Grow as You Go (Episode 4) - Community

All right, hello everyone.

Joined today by David Laramie and Nathan Worthy.

What's up, guys?

What's going on?

Good to be here.

Properly caffeinated at this point in time.

Let's talk.

I mean, we need to we need to start the podcast with our sponsor.

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Uh, I have an announcement to make.

I haven't I have an announcement.

It's your 25th anniversary.

Come on.

And so today is July the 21st in the year of our Lord.

And you were married July the 21st, 2001.

2001.

To your first wife, Lindette.

First and only wife.

First and only, I like that.

Tell tell us about your family.

Tell us about her.

Tell wait a minute.

Tell me about your wedding day.

Oh, our wedding day.

Oh, it was hot.

It was in Oklahoma.

Muskogee.

Muskogee.

Yeah.

Have you ever heard the song, you know, Okie from Muskogee?

Like we are Okie's from Muskogee.

Yeah.

We were we are original.

Thanks, Merle Haggard.

So and do you like Merle Haggard?

Actually, I've only heard that song.

So Bro, Merle and Whalen and Willie.

Nathan.

Yeah.

Tell me that tell me you like Poncho and Lefty and those.

I mean, Whalen, Willie, Merle, the OG outlets.

There's a lot of legends you're talking about right there.

Is that key far before your time?

I've heard them.

I can't say it's on my typical playlist I listen to, but I respect the game.

Do you know Okie from Muskoke?

I do not.

Do you know it, David?

Oh yeah.

Can you give us just a bar?

Just one bar.

Just one bar.

It literally just says, I wish I was an Okie from Muskoke.

You know, like there it is.

That was it.

He's the worship guy.

Like you do not want me on the stage, like singing.

Well, speaking of the stage singing, you are the new church life pastor at our church.

Welcome.

Thank you.

You're going to be doing a lot of things, and we're so happy.

My wife is so happy that you're here.

And I'm so happy that you're here.

Okay, so back to your wedding day.

You're welcome.

Oh, our wedding day was great.

It was um it was 103 degrees, no lie.

We um had candelabras because that was a thing 25 years ago.

You have candelabras all over the back, but the air conditioner was blowing them out, no lie.

And so we had to turn the air conditioner off.

So our pastor who's marrying us, he had the what I call the pastoral haircut, you know, hair here, totally bald here.

Sure.

And uh you could see him just sweating.

Didn't bother him, but we were like, is he gonna pass out?

But we did the whole wedding without air conditioning.

Because you needed candles.

Very important.

Candle lobber is having people.

I respect that you have to have.

You have to have them lit.

There was like a hundred of them.

We had people light them, like our nieces and stuff.

We they actually had to start lighting them like before anybody even came in, like the set.

So like setting parents, and they're like up there, and I felt so bad because our nieces uh, you know, she's lighting these things with this tall bar, and her, you know, everyone's watching her, and she starts.

It was great.

It was it was fun.

So 25 years, I mean, that's a quarter of a century.

It's quite the accomplishment.

Liz and I just celebrated 25, so we got married the same year.

You and I have been on similar tracks for a long time.

Interesting.

Yes, we have.

Yeah.

Very similar.

We've had sort of the same role in in church life for a really long time.

Before I transitioned into this role, you and I did kind of the same role for a long time.

Tell us a little bit about uh what you've done in your church experience, like what role that you've played, what you're passionate about, all that.

Over the years, um, I've done quite a few roles.

I was only a youth pastor for about two years and immediately just went into like associate roles.

And so I've done everything from Christian education to group life to assimilation to you know connecting people.

I've done everything from you know running lead pastor schedules and projects, building projects.

I mean, probably a similar list to you.

It's just like I've I've done everything I think you can do except the finances side of things and and full-on kids ministry.

Although I've helped with kids, I I never actually spent my uh portion of my time everything else I feel like I've been uh have had a hand in over the years.

You you're Jack of all trades, master of some.

It's kind of like the like the drawer in the kitchen to where everything goes.

And if you're like if you're looking for something, you're like, oh, you should ask David, right?

Because he's probably got his hands uh hands in all of that.

And so it was December of 2025, uh, whenever I was driving down the road and I was newly appointed, newly elected uh lead pastor, and I knew that I was gonna need somebody to assume the responsibilities that I was doing in the church.

Um I don't say this to boast, it it was an important role to play uh in the life of a church because you're helping people connect, you're helping people grow, you're building systems, you're troubleshooting problems, you're creating opportunities.

Um, it really is like kind of a Swiss army knife.

And I thought I I can't go into the future that God is calling me into over the long term carrying these responsibilities.

Like, God, I need somebody that is like anointed and called to help the church connect and grow.

And so I'm driving home from this meeting, I've got an hour drive, and the thought comes into my mind I get, gosh, I did not expect to get emotional this morning.

I promise there's zero alcohol in this in this union reserve.

I just realized I'm sitting here with two men of God that like I know that the Lord has brought into this story.

And so um, so I pick up the phone as you come to my mind, like, why don't you call David Laramie?

And the conversation I'm having is my mind, in my mind is like, because I could never convince David Laramie to move from Oklahoma to come here.

And I've known you from a distance for the better part of over 15 years.

A consultant friend of ours connected us and and told me, you need to meet David.

He's like best in the industry.

And I'm like, okay, I'll I'll learn from this guy.

So I we would text and you have me on your podcast and various things, and we've but we had never really met in person uh actually until you moved here.

Right.

Uh right before you moved here.

But at any rate, I'm driving down the road.

The thought comes to my mind, I call you, and you're like, it's so funny that you should call me.

Do you remember that?

Oh, yeah.

Why tell him tell the story about that?

Why was that?

Well, I was it was so when he called me, I was in kind of a unique season because I was, as you get older, and you know, you start reflecting on like backwards.

I'm not living like where can I go?

Now I'm living like where do I make my most significant gift to the to the church of life while I'm still older but still healthy and strong and can and move forward.

And so I was reading Tommy's book on significance.

Yeah.

And so The Ache for Meaning.

The Ache for Meaning.

And it talks all about, you know, what that looks for, like, you know, how Jesus was doing, you know, and how he taught that.

And I'm like reading this book when he and I and I'm like, are you kidding me?

Like out of all the places, and I thought, okay, I never thought I would move.

But the reading that book, having you call me, and having the some type of leading of the Holy Spirit to say, what would the next 25 years look like?

Yeah.

And I and I said that, you know, I was like, and so when I was talking to Tommy, I never told him that, but he said, I'm looking at my next 25 years as a lead pastor, what significance does that look like?

What is it gonna be like?

And I'm thinking, he's thinking the same things I'm thinking, like, God, what are you up to?

Yeah, it was amazing.

Yeah.

So we got off the phone and um we talked for I don't know how long we got off the phone.

And I just um I think I said to you something like, Well, why don't you talk to your wife and pray about it?

And you talked to Lynette, and uh, I think Lynette prayed about it, and I think that her immediate answer was something like, There's no way in the world we're moving to Florida or something like that.

Yeah, we she was good.

Like she she we liked, she liked where we were at.

And I mean, she but the one thing she always said, and it's been this way for 25 years, she said, If God takes you anywhere, I will always follow you.

Come on.

Like I'll like you're the minister.

I knew that when we got married.

She her mom and dad were leaders in the church and deacons, like she got it.

And and so she said, I'm open to that, but I could tell she was like, We're too old to move, we're too this to move, we're too established.

Keep saying you're old, like you're not you're not that old.

Like relatively speaking, you know, with the advent of like you know, modern science and everything.

You could live to 250 years in the words of Ricky Brahman.

I guess I say that because we sometimes I I reflect on the fact that you know I have like metal in my hips and my arms.

How many surgeries?

So I had 11 surgeries over 13 years.

11 over 13.

That's a pretty good, that's a high batting average whenever it comes to surgeries per year.

That's got to be north of 800.

You're batting north of 800.

You're one of the best in the world.

Surgeries per year.

There are hospitals that should dedicate a room.

Seriously.

Just this is the Laramie room.

The David Laramie room.

Right here.

Okay.

So uh eventually I say, you know what, man?

Uh something like um you're feeling stirred.

You're like, maybe God's in this.

Uh I was like, why don't you and Lynette come down here and let her pray with her feet in the sand?

Yeah, see, see, that was that was a pro move.

You're welcome.

It was it was a pro move because the minute we I think we pulled over probably illegally somewhere because they were watching us, and we snuck on the beach between two beautiful houses that were they were reconstructing, so nobody lived in them.

And so we went down on the beach and me and Tommy start talking.

He's like, You want to come, don't you?

I was like, Oh, I I I feel a stirring, and I look over, and Lynette has taken her shoes off.

Gone.

She, I mean, gone.

So her pants or her jeans are her pants are on, rolled up.

Like rolled up because this is January.

Like, so she's like rolled up and she's in the water.

And I was like, Yeah, I think we're moving.

I think we're moving.

That's what I think that was the moment I knew that we had sealed the deal.

So you left um the assembly at Broken Arrow of an amazing church, a stalwart church in our denomination.

It's uh the main campus is probably 2200, something like that.

It's a it's incredible.

Yeah, we have two campus cities and have a great school.

Uh our lead pastor Ron Woods has been a mentor of mine for many years.

And you know, it was a good place to be.

I worked alongside him just like I'm gonna be doing with you.

And it was it was a good place to be, but it was also a 10-year period where I think God put me with Ron Woods so that he could teach me and lead me.

And there's another pastor there, Barry Simon, that those guys would.

I think that 10-year period was a preparation period for a significant run of ministry, and I and I believe that's here.

I believe that.

And nothing is wasted.

So you and I, once again, we're on similar tracks because I was in North Carolina for a decade before I came back here.

And some people would say, you know, God was preparing you for what's going to happen here.

And that that's both true, but it's true in the sense that God doesn't just waste a decade of your life in order to get you ready for something else.

Like nothing, everything belongs, nothing is wasted.

And I wouldn't be prepared to do what I am right now if I hadn't gone through um that experience.

So we're just we're thrilled that you're here, man.

And uh hope you have an amazing 25th uh anniversary.

Yeah, and so um, we're gonna have to get you a table somewhere out on 30A for tonight and uh and make that happen.

We're calling it in, Nathan.

Yeah, there's a couple goods.

It just happens in to your wisdom.

I will lean.

Yeah.

Get over to Bud and Alley's or something like that.

Little Bud and Alley's action.

That could be cool.

Okay, man.

You guys are so copying code.

You have three girls, they're here with you.

You uh you recently moved into your house, uh, you haven't figured out where your sock drawer is yet.

You're here.

Here's why I'm excited about you being here.

And then I want to talk a little bit about a theology of Christian community.

Um, I'm excited because your first and foremost passion is about people and people development.

You're one of the most relational people that I've ever met.

Somebody described you as a golden retriever.

They're like, Pastor Dave is a golden retriever.

He just runs up to everybody, and you know, I was like, the first time I met him, he even licked me.

You know, I was like, that's strange.

And I just we just sort of unusual.

Unusual.

Um, but uh your passion for people is just is second to none, man.

So um you're going to be one of one of your most important assignments here right out of the gate is in the area of group life and helping build Christian community.

So what are you already sensing?

I mean, you've been at the church 15 minutes, but what are you sensing and what does God put in your heart uh about the importance of Christian community?

I'm not just talking about like just joining a small group, like we're not here to promote programs.

Like, what are you sensing already about what God's doing in the life of the church and why does Christian community matter in the formation of a disciple?

Yeah, yeah, when it comes to spiritual formation, you know, the best way to put it, I I did not make this up.

Henry Nowen created this, but he said there's three things that you have to do when you're spiritually forming in Christ.

And the first thing, so there there's three things.

The first is silence.

You have to have your own time with God, you have to have your own moments with the Lord by yourself, but then you have to have community and service.

It takes all three of those, and two-thirds of those are community.

So I have to have my moments with the Lord, but the other two, I am growing with other people as I share, and I'm growing with other people as I serve.

So we're studying the Bible together, but then we're living the Bible together.

And what's important about that is in my silent times when the Lord is speaking to me, how do I know it's the Lord?

Well, I go into community and say, this is what the Lord's doing.

This is what the Lord's saying to me.

Uh, what do you all think?

And that's how we form spiritually.

And so we need those that are ahead of us and we need those that are behind us so that all of us are forming our lives together.

And at the church, you can see, I mean, every Sunday, more people, new people.

As a church grows bigger, you know, it sounds cliche, but as a church grows bigger, you have to grow smaller.

And the only way to do that is to have people have pockets where they fit in with each other, you know, whatever that may look like, whatever they, whether they like the same things or whether they want to study the same book of the Bible, however that forms, you have to have pockets of people doing life together where it's not just the larger service, but also, okay, I'm doing this together, as well as serving.

Serving is an important role.

Uh, so we can't just be in community and know the Lord ourselves.

If we're not serving, we're not gonna fully form spiritually.

So, Nathan, uh in a former life, you were, I think, also in some way in the uh in the small group space.

Were you not?

Absolutely.

Yeah, I I and it's funny, actually.

I like hearing what you shared about about Pastor David that we have some similar paths in the sense of there's there's been times where the Swiss Army knife is how I had a pastor describe it and say, You're you're a Swiss Army knife for us.

It's like, you know, um so I had a chance to be hands in different ministries, teams, small groups, yeah, everything in between.

I'm curious what what you guys would respond to this.

And just so people know, we don't come into here, and it's probably obvious to them, we don't come into here with a list of questions and everything else.

We sort of just walk into the room, fire up the mics, and here we are.

Uh we have an idea of what we want to talk about, but one of the things you hear as a pastor that really just rips your heart out is I just can't connect here.

Yeah.

You ever heard that?

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

What when when you hear somebody say that, uh, what comes up for you?

Like what does that do inside of you?

And then how how might you respond to a person who says something like that?

I just can't connect here.

Yeah.

I think I think so often, you know, we can we we as people, anybody, can kind of get stuck in our own heads a little bit uh in the sense of, you know, um diff different things that we've walked through in life, different things that we've experienced begin to shape our perspective on things in life.

And one of those things I think when we're talking about church is church.

So often people have different perspectives on what church is, what's happening in a church, what a church is all about, just the church in general.

Yeah.

And uh and this this is even for this can be for people who maybe are you don't aren't saved or aren't aren't following Jesus, but even people who are, who do love Jesus and and who you know read their word and are pursuing a relationship, but the the the church in particular, and that can be true about other places in their lives as well, but I feel like I've seen people who kind of come in and there's like this perspective and that that maybe like I don't know how, like you said, I don't even know where I where to begin.

You know, I think for us guys who have been in church our whole lives and worked in church for many years, like we kind of see the way that a church can be structured to help people get involved and to help people connect and to serve and the different things that you're sharing.

And so I I just feel like just helping kind of meet people where they're at.

And I we we always talk about like next steps.

Yeah, yeah.

I think for people, especially in church, I think in life in general, so often we look at our lives and what's ahead and try to figure out how to get there and we try to make huge leaps.

But really, life is all about next steps.

Yeah, life is all about like what's the next thing.

And I think for people to get connected uh and and and growing and connecting and serving in a in a church family and a church body, it's it's just helping people find what their next step is.

And I think for some that that does it seems so like I don't even know what that is, but it usually is simpler than it may seem.

It's just finding out what that thing is, like you were sharing.

What's that thing that they have an interest in, what's that thing that that they already have a passion for, and connecting and realizing that you can connect really all of those things back to doing life and community in in church and in the body of Christ together.

There was a study that came out of Willow Creek um probably 15 years ago.

Willow Creek was one of the uh the leading churches in the country, one of the larger churches in the country, well over thirty thousand people at one point in time.

And they partnered with a man who did like consumer uh behavior uh studies for Nike to figure out why people purchased uh certain shoes and didn't purchase other shoes.

So they could figure out who was purchasing what shoe.

But the question behind that was why is a person purchasing the shoe?

So this was this man's job.

He happened to be somehow affiliated with that church, and I if memory serves me correctly, he actually partnered with the church to help the church figure out why certain people grew and why other people did not continue to grow.

So they they could figure out who and how many were doing certain things, but it was more difficult to map like the growth of the human soul.

That's a tough thing to measure.

It's more of an implicit study.

Um so what they did is they they looked at the behaviors, the attitudes and beliefs, the practices alone, and the practices together of people who uh were at various stages in their Christian formation.

And I think that they mapped that over three phases, kind of like beginner, intermediate, and advanced.

And so what they realized was that the behaviors, the beliefs and attitudes, the practices and loan and practices together that were catalytic in helping someone grow from one phase of spiritual maturity to another altered as the person moved further along that spectrum toward Christian maturity.

Interesting.

So what I mean by that is, and what they discovered through that was the thing that got me to here is not the thing that got me to there.

And it's it's not that they left them alone.

It's not that, um, what I should say is it's not that when they move from one thing to the next, they drop behaviors, it's just that those behaviors were no longer catalytic and that there were also inhibitive behaviors, uh, attitudes, beliefs, practices as well.

So that's a long way of getting to this point.

Early on in a disciple's Christian formation, the church providing a small group for that disciple is is catalytic in that disciple's Christian formation.

Yeah.

So when we say Christian formation, uh I use the definition given by Robert Mahollan.

Christian formation or spiritual formation is the process of being formed into the image of Christ for the sake of others.

So that's the that's what we're measured against.

We're being continually formed into the image of Christ for the sake of others.

So early on in a disciple's journey, it's very important that the church provide a small group for that person.

That's catalytic.

As that person matures, it's not that person that that person stops being part of a small group.

It's that the church providing a small group for that person is no longer catalytic and often no longer needed for that person.

What you see is that person at some point starts to form his or her own small group, sometime with the church, sometimes with the church.

They form it, they lead it, whatever.

Sometimes it's the group of men and women that you've collected along the way to where when I started out and needed the church to do that for me as I moved along.

But one of the things when I hear people say, I just can't connect here, it's actually usually it comes from a place of well-intended church griping.

It's like the church isn't doing for me the thing that I want the church to do.

And you look around, you're like, we've got 30, 40 plus small groups.

There's plenty of small groups.

One, you have to show yourself friendly in order to find friends.

But second, maybe it's time for you to move from being the person that consumes the group that the church gives you, and you become the person that creates the group for other people.

And you could do that with with various other practices and beliefs and and so on and so forth.

That what got me here is not what's going um to get me there.

So I love your I love your now in quote.

And so it's it's silence and then community, community and then service.

Yeah, silence.

Yes, to I am now providing, participating.

So there's a book, and I think this is in Dittrick Bonhoeffer's book, Life Together.

I'm not sure.

If you haven't read, first of all, can we just pull you out for just a second?

How many books do you read a year, David?

Well, average lately, uh the average is 80.

80 books a year.

Which makes it all the more uh statistically, how would you say it?

Like statistically important that of all of the books, how many unread books do you have on your shelf?

Maybe a third of them?

A third of them are unread.

So you you get into it.

Sounds like you have an addiction.

I uh well, yeah.

Some of them women have like they say they get shoes or purses or dresses.

I collect books.

You collect pieces.

Like I have one pair of shoes, I have three thousand books.

Like I have issues.

Now, Pastor Tommy, did you walk by his office yesterday?

I said, what in the world are all these boxes?

I walk I kind of look books, books, books, books.

So 80 a year is just a few more than my average.

I come over to the house, I have the rest of the boxes.

That's a third.

I think the other third is too thousands.

Okay, so you're just the fact that the fact that you were reading the book that I wrote when I called you, I don't know what the odds are.

Somebody, one of our listeners can figure out what the odds are.

There is a book.

If you haven't read it, get it on the list.

It's called Life Together by Dittricht Bonhoeffer, the uh German pastor theologian uh during World War II.

He was actually uh hanged the day before um uh was it Finkenwall, I forget which camp that he was at.

The day before his particular camp was liberated, he was arrested because he wouldn't um uh he wouldn't play along with the state, essentially.

And so he was a he was a critic of the Nazi regime and he um discipled uh these believers in this quote unquote underground seminary.

And this book is written, as I recall, to these young theologians, these seminarians that he's training.

And one of the things he says to them is you have to give up your wish dream of uh what the church is supposed to be.

Yeah.

So the wish dream is what I think the church is supposed to be.

And he says, as pastors, you have to love the church you have, not the church that you wish that you had.

Oh man, that's good first.

But then he talks about, and maybe it's in this book, I can't remember.

He talks about the day alone and then the day together.

And he says, essentially, you you can't trust anybody in community who can't spend a day alone, and you can't trust anybody who spends a day alone who can't be in community.

Yeah.

So we go to the quote unquote day alone.

Now, who who has time for a day alone in in our world, right?

An hour, the hour alone, the half hour alone, the whatever that I spend time with the Lord alone, so that I can show up with the Lord into community.

Yeah.

And I spend time in community to know what I can bring before the Lord in prayer.

Yeah.

What does that bring up for you guys?

What do you what do you think?

I mean, it it's it's Bonhoeffer, so it's gonna be a good thought.

It sounds a little bit like the progression you were talking about with Nowen.

Yeah.

The silence, the community.

Well, the true, I love the fact that you know, I think that some people are like community animals.

Uh, we have ever like we've all been in churches where they're there that person's in like two or three small groups.

Yeah, they're gym rats for small groups.

They they just they're like everywhere.

And but you you're like, okay, like how much time do you spend, you know, with the Lord, like just you so that you can have something to pour out in the community.

Yeah.

And then there's other people that are almost countercultural.

We've taught the world has taught people it's okay to be the victim and be alone.

It's okay to talk about loneliness, that's the way the world is.

Um, you know, you don't need community, but you like desire it.

So we've kind of moved the the way the way it's structured is like it used to be community was easy and normal in our world kind of changed, you know, as we got like you've heard people say it, we got air conditioners, we got garage door openers, you don't have to talk to your neighbor.

You know, it's changed.

So the church has literally become countercultural in saying you have to be a part of another group.

You can't be so selfish that it's only you and the Lord, and and yet you can't be so community driven that you don't actually hear from the Lord yourself.

Yeah, like I can't live off of Nathan's word from the Lord.

I gotta have a word from the Lord, but I need Nathan to go, is this a word from the Lord?

And he's like, I'm I'm hearing you.

And maybe think about this, or like, man, I don't know.

Like that doesn't sound like what I read in in the word.

Yeah.

And so that's why you have to have it has to be both.

Like it, it can't be either or.

And I think that's where you know sometimes uh a church could get it wrong, is like where it's it's all you know, community or it's all this or it's all prayer, and you don't see the health there.

They could grow, it doesn't mean they're healthy.

You want a health is is both.

Yes.

Yeah.

I think about you know, it's like we're called to be vessels that are poured into and then pour out.

A little funnel, man.

Yeah, that that's how you live a healthy life, is is you you you are you receive and then you pour it back out.

That's good.

I think about like you're talking about that that day alone, that that day together.

Like when you're when we spend time with the Lord alone, like we start to like learn who we really, who we are, like and and what we're called to.

We learn like our why.

And then once you once you're growing in that and in the word and and the Lord's depositing things in us, it's like, and we're talking about, okay, I know what God wants to do in me and through me.

And then then you got to go out and do it.

Yeah, you can't just stock stockpile that and then do nothing with it, but you also can't just be out there just running and gunning and like want to do all these things, and then you end up doing it from a dry place because you don't have that time.

That that's been something for me in my life.

You know, I'm like massive extrovert.

I want to just be out and around.

I have a hard time sometimes quiet quieting my mind and slowing down and sitting down and I don't read 80 books a year because uh I I it's hard for me to slow down even to, you know, to even read it all sometimes.

And so I've had to learn like if I just try to go and just do it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna run out because I'm gonna be trying to, you know, do things like an and it empty.

And so it's it's that well, we're called to be vessels, you know, pour in, poured into, and then pour out.

Yeah.

You know, I I think that we um whenever whenever they first hired me here some eight years ago now, I think my title was something like Pastor for Christian Spiritual Formation and Community Life.

That's what it was, spiritual formation and community life.

And nobody meant this, okay?

Nobody meant anything by that title that that wasn't anything other than just amazing.

But my my immediate reaction to it was one, it's a really long title.

Uh yeah, it's a mouthful.

Yeah.

And my former boss uh in university world, he was so right.

He said, the longer the title, the less important the job.

He said, Let me prove it to you.

President.

Yeah.

One word.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One.

Yeah.

And my title had like nine.

Assistant to the regional manager.

Too many words in there.

That's why it's the mighty important manager.

Assistant to the regional manager.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Uh where was I with that?

I was, oh, I was talking about spiritual formation and community life.

And I just uh I just kind of changed my title.

I don't remember if I asked anybody.

Um, but I forget what I actually changed it to, but whatever I changed it to um was was a very simple way of saying there is no community without spiritual formation, and there is no spiritual formation without community.

And so life together, the the lived experience of a Christian has to be done with as you said earlier, David, I think you're exactly right.

And I just want to I want to turn it one more layer with people who are behind you, people who are ahead of you, and then people who are beside you.

And so we need people that are pouring into us, they're challenging us.

We need people that we can pour into and we can challenge.

And that's what I often say to the people who say, I just can't connect.

I say, Why don't you become the connector?

Come on.

Why don't you become the thing that you hope other pre other people would be for you?

And then you need people who are right there with you uh as well.

And that's the type of church that we want to be.

We want to be a learning community.

We want to be a community that we're growing, we're thinking.

We, you know, sometimes churches in the more um experiential uh uh sector of things, if you will, sometimes use the label Pentecostal or charismatic.

Um they get they get known as kind of all heart and no head.

Yeah, um, all emotion, no mind.

And that's not who we are at all.

Um we want to be a people where we can think deeply and we can encounter God personally so so that we can grow together.

And and I want to be able to walk out of a service like we had on Sunday morning and to go to my small group and to say, What what happened?

Like God was in the room.

What did you experience?

Let's get in the word together.

I actually had somebody ask me that after the second service.

A very genuine um young adult came up to me and said, What's what's going on here?

Yeah, what's going on here?

What what happened?

And I just said, Oh, like, oh dude, it was a moment.

Yeah, yeah, it was a moment.

Um but he was just so genuine.

He's like, I just I just want to be a part of this, whatever it is.

It just feels and people want to be a part of something that matters.

And I think there's nothing better in the body of Christ than just being with other Jesus-centered disciples.

And that's why I wanted that's one of the reasons I wanted you guys here just to join the team is before you're before you're an employee, before you're any of that, you're just men who love the Lord and you love other people.

And so um, at any rate, I'm excited about the days ahead.

I'm excited about disciples growing strong.

I'm excited about encountering God, experiencing belonging and making a difference.

Come on.

And I just I want to go one more layer and then we'll wrap up.

How about this?

I I was listening to somebody the other day.

It was a marketing consultant, um, and he predicted a couple of like he he predicted the proliferation and the success of the um moving just from like online shopping to like real-time live stream broadcast online shopping, like platforms like whatnot and other platforms to where it's not just digital shopping now, it's like digital buying in the moment where there's you know, like you're selling to the person you're buying.

Yeah, there's comments happening, and then those he he predicted all of that, and we're seeing that wave is going to continue.

Um, but he said, I I think that the thing that's on the other side of this is just the analog experience.

He said, I think analog is going to become like the premium in our culture of what people are going to pay like incredible money for.

I think I heard Nate Bargatsky on uh, if I say his name correct, on a podcast with Theo Vaughn the other day.

And Nate was one of the, I think Nate was talking about these Netflix houses.

Have you guys seen this?

No, no.

To where they and I I probably have the details wrong, but you in a Netflix house, you would you you would create an experience that's an immersive experience to where people go into a house and the house is themed, it's skinned, it's interactive, like a movie.

So for example, you could go into a Stranger Things Netflix house.

Now, again, I may have the particulars on people can Google on their own time.

I think Wired magazine has an article about that.

Yeah.

So I mean, yeah, I'm following you.

So the experience is I'm walking into the Netflix house.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, it my mind immediately goes to like the tabernacle and the and the temple, which was a very analog experience.

Every, every every piece of yarn, the metal was fashioned a certain way.

God had his own designer cologne, like incense, you know, that the Bezalel crafted from these particular spices that nobody else could use for their own purposes.

God had like a fragrance.

You have all of the God's a very tactile analog.

And it's not that the digital world is antithetical to analog.

It's just that digital, digital should supplement the analog experience.

When I say analog, I'm talking about like like things I can touch and hold and be a part of.

Yeah.

And so I think, I think what what I want, and I think what my friends want more than anything, is they want actual analog experiences that they can they can touch, they can feel, they can cry with, they can laugh with, they can have a beverage with, they can go play golf with, they can study the word with.

And people can get the best teaching in the world on their phones.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

But they can't get experience it and interact with the analog.

I think about um one of the biggest things right now, obviously, if you're following any kind of is you know the Odyssey.

The movie Christopher Nolan.

I want to go see it.

I've heard it's no spoilers.

No spoilers.

I won't give you spoilers if anybody listening.

But um, you know, my my younger brother's birthday.

It's birthday this weekend.

Yeah, yeah, people should know that the book's been out for a lot a lot.

It has a happy ending.

Oh, that's like you know, Christopher Nolan is getting a lot of praise right now for that for the way he makes movies always, but this movie in particular, and just how much he he just he ditches CGI and and oh yeah, goes the extra mile to do things in an analog way.

What?

Like what do they do?

I mean, like he's not like the the the big the big giant.

Um it looks you could very easily just okay and just CGI, this massive giant, you know, the cyclops uh in the scenes like no no they they they made like this massive puppet, like uh animatronic.

And so that way the actors actually had to interact with now.

Obviously, they have to do some effects to clean some things up, but there's multiple scenes to hurt.

There was like a whirlpool where they had guys on Getskis making the whirlpool.

Yeah, and it's it's like it's wild.

And there's some other scenes too that again, I don't want to no spoilers for people, but that are unbelievable in watching the actors talk about it, about how they were watching this, and they were like, We've always been a part of movies where they just they just go the easy route and just use nowadays the CGI and uh they use the digital effects and just completely put something about not just for like the movie making, but for the actors having to actually engage, like you're saying, with these things.

They can't just it's not just a green screen laid in front of them that they're kind of pretending and then they're gonna put something after.

They're actually having to do these things.

It's like you're saying that kind of stuff is being like praised or really focused on because people are hungry for that in other areas, not just in their movie watching experience, but in their their church going and in their their their day-to-day interactions with people, it's like coming back around to the invitation like as you're talking about these actors who are having to interface with Cyclops or whatever it was, yeah, and they want to give them something tactile, yeah, the the jet skiers creating the world.

Yeah, what do you think is like the I I'll let me rather ask a question, I'll make a comment and let you respond to it.

What I see is the seduction for spiritual leaders, including pastors, to become increasingly removed from the actual tactile world.

Right, right.

The the laying on of hands, the holding of hands at bedsides, you know, for hospital beds, the and the the moving away into the screens.

Yep.

We've we've seen screens just come absolutely everywhere in in churches.

There's more screens in churches than there are anywhere anywhere else in the world these days, which is not all bad.

But is there an invitation for the church as the body of Christ in this and for spiritual leaders to resist, to res to at least question whether or not the digital experience is the immediate way to go in lieu of something that is slower and less efficient and sloppier and smellier and more annoying and et cetera.

Have I said anything?

Is there a lot of people?

I think so.

David, I want to hear your thoughts, but it's real quick because I think what's happened is all of this extra stuff, the tech, the tech, the screens, the digital age.

I think people are what has happened, even though those things can be used as a tool, and you can still maintain the the heart and the reason and the realness of why you do what you do and whatever it is, you can still maintain that.

But what it starts to blur, and I think people are just hungry for the real thing.

People are hungry for the real genuine thing.

And I and I I just think that it snowballed so much to the point that even though you can have a church that uses screens and still be doing the real thing in a genuine way, but for it just begins to blur more and more the more that there's just that digital noise.

And and I think people are just hungry for the real thing.

Yeah.

And I and I so I I believe there is something to be said about you know, maybe maybe dialing it back is gonna help people be able to come in to a space without the noise and the and the visual noise and and that the the the what's really important, what really is at the the core of what something is trying to do and is the heart behind something will be able to be seen a little bit easier.

And so Yeah, and how do you know like you're talking about the real thing?

How do you know something's real?

The closer you are, you know if it's real or fake.

Come on.

The closer you get to something, like when you're touching something, you know it's real.

Very good, man.

The further away you are, you you don't know.

And I I'll say it like this.

I think my wife Lynette, she she said it best because when we say the word Pentecostal, it can mean different things to different people.

But when my wife says she when she's talking about our church, she she said, Man, uh it's so refreshing that it's Pentecostal.

What she's meaning is there's a altar place, there's a physical place where we tell people to come meet the Lord.

The I was at the altar with my with my baby girl on in second service, and you know, Tommy, you pray, you laid hands on me.

We were laying hands, I laid hands on people, I laid hands on my daughter.

You know, there there's a there's a touching and and uh tactile in this.

I mean, even even in the the real world, um, you know, like outside of the church in the in the in the world, there there's a great book called Revenge of the Analog.

Incredible book.

The the guy spends an entire chapter talking about why people go to record stores.

You know, and and at Seaside, I love you know, Sundog books, and above it, there's this square.

Yeah.

And you and you go into this record store and people are dressed the same and they're like talking the same lingo, and they're like, what's this new vinyl and what's this new thing?

And they're for they're figuring out the world's figuring out forming communities, but they're they're close.

You like you have to know, like, hey, how do you how do I dress?

How do what do I buy?

What do I play?

Yes, yeah.

And so, I mean, the the world is starting to figure that out, and it's like, man, the church has the best place in the world for that to be having.

Yep.

So I'm we can have that.

Can I can I let a little secret out, you guys?

Let it out.

Let it out.

This just stays between us.

I can't wait.

And everybody's listening.

I don't want to think about that right now.

I just want to share something.

Yes, here.

Um, Pokemon has made a comeback.

Yep.

Okay.

Yeah, it has.

Massive.

So it's massive.

Like it's an industry.

Like people have full-time jobs like investing in and selling Pokemon cards.

And if you want to get Pokemon cards right now, for those of you who don't know what Pokemon cards are, they're like baseball cards with characters on it.

The difference is none of the characters are going to like have Tommy John surgery.

And so you can't have a dad a bad day as Pikachu and then end up on the injured list.

Every day's a good day for Pikachu.

Yeah.

Every day's a good day whenever you're a cartoon.

Yeah.

So there now there is a digital realm you know in which people play.

I I can't figure out how to play Pokemon.

I love the art.

I love the I love seeing my kids, you know.

Like Pokemon and those types of things.

But here's here's what I've realized about Pokemon.

If you want to get like cards at retail, you have to show up on the day where the vendor delivers the cards to the store.

Yeah.

And so if for example, let's just say, for example, uh the big box store A, you know, they get their deliveries on Wednesday at 7 a.m.

Well, people start to figure that out.

And here's here's what I've noticed.

I wanted to get some for my kids the other day, right?

And I was off and I thought, you know what?

I'm I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna get some.

I'm not going to, you know, just buy the things at full price.

I'm gonna go get some of those things, right?

Nice.

And so I show up and there are chairs, like camp chairs.

And then that's that's just that's two hours early, right?

And then by the time the that the store actually opens, there's 50 people.

I'm not exaggerating, 50 people outside of the local target that are waiting to get inside to get these get these cards.

Now, here's what's fascinating to me these people have a common language and a common passion.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I'm sitting there listening to them speak in unknown tongues about Raichu and the Char Lizard and the GXEX, Mega Evolve, the next tournament that they're all going to.

Yeah, me too.

Yeah, it's wild.

And and the sense of community that these people have, that they're texting each other, hey, we've got a big drop coming out on this day and that.

The reason I bring that up is I think if if people can find something that they're passionate about, and if people can find other people who are passionate about that same thing, you don't have to work too hard to get people to show up to a small group.

That's so good.

You just have to say there's a place for you to come and be passionate about Jesus with other people.

Yes.

That's so good.

People want to be a part of that.

That's so good.

If they'll get there two hours early for Pikachu, if the presence of God shows up in a place, they'll get there two hours early for that.

Yeah, and they'll stay 30 minutes late.

That's so good.

And then they'll figure out how to get together throughout the week.

People want the real, and the church has substituted the the projection of an image of Jesus for the actual Jesus that wants to come and be in the room with us.

Come on.

We don't have to market him, we don't have to sell him, we don't have to manufacture him.

We have to spend time alone with him so that we can be the presence of Christ with other people.

That'll preach.

Yeah.

I think that'll preach.

Let's just let's just give an altar call right now.

That's good.

Yeah, yeah.

Come on.

That's so good.

Let's have church right here.

Every head bowed, every eye closed, unless you're driving.

Come on.

Man, that's that's so great that you're like you're talking about Pokemon.

I was in South Africa.

So South Africa.

You just came to us from Africa.

Yes.

And we're in the airport in Johannesburg.

Yeah.

And I'm getting a soda out of a machine, and the machine next to it's a Pokemon machine.

Oh man.

Just a Pokemon machine.

And a lady is ordering something, and you know, I'm just kind of curious.

I'm like, whoa, okay.

Like, look, what's I was like, what are you getting?

And she goes, Oh, I I live blah, blah, blah, and I'm traveling, but you can't buy this particular Pokemon and this thing, and this is great.

And I'm like, and it was 50 bucks.

I was like, it's$50 is a good thing.

Well, that's the airport price.

But you see, that's the water is$19.

She could take those and then sell.

But like you said, there was to be able to sell Pokemon to fund your Pokemon.

I had never owned a Pokemon card in my life.

I felt like I needed it.

And I'm like, I want our church to be like that.

So passionate about it.

I need a mocha card.

I want people to come in and be like, whoa, who's Jesus?

I want Jesus.

Like, I want the Paul card.

You know, I want I want the discipleship card.

I want the bad card.

We'll write badges now.

People will want what we have when it's real to us.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so let's just spend time with Jesus alone so we can spend time with Jesus together.

Amen.

So I guess one of my one of my encouragements to people who are listening is if you haven't found what you're looking for, become what you're looking for to somebody else because there's somebody else who still hasn't found what they're looking for either.

Absolutely.

Be the change you seek in your own life and watch what God does.

Pastor David, why don't you pray us out, my man?

Pray for everybody that's listening this morning, evening, night, wherever they are, whenever they are.

Lord Jesus, I know that people are going to listen to this at different times.

Some are going to drive in a car, some as they're laying down in bed, some of them as they're working out.

But Lord, no matter where they are, you are there.

Come on.

God, help us to have that awareness that your presence is there.

And God, really, really help people to have moments with you so that when they're with others, those moments are an overflow out of their heart into the lives of others, and then to replenish themselves and continue the cycle.

Just like Pastor Tommy said, all of us are at different places on the journey, but none of us have arrived.

Even, even as Henry Nowen said, he asked his question.

He'd been a believer for 70 years of his life, and he asked the question, Am I close to Jesus today as I need to be?

And may I we be like that?

May we be at a certain place in our life and go, you know what?

I've known Jesus for 25 years.

I've known him for 30 years.

I've known him for five minutes.

But am I where Jesus wants me to be today?

And Lord, that can give us a great direction.

So Lord Jesus, bless those that hear this, God, but let that blessing move them to action.

Because the world of the generous always gets larger and larger.

So make our hearts full of gratitude and generosity.

And we pray it in the strong name of Jesus.

Amen.

Amen.

Bless you, friends.

Talk soon.

Thank you for joining Grow As You Go.

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