S3 E7: Confessions of the Chronically Tired. Let’s Talk About Burnout.

What's up, everybody? It's Becky Enzer here. We are back for

another episode and we have two people that we want to welcome

back. Tony was here a couple of episodes ago.

I'm so fired up that I got another invite.

Erick. We have not seen him since last season. Welcome back.

Been too long. I love. I love the setup.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Was our number one gang.

Yeah, yeah, he was. He was. We just kept on scheduling wise, you

know, it was just a lot. But anyways, we're back and we are here

to talk about something super important. But before that, I wanted

to share a quick story. I don't know why I'm sharing it, but

it's. We'll. We'll check. When I was little, right, I grew up in

this really small town called Silver Springs, Texas. And super

small or surrounded by a lot of people that, you know, my own

culture, Mexican American culture was all I really knew. And

we went to this Asian buffet place in Silver Springs called Broadway

Buffet Fire. It's still open. It's really great.

I love Asian buffets.

It was great. And I saw this like little dish that had like a

bunch of green stuff in it and my brain was like, oh, I'm Mexican.

This is Mexican. Ish. Like, this has to be guacamole. This is

the only possible thing this could ever be. And so I got a plate.

I was little. I don't know how old. I'm not little enough for this

to not have like flagged something in my brain. And I had

like a big old dish of. Of wok is. I thought. And I got like a chip.

And I don't even think it was a tortilla chip. It was just some

type of. Probably like a wonton chip or something. And I like

grabbed it, try to literally like chips and walk it. And I almost

died that day. I almost met my maker that day. I literally spit

it out, made a big scene and ran to the bathroom and stuck my

tongue under the cold water faucet for a long time.

For those of us that have no clue what green substance you're

talking about, you want to let us know what not to.

It was wasabi. I don't recommend it. Especially not in heaping

portion sizes on a wonton chip. I do not recommend it. That

has zero relevance to the topic today. But I just wanted to

share it because I thought it was.

It doesn't lead to burnout. It leads to burning of your. The burning

up.

Anyway, so, yeah, if you didn't catch that we are talking

about burnout today and we wanted to talk about it with you

guys having. I haven't necessarily experienced burnout,

but I've gotten to, like, the edge, you know, like right at the

edge or I'm like, looking over and then I get to backtrack. But

have you guys experienced it?

Yeah.

How would you define burnout? I think it's important because I

think that's very. It could be varied definitions of it.

Ooh. Defining burnout. Um, I think. I think more about what it

feels like. It's like, as much as I want to rest, whether that's

physically, mentally, spiritually, there is not enough

ketchup. That gets me to a place where I'm like, oh, I'm operating

once again from a place of overflow. I'll do a Lord of the Rings

reference, which is great resurrection. Bilbo is talking to

Gandalf and he's like, I just feel like butter spread over too

much bread. Where it's like, oh, I'm spread so thin that I can't

possibly catch up. But there's something in me that is driving to

continue to work and to achieve. That was my experience.

To come back to that place of like, well, I have. I just have to

get these things done. Like, there's an expectation on me, and

if I don't achieve it, regardless of how I feel, well, then

I'm failing. So I just have to keep going and going and going.

Yeah. Very similarly. Like, I love that analogy of like butter

spread through too thin on a piece of toast. But for me it's like,

then put that same piece of toast, then put it in a toaster and

it stays in there. Like, that's how I felt where it was. Like,

it is a feeling. But the reason I knew I was burnt out was

because of the crash. Like, it was just. Life was in shambles for

me. Family wise, work wise, just mentally, spiritually just felt

drained.

And so dryness seems to be something that I'm hearing you guys

say. Right. And unfruitfulness. Is that like. Like

a lack of good fruit being produced? Would you guys.

I mean, it feels like there would be, like, fruit, but maybe

not life giving fruit.

Yeah.

Like, I'm still operating at capacity or maybe way beyond capacity,

I guess is the point. But there's still. I'm still producing,

but it's not. It's not in any way like that. I feel like would

be God honoring or respecting. Yeah. Life giving. Respecting of

my limitations.

Because that's. I think fruit and production are potentially two

different things.

Yeah, that's true.

Because I'm. When I mention fruit and trying to use biblical

language and. So you're producing a fruit. Why would you.

So.

Yeah, anyway, just kidding. Keep going, keep going.

Because we are a gospel centered podcast. That's why I did

that. Yeah. So a lack of spiritual fruit.

Yes.

Probably is. Would be a sense in there. And then specifically.

And I know that you're going to get into this, but when I met

you, you were on the. On the, like, not other side of it, but on

the recovery side of the tail end. Tail end. Trying to recover

from it.

Yes.

And what I heard from you was like, I don't feel like I can move

forward right now in ministry because of it. And I don't know if

that, like, there's. To me, that looks like some. Not lack of

fruit, but, like, can't exercise in the calling that God

has given you.

Yes. Yeah. And there was like. It comes back to expectations of,

like, what I perceived people were putting on me, what I perceived

from the Lord. And some of it. Some of it, I think, was born out

of, like, an immaturity in myself. And so, like, with any burnout

conversation, it was in my own story, really easy for me to cast

blame and be like, oh, it's their fault. It was a toxic work

culture or unhealthy. And I've come back to the other side of like,

oh, it's. There's something in me that is also drawing these things

out that I had to. I had to deal with both. Like, it wasn't something

I could be like, well, I'm just going to deal with me. Because

there is, like, an external factor that was, like, at play.

So why don't you share some of, like, what burnout was for you?

Yeah, whatever you're comfortable with.

Ready? You excited about this?

Excited? I'm already burnout on this conversation. No, no, no.

Yeah. So was working in ministry. So at 18, started working

at a church as an intern. Um, and the advice that was given to

me by a mentor, which I think taken correctly can be good advice,

but I don't think I was mature enough or had the counsel to, like,

really operate well in this was the more, you know, the more

you can do. And so I was constantly like, okay, well, I need

to get my foot in the door. I need to show my value. I need to

become indispensable. So I was just like, well, I'm going to learn

how to do this and I'm going to learn how to do this. And so I

moved from intern to like a paid contractor doing social media,

which is obviously your real house. Yeah, yeah. Not. Not anything

that I even remotely care about at this point in my life.

As you're watching clips of this in social media.

Yes, yes. Where it's just like, me personally, like, not super

active on, like, I have them, but I'm not like, yeah, this is my

jam. It's like, oh, wow, passion area. No, definitely not.

So started, yeah, it was like 10 hours a week and then went to

25 hours a week with that. Plus I was band directing on Sundays,

running a student ministry worship team to coming on full time

as a communications person. So I learned how to do web design, learned

how to do like newsletters, email things. Yes. And part of my

own problem was as I was like gaining all these responsibilities,

making myself indispensable. I wasn't releasing responsibility,

I was just like constantly adding. So like, by the time I'm,

I started at 18, by the time I'm 25, I'm basically doing like

three jobs. And I think there was a point in my life where I'd

have worn that as a badge of honor. Like, oh, yeah, I can do three

jobs at capacity. It's going to get done. And now it's like, it's

like a pocket of shame of like, oh, I was working way beyond

my limits, trying to conjure up, I guess, meaning and approval

for myself. But the culture I was in, like, I won't, I won't use

the word toxic. I think it was unhealthy in that we were very work

driven. Like, it's a, it's about what you can produce versus

fruit. And so got to the point where it's like, well, my value is

in what I can produce, so I just have to constantly produce more

and more and more. And so end of 2019, beginning of 2020, I started

having like anxiety attacks where it was just like, not quite

like a panic attack where you're just like, here's this like

really hyper moment of just like, can't breathe. It was more

of like eight hours of just full on anxiety. I'm laid out in

my room. I just didn't feel like I could function. And so I'm

like, I should probably go to counseling and get some help. And

just through, through that. I didn't have language around this

at the time, but burnout is what one of the counselors that I

met with was like, yeah, you're probably like working way

beyond your capacity to, to function as a person and with the

added pressure of, like, well, I'm working for the kingdom of God,

so shouldn't I, like, essentially work myself to the bone

to see, like, the gospel go out to people and people change lives?

And it was just. Yeah, I'm sorry.

It's just that's such a dangerous place to be. But it's,

But I think it's so natural. I'm going back to this.

Super passionate about this.

So, like, I am so even going back to trying to exemplify what

burnout. I think you guys did a really good job at kind of talking

about it. And I was thinking of who was behind the camera. Marty.

And he loves cars and doing burnouts in cars and all that kind

of stuff. And I thought about what's going. The burnout of a car.

Yeah, I know. I mean, but, like, think about it. The wheels

keep turning and turning and turning and turning, and you're burning

through all the rubber, but you're not going anywhere. And I

think that's probably what you, what you. Oh, yeah, you were,

you were, you were turning, turning, turning, burning, burning,

burning. Trying to go somewhere and produce something and

go really fast. Brian, maybe. Or not. Not speed, but, like, much

production, right?

Yes.

And you were, you, you were doing the complete opposite. You

were drying yourself out, and you were coming down to the bone.

Because I had never heard you say that. You at that as a season,

you said a pocket of shame. That's hard because I always saw

that as what, in the time that I've known you, which is about, what,

about four years now?

Four years.

I've always seen that aspect of your life as a place where God

moved in freedom and brought health to your life. So I'd see it

as like, a moment of God doing a lot of really important work in

me. And I just heard you say that it was maybe a pocket of shame.

And I just feel for that because I don't, I don't, man. I,

I, I don't want that for you. I don't want that for anybody. Right.

I, I saw this phrase on, you know, those, like, carousels on Instagram

that's like all these random quotes that are supposed to be inspirational,

and they have this, like, little super exciting Daisy, like,

music in the background. I saw this quote that I actually really

liked, and I wrote it down. It's like, maybe burnout is not the

end of your calling. Maybe it's the beginning of a healthier,

more honest one.

Yeah.

And that was really good because I feel like in the seasons,

that There was a season, maybe, I don't know, maybe I need

to talk more to my counselor about this. But, like, I don't. I

don't feel like I ever got to that point of like, of burnout. But

in the seasons where I feel like I've been overworked, like,

there was one season where my sweet husband, when he got stuck

in Brazil for a period of time, I kind of took over his job

and let go of some other aspects of my job. But there was

like, there was like a series of two weeks where it was heavy,

heavy, heavy. We had a fasting or. No, it was a post retreat and

we were moving into our new admin building and great times. It

was great because I love, like, those high, like, high, you

know, pace a lot of tasks to accomplish. Like, I get a serotonin

kick every time I check something off my to do list. Like,

I loved it, but at the end of the day, I'd be like, dang, I don't

have anything left. And then I remember one of my bosses calling

me out on it, and he was like, I think you're reaching a level of

unhealth. And so I want you to be sure to know your limits. Like,

you are not superwoman. Like, and that's okay. Like, and so that

was like an encouraging word for me because I was just. I wasn't

looking to do any of those things for any sense of acclaim.

I just wanted to do it because I. It was my job. Like, I felt like

a responsibility and ownership to do all those things, but, like,

feeling seen by my pastor slash supervisor and also, like,

being able to humble myself to be like, oh, I am working in an unhealthy

way, you know, Like, I don't know, was sobering for me.

It was also a terrible season because you weren't married to your

husband at the time. Golly. And he was out of the country. It

was such a dark age, really. Carlos, we love you.

Yeah, we love you.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

No, I was gonna say, I love that quote that you said.

Yeah.

Because there's there for me that, like, that quote is literally

for me, my experience with burnout. So this was Covid time.

I was part time student pastor, and ministry period was just

hard engaging with students through the Internet. But that was

also the season where the Lord welled up in me, like, just a desire

to reach people digitally. So I started streaming video games and

really started to make a small, good, decent amount from it

and wanted to really pursue it. So I was just, after two things

Wanting to see this ministry grow and also wanting to reach people

digitally. But then it came to a point where, like, I was working

crazy amount of hours doing online because I was passionate about

both. And it came to a point where I couldn't do both healthily.

And it led me to a place, like, I remember, like, Fairy can

tell you about that. I was just crying all the time, like, and

it's Covid. Nobody sees you. You're just crying, you know, like,

yeah, yeah. You're just.

Amen.

But it was. It was a rough season. But I love what you said.

It was like, what was the same part of.

It's like, maybe it's the beginning of a healthier, more honest.

One more honest season.

And when I. When I took a break from it, the very next thing

that I come back to is an online ministry, Literally online

pastor at Fielder Church. And it was such a healthy season for

me.

I think there's nothing more vulnerable than be able to, like,

be able to be honest about your limitations and your brokenness.

And so it's like, whenever we're able to own up to, like, I

do have limitations. Wow. Like, that is, like, there's so much

growth, and that's such fertile ground for the Lord to work

in your life and for you to see a strength that surpasses, like,

anything that you could formulate or produce. And so I agree

with you. I think there is, like, something super God honoring

in being able to admit, like, I can't do this well.

And the opposite is also true for the enemy.

Yeah.

So if you are not humble enough to say, I have my limitations,

then what takes that place is pride. And pride is going to be the

fertile ground for Satan to come in and bring you to places of

unhealth.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think, like, even in your story, like, having a structure

in place where it's like, this is my tendency right now as a person

of unhealth, and then having someone come behind you and say,

that's not healthy. Not everyone has that same opportunity

when it's like, oh, I'm working from a place of unhealth.

And the place that I'm at is also operating at a pace of unhealth

that just kind of, like, continues to draw that out. And it's

like, I think more so than, like, outright sin, moral failure,

and those are things that burnout can lead to. But it's like,

this is a place where the enemy can work so hard in pride.

Yeah.

To just take people out of ministry, and that's like, What I,

what I told my, the lead pastor and the executive pastor at

the time, I was like, I want to be in ministry long term, and

if I keep working here, I won't want to. And they both are

just kind of were like.

But that's like a teachable moment for them too, you know, like

what I'm saying? Like, it's like, I don't know. Hopefully they

took something from that.

Yeah. And we, we have to trust that the Lord is doing a work in

them as well, because none of us are perfect. Doesn't matter what

level of leadership you have within a church.

Yeah.

And it's important for every single human being to be teachable.

And so I think that's true. But wanted to mention something you

said that sin, and there's certain blatant sin that can come

from burnout, but I think that burnout is extremely dangerous because

it's the one that you can rationalize the most. Well, I'm doing

good for the kingdom. I'm doing good for others. I'm doing

good for the organization. I'm honoring God because I'm working

hard. And these are all things that I heard you were, the things

that you were saying to yourself and even user as well as

you were sharing your story, talking about, like, okay, these

are all good things. And even you, Becky, talking about how this

was a place of joy you were finding in accomplishing all these

tasks. And this is why you have to be so rooted in your relationship

with Christ so that you can hear the voices. Like, for you, it

was the pastor, and for you, I think it was the spirit. And for

you, maybe your wife in all these areas, like people around you

care for you, know you, love you, and are also God honoring people

that want to, that want to follow what God's doing. And so they,

they help you out.

And I, I think too, I think your. What your spiritual life, your

spiritual life was already suffering to like whenever you got

to burnout or it's suffering because of your burnout, you know,

like, I feel like those are like kind of hand in hand. Well,

there was one season semi recently where I was kind of like

again on the precipice of burnout. I was like, I could feel

myself like, oh my God, I'm my God and it's right there. And I.

My spiritual, my quiet time was like basically non existent.

And I was just like kind of going on yesterday's wisdom for today.

And so. And that's just not a good way to live your daily life.

You know, give Give me this day my daily bread, you know, kind

of thing. And I remember I just kept telling my husband, I was

like, I just don't have anything left. Like I just don't

feel like I have anything left. And he prayed for me that night.

And then I just felt like I could sleep for like two years. Like

I literally felt like I could sleep for that long. And I woke up

like at 3am like bright eyed, wide awake. Like that Katy Perry

song, I'm wide awake. Like I literally. I can't sing it.

You're into quoting some very interesting.

Sing it. Even though I really want to, I just can't do it. I can't

bring myself, dude. But anyways, so like I'm just wide awake.

And so I like literally woke up and I went to go do my quiet time

and I was there for like a long time. And then by the end I

was expecting, okay, I'm gonna be dead by the end of the day. Because

I woke up so early and I was, you know, bright eyed and bushy tailed

by the end of the day. Like I was like, by, you know, I went to

bed at 9pm and felt like I had slept so much. And same thing happened

the next day where I woke up again at 2am and like had another

great time with the Lord and then made it all the way until the

end of the day without falling asleep. And I think what the Lord

was speaking over me in that season is like there is no physical

rest that you can receive that will outweigh and out measure the

spiritual rest only I can give you. And like that was just so powerful

to me because I was like, I was working out of my own resources,

relying on my physical body and on my mind and on whatever I

could produce. But the Lord isn't more proud of me because I

can do more things. You know what I'm saying? And so that season

was just so impactful to me. And the Lord has done it a couple

handful of times since then. But I remember the first time it

was just so impactful. Like there's a spiritual rest that burnout

does not give you. Yeah, it cancels it out if anything.

Yeah. And it's interesting because I'm hearing you saying that

you'd get to the corner or to the edge of burnout and like the

Lord kind of helps you identify that, whereas for pushes

you over away from here.

Yes.

And you guys talk about, hey, I arrived there at the burnout. How

would you tell our viewers or our listeners to identify that? Because

there's a sense of, like, where is it that I should be most

alarmed? Or how do I know that I've gotten there? We talked a little

bit about definition of burnout, but how would you, based

on Yalls experience, say, okay, this is how I can identify

that I'm on the edge of it. And this is how I can identify that

I've arrived?

Yeah.

I think my first thought is, we want to kind of spiritualize it.

We're like, well, I want God to tell me that I'm, like, operating

from a place of unhealth. And he. He very well could. I think he

has given us. We are embodied creatures that he has given us bodies

that we need to, like, pay attention to the cues. Like, if it's

like, oh, I'm still getting eight or nine hours of sleep and

I feel absolutely exhausted, that might be a good cue that there's

something out of balance. Like, how do you find those, what

we would call natural or earthly things that are like, oh,

yeah, I need to pay attention to these cues that I normally wouldn't

be tuned into because those were the things I ignored. I was

like, well, I'm physically tired, but we have a mission to accomplish.

We have these things to do. So that's. I. I think for me, that's

like, number one is like, how do I pay attention? Yes. How do I

pay attention to what limits my body is trying to cue me in on?

Which is what you were talking about earlier.

Yeah, Yeah. I would say, honestly, listen to my spouse, like,

she was already speaking. Hey, you, first of all, you work a lot.

Hey, you're doing this a lot. Hey, you. You act a certain way when

you come home or when you're done off the computer. Like, it also

didn't help that what I was trying to do is preach the gospel

playing video games. And you play video games a lot. It's not

good for your brain, you know, like, so she's telling me, it's like,

hey, you're not acting right. You know, like, I could have heeded

wisdom, but I said, no, I can do this.

Yeah. Yeah.

So physical ways to identify it, but also the community around

you, obviously your. Your wife is like the suitable partner. Right.

Who God gave you, and so you got to listen to that. But for those

that maybe aren't married, community around you, circling yourself

around the right community will help bring you to that place

of health.

When I think spiritually, it's. It was the difference for me

between I am. I am taking spiritual time to prepare for something.

This Is, like, more specific to ministry. I am taking this time

to prepare for something. I'm prepping for the next worship set,

the next meeting that I'm going into, versus, like, I am seeking

God just for the sake of seeking God. So it's like. Like,

I don't. I cannot remember really. Like, a prolonged stretch

of time. And probably those, like, maybe 2017 to 2020, where it

was like, oh, I'm just seeking God to seek God. It was always like,

well, we have two services on Wednesday. We got another service

on Sunday. Like, how do we get to get to a place where. Yeah. I

was never operating from an overflow. It was always, I'm pouring

in my cup just to pour right back out.

Yeah. Is it possible that your yes to others or to other things

has become a silent no to God?

A thousand.

Absolutely.

Because I think about. Marty mentioned this, like, Martha. Martha

versus Mary in Luke 10 of, like, she was preoccupied with a

lot of really, you know, good things. Like, it wasn't bad what

she was doing. You know, like, go back and read Luke 10 about the

two sisters. And one of them was, like, doing all these things

and preparing all these things. And Mary was just sitting

at the feet of Jesus and. And Jesus commended what Mary was doing.

Seemingly pointless. Like, you know what? Like, she's, like, she's

just sitting there. She's doing nothing. You know, like, how

from a productive mindset, like, how is that commendable compared

to what Martha over here is doing? But I think, again, like,

Jesus went back to the core thing of, like, what she is doing.

Like, she is sitting at my feet again, like, kind of what you

said about, like, seeking Jesus for the sake of seeking Jesus,

not getting, like, I don't want to. My only times that I go

to the Lord is whenever I'm like, I'm about to do this thing.

Let me come get, like, my. My Gatorade, my spiritual Gatorade,

so I can go do what I need to do. Like, it's like, no, like, I.

Again, you want to spend time with those that you love. And I want

my love for Jesus to be evident in my pursuit of him.

And you quoted this earlier. You were talking about, give us this

day our daily bread. And you think of bread, you think of sustenance,

you think of something that will keep you going. It gives you

life and all these things. The daily bread is your time with Jesus.

It's not. It's not the amount of the word of God that you get to

be able to do something that you need to do. And I know that we

have people listening to this and watching this that could either

be on either side, like in ministry and pursuing things, or

serving your church really well, which if you're not, you need

to be doing that because it matters. But for those of you that

maybe just having quite entered into spiritual leadership

of others, this is so important for you to know before

you even do that, because you can spiritually lead others towards

the spiritual bread that comes from the word of God. If you're not

doing it yourself and you want to talk about how to prevent burnout,

you ensure that you have a deep quality time with Jesus.

And I saw this thing talking about encouragement for the burnt

out soul. And there was four things that it said that I wanted

to read. God is not more proud of you whenever you're performing.

You are not more loved when you're doing more. Your rest is just

as holy as your work. And there's no shame in stepping back

to breathe. And that was like, again, it kind of goes back to the

whole concept of rest and Sabbath is an act of worship. And

I think we, I think particularly like in Western culture,

like, we just, we are so independent and very, like productivity,

like very efficient that we tend to kind of treat our spiritual

life in the same way when that's not how it's supposed to go.

And so I think it, it just, it's just some. It's a slippery slope.

And I think that's when accountability is such a big piece.

Like, there's times where, like, I'll skip my quiet time and

my husband will literally come by and bring me my Bible and my journal

and like, put it right in front of me and then take my phone

from me, like. And so it's like there's an accountability piece

there that I think we all should have. If it's not your spouse

and it's like your best friend or your pastor or, you know, your

parents or whoever it is in your area that they just have that

act that you've allowed people that access into your life to be

able to speak sanctification over you.

And you said it perfectly. You allowed people to enter in. You have

to choose accountability for you to grow because you have to want

it for it to be the most effective for you. But that's what

we were designed for. We were designed for community. And that

community is meant to help us grow in our faith.

I agree. How does people pleasing or fear of disappointing

others play a role, if any?

I can't say because I don't Want anybody to get upset at me,

whatever.

That's crazy.

There's some lore there. We'll put you guys in later. Goodness.

Well, I mean, it's. I think it's the root of the lie that you

tell yourself to kind of keep going forward. Well, I need to please

somebody. My value is in what other people think of me, and my

value is in what I can produce, and my value is in how well

I do in this. And so as. As a prototypical people pleaser here,

that's what I am.

I do not.

Whatever. It's. It's an area where I've had to grow in because

I've had to learn to say no. And as a people pleaser, I like to

say yes. I don't like people to ask me something and me say that

I can't do it. And so to have to grow in that is a lot of trusting

in God. Because even if I don't please the person, but I please

God, then I have done well, right? And if pleasing God is being

healthy in my personal relationship with him, and out of

that personal relationship with Him I get to bless others, then

I am well and I am good, and I'm doing what is honoring to God.

But the more I seek to please others, the more selfish I become.

Because I want to do it for my reasons, for your glory. For my glory,

and to bring honor to my own name.

Yeah, no, I agree. And if you're saying yes to everything,

you're saying no to everything at the same time. Like, I am a firm

believer that you cannot overstretch yourself because you're

gonna. You're like, you can't give 100% to everything. And so,

like, this thing that's super important over here is gonna get,

like, 25% of you. And this other super important thing is gonna

get 15%. Whenever the Lord, like, might be asking you to do these.

This. These two or one things at 100% capacity, but because you're

saying yes and over committing to all these things, you're invested

in nothing at the same time. And so, like, I'm. I, like, I think,

again, like, that takes a lot of discernment and a lot of prayer

of, like, I don't need to be in two or three community groups

to make my name known. I can just invest in this one community

to, like, really be present and. And be poured into and invested

into. I don't need to, like, have all of these, like, all these

relationships with all these people. When the Lord has given these

five people in My hands that he's given me favor with. You know

what I'm saying? And so, like, I. I just think it takes discernment.

And just like, again, like, I think you need to be okay with disappointing

others because that's just gonna happen regardless because you.

Sometimes you might say yes to something and then you end up disappointing

them anyway because your, your heart wasn't really in it, you know?

Yeah. Like, so it's like, it's a lose, lose situation either way.

Well, I think you're keying into something where it's like, when

we talk about burnout, oftentimes we talk about workplace,

like, what am I doing with my 9 to 5 or whatever. But you're highlighting,

like, you can be burnout in a host of different areas in your life.

Like, if it is, oh, I have to hit these certain benchmarks in my

spiritual life. Like, that can be a place of burnout. If it's like

coming from a place of selfishness. I have to do this with,

with family or with friends or with, I don't know, communal engagement

or something. Like, there, there are a ton of different ways

where burnout can, like, manifest not just in our working

lives. That's what we see most often because that's where we spend

a lot of our time. But I think, yeah, it's interesting to

highlight and note there too.

You reacted earlier when the people pleasing thing, and I kind

of spoke to it, but do you have any people pleasing tendencies?

And if so, what do you do with them?

What do you want my answer to be? No, I definitely have people

pleasing tendency. And it's. So much of it is born out of perception.

Like, I want to be perceived as a certain kind of person. Like,

I'm reliable, I'm trustworthy, I can get the job done. Which is

what led like, personally to so much of my burnout before was

I was trying to achieve an identity when the Lord was like,

I've already given you one. You're a son of God. Like, you just

have to receive it, preach it, brother. And for me, that was like,

I don't think that really hit me probably until about a year ago

when I was like, so like, even in the midst of, like, working through

burnout, going through counseling. Yeah, it wasn't something

that, like, I didn't realize how much of my identity was tied

up in what people thought of me. And now it's like, oh, I feel

so much more freedom when it's based on this is who God has made

me to be, but who God has Called me as a result of what Jesus

has done for me. It's like, yeah, it's totally different.

I'm just. I'm laughing because it was about a year ago that he stopped

working with me, started working on a separate team. So obviously

he needed to move to understand what healthy identity

was. I'm sorry for reading your.

Dang.

This work is real people.

For background. Tony was the one who brought me back into ministry,

and I worked with. I worked with him for what, two years?

Yeah, two years.

That's great. This is great. No, people pleasing was not attached

to this man. I promise. So it was just.

That was so scared.

There was fortuitous timing.

Yes. It was a coincidence. There were spiritual things happening

on.

In the backside.

That's crazy.

Well, that's a way to call me out, Becky. I'm over here trying

to have my own moment.

You were like. It was like you were trying to stifle us.

I was trying to stifle it. I wasn't aware. I'm glad. For candid

conversations, he.

Wow, you said something like, the language you're using, it just

reminds so very similarly the language of, like, freedom, identity,

one thing like big shout out to Pastor Larry Dan, who was walking

with a few of guys. We're going through this curriculum called

Steps to Freedom. And it was literally that revelation that really

showed me that I am a people pleaser or, like, seeking approval.

But it was crazy because it oftentimes it's not just a lie that

we tell ourselves. It's actually what's been spoken to us.

And so we went through this exercise of, like, praying and just

asking the spirit of God, God, can you show me? Like, when did this

lie begin? And, like, not to out anybody, but it was just like

over and over, just constantly just waiting on the Lord. And he

brought me back to a specific moment.

Where was it with me?

No, this specific moment when I was in Tony's office. This is like,

little kid, little kid. But just like, spoken over me of like,

your, like, your parents only approve of you because of the work

that you do. And so it made me strive and strive and strive to try

to gain their approval. And then I took that in all these different

relationships. And I ultimately took it to God where it's

like, God, I'm just. Rather than working from a place of approval,

I was trying to seek God's approval. And then I took it in every

other relationship.

Understanding that is so important when you work, you got

to see work as worship. Any line of work that you do. Has to

be your act of worship to God. And when you work as an outflow of

how you've been approved by God, that is huge, brother. That's

absolutely, it's freeing. I agree with you 100%.

I think it's freeing because there's a security in who you have,

like, in what your identity is. And so like you mentioned this

in the parents episode that we did last time of like speaking over

your sons, like, knowing that they are like my sons, like, I love

you because you are my son. And so just even having that mindset

as children of God that like we are his children, he loves us.

And so there is like a, there is a insecurity that we like to cling

to as an effort to try and earn our value in the kingdom. And

that's not where the Lord wants us. Like he wants us to have

the security of our, of who we are as children of Christ, that he

has prepared us to walk in these works, you know, and he has

decided to like the founder and perfecter of our faith. He'll

go before us in the work, he'll be behind us in the work, you

know, and he'll be with us in the work. So you have some pretty,

like you're very passionate about these like, specific barriers

and boundaries that you have. What are some of those that you would

like to share with us?

Yeah, I think that it's important for every single believer

in Jesus to have regular rhythms in life and that can help

you gain some health and can help prevent some burnout. And so

I've seen a lot of burnout around me and I think that that's

kind of, honestly, a little bit of the people pleaser in me has

wanted to like, why can't do that? I don't want to get to where

that person got to. And as a result, in a weird way, God chose

to redeem that and bring me to a place of specific practices that

I use towards health that even helped me gauge when I'm arriving

to places like you're talking about where I'm like, there's something

alarming here that's happening and I need to deal with it. So Sabbath,

I think that's one of the first low entry but areas of health

that you could really establish and grow in. And if you,

if you just focus on that for a season, that will bring a lot of

health and stability to your spiritual life. But the, the basic

idea of Sabbath is where you take a 24 hour period and you choose

to leave behind work and rest in the good work that Jesus has already

done for you. And you seek ways to spiritually engage with God.

So I choose to Sabbath on Sundays, and that's weird. A lot

of people think that it's odd that as a pastor I choose to Sabbath

on Sundays because it could be seen as a workday. And I understand

that as well. But we can have a whole other podcast about Sabbath

alone. But on Sabbath I go and engage with my church community and

I come back home and I engage in some really yummy food with my

family. And then I do activities throughout the day that

help me remember God through my family. And so we engage in family

things that help us connect with God specifically. So try not

to do a lot of shopping or anything like that, but try to focus

on ways that we engage relationally. Another one that I

try to do, as far as like overall health, is have specific

benchmarkers in my year where I am seeking to get away and distance

myself from what is everyday work. And so one of that's going

to be a vacation. So we take a family vacation. Another one's going

to be another getaway with my spouse. With my spouse.

I'm sorry, I tried to let it go. I just couldn't.

Tried to keep moving away from it. I think it's actually maybe the

second time that I, that I mispronounce a word. Thank you for

not calling me out on the first one. No, obviously you, you

heard this one. So anyways, your spouse. Yeah, my spouse. That's

fine. My wife. My wife. So a getaway to my family, getaway with

my wife, and then a spiritual getaway. And we are very blessed

to be afforded that as members of the staff of this church. And

so we have a couple of those a year. And I'm so grateful for them

because they center me back in my relationship with the Lord. And

so these are general year long practices that I keep myself accountable

to, that I'm doing that. And then on a weekly basis, not just

Sabbath, but also the dinners with both, like connecting with my

wife intentionally and then connecting with my kids intentionally,

not just on Sabbath. So, like having. I want it to be more regular

that dinners are happening at home than they are not. And the reality

is that that's not true right now as we're recording this podcast.

It's not true. And this is an area of growth for me that I discovered

recently where I am probably spending more evenings away from

the house and away from dinners with my family. Because I

keep on saying, God, why can't I Engage spiritually with my children.

Like, every time I try to engage in this way, it's hard. And

he revealed to me that one of the ways was because I was spending

more evenings and dinners away from home than I was at home. And

so hopefully by the time this podcast airs, I'm better at that.

But that's another area of growth that I think is really important

and I feel fairly confirmed. So that one's not from experience.

That one's from something that I heard on. On another media platform,

but the other ones are from an area of experience, and they have

helped me, like, have those. Those balances. Also something tangible

on the week to week is balancing my hours. So making sure

that I cap my hours that I work throughout the week. And that's

another one. That's the closest that I've ever been to burnout

was when my wife started saying, like, hey, you work a lot.

And when I took that to my pastor and my supervisor at the time,

he was like, yeah, we need to work on this. We want to make sure

that you will be chastised for overworking. And. Whereas I don't

think. Yes. And I had to assess why I was overworking because

I felt like my value, my identity was found in that. And so.

Okay, a few quick. Yeah, no rapid fire stuff.

I love that. What are yalls final thoughts as. As we close this

up? Like, any. Like, I have to say this.

I have to say this in addition to Sabbath, I love Sabbath and what

we do for Sabbath to. You already know what I'm going to say.

We play pickleball. That's right.

It's a great Sabbath practice.

The best his baby literally does.

Yeah.

Didn't we talk about pickleball last time I was on the

podcast? That's obviously.

We love it.

Yeah.

Pickleball and Sabbath. Do something with your family. Like,

do something with your community. Like, do something that

recharges you, that you like, that you like. Enjoy. So, yeah, I

agree.

You asked for final thoughts. Resting is not evil.

Amen. Say it again.

Resting ain't evil.

Say it again.

El descansar no es pecado.

Okay.

You can put subtitles on that.

That's good.

I love it.

Rest is not something you have to earn. It's something that God

gives you.

That was. That one was better than mine. I like that.

No, but I think they go hand in hand because we so often think.

Like, you hyperventilated when he started saying that.

Okay, sorry.

Yeah, like, I operated from this place of, like, well, once I

finish X Y and Z, then I can rest. And it's like, oh, God literally

baked a rhythm of rest into creation before we did anything we

don't have, before we produced anything. Yes. Like the first day.

Like, first basically full day that people were on the Earth. Rest

because God rested. And it's like, it's not something you have

to earn. You don't have to put in your time, like, receive it.

Receive it. There's humility in receiving it.

Yes.

Well, yes.

You got a rich.

I'm like, dang. I wasn't expecting to be personally attacked,

but it's okay.

It's what Eric does.

I personally attack people all the time.

That's why he hasn't been on the podcast yet.

We've had to work soothing forgiveness.

Forgiveness and betterness. All right, well, thank you guys so

much. Thank you all for coming and for sharing your.

It really is an honor to. Seriously, I. I appreciate the opportunity

to come and talk with you guys. I'm thankful.

Yeah, we like having you guys. Okay. And tell your spouse we said

hi.

I'm never leaving this with. Anyways. I'm never leaving this with.

We love you guys. Peace out.

Peace.