negative feedback so that we can turn

those into positives for the glory of God and the salvation

of souls. Thank you for your support.

Please do share and like and subscribe and whatever you need

to do, you do. And hopefully the next hundredth

episode will have His Holiness with us again.

But I will now, Your Holiness, if you'd like to close with your

comments and bless this ministry.

With your prayers. Well, thank you very much,

Father. And I thank your elves in the

background. Maybe you should have them on

on. On the podcast, as guests on

this side of the microphone. No, no, let's keep them on the

other side from there. No, they're they're more than

welcome anytime. Well, God bless them both.

God bless you Stephen and Audrina.

I'm very happy that they're able to help you in in this ministry.

And it is a very important ministry.

I know that there are many, many English speaking faithful of the

church and maybe guests and not members, non members of the

Church of the East who are interested.

And I did see a few comments from other Christians who were

listening in on various episodes of the podcast.

So that's that's a a blessed fruit of this ministry.

And of course, I will keep you all in my prayers and thank you

continue the excellent work that you're doing and and I'll see

you in another 100 episodes. God willing not 100 is I forgot.

No less than 100. I'm holiest.

I, I must apologize to Holiness when the producers did approach

me regarding the ministry and I thought it was a great idea.

Obviously the permission was sought and your Holiness was a

patriarch, yes, gladly and joyfully blessed and said go

ahead, it's a good ministry. So thank you so much for your

blessed. Indeed, and I'm sure it's it's

producing much spiritual fruit. So God bless you all.

Glory to God, please bless us with a concluding prayer.

The name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

I mean, may the grace and benediction of God the Father of

the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the communion of the Holy

Spirit be with us all now, always and forever and ever.

Amen. Amen.

God bless you all. Thank you, Holiness.

We will have His Holiness back one more time.

We will be interviewing His Holiness and discussing the

declaration and the statement that was recently released.

I I forgot the title of the statement, the Holiness.

Yes, it's the synodal or synodical statement on Christian

marriage and issues of human sexuality.

I mean a very anticipated episode, a very temperamental,

what is a sensitive issue? But it is only fair for the

children of the church just to know and be educated as to where

the church stands on these issues.

So be waiting for our next episode.

God willing, we will be blessed one more time with the presence

of His Holiness. But Mario Holiness, thank you so

much and we appreciate it. Thank you

the we hope you enjoyed this week's message.

Please don't forget to rate and review this podcast and share

with your friends and family. For any future topics,

suggestions or to give us detailed feedback, please visit

our link in the show notes. Linktr dot EE forward slash

double edged sword. Until next time, God bless you

all.