S3E09 Fellowship: Triadology

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the fellowship. It's good

to be with you tonight. And Aaron and I is

going to be covering well, tridology is what it's called.

Everybody else calls it trinitarianism. But uh, that Baron's idea.

I didn't. I didn't make the counsel of nicea is

it not my idea? So a good place to start

with this is is, Aaron, why are you a trinitarian?

I mean, that's a good place to start. Why because

there doesn't come out and say it, that's not what

the Bible says, because it's what the Bible teaches. That's

all folks. That's a good night. Amen. Yeah.

Anyway, the reason why I'm a trend tarian is simply

that fact I have throughout my life, you know, debated

with a lot of you know, Unitarians, Arians, Muslims, and

what you'll find almost universally among them all is that

they don't believe the Bible is inerrant.

And that became very, very.

A profound revelation to me because because like what the

way the discussions would go is that we'll is that

that will point out a bunch of verses in the

Bible that they say supports their unitarian view or denies

the Trinity.

But then I'll.

Cite all verses that contradict that, and they'll just say

that was corrupted, or Paul wrote that, or all of

that is in the Gospel of John, and it's almost

and so in the end, what they're saying is inadvertently

is that the Bible.

Teaches the true.

If you view the Bible as in errant, it teaches

the Trinity. And here's the thing that I think is

always lost in this discussion. The idea that they argue

is that the Trinity arose as a result from gentile

Christians compromising with paganism. Here we go, But if you

study the history of the Trinity, you will see how

absolutely uncompromising it was. Like there are like tons of

different Nontrinitarian views that were formally condemned, including tritheism, the

view that there are three gods.

And that's a strange thing.

That is what's always were accused of as Trinitarians were

accused of believing there are three gods and idolatry and

all this, when that's it's been explicitly condemned, like Tritheism

is condemned by Christians, and it was condemned at the

very moment it was first proposed, right it was it

was declared as a heresy in the same sense.

You know, the idea.

That God Jesus is just the Father in a different form,

and to think about that, that's really easy, simple for

anybody to understand.

They're all the same person.

God's just doing this sometimes and doing another thing other times.

But no, they were not willing to compromise even a

little on that. They were like, Nope, that's not it.

Whatever it is, it's not that. And so you need

to understand that when we're getting into the Trinity, it's

extremely rigid theology.

And if you don't, the reason.

Why people don't like it is because it doesn't make

sense to them or it sounds like this thing to them.

But here's the issue. If you sit down and actually study,

you know what trinitarian is and is and I have

I've had they taking classes on this, and I would

say it's the number one thing that that has given

me peace throughout my times of turmoil. I have in

some of the darkest times in my life, I just

thought about the Trinity.

And how it's just so utterly profound it is.

You can never get to the end of it, you

can never fully understand it. But that's a beautiful thing.

I mean, it's a good way, a good indicator that

we're talking about God anyway, an infinite being. Like if

we're if we can put him in our box and

oh I got them all figured out, then then you're

probably not talking about God. I mean, God is infinitely

above us, beyond our comprehension, and if we can just

put him in this little box, you're already having issues.

I mean, it's a good sign.

I mean, it's not proof, but it's a very good

sign that we're talking about the infinite right here, something

that is beyond us. And another thing that I will

point out is that just because you don't understand it

doesn't mean it doesn't make logical sense. That's a very

important thing for you to understand, because if you study math,

if you're I think pretty much anybody who's a nontrinitarian

is probably or at least who use these arguments are

probably not a mathematician because they don't understand that there

is so much in math that you can't comprehend. I mean,

there are aspects also in astrophysics that don't make any sense,

like we only can understand three dimensions of reality, and

that scientists are out here saying that there are eleven.

Can you imagine there's something deeper than deep? There's like,

you know, we're only seeing three dimensions. You know how

many dimensions is that that we're not seeing with our

eyes and you know, you can't comprehend that, but it

makes sense logically, And so what we have to show

is that not we need to show that the premises

are true, that you're not contradicting yourself in the same terms.

Things aren't the same in the same sense that if

it was the same thing in the same sense, that

would be a contradiction. If I said that God is

one person in three persons that would be that would

be a contradiction. That's a lot of prediction, which is

not what we believe. And I'm and I'm but I

just wanted to underscore that first. Pretty much everyone's going

to say the Bible teaches the trinity, whether you like

it or not. And as you mentioned, it doesn't like

declare it directly says there are three in one. There's

this passage that was later inserted to the First Epistle

to John that says something like that, So people say, look,

the Trinity was added in the Bible, and we're like, no,

take that verse out, we don't need it, and.

So I will.

There are different forms of nontrinitarianism. There is, which is

the view that Jesus it's God's first, most perfect created being,

and basically they get this idea from this passage in

the New Testament that says he's the firstborn of all creation.

We'll get into that, of course.

But it affirms that Jesus existed before he was incarnate

as some kind of angelic being. They often, like Jehovah's witnesses,

will say that God created the universe through this first

created being, so they will affirm that Jesus created the universe.

And then there's unitarianism, which.

Is the view that Jesus was just a man.

He's just a normal dude, and he Sometimes they'll have

this kind of Buddhist type view that he became an

ascended master, so.

He became God.

And then there's the last kind of trinitarian heresy, which

is called modalism. And what's non trinitarian heresy and modalism

is the view I've mentioned it before that God, the

Father of this Son in the Holy Spirit are the

same person in different forms. And I'm going to show

to you why. Christians, so we're so adamantly that all

these three are not the thing.

You're missing one. But the ones who say there isn't

a trinity, there's just two.

Banetarianism.

Yeah, so they say there's just God the Father and

God the Son.

Yeah, and often they're more more they sound a bit

more like by Theism anyway, not not Banetarianism, because it

sounds like they're saying that there are two gods. But

well we'll talk about that. They're actually called a very

beautiful name. They're the new mental Mockianism. That's very fun

to say, numtual Mockianism. They're the people who were against

the spirit anyway. So I thought that was a good

precursor to begin with, unless do you have something.

That you want to say before we get into the scriptures.

Definitely you started something out and just just do you

just steam rolled right past me, which is good, but no,

you already knew that I talked to you that from

a child, that the reason why there's heretics is because

they reject the Bible. But you just had to figure

that out for your own and it took you while

to figure out, Wait a minute, you're quoting scriptures here

because you're saying all the other all the other scriptures

are corruptions. So it took you a while to catch

up to the simple fact that know they're rejectionist. Yes, now,

let us start from right here. Everybody needs to understand

what a heretic has always been. A heretic has always

been that individual that rejects what the Bible says. You

are a heretic because you're in violation of God's work.

So you really have to start there before you go anywhere.

I mean, that's why I have come to that special

place where you know. I just I've learned enough that

in private I will ask them, okay, do you believe

the Bible is inspired, in errant, and infallible? And I

make them give me some definitions for those three things.

If they are not those three things, I do not

enter into a public discourse with them. You're wasting your time.

I would say there's one exception.

I would say Jehovah's witnesses Jehovah's witnesses would say that

the Bible is an errant as long as it's translated correctly.

And we have the records that say that the people

who translated, the whole council of people who translated the

Jehovah's witness translation, what do they call it, the Watchtower?

Yeah, yeah, the watch Tower. Only one of them knew

anything about Greek.

About anything about Greek, right, and it includes that's what

the get like ad words in there to qualify, but

literally it's just adding works.

Well, you're right, I didn't qualify that. The first they

have to state that the Bible is actually the Hebrew

and the Greek. It is not a translation. If they

don't get past that, and you don't realize that eliminates

probably about fifty percent of your at least you're Americanized Christians,

because half of them believe know the kJ Jesus actually

spoke in Elizabethan. They actually will state, no, it's the

KJV translation, that's actually God words. So yeah, you're right,

I have to get past that. If if I get

past those questions, then I say, is it inspired in

er infallible?

There is no non scholarly translation that has produced anything

that sounds like the Jehovah's Witness translation, like they like

their their translation of John one. One says that the

word was a god right No, scholar.

No, that's because Greek doesn't support them. I mean they their.

Whole argument is that there's not a definite article before.

They all send the end of the the end of

the verse. But you don't need it there if it's

implied by the grammar.

By the grammar, so the grammar is so complicated it

drives you to that end.

Yeah, Greek is not very ambiguous compared to like people

who you can struggle a little bit with.

Greek is so rigid, it's so specific. So I'm just

going to start well, I mean normally this is where

I begin. And if somebody asked me, why are why

do you believe that God's you know, a trinity? I

always start here. I started right here with you if

I remember correctly, well, I mean I don't have to

course now, I always start right here, and I am

extremely habitual when it comes to God's word, and just

train myself to if you're going to talk about the Trinity,

just go here. So right here it is given to

you in the greeting, the divine greeting in Revelation chapter one,

and I quote John to the seven churches which are

in Asia, grace and peace to you, from him who

is and who was, and who is to come, and

from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and

from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the first born from

the dead, the ruler over all the kings of the earth,

to whom loved us and washed us from our sins

by his own blood. Right there freadom and weak. That

is three divine greetings. There is you look at this

in the Greek you cannot play hopscotch around it. It

categorically is telling you this is three different greetings from

three divine Well, I don't want to see.

I can't say be persons, persons, hypostaces. I've actually to

prefer the term hypostaces. I will talk about it. The

Latin Christianity chose the term persona or person to describe them,

but the East, the East, the Greek speakers chose hypostasis.

And I prefer that now, as I did an article

on my Patreon about this why I prefer hypostasis. But

this isn't the first time this happens. I wanted I

wanted him to read that out, that specific passage, because

that's what he's used to me before. But you see

something similar in Matthew twenty eight, verse nineteen, Go therefore

and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the

name of the Father and of the Son and of

the Holy Spirit. And then first Corinthians, let's hop to

eight six, and it reads, Yet for us there is

one God, the Father, from whom all things and for

whom we exist, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom

all things and through whom all exists. Sorry, wrong passage, we'll.

Get to that.

Life's second Corinthians thirteen fourteen.

Forgive me.

It says, the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and

of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be

with you. And this isn't This happens repeatedly throughout the

New Testament. This this triad language, it's called a Trinitarian formula,

where all three are named in order. Never does the

text call them three. It never uses that language. It

just names the three. I mean, you can count them

on your fingers. But it never says God is three

or there are three in God. They just name the

just name three in the same breath, right, And this

was something that came up with, you know that heresy

that you mentioned the Binetarian know, the view that there's

only the Son and the Father.

This was the first problem that the church fallows have

with it.

They were like, yeah, well, why would that would be

random to say God, the Father, God, the Son, these

are God and then just randomly at the end always

blatch on the Spirit like, but you're not God anyway.

So this is where we need to start this this

sort of like referring to these three persons as God

in the same breath.

What does that mean?

It doesn't quite say quite yet, at least on their own,

but they but they should was what.

The what God comprise us?

Of which I'm careful with using that language because God

is absolutely one?

How is he one? We'll get into that.

So let's talk about the problem with the trinity that

I had when I was a kid. It was the

thing that made me struggle with my faith very young,

and it was we were reading a passage where Jesus

was in the garden of Gasmine and he was praying

to the Father.

He was praying to God.

And I was like, well, how can Jesus pray to

God if he is God? And you know I was

the first one to say this. I mean, you can

go on Facebook and you can see memes where people think, oh,

this disproves the Trinity.

Jesus is praying to himself.

And actually it turns out that actually doesn't refute the trinity.

It refutes a nontrinitarian position and called oneness or modalism,

which I mentioned. Jesus didn't pray to himself. We can

all agree to that. Jesus was praying to the same person,

the same hypostasis. He was praying to the Father.

Can I interject here? The reason why he was doing

that was because all decisions, all decisions are made on

that throne. Jesus was not on that throw you already said.

Jesus was in the garden of Yseimite, right right, So

all decisions emanate from that throne. And he was asking

in one of the most famous questions, he was asking

that that outcome could be changed, right, He said it,

you know, take this cup for me, if you know right,

take this cup for me. But your will be done,

not in mine. He was saying that he would not

Oh uh, how do you I'm I'm kind of afraid

to use that type of language.

But well, but ultimately he is Jesus isn't talking to himself.

He's talking to someone who shares the same essence and

nature is him, but he's not talking to the same person.

That would be ridiculous, right, which is why modalism is stupid.

I mean, that's not the only time you find something ridiculous. Well,

like like let's go to let's let's go to Jesus' baptism.

As soon as he descends into the water from the

from the heavens, the Father says, this is my beloved son,

and down from the Father, down from heaven descends the

spirit in the form of a god and comes rest

on Jesus. If you're a modalist, what is the world

is happening? Because see he's telling himself, you are my son.

I love you.

I mean, that's kind of like reminds me of those cartoons,

you know, where bugs Bunny would dress up as another

person and talk to himself, right, and and then people

around him would think that they would he was actually

having a conversation. It's it's it's ridiculous, but less. But

last of all, there's also a passage in John that says,

if if I testify only of myself, my testimony is

not true.

Is not true. And he's actually appealing here to the

two witness language.

The father is my testifies about me, So he's saying

that if I was my only witness, then my testimony

wouldn't be true. But the father is testifying of him,

So if they're the same person, then his whole argument

makes zero sense because he's saying, my testimony wouldn't be

true if I was the only witness.

And you know, I wish you wouldn't use that term

modalism because that's a bad word. So heretics don't use

that word. They use oneness. Now that's something everybody can

grab a hold of, right. It is called you know,

oneness theology.

Yeah, and.

This is advertised you you can readily get these heretic denominations,

these heretic churches if you just ask them. So you

practice a oneness doctrine, you'll know. So don't think that

this this this modalism term is quite broadly used, especially

in the United States.

It's not brothers, if you were baptized in one of

these denominations. You have to be baptized again, right because

of exact amundo, because they purposely when they baptize you,

they purpose the only baptized in the name of Jesus

instead of the Father sign and only spirit. Yes, so

you need to be rebaptized. If you were baptized under them.

I bet you got some attention there. Yeah, yeah, you

could have been baptized into heresy actually, and these heretics

are good at their game, right, yeah, all right, let's

move on. I don't want to spend too much time,

and let's just want to make sure that everybody realized

that this modalism has been hidden in broad daylight.

John chapter seventeen. I've actually had Muslims go to this

passage to say, oh, Jesus isn't God. But you know,

Muslims they don't like actually reading the Bible since I'll

all corrupted to them anyway, So what in the world

are they doing using my scriptures against me?

Anyway?

Starting on the verse first, Jesus starts praying, saying, Father,

the hour has come glorify your son. That the son

may glorify you, since you have given him authority over

all flesh, so giving me, so give eternal life to

all whom you have given him. And this is eternal

life that they know. You the only true God. And

Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth,

having accomplished the work which you gave me to do.

And now Father, glorify me in your own presence, with

the glory and that I had with you before the

world existed. So they only read the verse three. They say, well,

saying the Father's the only true God. That he says,

and Jesus Christ. And you can see how ridiculous that

reading is. In verse five, it says, Father, glorify me

in your own presence, with the glory that I had

with you, had before the world existed. Yes, past tense.

When he's talking about having glory with the Father, he

knows what language he's using, he knows what scriptures everyone

else knows he's quoting, because when we go just go

to Isaiah forty two, right verse eight, and it says,

I am the Lord, that is my name, my glory

I give to no other from my praise, nor my

praise to carved idols. So in that passage it's denying polytheism.

It's saying that there's no one, there's no other with

whom he shares his glory. Right, But Jesus here obviously

knows about this passage. He quotes from Isaiah all the time.

So when he's unit in this language, he's saying that

the glory that he shares with the Father is not another.

He doesn't have another glory glory. So Jesus implicitly, even

though he doesn't say it, he's denying tri theism. And

he's also at the same time implying a sort of

trinitarian function within the Godhead because he's saying that the

Father and the Son are different, different somethings, but they're

not another in such a sense that there are other gods.

Jesus is within this language already shooting down some birds.

So with that in mind, Jesus when he says the

One True God, he's not denying who he is as

a person, right, but he shares this glory with the

Father eternally. It's not something that he just gains, is something.

He always had. Well. The thing about it is so

language is saying that he shared it before, he shared

it before. Now he's not.

Right.

So and he's saying he's going to share it with

him again, right, So this should tell you that he's well.

All the last podcast, let me do this. Let me

ask you this verse five. How else would the trinity

have worded that. That's the only way that the Trinity

could have warned that is this way. And like I said,

the Greek is very exacting here with its case and

tense and now O father, So the son is directing

this to the father, glorify me together with yourself, with

the glory with which I had with you before the

world was So he's saying that they are one. They

were one, now they're not one, but they're going to

be one again. So how else would he have worded that?

So I would I wouldn't use that sort of language

that you just said, because they were, They're always one,

they never stopped being one. However, he did empty himself

of his glory. That's what I'm trying to say. You're right,

Thank you for correcting me. Okay, the glory.

I didn't say he separated himself from the Father, but

he separated himself from the glory. The glory is what

was separated, right, And This is very important. We talked

about this in the last podcast.

There's this sense in which you can see because unitarians

will also use this, these passages against you, those that

seem to imply that Jesus gained glory, that he was exalted.

There's even in those same passages there's an idea that

he had glory beforehand and was eternally, you know, within

the Father. So but how how can they be more

than one? And yet there's not three gods? Well, Jesus

clarifies a little bit, not as much clarification as you

may want, but they but it tells you a lot

in verse twenty one in the same chapter John seventeen,

that they may all be one, just as you the

Father are in me and.

I in you.

And there's a lot of passages that says that the

Father is in me and I in the Father, and

they call this. I would say it was probably my

most frustrating experience in the Trinitarian class that I took,

because like, we had gotten so far and I was like,

I got it all figured out.

It makes sense. But no, you can't.

You can't like take God and say, Jesus is this

the Father is that and it's just this perfect clear

cut here it says that not only is Jesus in

the Father, but the Father is at the same time

in the sun. And it's called in Trinitarian language perry

caoresis the mutual in dwelling. They're dwelling in each other

at the same time. And since this is how this

ultimate unity of God exists, how there's only one God

and we can't say that there are you know, three beings,

because God is because these and it's probably why we

never see this three language in the scripture is because

there there's this idea that you're not able to divide them.

Can I interject here? Go ahead, that's why there's only

one throne. When you go to the Book of Revelation,

it's very clear that the land, looking as if it

had had been slain, was in the midst of the throne.

There's only one throne. Yet it's saying that Jesus was

in the middle of the throne or the midst of

the throne, whichever translation you're used, or also the language

of in the bosom of the Father and the bosom yes,

and also which is which is another way of defining

something being the midst it's it's it's it's it's enveloped. Yes,

and so we.

So this is one of the things that you know,

I'm I'm reading the Koran and all of it's it's

criticisms of trinitarianism, because ultimately it doesn't criticize the trinity.

It just criticizes tritheism because you're like, okay, well, you

don't understand what the trinity is anyway, but you're when

you're looking at it, and like one of the lines

in there says, do not say three, only say one.

I'm like, okay, well I can. I don't have to

say the language three.

Okay, I don't have to might this peri creesis doctrine

allows me to say that, well, we'll think about this.

God has God has wisdom, he has justice, and he

has truth. Let's say those are those are three attributes

of God. But does not mean that God has three

in him. No, But you know, you're just counting them

and just saying that this is not that like you

can distinguish his justice from his wisdom, right, They're they're

they're distinct ideas and in the same sense, a hypostasis

within God is kind of like an attribute, although it's

more than an attribute, but it's kind of like that.

So you can't like say.

That there are you can You're you're cutting God up

into three parts by saying that he's He's truth and

justice and wisdom. You're not dividing God by saying that,

You're just saying that those are three things within God

is not necessarily doing that. It's just identifying aspects that

exist within him eternally.

Well, let's let's let's cross. I don't know if I'm

want to cross this barrier or not, but one thing's

for sure that we're going to get back to the

verse that I mean, you kind of read right past

it and it's kind of a one hundred and forty

four one thousand dollars detonation right there. Okay, it says

verse twenty one that they all may be one as

you are in me and I in you, that they

also may be one in us. So let us take

note that this boy, I'm just hesitant to use any

type of phraseology. Okay, are they these individual things? What?

What are you calling them? They're individual persons or their

individual what?

Why?

I prefer hypostasis? They're they're they're yeah, but the individual

ones is what so each is called a hypostasis. Okay,

all right, So anyway, God the Father, his hypostasis cannot

endwell us, Jesus Christ, his hypostasis cannot endwelp us. But

the Holy Spirit that divine hypostasis and and dwell in

us and make us one in the spirit. And that's

what this is saying.

You remember how we talked in the last show. We

were talking about how theosis. We're talking about how after

christis is exalted, the exalts human nature, he allows human

nature to be he divinized, he corrects the problem. Yeah,

So here it says that they're going to make us

them one as I am one in you. And this

is possible because we are united into His body, yes,

which has been divinized in the incarnation, and he is

united human nature to himself. And there by by being

unified with Christ, we are able to be united with

the divine essence. So that's what it's that's what I

would say. It's it's talking about that this Holy through

the Holy Spirit, were able to be brought in the

same situation. Like I also talked about how we are

being as part of the body of Christ. We are

going to participate in the inner life of the Trinity.

The love that Christ has towards the Father. Yes, love

that the Father directs towards us. Yes. So that's what

it's talking about here. The Unitarians are going to say

that this means that when Jesus says that I am

one with the Father and all this sort of thing,

they're going to use this verse to say that he's

just one in the same sense as all other Christians

will be. That can't be the case if you just

go to verse five, he says, I had that glory prior.

I had the glory before all of this. Yeah. So, so.

Was there anything more you wanted to say on that point, Well,

then I will talk about the thing that's helped me

a lot. Let's talk about the fact that the scripture

calls Jesus the Son of God. And I've noticed that

this is a struggle that particularly children have. I've had

talk to children and I'm like, well, Jesus is God,

and they're like, no, he's the son of God. Well,

how can you Jesus be God and the son of God?

And then in that sense, it sounds like a contradiction,

doesn't it well until you explain to them, Adam, Yeah,

let's let's let's go to I accidentally read this verse before,

but let's go to First Corinthians eight, verse six. Yet

for us there is one God, the Father, from whom

all things exist and for whom we exist, and one Lord,

Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom

we exist. This is a creed. As I mentioned before,

he's reciting something the Christians had been saying before. Everyone

knew this this sort of language. Either he's referring to

a hymn that they had or a creed that they

would recite to affirm their belief. This is very clearly

a reference to the Shamah prayer in Deuteronomy six, verse four.

Hero is really wow is relief. Hero Israel. The Lord

our God. The Lord is one. And this is the

language that the Jews are always going to go to.

This passage to support their view.

But here it's saying when it says that Jesus is

one Lord and the Father is one God, we have

to understand it in reference to this this verse, it says,

the Lord is our God.

Yes, the Lord is one. This is and this term.

One here does not mean a unit, only one thing,

but a unity. It's the same sort of language that's

used for that. They show the two shall become one

flesh in Genesis chapter two. Right. So the term God

in Hebrew, so the language that the early Church wanted

to use, which we use now like Trinitarians will now

say that Jesus is God. The earliest Christians they didn't

use that language because to them, the term God was

the name of the Father. In Hebrew, that would have

been Aloheen, and but the name of the Sun was Yeahweh.

That is what we would call the Lord. And that's

why Jesus is constantly called the Lord, Jesus Christ. And

also when when we have that passage in Roman chapter

ten that says, if you confess that Jesus is Lord,

your saved, and that's a reference to in the Book

of Joel that says that it says, if you confess

the name of Yahweh, you will be saved. So there's

this understanding that Jesus is the name the tetragrammaton, but

the Father is Elohem, and so that's the language that

it's saying. So when it says that he is the

son of God. It's saying that he is the son

of Eloheath. If you're talking about these in terms of names,

and so if they were to say, if the Bible

did say that Jesus is God under those terms, then

it would sound like modalism, right, the same person in

different forms.

Right, same person in the different form.

Right. So that's why it doesn't use that specific language.

But when we when we say God, we're not referring

to the name of the Father.

We're talking about the divine essence.

When we say that Jesus is God, we're saying that

he is. He is the divine essence. He is that

one thing that we worship.

Right, agreed, And like I said, what's your that essence?

Where it's at. It's on that throne. Okay, Jesus can

go wherever he wants to. Yeah, And just right now,

as these verses plainly stated, that's where Jesus is right now.

He's in the midst of the throne. He is sharing

that glory with the Father right now. Hebrews chapter ten,

verses eleven through fourteen comes right out and tells you why,

tells you why. As long as he is there, he

is perfecting those who are being sanctified. This is what

creates the church age. As soon as that changes, the

church age is over. So it's pretty important that people

no one understands that you cannot stray to the right

or to the left of this truth because if you do,

the whole thing falls apart. The whole thing falls apart. Right,

you come to the to the place where you know

you are a born again Bible believing, gospel preaching Christian,

but yet you have entire sections of your mind that

are in chaos. This whole thing works, It really does work.

And that's why these heretics always do this. They come

in and get you to disbelieve God's work. Yeah, and.

As we talked about in the prior podcast, that's why

these two ended up just going completely completely together. Is

that really you understand that these verses that these heretics

are using to support their position really don't make sense

without trinitarianism. That's why they have to just say that

to say that this part's corrupted, right, They like, you

can't just say this and then that, you know, without

having to do that, without without having to, you know,

admit that that we believe that there's no such thing

as contradiction in the Bible. We don't we think that

we believe in the law of non contradiction, right, I

don't know. And so for the same sense, like we

have Christians have since the very dawn of our faith,

have had a very rigid way of understanding this, and

we've worked it out in a way that doesn't contradict.

It's logical, it's coherent, and we don't need to say

that the Bible isn't God's word just.

To get there. I mean, we can.

We can glorify that which She's given us with, you know,

and at the same time get doctrine out of that.

Like how do we parse these Like when we're having

these verses of Jesus praying to the Father, ultimately that

just points to the fact that there's more than one person, right.

We have these verses that says that more than one hypostasis. Yeah,

and then they have these verses that say that Jesus

became God. But that doesn't make sense without the incarnation.

The whole.

When we say that Jesus is becoming something at his resurrection,

that only makes sense within our framework, right, with the

framework of the incarnation, because he's doing this on purpose.

He became, He emptied himself so that he could give

anice human nature that he.

Could do it again and correct Adam's mistake. Right, this

is the purpose. The only way he could do that

was too well, I'm afraid to say that. I'm just

afraid to say it, but I have to say it.

The only way he could do that was by relieving

himself of the glory. He had to and become what

we were to and elevate it. And that's why, well,

I've I've tried to teach you to be habitual, okay,

because there again you said persons. That's why I want

you to make a decision. You need you need to

refer to them as a being or a person, because

can you keep forgetting to say hyperstasis? Right, we can't

say being anymore.

But the reason why I think we why I chose

hypostasis over person, sorry for the habit. The reason why

I think hypostasis is better than person is because person

in this Trinitarian language doesn't mean the same thing as

it does in modern English. Because they're just using the

Latin word persona, which means a mask. It doesn't mean

something with an individual will? Could you define a person

by their will? Right, like you're separate? But trinitarian doesn't

view that the father and the son could have a

different will. They have the same will. So when you

use that language, it's just misleading to a modern English speaker.

So I do so, I do agree. Yeah, I agree,

I agree. And if you would just train yourself to

do that. But you know you've contradicted yourself like four

times now, yes, i'll, I'll yeah.

So what is wrong with saying be because that implies

in nature?

Okay, what about entity? Implies in nature? So so you're

being forced to use person.

You're being forced to use hypostasis. Yeah, well, then use hypostasis.

I'm good with that, but you need to do it

every single time because if you don't, you're confusing them.

Yep, hypostasis, let's go with that. Hypostatis sounds cooler too anyway,

But it's interesting, it's very you because hypostasis, in the

study of ancient Near Eastern religions is the idea.

That there was this.

There was a difference between the god in heaven and

its presence on the earth. There was let's just use examples.

There was ishtar of this city and ishtar of that.

There was a ball of this in all of that city,

and you'll look into that and you'll realize that these different,

these different forms of this God had different wives, he

had different myths, and it was almost like he was

a different person even though he was seen as the

same thing. So there was this this already this idea

that there's the one in heaven and then he can

manifest himself in different ways in the world. That is

distinct almost, And so when we use that, when we

see it in the Old Testament, we're not surprised because

this is how these people already think. When we see,

you know, Jesus, when we see Jacob wrestling with God,

right that person that they call, you know, the Messenger

of the Lord. They are there's already this idea. It

doesn't need to sit there and explain a trinity to you,

because this is already an idea that the ancient people understand,

that that that God, although he's in heaven, he can

also have a physical exist in several locations at the

same time.

An avatar, yeah, something like that.

Except these things are a bit more than just a manifestation.

They also have their own distinctness, just as the father

is not the same as the son, like the son,

the father loves the son, the son loves the father.

So there's the sense that there's a distinctness from them

in the same sense. So hypostasis is very useful because

not only does it make sense in Trinitarian theology and

in our history, but it's also used among academics to

describe this sort of idea and the engineer East that

is very very much similar and obviously where this view

arose from in the our scriptures.

Well, and I agree with it, and don't make me.

You know, I can invent words. You know that, right,

don't tent me. But it's just I'm just just saying

that if that's what you're going to use, use e

quit saying person.

Yes, But we have these passages that say that Jesus

proceeded from the Father and this idea that he was

begotten the Father.

And then we also read in Hebrews one last time,

I can read it again of verse three, he is

the radiance of the glory of God, the exact imprint

of his nature, which will pull the universe through the

word of his power. And so he is like you

you view kind of like the son, and out from

the sun radiates you know light, you know the rays

of light. So there's this idea with the radiance that

Jesus is rating out, radiating out from the Father.

Saul.

In the chapter two Yep, Verse seven, it says, the

Lord said to me, you wore my son today.

I have begotten you.

Yes, And so there's this idea that God is begetting him.

And even in verse six when it says I have

I have set my king on the holy yell, I

believe that. In Hebrew, I'll confirm it. There was an

article that I found that kind of implies that it's

more like just pouring out, just not setting or installing.

It's literally, yeah, it's in a sock. In Hebrew, it's

he's like pouring out from the Father's being. And so

when Jesus says I have proceeded in from the Father,

it's not just some sort of metaphor that the Father

is just sending him into the world. He's going out

from the Father. There's this kind of sense of just

that he's coming out of his being, right, not in

some sense that they kind of like bike off into

like has two different cells.

Let me explain. But you got to explain as if

Heaven is the picture and God is the water and

Jesus was poured out of the picture and fell to

the earth. Okay, God is still the water in the picture.

Let me say that again. The picture is heaven. That's

what it's saying. That's what he's trying to get you

to see.

Another thing is is this power language and that Jesus

is a power like in verse Luke twenty one, twenty seven,

you will see the Son of Man coming in a

cloud with power, power, great glory, And it says Mark

fourteen sixty, I am, and you shall see the Son

of Man seated at the right hand of power from

Daniel and then again and I'll just stop at Romans

that he was declared the son of God with power.

All right.

And so there's this this this constant language of with power.

And we also have this language in acts that he

clothed the apostles with what power. And it also we

know in context is talking about the baptism of the

Holy Spirit. They received the Holy Spirit and so they

were clothed with power, and so we have three powers us.

Thank you for bringing that up. It's Romans won floor.

It says that he was declared to be the son

of God with power of course, into the spirit of holiness.

So when we look at this power language and this

flowing out language and you put it into context of

the Hebrew, we find in the Talmud discussions of an

idea called the two Powers in Heaven, and it was

a Jewish debate, and it's basically identical to the Christian

discussion about the Trinity and the Old Testament. That there's

that that there's the sense of there are two Yahwehs

at the same time, and they kind of tried to

dance around this issue, like the Pharisees are ultimately the

reason why Unitarianism became a thing. They were trying to

dance around these passages of how like how is Yahweh

sending Yahweh into the world to give give messages to

people and wrestle with people and all of this. And

so the sort of language that they used at the

time was two powers. And in Hebrew that term is

rashood and it comes from a word ray sheet or

bear sheet. As we see in the scriptures, we also

see these passages of Jesus being called the beginning, the beginning.

It's the same language in Hebrew. If you understand what

a rare sheet is literally, it means ahead. And so

when you say the beginning, you mean the head of things,

the first, the one in the front. And then when

you have another sense in which it means a tributary,

not a tributary, a distributary of a of a river. Right,

remember the garden from the Garden of Eden, the river

broke into three, broken into heads. This uses that same

word three heads foreheads, sorry, And and then it can

be understood in the sense of power, the head of power. Right,

you know that the head of a tree is the

one with the power. And so if you understand that

the dynamics, that the Hebrew word that's hidden between these

New Testament terminology, then you can understand what the language means.

Because obviously they were using a sort of analogy of

like a river, like the father flows out into the

son is like a distributary of the Father's essence. So

the father essence flows into the sun into the spirit

as in the same sense, they don't break off into

say that he becomes you know, a new river or that,

because that would again sound like they're a new god.

There are other gods, but no, he continues to flow

out from them, and he's not. You can't separate him

from the essence of the Father, because he's being flows

directly from him. The sort of language that the Nicie

and Christians wanted to use was saying that the Father

has no origin. He is the one without origin, but

the son originates from the Father. The spirit originates from

the Father, and.

There's a sort of of that.

They move outward from the Father, but the Father doesn't

move out from work from anyone else. So they would

use the main river. So there's like the source, the

source of the river source, and then there's the distributaries.

Right, gotcha, yep, Which is all very complicated way to

say that. Well, that's saying the same thing that I

said before. There's only one throne and he who said it,

and the one that sets upon it, that's the Father.

You have to call it. That's something, and we just

call it father. You have to call it something. You

have to call whatever's on that throne, and you have

to call whatever is in this dimension on earth. You

have to call it something. And if the one on

the throne is the Father, you have to call the

one down here son, you have.

To yeah, And there's also just have to call it something.

There's also just the sense it's very ancient.

It's not. It wasn't just coming from the time of Jesus.

It was going very far back in time.

Like we have this passage that implies that the that

the Yahweh is the son of the most high of

el el Yon.

And it's just.

Because at the time they didn't believe that children were

half the father and half the mother. That's why we

see this language of.

Seed right, right, the seed came from because because back

then they believed that the woman was kind.

Of like the ground that does that's exactly what and

so it is seed into so in a sense that

babies come from men.

Babies come from men and they grow into either a

boy or a girl.

Yeah, and so the thought so they thought women were

just the incubator of sa Yet you're right, they were

the field right, So in if you're understanding in that language,

then you can see why they would have been okay

with this language of the son coming from the father

because they're not saying that he like he needs a mother,

he just was coming. He's coming from the Father's being,

his essence. If you're thinking of that language, I am,

in a sense in the same essence as my father,

come from his being. So that's probably why they started

using that language, even though now it's kind of like

not the best analogy.

So you know, this is a very good point. We

need to break off before we get off here, because

we'ret's stop. They are right, right, So why don't we

call God the Holy Spirit God the Spirit? But we do, sure,

I don't. I mean we do in the nice and Creed.

But yeah, God the Holy Spirit, So the Holy Spirit.

So there's God, the Son, got the Father, God the

Holy Spirit. Oh yeah, And I'll just throw that one word.

It's it's a.

Short that says in Corinthians that the Spirit is the

Lord second Corinthians three eighteen. It says, for this comes

from the Lord, who is the Spirit. So the Spirit

is also Ward, he's also divine. We don't see it

as explicit as with the other passages, but we can

see right in the hear that, you know, there's the

same idea.

M hm, all right, so you're good, Yeah, I'm done,

you're of course all right. Well, any questions, any comments,

of course we can talk about anything. So anything anybody

wants to talk about, now is the time to do it,

all right, going once, going twice, yes, Matthew, Yes, Kenth.

So as you were talking, I kept getting the scripture.

I believe it's Romans eleven thirty six or it says

by him and through Him and.

To him ms.

That fit in.

But the theme of the trinity there and if it does,

how so yeah.

We we have many passages that say that God created

the universe through through Jesus, Like the Jesus is kind

of like the medium through who he did, through whom

he did the soap. But we can see it simply

if he is the word of God. Then in Genesis one,

when he when he says, let there be light, in

Jesus sense yes, And so like Jesus is the voice, right,

So we.

Have other passages that say that the.

Heavens and the earth of the work of his hands,

his hands, Jesus would be the hands, right, so he

would be the one who's kind of like anthropomorphically shaping

universe while this Father is just speaking, he's declaring, and

the Son is doing.

And to extinuate that, we have to realize that Judah

and Hebrew is hand. So this is why Jesus come

from the tribe of Judah. You're supposed to realize that,

and Jews know that. That's why Jews take such high offense,

because they know that the Messiah must come through Judah,

because that is God's hands. And this very principle takes

you back. That's why this language is used. That what

Jesus Christ did was correct what Adam corrupted. He's fixing that.

We're going back to that, going back to that place.

Of course, this is another can of worms that most

people don't realize that is incorporated into description. And there's

a nice, fancy Greek terminology for that. It's called restoration.

If you don't believe in restorationist schatology, it's because you're

a rejectionist. You reject God's word, and that has consequences.

It will inevitably make you a preterist, for one. So

thanks for bringing that out. So where do you figure

in this first? And you know, let's just do this

Roman's eleven thirty six. For of him and through him

and to him are all things to whom be gloried

forever all men. Where's God, the Holy spirit in there,

he said, not know any of it, before he was replied,

take no, kenneth. It says four two and are listen

really carefully, four of him and through him and to him,

or all things you have four through and two, four

through and two.

Yeah, it would probably be the two some thirty three.

Verse six says by the word of the Lord, the

heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth

all their hosts, all their hosts. So breath here being

ruoc yeah, spirit.

Greek.

Right, it's so hard to actually literally translate that into

Hebrew because if he were to say spirit, that would

mean by the spirit of his mouth. Because oh, English

sucks in that regard because English is garbage. Yeah, because

like in he both Hebrew and Greek the same word

for wind, breath and spirit, so the same same thing.

But yeah, so it's by the breath.

I think that while the sun is the one who's shaping,

the spirit is the one who's invigorating it, is giving

it life. There's this sense of like like if the

spirit were to be taken away, then they would die.

That everything kind of like a navel. I think, like

how the navel attached to the earth allows the navel

attached to the embryo gives life to the embryo. In

the same sense, it's the Holy Spirit is doing that

to the world.

Now, that's a good way to put it. Yeah, the

Holy Spirit is the umbilical cord. That's a good way

to put it. That's a really good way to put it,

outside of the simple fact that the umbilical cord goes

to and I don't want to don't want to cross

that threshold, but I got to a female. But that

would be the perfect you know, perfect and give God

his chosen pronouns.

Hey, I'm not I'm not barking up that, but yeah,

it's the idea that you know, the mother doesn't need

the embryo, right, but the embryo absolutely needs the mother.

So so if you understand the the umbilical court of

the nables being an extension of the mother to the child,

then we can in the same sense say that you know,

the Father doesn't need the universe, but the universe needs

his spirit needs to be very sustained to be alive.

And you get that language and all over the New

Testament that you know you cannot be alive without him,

without him, his death, So you haven't worked in there

to the equation all right, so nobody has anything else.

I guess you can praise out of her ar okay.

Yahweh. Jesus Christ, please guide us into what you want

us to do in the next generation, in this new

era of time, a time of great darkness where the

churches who have turned their back on you, Lord, whatever

you want us to do to bring them back, Lord,

Please help us to know what to do, what to say.

Please encourage people here if they were ever struggling with

this sort of idea, let it encourage them today to

know who you are and what faith and trust in

you means. And thank you for everything that you that

you are and everything you've done for us in your

name on them.

Amen and Amen until next time, lady and gentlemen, God bless,

God speed

In