Interview Series: Pastor Ben Pent on Anger, Transparency, and God's Transformation

CBC Interview Series _ Ben Pent

00:00:06 Speaker: All right. I think we're all situated here. So I'm here with Pastor Ben Pent. We are in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Ben, if you could just kind of give everyone a little introduction in case they don't know who you are, just like who you are, and then just how you came to faith in Christ, in Jesus. Well, my parents were missionaries in the Amazon river of Peru. I was born about 3000 miles up the Amazon River, and I was the youngest of six, and all but one were born on the mission field way in the jungle area. So we had no hospital, we had no doctors. My mother was a nurse. My dad was certainly not a doctor, but he did a lot of doctoring things that you learn to do in the jungles. So when, um, when we were born, my dad was the doctor that birthed us, helped the birth. And, um, we were, um, we were born in an Indian village, thatched roof, wood and mud floors. I still have pictures of that. Now you say we. Is that a we? Because I'm an identical twin. My twin brother Joe. My name is Ben Benjamin. And what's your middle name, by the way? I don't know. Arnold. A a okay, c Benjamin Arnold. My twin brother Joe was born first, and, um, 15 minutes later, uh, I came the natives way in. Those Indian tribes used to kill the twins because they thought one of them was the devil. And they didn't know which one was the devil and which one was going to have horns and a tail or, you know, so they would throw both of them. Either they buried them alive or threw them in the Amazon River. Basically, they would do that. No kidding. The piranhas and the, you know, the crocodiles and diocese itself would would of course, eat them up fast. So when we came into the world, they sort of at that time respected the the missionary. So they were wondering which one of us would be the devil. And I usually blame it on my brother, who probably had the horns in the tail. But he says he says the same thing about me. So anyway, we lived there for a few years, came on furlough for a year or two, and then went back a little bit further down the river to a village called Iquitos. Iquitos. Not Quito like in Quito, Ecuador, but Iquitos, Peru. And um, so we were there until we were 13 years old and came to the States. But it was during that time that, uh, we, uh, heard a gospel message on the importance of being saved and coming to know the Lord and the pastor. The. The native pastor that that now spoke because he had been trained now in the gospel. He asked us to if we wanted to be saved, to raise our hand. And of course, we were supposed to keep our eyes closed. And my twin brother Joe raised his hand, indicated he wanted to be saved. He wanted to come to know the Lord, and he looked over at me and he saw that I didn't raise my hand. And so he, uh, he wanted to make sure that I would raise my hand. So he just grabbed my hand and we both raised it up. And that's when we went forward and, uh, we uttered a prayer. But somehow his conversion was real. Mine was simply emotional at the time. Who would who would want to go to hell if he could go to heaven? But there was an emotional response to the gospel, but not a serious response from my spirit. And so was it. More like I never heard the expression before, like like fire insurance kind of. Yeah, I think it was because, um, I had heard a message on hell. And so, uh, it was more an emotional response to the gospel. Uh, and the reason why I, um, I, I believe it was that is because my life never changed until I was in my teens. And by that time we had at 13, we had come to the States. My parents realized that we had very little education because there were no schools in the jungle areas. We had very limited, uh, school. Sure. And it was, uh. So anyway, we came to the States and I went to a school in Columbia, South Carolina, and then nine months later we went to a private Christian school at Asheville, Asheville, North Carolina, called Ben Lippen. Okay. Ben Lippen school. So that's where my twin brother and I went from our eighth grade to our senior year, graduated from there, then went off to Moody Bible Institute and got a foundation on Bible and prophecy. We would stay up at nights, many times with some of the kids that had different understanding of theological things. Getting back, stepping back when I was 16 and 17, in Asheville, North Carolina, is when I really understood that I was a sinner and that I was going to go to hell. I, in fact, for months and months I would wake up in the middle of the night and be petrified because I thought I had committed. What I had heard in Scripture was called the unpardonable sin. And somehow, because I had not truly accepted Christ in a personal way in my life, proved it, that it didn't really validate what I had claimed. I had thought that maybe I'd committed the unpardonable sin. And it was. It was during that time that I began to call on the name of the Lord. But it was as if the heavens were closed and said, I'm sorry, it's too late. It's too late. And that's when God showed me that, um, my depravity and my doom was based on not repenting, truly repenting. And by faith, I remember that I do. Finally, I got desperate before the Lord and made that commitment of salvation. From that point on, there was never a doubt of I was born again or not. Of course, I became zealous to serve the Lord, and during the last two years of our high school, we would hold services out in the street corners and get. I would get a bunch of kids that were interested in leading people to the Lord and preaching, and we would, uh, one guy played the the horn and the other guys, uh, helped give, give out tracks. We had a little stand and my twin brother Joe would preach for about ten minutes, and then he would give it to me, and then I would preach, and I saw my first soul come to know Christ, which was the start of what God wanted maybe me to do in the future. And Joe later, as we went to Moody Bible Institute and then Trinity College and got a degree in Bible and theology. My twin brother became a missionary in Costa Rica, and I eventually became a youth pastor. And then two days, two years later, I was given a small church to pastor. And that's kind of what got you started. Lifetime. And you're. And you're how old now? How old? How old are you? Uh, 90 years old as of April 24th. This past April. That's incredible. And so your your years in ministry. I know you've told me before, but how many do you think that is? Well, uh, I was, uh, 40 years, almost 40 years in the pastorate itself and then. But I consider, uh, in our retirement years, we were we've been interim pastor 3 or 4 different churches, so full time, 40 years. But you really haven't stopped. Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah. Is this it for you that those that don't know. Ben, we're up in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan in Ackerman. And Ben is our visitation pastor and prayer pastor, where he goes and visits folks and prays with folks. And he's a huge blessing to to our body here. And just like with with the younger kids, with the young couples as well as folks, you know, in retirement years, he's got this gift to connect with them in this really incredible way. So. So, Ben, when you think of the word stronghold, what does that bring to your mind? And then in your years of ministry pouring into people, are there certain strongholds that have a tendency to come up over and over again? Yes. In fact, probably, um, this is an issue that not only I have faced in my life, but all of us as Christians. I think we think that maybe people in the ministry are immune. Yeah, exactly. Free from any until they talk to our wives. That's right. Yeah. Then they'll they'll let let you know. But. Yes. And strongholds are issues that all of us face because of our background, the way we were brought up, the environment, the people we have dealt with in our lives. And, uh. Uh, one of one of the things that I, I've had to deal with in my own personal life is, is a strong disposition. Well, it's anger. And when I was younger, we just, uh, partly my father was a very strong disciplinarian. So when I got punished, I often got punished with my dad would be very angry because he was frustrated with six children, and sometimes we'd get the end of a switch. So a lot of times he would he would discipline and anger then, or he would discipline me in anger? Yes. And so, probably because of his nature, he has a father that was a strong willed person, too. And so it's sometimes a generational, a generational curse, a curse to the next generation. And it was during those years in high school that I had to come to a, um, to a head because, um, I got kicked out of my school. Really? Yeah. Because I, um, uh, I straightened out a teacher who I thought hated my guts. And I would tell him, I hate your guts, too. So. Oh, my. Yeah. So, uh, we got in a heated discussion, and the faculty said that, we can't have you in school. And so I was just like 15 years old and my parents were on the mission field. So I was a missionary kid. And so they didn't know where to kick me out. So they what did they do? They wrote my parents and my parents said, well, we're in the mission field. What can we do? We just don't have the means. But to drive up here, I mean, to fly up here or so. So anyway, to make a long story short, the the faculty member that, uh, he was more of a he wasn't really the faculty member. He was the, uh, he and his wife were, um, kind of retired missionaries from Africa. And they were kind of the, the, uh, parents of, uh, like dorm parents or parents. Yeah. But he didn't understand young people, and he was more of an irritant to us as young people because in one sense he was a disciplinarian and demanded certain things to take place. And we challenged that quite a bit as teens. And so my twin brother and I, we were both I can't go into detail on why, but they decided to kick us out and they didn't know where to kick us out. So they put us in an apartment that the faculty, one of the faculties, were they an empty faculty dorm or apartment? And so we had a great time for the next two weeks, because my twin brother and I were first string soccer players. And the young people there not not just my team, but a lot of people wanted us back because they needed the two, the two wings of the soccer team because we were the key goal. Players made the goals and of course be brought up in South America. We played soccer with our bare feet. Even so. Anyway, to make a long story short, God began to work in our lives. The faculty member had gone and gone back to Africa for a week or two, and the faculty members asked us to confess and to apologize to the faculty and the students, and they would accept us back. So we did that. And when he got back and realized that we had been accepted back, it was not a pleasant thing. Anyway. Maybe someday I could take that part of my life apart. And it might encourage some of you who, like myself, have dealt with anger and dispositional traits that that, uh, you have to deal with in your life. So anyway, so, so strong. So how would how would you like for, for the average person or like a new believer? That's kind of a weird word. Um, you know, biblically it means like a fortification or like this, this area where the evil one, you know, gets at our thoughts and how we create our thoughts and our thinking. But how would you define it for, like, the average, average Joe? Well, um, first of all, from a biblical point of view and how I had to come to, um, to the point of, uh, accepting, uh, of accepting my, uh, my past. There is a scripture in Galatians 517, the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh. And these are contrary one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. In other words, were made up of spirit, soul, and body. And, um, in, in the spirit you become a Christian because the Holy Spirit comes to indwell that God forsaken place that was once in the Garden of Eden. God like. So Adam and Eve walked the garden and with with God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve every day until Satan came in and tempted. So instead of the Lord being there now, he was replaced by Satan. So were were sinners by nature. Because of Adam all have sinned, and so in Christ all are made alive. So we have, however, we have a soul that is an intellect, an emotion and a will. And then we have a body. Basically, we give vent to the to the Spirit's control, which is Satan, and then it affects our outward. So there's what we accept Except Christ, where we say, he came into my heart, we accepted our heart. We're actually saying, in effect, we invited him to be the Lord, the Savior of our lives. He comes into our spirit. And so Galatians 17 is saying that there is a struggle now because it used to be I gave fed to Satan and did what he wanted me to do. And now that Christ is on the throne, Satan is on the outside affecting my soul and saying he has, God said it. We have a tendency to make excuses for our behavior and we become in. We become defensive. And while we become defensive as born again Christians were grieving the Holy Spirit because we're listening to my human spirit that still has that tendency. The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary. So I had to come to the place that I had to be honest with myself. And that takes time, especially when you first come to know Christ. There's no easy solution sometimes, but there's a biblical solution. And the biblical solution is that God has a way of working in our lives to will and to do of his good pleasure. So the first thing that I think is to make sure be saved as soon as you come to know the Lord, there's going to be a battle. And that's where Satan is going to try to make us excuse and we become ineffective Christians. It's where the world sees us and says he claims to be a Christian and look how he behaves. Look what he does. Look where he goes. And so I began, and I think one has to be to accept themselves as they are, which is the hardest thing, because we we defend our sacred self, which is corrupted in so many ways. Um, and I, you know, it's just it's just like as we become aware of our sinfulness, the next step is to become transparent. In other words, to admit that this is an issue that I don't seem to have power over. And that's, I think, the next step in our growth process. The first is to be aware of it, the second to be transparent and say, I have a need and I need to have an answer to that need. And then I find out that the Scripture does have the answers to my need. And so that that transparency takes really time, time, time and radical honesty. Exactly. Yes. Because even when we think of the importance of transparency, there is that time between realizing that there's a need and transparency is saying, in effect, I'm a slave to that habit. I'm a slave to that, that control of my life, whether it be pornography, whether it be anger, whether it be, uh, pride, whether it be perfectionism, whether it be, uh, you know, jealousy or, who knows, each of us, with our background and our dispositional traits, we have inherited a whole pile of garbage that I cannot do it on my own. So transparency moves into then a, you know, thinking about the importance of, of of being trans transformed. And that's where the process of becoming more like Christ instead of more like my past. And that's where discipleship is so very important, because you begin to realize that others also have issues. So if I can, that's why AA is so good with alcoholics that finally admit I am an alcoholic. And that's one of the first things that they'll do in AA is I am an alcoholic because before that I could hold my liquor, I could hold this, you know, and we make excuses and tried to defend our ego, and that's part of our framework of our past. I'm not as bad as you are. So you. So I can make excuses. Well, and really, it takes that that really honesty and humility which, which in our, you know, in our fallen mind like we think if I'm, if I admit I'm wrong, somehow I'm weaker. And that's where the evil one gets at us. Right? That, you know, if I show my weakness or if I know that, that I'm, I'm lesser or whatever. And the reality is, and maybe you've seen this as well, is that when when someone starts confessing their sin or sharing and being transparent, then what? What happens with others a lot of times is what like as as you show your transparency, have you noticed as well that others will like the walls? Their pride kind of comes down quickly and they start sharing. Well, if Ben, who's been a pastor for all these years, struggles with anger and even now, you know, or or irritation or whatever it is, you know, impatient, whatever it is like, even at this age now, you still struggle with it. Then it kind of opens the door for us to say, this is this is kind of part of our process of we, me, you and I, becoming more and more like Christ, right? Yes. Is that. Yeah. And and and it's, it's it's not that God has a spiritual surgery where he opens up our, our lives and digs out all the crap at one time, at one time. So no. And that's why I said the word, the word is to be changed. Or the word transformation is the word. The Greek word from which we get the word metamorphosis. And metamorphosis is that process that God uses to turn, shall we say, to turn a crazy, stupid caterpillar into a beautiful butterfly? The process is when the, uh. Uh, when, when the to become a chrysalis and it becomes a chrysalis by dying to himself. But in the death, he extracts from itself a substance that becomes the entombment of what the world says. You're crazy, you're dying, you can't do anything. But inside of that is a transformation that in a few days you begin to see out of this chrysalis, out of this cocoon a beautiful butterfly. And like my Greek teacher used to say, the Bible says, do this and live. The law demands, but give me neither feet nor hands. A better word the gospel brings. It bids me fly and gives me wings. So what did the caterpillar do? It had to release from itself. It had to give up. What happens in metamorphosis in Christ is that that struggle between the flesh and the world and the devil. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life are not. The world is not of the father, but is of the world. The world passes away, and the lust thereof. But he that doeth the will of God abideth forever. But then I still have that innate desire to do it my way. And it doesn't mean that you don't have a temper. It simply means, like in my case, God uses the dispositional desire to do evil. The dish, the dish, the the, the desire, the strong desire to do what is right. In other words, before that same issue of wanting to do wrong, to defend myself, now I want to do right, to defend my Savior and to honor him. And so Christiana Christiana, an issue of authenticating what Jesus said, you are the light of the world. Now don't hide it under a bushel. It's now live out the quality of life that Christ showed in his life, in his death and his burial and his resurrection. And he does it through what is called the fruit of the spirit. So instead of the fruit of anger, the fruit of love instead of sorrow and downing everything, its joy, its peace, its long suffering, its gentleness, its it's patience, which is you're going to fall so many times and continue to admit, but an alcoholic always has to go back to that. I am an alcoholic. I am an alcoholic. But I trust in a higher power. Of course, we have the power of God's Holy Spirit within us. So it's it's a process. And that's what Scripture calls sanctification. And, uh, and sanctification. Salvation is the initial transforming into his life giving salvation a changed life. But sanctification is a continual changing of that life from self to the Savior, from Ben's lordship to Christ's lordship. And discipleship then becomes a joyous sharing of what God is doing in my life. And if you sharing what God is doing in your life and I'm being encouraged by your victories because essentially kind of back to your analogy, right? Because you're you're shedding the old way. I'm shedding the old way and you're both shedding it together. So as you're shedding, you see the growth, you see the transformation. And it's it's not, you know, this quick instant. Right? Right. Because that's kind of like how we're, we're, you know, our world is just so fast and everything is. And the reality is the, the sanctification that this change, this metamorphosis, it doesn't happen overnight. It it happens over time. It's not a microwave. Right. So and and so so like, say, um, you know, practically speaking, have you found that memorizing scripture, maybe someone doesn't, you know, they don't do well at memorizing. What else would you recommend to them? Well, of course, Scripture is taking at a time like a baby. You don't give them hamburger meat. You give them milk. And the milk of the word is taking maybe a simple scripture and going over that as a group individually. First of all, like as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. John 112. For God so loved the world. 316. Uh, you know, uh, it's it's taking some simple verses of Scripture and challenging each other this week. Here's a verse and have it written out and put it on the on the mirror as you wake up in the morning and shave or comb your hair. There's the verse of Scripture. You know, neither is there salvation in any other, you know. But as many as received him to them gave he power to some, some God. If by grace are you saved through faith, and that the first ones are the simple things that changed your life so that you would be encouraged by it. And as you go along, you become more hungry for more meat. And so you go from the from the milk of the word, and you're beginning to eat the meat of the word. And that's where growing in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. G r o w go to go to the Word of God and study the Scripture. The r is is well. Go to God in prayer. Uh, go to the Word of God. Read the Word of God. Obey the Word of God. Walk the walk. The word. The word. You know, so it it's it's not an overnight thing. And that's why we need each other. That's why, uh, Hebrews, uh, what is it, ten five where it says, uh, well, maybe it's for 20. Oh, goodness. We'll look it up later. Yeah. So, So where it says neglect, you know, the assembling of yourselves. Yeah. So much the more as you see the day approaching. But it says also it says as you meet together, encouraging one another. And so it's it's a matter of encouraging. It's a matter of challenging. It's a matter of eating and applying like you have preached before in Psalm one one chapter where it's but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law he meditates day and night. You know, that's like the cow that he's chewing his cud, right? Yep. Exactly. Rumination. It's called. And they they eat the hay, and then you see them lying down, resting under a tree and still munching on something. They're agitating that the hay, and now they're putting it in their usable stomach. Rumination. So you're so you're constantly you're constantly bringing up Scripture and truth or even it could just be a truth that Scripture teaches. It's not necessarily memorizing. You know, if you struggle with memorization, it could just be that you you are bringing up this truth. You know, it's according to grace that we've been saved, just kind of bringing that truth up and chewing on that and, and really letting that take hold of, of other areas of our lives. And it's amazing to Josh that during the night and even even now, and you have to be careful as you get older, that you don't put your mind in neutral, because Satan is still subtle. And there'll be times at night in my sleep when Satan will bring some evil thought, and immediately I could feel. Sometimes it might semi-consciousness I'm pleading the blood of Christ over that evil thought and bringing up a scripture like, I'll wake up and say, man, how did I dream that? That is absolutely vile. And I'll say, Holy Spirit, your word says that if you know the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses me from all sin and cover me by your blood. And immediately I could put it out, because when Satan came and said to Jesus, you know, do this and you could turn this stone into bread, he went back to Scripture. You could you could feed your body. You could feed your soul by by, uh, worshiping me. And it says, God says he is the only one to be worshiped. Jump then, down from the from the pinnacle of the temple, and the world will know you're the greatest. That's the world, the flesh. You know, the devil tried to get us to worship. The Scripture is the answer. It's the food that we need daily in our walk with the Lord. Yeah, probably a lot more things there is. Let me. I'm just going to throw a couple more, if you don't mind. Okay. No. Are you good? Okay. Um, so I would just, I would I jotted some things down, and I just kind of want to get your, your initial thoughts on, on a couple of them, um, and maybe direct. Not necessarily, you know, kind of just direct, like, like you were saying before, you don't necessarily have to memorize, but maybe kind of help us shoot in a right direction of what God says about different things. Um, here's one. Trials in my life mean God is mad at me and wants to punish me so that that way of thinking, how would you what what direction would you send somebody and that was struggling with that. Yeah. Out which which has happened in my own life. Because as I said before, you're not going to get rid of your temper overnight. So I was challenged earlier as a teenager by someone that said, in fact, one of my mentors that I looked up to that loved teenagers and he was not that loved me. And I could tell he didn't say it, but I could tell he did. And I wondered, model myself after him. But I remember one of the things, I believe it was him that said it. The thing that you attempted the most to be part of. Be careful that you don't just accumulate it and dump it on God at the end of the day. In other words, the points. You have a temper. Get up in the morning and say, Lord Jesus, thank you so very much for a good night's sleep. I have a temper. I will probably disappoint you, but I give you the right, right, right. I give her the right to remind me that there's victory over that. And every time you blow it, just say, see, God, I told you so. And, God, you know this is true. I began to pray every time I was embarrassed sometimes. I mean, you do it another enough times and you see a God with a big hammer ready to clue club you. But he's the one that said casting all your care upon me. For I care for you. And then I began to realize how much I really disappointed God. And it was that that I kept saying, Lord, there it is. I did it again. And I began to understand what really grace was God's riches at Christ's expense. He loves me Anyway, and he'll use that anger disposition for his serve him. Well, that's really good. Yeah. All right. Let me just do two more real quick. And by the way, it doesn't stop when you're 90. It just shows itself in small, irritating ways, and you begin to say, Lord, I'm sorry for my attitude, but nobody saw me. But Jesus is saying, I see you. And that's the refining process that allows me to be more open to what God can do through an absolute, you know, like Paul said, I'm the chief of sinners because I realize that I deserve nothing, but God gave me everything, so it doesn't stop, you know, you still stops. You still think evil, you still have dirty thoughts. You still say the wrong thing. You still get angry at your kids once in a while. You'll still never at my grandkids. Somebody else's grandkids. Somebody else's grandkids. But it's it's it's that process. Don't get discouraged. Just get up and dust yourself. Do that daily battle and the battle is not over until you see Jesus face to face and always trying to run well to the end and say, well, God, I'm here by your grace. That's all. That's all. Here's another one. Okay? Everyone is. Everyone is out for me or out to hurt me. So I can't trust anyone. Yeah. See, that's a little bit of self defensiveness. It's it's it's because I was hurt as a child or I was neglected at one point or another. I was the last of the kids, or I was the middle kid and everybody hounded me. Or I had a teacher that told me. In fact, I did. I had a teacher, and it was that one that I was in trouble. You got in the face of that when I finally had to confess to him that I'm sorry, even though inside it's going to be a long time before I could forgive. But he had a problem with his disposition to his traits. And he looked at me and he said, Ben, you will never amount to anything in your life. You will never get into college. You'll never get into the ministry. So forget it. You won't last anything. That was crushing. A Christian missionary retired that told me that. And don't think for one minute that wasn't Satan's goad. Absolutely. And the fact that you can and you can remember so vividly. It's like it was yesterday. I know exactly where he was. I saw the the That he was bald head as could be and red as a beet. When he found out and came back and realized that we were back in school. He was livid. So you guys stayed in his apartment? Well, he had the there were two apartments that had ten rooms for students, and so he was in the apartment above our two rooms. My brother. So he left. So he was a missionary that was gone. And then he came back and found out that you guys were coming back, and the whole faculty members changed. Wow. And so I had to my twin brother and I had to confess before him we were sorry, but he just, um. So that's. But but that hurt was real. It was as real as could be, and still it hurt. I mean, probably to think about it. It's hurtful. So. So the hurt is not gonna ever go away. No. The scar is there. Yeah. And so the scar is a reminder. My brother and I, we've laughed ever since because we've looked at the scar and said, and look, we graduated from high school, Bible school and college. Ha ha ha! But at the same time, I have that little, little demon standing on my ear saying, but you're no good anyway, because all you could serve as small churches and when people leave, they blame it on you because you do this or that or the other. So Satan brings that you're no good, so he brings it up. Absolutely. But then what I think is amazing to watch in the last just a couple of years that I've known you, is that how God has used that? I didn't know the specifics behind that because that's the first time I've heard about it. I knew there was hurt there, but I didn't realize what was said. But that makes you so much more empathetic and and relatable to guys who are struggling, who have heard that themselves. You know, you're never going to amount to anything. You're worthless. You're, you know, all this crap that feeds the lie of inadequacy, you know, like that you're not capable of anything. And that's why every Sunday I reach out to children, I reach out to young people. I reach out to. You know how hurtful those words were. I see people that that are sitting by themselves. I go over there and give them a hug and say, I love you because I don't want them to feel what you felt pain that I went through. Well, and it kind of it kind of speaks to what you were saying earlier about our words. Like how, um, how our words are so, you know, in a cutting word like that. Yep. That was probably said in anger and whatever else. And the guy may not have ever remember what he said it but to. But you heard it and it was just it cut to your heart and. Yeah. And I think it's interesting, too, that you also pointed out that that was the evil one back then. I think of The Screwtape Letters when, you know, Lewis was talking about, you know, like using those those the evil one wants to knock you out. You and your brother both. Exactly. Before you would go on. But then he didn't stop, though, either, because when when you thought, you know. Well, I'm, I'm not pastoring a massive, you know, mega church or whatever. Somehow I'm lesser. Yeah. But I think what's interesting and I and we heard it a couple of weeks ago when we celebrated your birthday, is all these different people, even though you're not in full time active ministry now, all these different people talking about you, your ministry, maybe it's something you've said, something you've done and how God is saying, yeah, Ben, look, look, look at my fingerprints that I had you place on all these different people. And God used you in all these different ways. But it's interesting, too, that you just said that you're still you still have to battle. That hurt. And I to me, that would be encouraging if someone said that. And my pastor, if there's hurt like that in my past, that even you struggle with that still to this day. But then you bring back and you remind, you remind yourself and the evil one that no, I'm. I'm loved by God. I'm cared by God. And and he has not failed me once. Right, right. Yep. And that's another thing. Why discipleship and transparency in discipleship is so important because we're all flawed. We're all flawed. And as soon as we understand that, I don't have to worry about you knowing that you're flawed too. But I'm flawed, too. But I want to tell you how God has unflawed us. Right. Right. You know, and, um. Like my brother, my twin brother and I. One week, one week before he died, which is exactly two years ago this month, he said, Ben, you were my best friend because we could bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. And I said the same thing to him. You're my best friend. But we were like that. And, you know, we shared the same the same trials. That's what discipleship is. Yeah. And and his area is did he struggle with anger as well, or is there other areas. Yeah, he he had his own. He was a little bit different in personality just a tiny bit. Although we we thought like the same we'd get you were similar in how you thought but it was just it showed itself differently in a different way. Is his wife similar to Jenny? No, a lot different. A lot different, yeah. Um, is his wife still alive or. Yes, she's in the home and she has dementia now. Oh, that's right, that's right. You told me about that. Yeah. But, um. Yeah. Different. Yeah, different in some ways. But, uh, Joe was more, uh, he, uh, he was more. He could go and say, told me to do this at a young age. And this is what he did. There was one door and that was always open. I had three doors, always there. So. So he was just he was very much honed in to like, this is he knew the direction, he knew the direction. And so God worked in that because his personality was different. Mine was uh, I had three doors. I don't know which one. Lord, which one do you want me to take? And I keep going and said, well, I like door one, but I sure like door three. Go down there. And finally I said, nah, rats. I'm going to try door two and take one step. The lights opened. That's interesting. So it's wow us now. So? So you guys are identical. So, like identical. We we we would send we would send my mother the same card that we'd be five miles, 500 miles away between us. No kidding. Really? Wow. Or I would, um, I would have, uh, he roomed next to my room in college, and we'd have to kind of dress up at Moody during that those times. And he had had the same shirt that I had on that morning. No kidding. Or one day he came in and said, Ben, I had this crazy dream. I said, what did you dream of? He dreamt very similar to what I dreamt and that. Interesting. We were went to a college and we had the ability to purchase nine if we if we wanted to go to this college, which was where we could sort of buy into into the credits if we passed, like in languages. And so we both took Spanish. Of course, we were brought up in Spanish so we could talk Spanish. So I wanted to get my language done so we could go in there and right, right to the course. And we bought our way into the 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 units of Spanish because we we got up, we were able to fill out that anyway, we were we were in a Spanish class one one time. We had a Spanish class and we'd take tests. We'd we were sitting by each other. I'd sit here and he would sit there. And finally the teacher had us both come up after after they there was said, you know, I would appreciate if you guys would maybe one of you sit in the back and one of you sit in the front because you got exactly the same thing wrong. There's something wrong here. So my twin brother went back there and I stayed in the front. The next test was exactly the same because we always we always worked together. We always quizzed each other. That's the way we did it, everything we did together. And so finally he said, you know, I could have been wrong. You can go back and sit by each other again. Well, dear. So anyway. Wow. Well, Ben, I very much appreciate you taking the time, uh, to, to to spend time with us and to pour into our body, to pour into our, um, uh, just the way. The way you love other people is, is incredible. And so we'll end here and then come back as well. Okay. I would love to do that.