On Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor. 12) | The Sandhurst Podcast

All right.

Welcome to the Sandhurst Beyond Sunday podcast.

I want to equip the Saints to think biblically about God, life, and culture so that our faith goes beyond Sunday.

And uh I would say the next few podcasts are gonna be especially relevant for a podcast that's helping our faith go beyond Sunday.

And last week was too.

But yeah, because I think so many uh church members and myself included in the past have felt like, okay, you know, we love Jesus, we love people, but otherwise, you know, faith is kind of a generic thing.

You know, love God, love people, and then go about your business.

But we have a unique design that really has uh often been overlooked, sadly.

And we can come alive when we actually understand and then employ that design.

Yep.

So we're gonna we're gonna be in 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 for the next three four weeks, um, including yesterday.

Yeah.

Uh but uh before we jump into that, uh I know you're a Marvel guy.

Yeah.

You uh you seen Spider-Man?

I tried to get there several times and did not succeed all weekend long, which was a little frustrating, but um I had my kids went and saw it, and one kid saw it twice.

Uh but I'm trying to avoid spoilers, so I need to go soon.

How about you?

Uh have not seen it, um, but I want to.

I you're not you don't love Spider-Man.

Okay, okay.

Spider-Man's.

I'm glad you brought that up.

I wasn't gonna say it.

There people out there, there are people that just really, really dig Spider-Man.

Uh that's just one of those things.

I I love Marvel, I love the whole, you know, uh universe, but I mean, I don't get Spider-Man.

I really don't.

I mean, dude.

I know, I know Batman has his people, Spider-Man has his very strong following.

And honestly.

Toby McGuire, bro?

Yeah, I know.

Kind of, I know.

I mean, he's Were you in England when that came out?

He's alright.

Russia?

Yeah, I was in England, yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

I'm just kind of like, you know, Spider-Man.

You're Captain America.

Yeah.

I like Captain America, I like Iron Man.

You like yeah.

Yeah.

That's fair.

Yeah.

Any other highlights from the weekend then?

Yard work.

You know, it just, you know, honestly, uh, I feel like um I'm, you know, kind of shifting from you know, Marvel to Tolkien.

I feel like I'm a hobbit.

I just sit out, you know, I do a lot of, I do, I like weeding.

I like I'm not a I'm not I I don't plant bushes, I don't raise flowers, but I can tear things out.

I can tear the weeds out, tear the vines out.

And mentality, I can't just tell you that vines and weeds in South Carolina grow like it's incredible.

It's part of the curse, man.

Bro, we got a Bible shit.

Why isn't anything legit grow like that?

It's all the junk, you know?

It's crazy.

All right, well, as far as weekend for me, I got I got like top-tier event that happened.

Went to my uncle's house and I knew that he was cooking steaks for us.

Uh but to my surprise and to my great uh pleasure, well, dude, when we went out to the grill, he had some New York strips for the girls, he had um a couple ribeys, he had fillets for our wives, and like I'm talking like uh probably 12 to 16 ounce fillets.

Wow, that's that's a big fillet.

And then two tomahawk ribeyes.

I'm not kidding, this big.

No.

Three and a half pounds each.

Wow! So good.

Wow.

Wow.

And we had sushi for an appetizer.

Wow.

All of your love language.

A day.

I was like, sushi and meat are Will Rutts' love languages.

That is what I'm saying.

It kind of stops there, too.

I mean what did he season them?

Uh yeah.

So just salt and pepper.

No.

Just salt and pepper.

Yeah.

So Rock salt, table salt?

I didn't ask.

Okay.

The good the good stuff.

Incredible.

So good.

And actually, we uh Where do you get them?

Uh Sam's.

Wow, okay, yeah.

They got good meat.

Yeah.

Um my daughter Rachel had her birthday.

It was actually yesterday on Sunday.

She turned eight years old.

And I was so proud.

We're like, you know, asking her what she wants for her birthday lunch, and she goes, sushi and steak.

I was like, No way.

That's discipleship right there.

You've trained her well.

Yes, raise up a child in the way they should go.

And when they are eight, they will not depart from it.

So we did we did some venison backstrap last night.

It's good stuff.

Stang, dude.

Yep.

All right.

Um did you see Spider-Man by the way?

No, no, no.

I did not see Spider-Man because I want to.

Okay.

All right.

Um, probably my biggest reason I haven't yet is I need to I need to recap.

I don't remember them very much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I I have heard that you kind of need to remember the backstory.

Yeah.

So need to get get back into the Spider-Man scene.

All right.

Spiritual gifts.

Yeah, man.

We First Corinthians, dude, if you want to teach through a book that has controversial topics in it, like First Corinthians is your book.

Yep.

And so there are lots of different ideas on spiritual gifts.

And um, and depending on what church you go to, you're gonna see spiritual gifts represented uh very differently.

Yes.

And so always want to start Bible questions need Bible answers.

And so we should start with, okay, what does the Bible say?

That's what we'll do.

And uh then we want to talk about spiritual gifts again in a way that isn't just theological, but that like theology really matters.

Um but in a way that helps our church take their faith beyond Sunday.

And that really is the goal and what we hope.

Oh, one other thing I wanted to ask about.

Last week we talked about kind of our our one word for showing love in the gathering.

Your your word was see.

Yep.

My word was chill.

Yep.

How how'd that go?

Okay, so I was actually seeing go.

Yes, I was cognizant of this over on Sunday because um, you know, it it's still fresh, and I was thinking, all right, this is my first shot related.

And um it it uh I'm gonna say v minus.

I mean, like I I was trying, but uh I was just like, I was like, really?

It's like you know, when you study really hard and the teacher asks all the wrong questions.

I was like, I'm ready.

And then I was like, oh, not for that.

And so it was just what what what were the barriers for you?

Um so I think for me, uh I got I got behind on one thing, you know, and so all of a sudden I'm kind of a little bit on my heels.

And then, you know, I got asked a couple of questions that um, you know, but you know, by by good by friends that are that are well-meaning, good stuff, but like that's a that's a stress for me on Sundays, and I don't ever know quite how to handle that when someone's asking about something that does not need to be brought up then.

Like it's not relevant to that day or what's even happening right now, or it's just kind of this out there.

And I would I always kind of want to tell people, you know, um, I love you and I want to talk about that, but Sunday morning, like, you know, think about that.

And so that was that was what was a challenge to me was to think, okay, God, this person is in front of me and they have this question right now.

And so I want to deal with this right now.

For sure.

Um, and I want to see this person and I have my agenda, and I told you I was gonna see the people in front of me, and I need to set aside my agenda.

And I think about how many times Jesus was interruptible, right?

And and and he didn't say, Hey, look, guy, hey, look, lady, I've got I've got to go do this over here.

He he stopped and he dealt with people.

And so I think for me, the biggest problem was not the people in front of me, it was me.

Right.

And it was um just deprogramming myself from this sort of mentality of no, I've got my agenda as the priority.

Right.

And that was harder than I thought.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And depending on the things that come up or the the logistical sort of task things that end up being difficult that you didn't anticipate.

But uh yeah, just totally agree that church needs to be a place where our the pastors are accessible.

Yes.

And when people do have something that uh they want to bring up to a pastor, yeah, let what better place than at church.

And so not everything can be kind of hashed out on a Sunday morning.

Yeah.

But uh I know you and I both would want our church to know, hey, on a Sunday, that's right, when we're all together, we are accessible.

That's that's part of why I stay up at the front in the um after the service.

Yeah, is I I want to be available in a spot that is less high traffic.

Right.

So it's not just kind of the the handshakes, you know, you know, thanks for this morning type stuff.

It's the uh, hey, this is something that is um kind of weighing on me.

And so would would love it if if I've never met you and you're listening to the podcast, would love that to be able to meet you.

Yeah.

And uh that's that's I want to be in like a a predictable, consistent, uh what's not predictable, but yeah, I think consistent's good.

Yeah, and and I have the opposite strat, right?

So my strat is to try to get out to the lobby to be actually be that person so that when the flood's going by, on you know, for that to just to be visible on the way out.

For people who don't want to turn and go towards the front, they know they're going out.

And I want to be the guy in the lobby who's there for the person who didn't really think they had something to ask about, but then when they get to the lobby, they realize they did.

Yeah, and they can, and I'm there.

Yeah, you know, and so they don't want to, they don't want to go back in.

There I am.

And so that that's kind of my strategy.

And and I and and on the flip side of it, um, it also was a good reminder to me when I felt that tension in my heart on Sunday talking to somebody, I realized I've been at a church and wanted to talk to the pastor, and I don't want to be sitting there thinking, is this does this matter enough for his time?

Right.

You know, I don't want to be evaluating that because I I just think if it matters to me, it should matter to him.

And so kind of I I agree with you, Will, and to to to the to Sanders Nation out there and anyone who visits, you know, if it's important to you, it sh it it should be important to us.

And so we, I am committed to being available for for whatever you got.

Yes.

Yeah, you nobody at our church needs to ask, you know, is this important enough?

That's right.

If it's important enough for it to come to your brain, it's important and it's important enough for us to want to talk about.

So to bring it.

You know, there was an an interesting kind of a, I think, a cool moment at the end of it all.

There was uh um a guy talking to me, and I could realize that we were getting about three or four layers into a story, and I said, you know, man, um, you probably have some freedom this week.

I do too.

I can tell we're not gonna be able to sort this out like in the moment here in the fray.

Could we book a deal?

Could we book a gig?

And we did.

And we actually booked a meeting and like we're gonna get together, but I wouldn't have gotten there if he wouldn't have come up to me.

Yeah, let'd be a launch pad.

We couldn't solve it there, but I I realized, hey, uh, we got some time, let's book it, and we did.

Yeah.

Good.

Yeah, that that that is good.

And so that is part of a church gathering being more than a uh a service to attend, but we like we're a church family.

That's right.

And uh want to be available to each other.

Amen.

All right, spiritual gifts.

I'm gonna read.

Um I can I th I think I'll read from verse four.

I'll start from four to thirteen.

All right.

Now there are a variety of gifts, but the same spirit, variety of ministries, same Lord.

Now, one thing I didn't emphasize on Sunday that I just want us to pay attention to as I read this is his stress on the the unity, the sameness.

Yeah.

That there's a lot of division happening around spiritual gifts in the church, which we'll see especially in chapter 14.

But he he wants to bring, like, while there is a variety of gifts and ministries and effects, there's the same God behind it and one body that uh these various members and gifts make up.

Okay.

Now the variety of gifts, same spirit, the variety of ministries, the same Lord, the varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

For to one is given the word of wisdom through the spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same spirit, to another, faith by the same spirit, and to another, gifts of healing by the one spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

But one and the same spirit works all these things.

Love this verse, distributing to each one individually, just as he wills.

All right, so uh what he just did there is he gave us a list of nine spiritual gifts.

And uh so let's let's talk about spiritual gifts real quick and uh what are they?

And actually got a few questions from um some people that I want to ask specifically.

Okay, so question one that I got.

Uh does it does everyone get one spiritual gift or can you have multiple?

The Bible doesn't okay, yeah.

So that's that's the question.

Does everyone get one or can you get multiple?

Can you be like have like a major and a minor and then a double minor?

You know, how's that work?

I don't know.

Um I know that he everyone has at least one.

And I think there could be things related to that one.

I don't, I mean, I don't I don't see God going, okay, you get one, you get two, you get three.

I I don't know that it's that cut and dried, but I do think that there are people who have a gift that then helps them to excel in other areas.

But I would tend to think mainly people are given one gift.

I would I would tend to think that because I think about like, uh, so you know, uh my thumb, uh, you know, the main thing it does is it allows us to conquer the apes, right?

The opposable thumb.

Uh and it uh but it it it you know it can it can maybe scratch my back or it can do other things, but its main thing is to it's a grip.

That's it has one main purpose, but I you know I can use it for other things.

And so I kind of think the same thing for for for spiritual gifts.

Okay.

Yeah.

So with the question is every does everyone j have just one?

I would say, well, uh no one has none.

And when I say no one, I mean no believer, right?

Because spiritual gifts is God-given ability empowered by the Spirit, and only believers have the Spirit.

Yeah.

Um no believer has none, but it is very likely that God gives more than one.

Uh take Paul, for instance.

Right.

It's actually really interesting.

Uh some of the the debate around did Paul have all the spiritual gifts?

Well, the answer to that is no.

Yeah.

Um, but uh what we do know when he goes to chapter 14 is he's he labels two gifts that he does have prophecy and tongues.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so we know that he had two.

And so can you have more than one?

For sure.

They're both involved with teaching exhortation.

You know, they're kind of in the same I I can solely see that.

Yeah.

All right, question two.

Why are some spiritual gifts seemingly more common than others, like wisdom versus healing?

Um this is going to dip into what is called cessationism.

Right.

And um I'll start with you.

Give us give us a little bit of context.

What is that word I just said, cessationism, right?

And um kind of where has Sandhurst well, and and then maybe I'll speak to where has Sandhurst been, where are we at now, and uh sort of what are some of the ideas behind that?

Okay, so cessationism in simple terms is the I is ceased, right?

That the idea that the sign gifts or you know, miraculous gifts have ceased, obviously wisdom or discernment or uh have not or administration had teaching have not ceased, but the sign gifts of tongues, interpretation of tongues, healing, these types of gifts have the cessationists.

In other words, when the apostles died out, when the original people, like essentially when the um the original apostles, including Paul, were the authors of the New Testament.

When they all died, the New Testament canon was closed.

And the idea is that also the sign gifts were closed because what those gifts served the purpose to take the gospel to places where there was no word of God.

But once the word, the New Testament was canonized, finalized, and could be distributed, there was no further need for these sign gifts.

There's no need for tongues because you have God's word.

And so there was a sense in which the New Testament replaced the sign gifts.

Um and also in terms of cessationism and healing, um, there was a sense in which people, there was a shift in early centuries from needing to prove Christianity through signs as to proving it more through character or through wisdom or through the fruit of your life.

And so there was a shift uh in the church from being a sign of the truth of God with miraculous powers to being a sign as, say, a witness of your life.

So that was kind of the the shift.

That that's a good explanation.

And uh so when it comes to the sign gifts, uh when we read chapters 12 through 14, and particularly chapter 14, which does which deals with one of those sign gifts, and that is tongues, um, there there's a couple different views on tongues.

Whatever, but here's the common agreement on tongues.

It is a person speaking a language that they don't know.

That's for sure.

Okay, the nature of that language is debated, and we'll get that to that in three weeks.

Yeah, but um it's speaking a language that they don't know.

That's right.

Uh here's here's what Paul says in chapter 14, verse 39.

Therefore, this is the last two verses bringing everything together.

Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

Like it's honestly it's kind of hard for me to see how the cessationist viewpoint has got got as much traction as it did when Paul also says in in chapter 14, I wish that you all spoke in tongues.

Right.

Like Paul's not he's not um uh shy about rebuking them.

Right.

He's certainly rebuked them a lot, and I think if he was if he thought that the sign gifts, like tongues, ceased with the apostles, he'd be like, hey, y'all speaking in tongues and you're faking it.

It's not real.

Yeah.

So stop it.

Right.

Well, and that and honestly, you know, that's where your and my backgrounds kind of become relevant because I grew up um in an early Christian context where tongue speaking was common, like weekly in the in the church service and I uh in in a more charismatic assembly.

And so I can speak to that to say uh that is cessationists tend to start, I think, with their experiences and sort of backfield it with theology rather than start with the Bible and theology and then run it to their experiences.

I I do think there's a lot there's been a lot of bogus stuff that spoils the well, so to speak, for people and they kind of almost look for a reason to believe cessationism.

Yeah.

Um okay, so uh you you touched on this, but why do some gifts appear seem to be more common than others?

Um you touched on it.

There's there's kind of a a theology of the miraculous that we can trace through the Bible to see um when uh miracles tend to be more common and then when they tend to be less common.

Right.

And so can I say something about that?

Yeah, because um I know you may be about to explain this.

I don't want to take it out away from you, but no, go ahead.

Um, but yeah, I think people tend to think uh from Paul all the way back to creation, yeah, you know, it was like this world of miracles, and it's all through the Bible, and then all of a sudden it just kind of died out.

You're right.

Uh not true.

Uh miracles were centered in about two or three epochs.

So, I mean, obviously creation, but you know, that's God.

But but then there's this no, I mean, you don't think about miracles happening really until uh Moses, you know, and in the Ten Commandments, I mean the ten plagues and the parting of the sea and all of that.

So there's a long period from essentially Adam and Seth to Moses where it's pretty quiet and people are just living their lives.

And then uh Moses and Joshua, the walls come tumbling down, and then you know, so there's a period of Moses Joshua, kind of a period of article of miracles, and that's around 1500 BC.

There's another round of miracles right around Elijah Elisha, which is around 800, so however many years later, uh, and and and some associated with some prophetic stuff, but mainly Elijah Elisha.

Then it really does go quiet again, basically until Jesus in the first century.

And so there's this Moses 1500, Elijah Elisha 800, and then first century.

And then even the church fathers started to write about miracles dying out around the third century and being far less common than they used to be.

And they they didn't really have an explanation for that.

Uh and then it's kind of been not, you know, and uh I would say the exception more than the rule to see active sign gifts at work.

Right.

And so some one of the explanations for what you just said is okay, so well, you got Moses, you got the prophets, you got the apostles, and Jesus, and we see more miracles there than we do in other times.

What is unique about those times that would uh that would kind of give some sort of an idea of why they were miracles?

And what uh people often will think is that uh those miracles were accompanied with some sort of new revelation.

Right.

And and it was God's the miracles were w God's way of authenticating uh the revelation that was given through Moses, through the prophets, through the apostles, and then And once that new revelation became, you might say, accepted or um kind of uh rooted, established.

Yeah, rooted and established, that that God kind of dialed back on the miracles uh and b because the miracles were a way of authenticating it.

And that's why um I I think a good explanation of why a lot of times these uh miraculous things get reported in parts of the world that like from missionaries where the gospel has not been maybe ever.

Right.

And and that it is God's way of accompanying miracles with new revelation.

Right.

And to to authenticate the And I and I think that that the the word sign is a good description of it, right?

Because when you talk about signs and wonders, because signs signify something, they they they show you something.

If you're kind of wondering which is the way to London, you know, you see the signs as London this way, you know.

And so I think signs and miracles were God's way of authenticating the truth statement that which could not be authenticated other than faith, but it was God's way of preventing his people from having to follow by blind faith.

God has never demanded blind faith, he has given us evidence for that faith.

And now in our day, we have the evidence of the resurrection of Christ and the faithfulness of the saints and the fruit of God's truth in our lives.

We can see it.

Uh, and that is the sign.

And in essence, we are the sign.

And so that's a big, that's a big responsibility and a shift.

So you're right.

A lot of the miracles you hear about in our world are in uh distant lands, and you think, well, that's convenient, isn't it?

Well, it's kind of consistent with the pattern to to to authenticate the message uh by a sign when there's no other authentication.

Yeah, uh, we are the sign.

That I that really captures it well for me and captures a big part of what was on my heart when we did the commissioning of our students and teachers into the new school year.

Yeah.

Um that uh God's people in whom his spirit dwells would be the sign, the the pointing arrow back to Jesus, back to a a hope, um back to a um something that is living for something bigger than what um oh dang dude for something bigger than um than myself and the American dream and just making good grades or um just kind of going through my my day-to-day.

And I think the New Testament authenticates that.

Like, you know, if you read the New Testament, you're gonna see um these passages that point to miracles and say speak in tongues and that kind of thing.

But the majority of our New Testament, especially past Acts, is really just about godly living.

Right.

And by the power of the spirit, but yeah.

Yeah, yes, exactly.

It's n it's it's not bootstrap, right?

Be good, moralistic.

Uh totally agree.

Um All right, so we're talking about spiritual gifts, and we want to get to these uh questions again.

Uh question one was, you know, does everyone have one or multiple?

Question two was uh what we're just talking about, why are some gifts seemingly more common than others?

Uh third question was can you explain more about what the gift of prophecy is and or looks like?

I'm probably gonna hold off there.

I think we're read.

It's coming up.

Yeah, because chapter 14 is all about prophecy in tongues.

And then the last question the difference between a gift and a talent.

All right, let me take a stab at this and uh and then Adam, I want to hear your thoughts.

A talent is 75 pounds of gold.

The difference between a gift and a talent is a I would say a good question.

And one of the primary questions that comes up when it comes to spiritual gifts.

I I intentionally, for the most part, avoided trying to make that distinction.

And here's why.

Okay.

Because I think trying to make that distinction is unhelpful towards accomplishing the purpose of the common good, the building of the body and the strengthening of faith.

Because what we can what can happen is we take something that we're good at or passionate about and love, and we go, instead of going, instead of asking, okay, how can I use this for the building of the body, for the common good, for the strengthening of faith, we get caught up with asking, okay, does this qualify as a spiritual gift or is this just a natural talent?

Right.

And then we get stuck on that, and and when we get stuck on that, then we don't get to move towards using whatever it is for the common good, the building of the body, and the strengthening of faith.

And so I to what hold on.

The you'll get to go in a second.

The um so I would be kind of int I was I was intentionally vague on Sunday to not try to make that distinction.

Either way, if it's spiritual or we'll say natural, um, the giver is God, and oftentimes it can be used for the building of the body.

So you we could use a bunch of examples here.

Let's take playing guitar.

Is playing guitar, is that a spiritual gift, or is that a natural gift?

Well, in some ways, I don't really care.

I know that the giver is God, and I want to go, okay, can that gift be used, be developed by the power of the Holy Spirit to lead the church in worship?

If so, great.

Or maybe not even just lead the church in worship to help facilitate like my own personal worship.

Then there's a lot of people who are gonna uh not like what I'm saying right now, but I I don't really care to put the label on it, whether it's spiritual gifts or natural gift, to know, can I use it for the building of the body?

If so, great, let's go.

And to do it like truly by independence on the Holy Spirit and let him work.

Aaron Powell Okay.

So the the clarifying question I'm asking here is like when you say people are asking about the gifts, difference between gifts and talents, when you say that, is that the same thing as asking the difference between spiritual gifts and natural gifts?

I believe so.

Okay, because that's how I understood the question.

Okay.

Because I was just like, you know, like what is what I I in my mind I'm thinking, what is the difference between a gift and a talent?

But I understand what you mean.

It's like a spiritual gift and a natural talent.

Yeah, and that's uh that is a question that gets brought up a lot.

Is this a spiritual gift or is this a natural talent?

You know, because there is that verse, you know, Timothy, this gift is in you by the laying on of my hands, and it makes it sound really kind of woo-woo and spooky.

Um, but uh I don't think it it has to be that way.

Like I think Paul could simply mean uh the the gift that is in you by the laying on of my hands, meaning not like it like flowed through my body into you, but like space jam, yeah, the talents into the basketball speed.

Yeah.

Love the movie.

You know, like yeah, yeah.

Neo, you know, I know kung fu, you know, like downloading some kind of uh whatever.

But um uh I think it's more simply but what Paul means by that is it's it we called it out, we saw it, we prayed about it, we affirmed it.

It's like almost like a uh a um when a minister is um I'm forgetting the word right.

What do you call it when you receive your ordination, right?

So, you know, you you you have passed all the exams or whatever's required, and then the elders lay hands on you and pray for you to be an ordained minister.

They're not like creating something out of nothing, they're acknowledging and the collective body of Christ is affirming what God is doing in one person.

And I think that's what Paul means by that.

And uh I think that makes it more um it it fits just my understanding of humanity better.

And and I I agree with you.

I don't think we need to try to split hairs over labels.

Is it a natural gift?

Is it a spiritual gift?

Is it a talent?

Or uh you know, in in short, where do you come alive, right?

And there's something to that.

Uh there's something divine about that, not just natural.

But we recognize that being born into the world and having a life is already a supernatural event.

You are every every good and perfect gift is from God, all life is given by God.

I don't think any of us would and so it would be in fact expected that even a non-believer would who is born into the image of God, is not reborn yet into his family, but is born into his image, would bear some uh some mark of of God in them.

And so to have a gift or a talent or a way that they come alive would be expected, I think.

And uh I agree there, and so quick sort of theology that uh we reject that may be relevant to this is uh what some people will call a second filling of the Holy Spirit.

Um that is the the idea that you believe in Jesus and uh are forgiven, you're set free from slavery to sin, saved, but then at a later point there's a second filling of the Holy Spirit.

Where the Holy Spirit comes on you and then gives you uh a gift, usually um some sort of miraculous gift.

Right.

Uh we that there's there's reason that they believe that when you read Acts, but that is something that we reject.

That there's a second filling of the Holy Spirit.

We believe, based on scripture, that uh when a person believes in Jesus, that we receive his spirit in full.

And uh we receive his spirit that adopts us into his family, that seals us for all eternity, that gifts us um certain spiritual gifts, uh, but that there is not a second filling of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.

Yeah.

And that spirit can be resisted or uh or or or followed, but uh I don't think there's separate events.

Yeah.

So um when it comes to like what Paul referenced, you know, this gift bestowed on him by the laying on of hands, it it could be that they prayed over him and um the Holy Spirit didn't give him a second filling, but maybe uh it could be that the Holy Spirit zapped him with a a new gift.

I think it's more likely that it is what you said that the gift was sort of called out through prayer.

Um say, hey, we see this in you.

Um we see a pastoral gifting in you, shepherding gifting in you, so we're gonna call it out and pray that over you.

Yeah.

Um, I think that's more likely.

So what I what I don't want to do in saying that uh I was and and tend to be intentionally vague or not that interested in trying to s decipher is this a spiritual gift or natural talent.

Um that is true, but I also I do think that being able to label it does help.

I just don't want to start there.

I want to start with what's the purpose?

How can I use what I love and what I'm good at to for the building of the body, strength, and faith in the coming good.

However, labeling it can help.

And whether it's Paul with Timothy in the laying on of hands or in the story that I shared, you with me in the staff meeting, being able to put language to the gifting that I have, it does help.

It's I don't think it's necessary, but it does help.

And um Yeah, and I don't know if you've seen the sheets that we turned into Tammy, but I had your initials by faith again, and I wasn't thinking about that event for years ago, because I still think it's true.

Yeah, and so what we did as a staff, we actually took a spiritual gift test, and our process was we took the test and it gives you what they uh what they would sort of identify as your top five gifts, and then we read and then but before we read our answers to the staff, we looked at the list of spiritual gifts and we just put the staff members' names by them to say, okay, where do we see um Adam gifting?

Where do we see you know Jay Weeb's gifting, Plyloer's gifting?

We went through the whole staff.

And then you'd read your answers that the software kind of generated for you.

Yeah.

And then we said, we were able to say, Oh, I we actually said the same thing.

And it was actually very interesting how consistent it was that um that we would say, hey, took the test, the test said my gifting is this, and how many other people would say, I said the exact same thing.

And that was uh actually uh I think it was really encouraging.

I think it it so it does help to be able to label the gift.

Uh I think it gives you confidence and going, this is this is part of how I'm wired.

Right.

And so um and so I want to lean into that.

So for example, um I think I said it on Sunday, but my I I have found myself like coming alive as we were sharing the the gifting that we see in the other staff members.

And uh I think that's part of what's behind that is I think I have a gift that is called exhortation.

Yeah.

Um if you're gonna put a label on it, that's it.

And that is being able to well, we we have a list of spiritual gifts.

We'll probably read some of the definitions.

What what does the definition say?

Exhortation is the gift of uh the divine strength or ability to strengthen comfort or urge others to action through the written or spoken word and biblical truth.

Man, that is for sure.

Yeah, to urge others to action.

And I think there's something in me that loves to urge people to action based on what um what I see in them.

Yeah.

And there's something that comes alive in me.

So maybe that's exhortation or maybe it's something else.

That's why I don't really uh think it matters so much to be able to put the label on it, but to be able to identify that's that's part of when I come alive.

And very interestingly, that's part of when uh when my wife comes alive too.

Sweet D, she loves, she has the gift, I think, of exhortation.

Part of what that means for us is like if you ever go to a rehearsal dinner and it's time to be able to share some words with you know, either the bride or the groom, and uh some some words of what we see in them, why you love them, why you appreciate them.

Both of us have a sense of like stirring of like we want to say something, not give advice, but be able to call out or or speak out what we see in them.

And and I think that's an evidence of probably not everybody in the room is thinking, uh, man, I just really need to say something.

Yeah.

I think that's probably evidence of uh a gifting that God Spirit put in us.

Yes, absolutely.

And you know, um, when I think about you and your gift rewards, kind of a call to action.

And it's not just a call to action, it's a call to to battle, to, to, to, to the fight, to the path, to faithfulness, to to fight against sin, to fight against darkness, and to plow forward in in the face of difficulty.

And uh the scenes come to mind of, you know, uh riders of Rohan, oohs you have taken.

Now fulfill them all to the Lord and land, you know.

Or dude, I'd store him and battle on a horse with that.

For sure, dude.

Oh yeah, you know, or you know, William Wallace.

I am William Wallace, you know, and I see a whole army of free men and you know, and let's do this, you know, and and that that is that is a gift you have, and and and it's in in the reason it's not like this, okay.

I've got this gift, okay, now okay, this is my moment for a speech.

You feel it yourself, and you so and and it's a part of the heart of God that you feel and you want to draw people in with you, and you just can't not do it.

You you have to rally the truth.

Let's go, let's take this hill.

Yeah.

And that's that's how you know.

That's how you know it's from God.

Yeah.

And so that's uh, I think one of my spiritual gifts.

And what we uh, you know, to to for for the podcast to not just be talking about stuff, but to help help our church and their faith go beyond Sunday.

Yeah, I would ask, if you're listening to this podcast, please at some point today think of someone that you know and message them, either you know, Marco Polo or text or whatever your communication means is and say, hey, you can't.

I was I was thinking about spiritual gifts, and let me tell you what I see in you.

Oh, that's a good idea.

Let me tell you what I see in you.

Just text one person.

Um let me tell you what I see in you.

Can I tell you what I see in you?

Uh call it out.

That will you talk about strengthening faith.

And it you don't have to refer to the list on the wall.

It could be whatever you see in front of you.

Whatever you see that is life-giving in front of you, call that out.

Yes.

And uh you you may affirm things that uh that people never really thought about in themselves.

Uh take um Tim Backelman.

Okay, Tim Backelman, he's our elder chair, uh, great guy.

And uh and I think he has the spiritual gift of encouragement.

And when I told him that, uh, he seemed like, oh, that's a surprise.

And I think it's because he doesn't, he's not just like naturally bent towards giving a bunch of compliments everyone.

Yeah, he does he's not a feel-good person.

Like, he isn't a feel-good person.

But I don't think that's what the spiritual gift of encouragement is.

I think the spiritual gift of encouragement is when you when you speak words of encouragement, people actually feel encouraged.

They've their faith gets strengthened.

Yeah.

So not just kind of naturally bent towards saying a bunch of nice things.

Yeah.

Uh although that's good.

Yeah.

Uh, but I think it's a spiritual gift.

When when he speaks encouragement, people's faith gets strengthened.

And I think that's that's his spiritual gift.

And being able to call it out, I think helps affirm, hey, this is this is where uh people's faith is strengthened in my presence.

So I'm I'm gonna excel still more in it.

One indicator, one sign that someone has a spiritual gift is that they're effective in it in a way that other people are not.

It's easier for them, where for others it's hard.

For me, you know, administration, details, planning, extremely difficult.

For other people, they love it.

You know, they're good at it.

It's easy for them.

And so that's I don't have that gift, others do.

And but other things are easy for me to think about and hard.

So, you know, what do you love?

What are you good at?

What are you already doing?

You know, these are some clues to what what your is your gift, but you could also see that in others.

Where are they effective in ways that other people struggle?

But for them, maybe it's not easy, but it's natural.

Yeah.

All right, so here's what I want to do.

I want to read through this list of spiritual gifts.

And uh I'm not I I have hesitancy about sticking to the list because I don't think we need to be stuck on the list.

However, I want to read them.

And the goal is this that everyone who's listening would be able to thinking, be able to think, okay, uh, is that me or is that someone else I know?

If you hear a spiritual gift and you and you make you think of a a person or name, jot that down and let that be a text that you can send.

Um so you can say, hey, thinking about spiritual gifts.

Let me tell you something I see in you.

All right.

So we're thinking about ourselves, we're thinking about people we know.

All right, the gift of administration.

We'll just kind of go back and forth.

Okay.

Um the gift of administration is the divine strength or ability to organize multiple tasks and groups of people to accomplish these tasks.

Administration.

Apostleship.

The gift of apostleship is the divine strength or ability to pioneer new churches and ministries through planting, overseeing, and training.

That's apostleship.

Apostleship.

Yep.

Okay, I'm gonna try to avoid commentary.

Yep.

Discernment.

The gift of discernment is the divine strength or ability to spiritually identify falsehood, to distinguish between right and wrong motives, and the spiritual forces at work in situations.

Evangelism.

The gift of evangelism is the divine strength or ability to help non-Christians take the necessary steps to becoming a born-again Christian.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Exhortation, the gift or the gift of exhortation is the divine strength or ability to strengthen, comfort, or urge others to action through the written or spoken word and biblical truth.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Faith.

The gift of faith is the divine strength or ability to believe in God for unseen supernatural results in every arena of life.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Giving, the gift of giving is the divine strength or ability to produce wealth and to give by tithes and offerings for the purpose of advancing the kingdom of God on earth.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Healing.

The gift of healing is the divine strength or ability to act as an intermediary in faith, prayer, and by the laying on of hands for the healing of physical, mental, and spiritual sickness.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Helps.

The gift of helps is the divine strength or ability to work in a supportive role for the accomplishment of tasks in Christian ministry with the ability to often see the need before others do.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Hospitality.

Hospitality is a gift of divine strength or ability to create warm, welcoming environments for others in places such as your home, office, or church.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Intercession.

The gift of intercession is the divine strength or ability to stand in the gap in prayer for someone, something, or s or someplace, believing for profound results.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Word of knowledge.

The gift of knowledge is the divine strength or ability to bring truth to a situation by supernatural revelation.

Often accompanied by a word from God.

In other words, knowing things that you otherwise could not know.

Right.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Leadership.

The gift of leadership is the divine strength or ability to influence people at their level while directing and focusing, focusing them on the big picture, vision, or idea.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

The gift of mercy.

Mercy is the divine strength or ability to feel empathy and to care for those who are hurting in any way.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

That's mercy.

Miracles, the gift of miracles is the divine strength or ability to alter the natural outcomes of life in a supernatural way through prayer, faith, and divine direction.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Miracles.

Pastor Shepard.

The gift of Pastor Shepard is the divine strength or ability to care for the personal needs of others by nurturing and mending life issues.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

That's Pastor Shepard.

Prophecy, the gift of prophecy is the divine strength or ability to communicate God's truth and heart in a way that calls people to a right relationship with God.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Prophecy.

Service.

The gift of serving is the divine strength or ability to do small or great tasks in working for the overall good of the body of Christ.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

We got a lot of people with that gift at Sandhurst.

Yeah, we do.

Teaching.

The gift of teaching is the divine strength or ability to study and learn from the scriptures primarily to bring understanding and depth to other Christians.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

Teaching.

Two more.

Tongues and interpretation.

The gift of tongues is the divine strength or ability to pray in some other language, uh, heavenly or otherwise, to encourage your spirit and commune with God.

The gift of tongues is often accompanied by interpretation in in a group setting and should be used appropriately.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

The word of wisdom, this is the last one.

The gift of wisdom is the divine strength or ability to understand and to bring clarity to situations and circumstances, often through applying the truths of scripture in a practical way.

If you just thought of somebody, let them know.

That's wisdom.

So that list uh I thought was really good.

I I wonder if we can Michaela, can we put the link of this list on?

Okay, we'll put that link on so you can uh by the way, yes.

This uh this list was um collated from four biblical lists.

Yes, yeah.

Uh 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12, 1 Peter 4, Ephesians 4.

And so all those four chapters in the scriptures have a list of spiritual gifts.

They're all four different lists.

Some there's some overlap, but this is the compilation of those four lists.

Yep.

So if if we just read that and you're thinking, uh I'm not sure that anything we just read resonates with me and my gift.

Well, two things.

One, that doesn't mean you don't have one of these gifts.

It's it is very true that we don't see the gifting in ourselves that other people see in ourselves, other people see in us.

Yeah.

So um uh that's the first thing.

Second thing is this is not we don't believe this is an exhaustive list of spiritual gifts.

And so the question is not can you put a label on something?

The question is, okay, what does God put in you?

What what can you do in dependence on the Holy Spirit for the strengthening of faith for the building of the body for the common good?

And that's probably your spiritual gift.

But we want to call it out because it does help when you can label it because then you know what God has kind of deposited in you and what you really want to develop.

I don't want to get us off the rails and if this is you can pass on this question or delay it, but um, is there a gift in your mind that like doesn't make the list, but you think, yeah, that's a spiritual gift?

Like that you could kind of give an example of something.

Uh great question.

Yes.

I think worship leading uh there's so when we were on sabbatical, um, this is at least at least one that comes to mind.

I was on sabbatical, this is a long time ago now, um, 2020, and we went to a different church every week, and I was so surprised by the different I I was expecting different sort of music styles in their worship.

What I was profoundly impacted by, and so was my wife, yeah, at some people just seem to have the knack for not just playing music, but for leading people in worship.

And we we all know there's a difference.

There is there's a difference.

For sure.

Um I wondered about one if you could um uh corroborate this or not.

Like I thought the word that came to my mind was creativity.

And it comes out different ways.

I don't mean artist per se or crafter or whatever, but like I think you know the names come to my mind or somebody like a Melissa Parrot who can come in here and create spaces that are are beautiful and appropriate to the purpose that are just like she has this vision had to and ability to do that, or a Sharon Jack or a Hilda Hutto, who are able to take an environment and use some kind of, you know, whether it's decorating the cross inside or outside, or like I said, a room or a space to help it physically serve a greater spiritual purpose.

Uh so that's that's kind of what came to my mind was a creative spirit to envision a way to to to to make things work for our for us.

Yeah, I agree.

I can see that.

So um whatever whatever the case when it comes to gifting, the uh the issue of comparison comes up, and that's why we talked about um the chainsaw versus the handsaw.

And it is true, God gives a variety of gifts and a variety of effects.

Yeah.

He he gives some people a chainsaw and some people a handsaw.

That's not only okay, that's good because one body has many members, and most people would prefer to be an eye, but some people are the ears, but everybody wants to hear.

So uh everybody wants uh at least a body that is able to hear.

And uh the the point that he makes, well, we won't read the verses right now, but uh when he talks in the second half of the chapter about one body, many members, he's going, Man, the the members of the body that we tend to view as less important have he says on these we bestow more abundant honor.

Yeah.

Um so if there's if there's a sense in anyone in our church as we're talking spiritual gifts, like, man, some people got the good ones, and I got the one that it's kind of a bummer.

Um man, the church needs you.

And actually, uh yeah, I said on Sunday that according to Lifeway Research, uh there's the churches have about 42% of their church um serving.

And so I got the percentage of for Sandhurst.

What percentage of those who um attend Sandhurst are also serving?

And uh any guesses on the what the percentage is?

Those who are serving.

Tough to say.

We were talking to Michaela beforehand.

I feel like we're above the average.

So and in fact, I feel like we're above 50%.

I don't think we're to three quarters.

So somewhere between 50 and 75, maybe 60.

All right, 60.

I'll tell you on Sunday.

All right, what?

Tell you on Sunday.

Okay, yeah.

Whatever the percentage is.

Uh and for the people listening, I'm just curious, are you part of the 60?

Yeah.

Are you are you part of the percentage that's that's serving?

Yeah.

Yeah, because it's ultimately it's a health issue for any church and for the body of Christ.

Yeah.

If 42% of your body is working and 58% is not, um, you're not gonna live long.

That's right.

And you're not gonna thrive and you're not gonna take ground.

Um and so I want to say it again, church.

Not only do you have a gift, you have a role in the body.

And so use your gift.

And uh you know, imagine if, you know, I don't know, Brian Patterson is my dentist, you know, and you know, like you said, different saws, like this is a big saw.

Um, but we wouldn't want Brian Patterson to be sad, you know, you go in and he has a microsaw, but it doesn't mean he has any less of a gifting.

In fact, that micro saw is not only uh not less, it's like important that it's a micro saw.

Yeah, and it does things like a chainsaw to your mouth, bro.

You know, it's over, it's over.

And uh where whereas, whereas like we're we all like please, please use that microsaw to take out the bad stuff, right?

And to get the yuck out.

And and so those those different designs and gifts may feel like value judgments from God or from society, but they actually uh uh are are his good gift to us to give us the full variety of of resources that we need to to flourish.

Yeah.

And it's a design.

So, church, let's let's use our gifts.

Um, we can help our church by calling out, speaking out what we see in other people.

And uh serving is a great way to find your gift.

Actually, Michaela, who does all the you know, tech stuff producing stuff for the podcast, thanks.

Yep.

Uh her husband, Dylan, uh, I think is a great example of this.

When when they came to Sandhurst, um, you know, moved here from Greenville, it was funny.

Dylan was like, uh, we came here to serve.

And he literally said, There's just one thing that I'm not interested in at all, and that's students.

He was like, Well, Michaela's great with students, but I'm I'm not a student guy.

Um well, he ends up going into elevate, and it was so obvious both to me and to him, boy's good with students.

Yeah.

He has a gifting with students that he did not know about until he served.

Walk in the door.

Until he walked in the door.

Yeah.

And um, so you you may serve in an area and you think, I didn't think I would like this, and turns out this is not my thing.

Yeah.

Or you might walk in and go, I didn't think I would love this, and I actually do.

Something something in me comes alive when I do this.

You know, and I can give you an ex another example.

You would be surprised how many people enjoy or don't enjoy greeting at church.

You think all your extroverts would love it, and some do.

And you think all the introverts would hate it, and some do.

But there's some greeters who are introverts who they just find that one person and they can kind of stop and have a side conversation and really go deep.

And that is really satisfying in a way that you would not predict for the greeters.

And then there's other extroverts that are just like, man, it's just too crazy.

I can't handle it.

So I just want to I say that kind of to your point.

Like, don't pre-decide that you're not gonna be good at something because you imagine it a certain way and imagine yourself not getting it.

Like you don't know how it's gonna play out.

Jump in there.

And how many of us have played on sports teams where you started as a quarterback and ended up as a fullback or started as a goalkeeper and ended up as a forward?

You just never know until you get on the pitch.

Get on the field and try and play the game, see how you do.

I love it.

The um, yeah.

So get in the game.

Yeah.

Get in the game.

Church, let's get in the game for the health of the church, for the advancing of the gospel, win the loss, build believers, equip workers.

And come alive.

And come alive.

Yeah.

Uh it feels good when you're operating in your area of man, this is I feel like this is if it's drudgery, either you need an attitude adjustment, or it just may not be your gift.

Let's get you moved around, right?

So I'm not saying you know, you just you can help decide.

Yeah.

And I'm glad you said that.

Uh, we're about to close.

But uh when it comes to uh obedience, giftedness is irrelevant.

Okay.

I'm I don't think I'm gifted with I don't I don't think I have the gift of evangelism.

Right.

Guess what I'm still called to do?

Evangelize.

Share the gospel.

That's right.

Um so I I don't I don't want to talk about gifts in a way that's like, well, if it's not your gift, then it's not your thing, it's not your thing, then don't worry about it.

Right if it's an issue of obedience, if God says to do it, my giftedness in that area is irrelevant.

Yeah.

Still obey by the power of his spirit and leave the results to him.

That's right.

And so, yeah, absolutely.

Uh these things, if if your gift is one of these out of 20, then it you're not off the hook for the other 19.

I mean, it it there's there's a there's a way in which we live our lives that we will engage these other things, uh, but we nonetheless we will shine in one area.

Yeah.

So uh I guess if 1 Corinthians 12 brings up three things.

We talked about two, and then the third we're gonna talk about this coming Sunday.

So he says there are a variety of gifts, same spirit, variety of miracles, same Lord, variety of effects, same God.

Okay.

We talked about gifts on Sunday, and we dipped into the variety of effects.

Okay, that was the whole chainsaw versus handsaw thing.

There's different effectives, effectiveness.

Right.

Um this coming Sunday, we're gonna look at that second part.

There are a variety of ministries.

And I think I'm hoping that's gonna be really helpful for our church because there may be uh some of us going, okay, well, uh I'll serve, just not really sure like what sort of opportunities there are for me to get in the game outside of greeting and youth ministry and nursery.

Like, are there are there other things that uh the the body is doing that uh that our church can get on board with?

And the answer is many things.

Some things that we've been doing for a long time, and some things that are a little bit new that I'm excited to roll out on Sunday.

You know that um when somebody says, Hey, let's meet at this restaurant, you're like, Where?

Is it and they tell you, and like, yeah, what?

And you realize you drive by it every day, you've just never seen it.

And you go in and like, wow, this place is really great.

Like, there's a lot of those ministries in our church.

They are here, they are operating.

You just don't know that you don't know it.

Yeah.

So come home.

So come home, baby, and uh, let's let our faith go beyond Sunday.

Adam, will you pray for us to close?

Absolutely.

Father in heaven, we love you.

We thank you that you are one God overall and you unite us in one body worldwide and in right here at Sandhurst.

Thank you for the many different gifts you've given us.

And I do pray for our people that we would hear your voice, we would listen, we would see the scriptures, we would open our eyes, that you would give us eyes to see the people around us and call out these gifts in each other and encourage and fan those flames.

Pray, Lord, that you would give us insight into ourselves and help us to get past our whatever doubts or fears or shame we might have to acknowledge and receive the grace of God and to fan those gifts into flames so that we can literally be uh a body fully at work, fully alive for Christ.

So, Lord, help us to do that.

Give us courage, give us grace, and uh may it be, Lord, by the power of your spirit to the praise of your glory in Jesus' name.

Amen.

Amen.

Let's go.

Yep.