Sunday Conversation: The Search for Meaning, vol. 2: Is There Any True Justice?

Welcome to Heaven Earth Church. My name is Ross Stackhouse.

I'm the founding pastor of Heaven Earth Church. From the beginning,

our heart was to be a church for people who don't fit neatly into

church. Our heart is to meet people where they are, to learn their

stories, to honor their stories. Because in every human story

is God's story. In this podcast, you'll hear more about the

people who now call Heaven Earth Church home. Their stories,

in many cases of misfits who are discovering or rediscovering

faith. If you want to know more about us, you can go to heavenorthchurch.org

Otherwise, we invite you now into the story.

Hello, good people. Brad Miller here, the producer of the

Heaven Earth Church podcast. One of the main benefits of being

a part of the Heaven Earth Church community is our Sunday morning

conversations taught by founding pastor Ross Stackhouse.

You can watch and participate in the Sunday morning conversation

this Sunday morning, 9:30am Eastern time at YouTube.com heavenearthchurch.

The audio version of the Sunday morning conversation is available

here on the podcast, which you can find at Apple Podcasts, Spotify

and on the website, which is heavenerthchurch.org now from the

series the search for meaning is Heaven Earth Church Pastor Ross

Stackhouse with Is there any true justice?

Lord, I just ask that you would fortify our trust in you. If

it's just up to our human minds and perspective, it's going

to be hard for us to get there. With your help, we can have

faith that moves mountains. And so we're asking for that. In

Jesus name, Amen. So do you know what that is there? It's called

grass. It's this green stuff that it grows from the ground and

if you can believe it, it grows high enough that people take

these things called mowers and they mow it in the summer and stuff.

I don't think we're going to see grass again for a while. Adam

loves that, apparently. Good for you, Adam. But today we are going

to. We're starting a new series of conversations that has

to do with the stuff that's on that grass there. There's a word

in Hebrew that this, this teacher in this book uses repeatedly

that is like that. I'll go straight to it right now. It's a

really. This guy seems really hopeful. The words of the teacher

of the assembly, David's son, king in Jerusalem. He's got some

lovely words to share with you. Are you ready? Perfectly pointless,

says the teacher. Perfectly pointless. Everything is pointless.

Yay. Aren't you glad you came to church today. He uses that word

right there. I'm honestly, I don't think that's a very good translation.

It really means, like, something like dew on the grass,

that everything is like that. It's like one minute you look at

something and you observe it and it's beautiful. Then you turn

around and then you look back and it's gone. The dew evaporates.

And so he's frustrated as we're going to see that, like, everything.

He's searching for something that's reliable, something steadfast,

something true, something you can count on. And he just goes through

the search and everything he says, when I just keep looking at

it all, all of it is that havel. Dew on the grass, it evaporates.

I'm sick of it. There's nothing you can count on. Nothing

is reliable. Everything is meaningless. Do you feel that way

at all? Do you relate to that? I'd love to hear from you. Do you

relate to his feelings? At times circumstantially. Okay. When

you relate to him, why do you. Why do you feel that way? What gets

you to this point where you're like, tucker, I would love it. I'm

an over complicator, bro. That's what I do. Tucker throws in

this possibility, if it's a multiverse, there's always a possibility

in some other universe, you made a different choice. So I'm just

gonna throw that in there this morning. Okay. Actually, I didn't.

Tucker, did we think the same dude? Yep. Yeah. Was it even worth

it? I did all this hard work. It's in here. Yep. What else? When

you. When you. If you feel this way. When you feel this way.

Why? There's nothing that's reliable. Everything is fleeting.

There's nothing you can count on. Does anything have any meaning

that's worth it? It doesn't have to be a negative thing. Always.

Can you say more about that? Ava? Oh, did you read the Cliff Notes

on this book? This is literally one of the things he says

in here. If nothing matters, then just kind of do what makes you

happy or do what you want. Have you ever heard the phrase, eat,

drink and be merry? Guess where it comes from. This book. The

phrase comes from this book. What? Sorry? The book of Ecclesiastes.

I'm gonna introduce it properly in a minute. If you're a

Dave Matthews fan, eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

If you don't like Dave Matthews, you're like, this sucks.

I'm not coming to church anymore. Yeah, sorry. I'm Sorry.

I'm sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry, man. That's what comes to mind. We're

going to start, we're going to do this series as sort of an extension

of our last series where we talked about finding the Bible to

be holy again, rediscovering the power and beauty of the Scriptures.

I wanted to take you into a book of the Bible that's different.

It's very different to help you, like, see that we're talking

about a library of scriptures and we don't engage them all the

same. So this one is very unique because it's part of something

called the wisdom literature. It's the book of Ecclesiastes. It's

attributed to a guy by the name of Solomon, though, to be honest

with you. Did he probably write this by himself? No, it's a

community of people gathering wisdom and expressing a struggle.

That, yes, is sourced with him largely, but together they were trying

to compile a perspective. And the wisdom literature includes Ecclesiastes,

another book, you may have heard of it called Job. Heard of

that one? Another book called Proverbs. It's called the Wisdom

Literature. But really what this section of the library is like,

if you had to describe it in a sense sentence, it's like, we thought

we knew, but now we know we don't. That's kind of what the wisdom

literature is like. So, for example, Job is all about, like,

there's this super righteous guy, right? And all this suffering

comes upon him, this terrible, brutal suffering, and his friends,

whom Job will call miserable comforters. Anybody got friends like

that? They come up to him, he's lost everything, and they're

like, hey, Job, what did you do, man? Because you must. You've

done something to deserve this. Why did they say that? Because

their framework, their understanding of how the world works

with God is that if you're righteous, you're blessed. If you're

wicked, you're cursed. And guess what? They didn't make that

up out of thin air. It's expressed in the first five books

of the Bible. The wisdom literature is like, you know, maybe

that isn't how the world works. So his friends keep coming

back to him. They're like, hey, what did you do? Bad stuff doesn't

happen to righteous people. And Job is like, look, listen, I

might have done something, but there's nothing I could have done

to deserve this. He loses his family, he loses everything. And

in the end, he's faithful, right? And he gets a new family and

he gets new stuff. Everything is solved, right? No, Come on. If

you lost everything you loved and you got replacements, would you

be cool with it? This is where the Christian church has stunk. It's

not been any good. We turned off our brains when we engaged. The

scripture job ends with a mystery. And that's the point of

the wisdom literature. It is a space for reflecting on what you

thought you knew, but now you're not so sure of. Ecclesiastes

is like that too. This person is like, everything is pointless.

The things that I thought had meaning don't. And so I want to take

you on a tour through the book one, because I want to help you be

exposed to another section of the library of scriptures to teach

you that, like, you don't read them all the same. But also, this

is such a good book for our time. So good. So, hey, let's take

a tour through this guy's lovely perspective. What do you say?

Aren't you excited to hear all this pessimism? Let's. What? What

was that? I'll tell you. Yeah, the Cliff note, the spoiler alert.

Everything is meaningless. Okay. That's the spoiler alert. Okay.

All right, let's do it. I am the teacher. I was king over Israel

and Jerusalem. So again, this is attributed to a guy by the name

of Solomon, who is regarded as the wisest king in the history of

Israel. He was the son of King David, the greatest king in the history

of Israel. At one time, Israel was a united monarchy. Solomon is

the last king, I believe, of the united monarchy. And then it

divided into two north and south. The northern kingdom was destroyed

by the Assyrians in 722 BC. The southern kingdom was destroyed

by the Babylonians in 586 BC. When that stuff happened, people

were asking questions. How does the world actually work? I thought

we were favored. Here's his reflections. I am the teacher. I

was the king over Israel. I applied my mind to investigate and

explore by wisdom all that happens under heaven. And it's an

unhappy obsession that God has given to human beings. Amen, brother.

I'm sick of being so darn analytical. When I observed all that

happens under the sun, I realized that everything is pointless.

Did I tell you that? That is the conclusion here. A chasing after

the wind. It's all like dew on the grass. What's crooked can't be

straightened. What isn't there can't be counted. I said to myself,

look here. I've grown much wiser than any who ruled over Jerusalem

before me. My mind has absorbed great wisdom and knowledge.

But when I Set my mind to understand wisdom and also understand

madness and folly. I realized this, too, was just wind chasing.

Remember, in much wisdom is much aggravation. The more knowledge,

the more pain. Amen, brother. I said, oh, we're not there yet.

Yeah. So even the pursuit of wisdom. Is there any point to it?

No, everything is all right. We'll get used to this. We're going

to get better. Everything is. Yes, that's right. I said to myself,

this is chapter two. Now, I will make. Come. I will make you

experience pleasure, enjoy what is good. But this, too, was

merriment, I thought, is madness. Pleasure of no use at all.

I tried cheering myself with wine by embracing folly. In other

words, I just started to party. I figured it's all meaningless.

Eat, drink and be merry. And when he says drink, he means a lot

of it. Until I might see what is really worth doing. In the few

days that human beings have under heaven, I took on great projects.

I built houses for myself. I planted vineyards for myself. I made

gardens and parks for myself, planting every kind of fruit tree

in them. I made reservoirs for myself to water my lush groves. I

acquired male servants and female servants. I even had slaves

born in my house. I also had great herds of cattle and sheep,

more than any who preceded me in Jerusalem. Do you like this guy?

Very much. There's a point to that, too. You're supposed to be

like, oh, this fella. I amassed silver and gold for myself,

the treasures of kings and provinces. I acquired male and female

singers for myself. He had backup singers to his backup singers,

along with every human luxury. Treasure chests galore. So I became

far greater than all who preceded me in Jerusalem. Moreover,

my wisdom stood by me. I refrained from nothing that my eyes

desired. I refused my heart no pleasure. Indeed, my heart found

pleasure from the results of my hard work. That was the reward

from all my hard work. But when I surveyed all that my hands

had done and what I had worked so hard to achieve, I realized that

it was a chasing after the wind. Nothing is to be gained under

the sun. Oh, we ain't done. Oh, can we be done with this pessimistic

fellow already? Christy, here you go. I hated the things I worked

so hard for because I'll have to leave them to some schmuck. He

doesn't say that, but that's kind of his point. And who knows

whether that one will be wise or foolish. I'll work so hard, and

then I'll have to give it to this person who might be a complete

moron. That, too, is all right. I thought you were with me.

That, too, is. Yes. And so then I gave myself to despair. If

everything's pointless, I may as well just, like, wallow in despair.

Anyone ever get there? Yeah, I've been there recently, a little

bit, as I thought about all my laborious hard work under the sun.

Because sometimes those who have worked hard with wisdom, knowledge

and skill must leave the results of their hard work as a possession

to those who haven't worked hard for it. This, too is. It's a

terrible wrong. I mean, what do people get for all their hard

work and struggles under the sun? All their days are pain and

their work is aggravation. And even at night, their hearts don't

find rest. This, too is. What a lovely guy. Chapter five. What'd

you say? Bobo? Aren't you so happy you came to church today? Here's

why I want to do this. What if you're in your own time and you say

to yourself, I really actually want to engage the library of scriptures.

I want to try to find them to be holy again. And you come across

this, I want you to have stronger muscles for it. I want you

to be able to do it. Because this is. All this kind of stuff is

all over the Bible. I want to help you have confidence to find

the beauty and power of the scriptures again. And there is beauty

and power in these words. We'll see it. Chapter five. We're

almost done. I swear. The tour is almost done. We're just in chapter

five now. Watch your steps. When you go to God's house, it's.

It's more acceptable to listen than to offer the full sacrifice.

They have no idea that they're acting wrongly. In other words, he

goes to church and he's like, even this stinks. All these people

are doing this religious stuff and they look like idiots. Isn't

he an exciting fellow? Don't be quick with your mouth or say anything

hastily before God, because God is in heaven, but you are on

earth. Therefore let your words be few. He's starting to be

a little bit wise, actually. Remember, dreams come with many cares

and the voice of fools with many words. When you make a promise

to God, fulfill it without delay. Because God has no pleasure

in fools. Fulfill what you promise. Better not to make a promise

than to make a promise without fulfilling it. Again, he saw all

these people making promises, these big grand promises, and then

they weren't fulfilling it. Don't let your mouth make a center

of you. And don't make. Don't say to the messenger, it was a mistake.

Otherwise, God may become angry at such talk and destroy what

you've accomplished. Remember, when dreams multiply, so do thoughts

and excessive speech. Therefore fear God. If you witness

the poor being oppressed or the violation of what is just as

and right in some territory, don't be surprised because a high

official watches over another word. In other words, you better

get used to seeing poor people get oppressed with the kinds of folks

we got in power. I will keep going now. When good things flow,

so do those who consume them. But what do owners benefit from such

goods except to feast their eyes on them? Here's my irony for

you. We're done with the tour. You made it. Give yourself a round

of applause. You did it. Aren't you glad you came to church

today? Here's the irony of this. This guy's a big complainer.

You know what the irony is? He was the first offender of all these

things. He complained about all these things. All these things

that he said were meaningless. He was doing them as much or more

than any other person. This teacher was a big old fat hypocrite.

And yet God said to us, ross, I want you to study the diary of

this hypocrite and learn from it. Isn't that cool that God would

put such a thing in here? God would breathe something into this

that we need to investigate for ourselves. That's one of our

greatest. I'm going to turn it over to you in a minute. I think

I have three frustrations that I think here that. That I think lead

to us sometimes feeling like we're lost in meaninglessness. There

are three things that, for me, I think we get stuck in that keep

us mired in this feeling like he feels like there's no point to

anything. There's nothing you can rely on. There's nothing you

can count on. And he is number one for me. Hypocrisy. What does

it mean if you're hypoglycemic? Somebody who's a smart

person. Low. What? Hypocrisy literally means hypo. You're low

on criticism for yourself. Now some of you are going, Roz, I'm not

low on criticism for myself. All I do is talk bad to myself. But

we vacillate. We go from like, bad self talk to like, hyper criticism

for others. So this guy is like, everybody is the worst when

he's doing all the stuff. More than anybody. One of the things we

struggle with as human beings is like, we don't do well a lot of

times with self Examination because it's hard to do it. Especially

like when life has been hard. It's hard to look at yourself honestly

in the mirror. Do you know what's super easy? Denial. So, like,

when there was a book that was called Unchristian and they interviewed

16 to 29 year olds who considered themselves outside of

Christianity and 95% of them said that Christians are hypocritical,

I was like, well, yeah, but you are too. That's not unique to

Christians. That one I'm going to give us a little bit of defense

on. Human beings are by nature hypocritical. It's a hard thing to

do. I got two more reasons why I think we get stuck in this thing.

And then I want to ask you, why do you think we get stuck in

this, like, everything is meaningless stuff? The second thing

that I want to come, I want to tell you about is what I call the

SAT burden. Like sat. No, I don't mean the test. I mean that

we're all of us. I'll bet you I can get an amen on this. Are sad,

angry and tired. Anybody in the room? Sad, angry and tired. When

you're sad, angry and tired, it's hard to pay attention to things

that are worthy of paying attention to. It's hard to find meaning

in things. When you're sad, angry and tired, it's easier to go,

this is all pointless. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow

we die. This book is for people who are sad, angry and tired.

The last one is it just becomes a cycle of pessimism. Right?

Anybody stuck in a cycle of pessimism? If you're not, by the

way, if you're feeling joyful and meaningful today, you don't got

to come over to the SAD camp. Okay? Stay right where you are. We

want to catch up to you. Okay, but like, we get stuck in a pessimism

cycle, we start paying attention to the things that truly

are worthy of despair. But then that has a way of. We. We put

on the despair glasses and now everything looks like it's of despair.

So we get. We get. We're sad, angry and tired and pessimistic and

hypocritical. And then it just becomes this cycle where we just

get deeper in a pit. Am I just talking about myself? Past pessimism.

Sad, angry, tired, Hypocritical. Aren't we lovely people?

All right. What about you? And then we'll. We're going to find a

word of hope today, I promise. Why do you think we. I want to start

Come back to the ending. Why do you think we get stuck sometimes,

like, feeling like there's just no point? Kara, we have. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. We. We have access to so much information. It

is truly, in some ways, a blessing and one of the worst curses

that has come to us. Yep. And the algorithm is geared towards making

you sad, angry, and tired. Yep. Can be. It can be Regina for

sure. Right? Yep. Yep. There's no time or space to suffer. How many

days do you get? If you're in a. In a company, how many days for

grieving do you get? Two for a spouse. Yeah. Three for a spouse.

Okay. Plenty of time. Yeah. Take a. Hey, hey. Take the weekend

and then we'll see on Monday. World send flowers to the funeral.

Yeah. That. That's also why I want to show you the Bible. I say

this repeatedly. 40% of the Psalms are laments. The Bible is

a safe space of expressing sorrow. This whole book is like,

I don't know what to do with the world anymore. It's an invitation

to face what's hard and to find God on the other side. Kara.

Yep. Yeah. The Jewish culture has much more space for grieving.

Weird thing, Jesus was Jewish. So he literally has. Takes a moment

like Jesus is grieving all the time. In the New Testament, when

his best friend Lazarus dies, he just stops to weep with people

he knows. He's about to go over there and tell him to get up

out of the tomb. But as he does, he rushed through the grieving.

No. Jesus wept. Yeah. P.T. yeah. Yeah, sure. So. So we don't.

So maybe the way our family system has changed, the way our family

dynamic has changed, we don't live with our elders as much to learn

ways of going through that kind of stuff. Brad. Yep. Right?

Yeah. Yep. So that's part of why I want to show you in this. And

we'll Will transition on that point. Is that, like, admire that

what we have in front of us is. Is like we're invading somebody's

personal journal. He's working through. They are working through

this, like, struggle for meaning. It's an invitation for us

to do the same. Not to avoid it, but to actually process and move

on. And I want to show you that, hey, there actually are some

good things that are. That are interspersed in here. I'll just show

you. We're not going to hit them the next two weeks. We're going

to look at specific things where he started to identify. Here

is some meaningful stuff. But I'm sure you've heard this before.

Maybe you didn't know it was from Ecclesiastes. There's a season

for everything and a time for every matter under the heavens. This

is Ecclesiastes. You ever heard this? A time for giving birth

and a time for dying. A time for planting and a time for uprooting

what is planted. A time for killing and a time for healing. A

time for tearing down and a time for building up, so on and so

forth. Part of what he, as he searched and he processed, he was

like, there is, like, there is some sense of timing with God. I

don't know what it is. He'll say that. In fact, I'll fast forward

to it. Let's see, it's in 3, 11. I want to say he's frustrated.

Did I tell you? He says God has made everything fitting in his

time. There is a timing to this life. There is a timing to when,

like, things will get worked out. And God has placed eternity

in our hearts, but also without enabling them to discover

what God has done from the beginning to the end. So he's starting

to get to something like, eternity is in our hearts. Part of

the reason we're frustrated is because eternity is in our hearts.

Sometimes when you're frustrated with the way the world

is, I would invite you to not experience that as despair, but experience

it as a sign that God has planted something higher in you.

So if you're really displeased and you feel desperate about, like,

say, what's happening in the world, it is a sign that God has

placed eternity in your heart. CS Lewis says, one of his evidence

for God, he's like, some of us have this intuitive sense of, like,

the way things ought to be, right? CS Lewis says, where did you

get that ought? Where did you get that ought? You didn't learn

it from your fellow humans. Deep inside you is eternity in your

heart, a sense of the way things ought to be. He starts to

grapple with that. Keep going. This is one of my favorite ones.

I do this at wedding. The last wedding I did know the second to

last. I read this one often. One of the things he arrives at.

This is something I want to teach you about reading the Bible.

The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is all about patterns.

So in this, what does he keep repeating? Everything is, what are

you still with me? Everything is pay attention when he says something.

When he doesn't say it. That's something you do when you read the

Bible. When a pattern gets broken, pay attention. And here two

are better than one because they have a good return for their

hard Work. If either should fall, one can pick up the other.

But how miserable are those who fall and don't have a companion

to help them up? Like Regina said, we need a village. Also, if

two lie down together, they can stay warm. But how can anyone

stay warm alone? Also, one can be overpowered, but two together

can put up resistance. A three ply cord doesn't easily snap. I want

you to read that part with me. A three ply cord doesn't easily snap.

One of my favorite verses in the entire Bible is right there.

And it's buried in this book that you think is just being cynical

and pessimistic. Does he say everything is pointless? There a

pattern got broken. He's saying. One thing I discovered is

community is everything. Can I get an amen? That's why we show up

here. We're not trying to go through some religious performance.

I'm here today because I need you. If I fall down by myself, I'm

in deep trouble. But when I fall down with you, I got a shot.

That's why we do this. All right, so even I want to show you,

like this is the beauty and the power of the scriptures. Okay,

just a couple more. Actually, you know what? Let's fast forward.

We need to go. I want to give you a few things to take away with.

Take away with you four and I'm done. Okay? Part of what this

thing is teaching us is this point right here. God breathed into

the words of Ecclesiastes an invitation to us. Be honest with

your frustrations and contradictions. Turn your life toward

what is wise and worthy in God. Don't give up the search. Don't

give in to despair. Don't give in to pointless. Like everything

is pointless. This guy keeps searching and so he finds some things

that are. He finds some things that are worth it. So it's worth

it to search for what is wise and worthy. Do not give up. Do it

personally, but also do it in community. Listen, I love all the

people who are saying this. Folks who say, I believe in God and

I don't need a church to do that. I get why they're saying it.

I love them and they're dead wrong. We need a village. Two, don't

be a hypocrite. Easier said than done, right? It's okay to be

critical of what's happening. Practice self examination with yourself

in prayer, journaling in groups and on Sundays. Tell the truth

about yourself. Three, deal with that sat burden, sad, angry

and tired in meaningful, lasting ways. Listen, I'm sure Candy

crush Saga is a great game or whatever your favorite game is. I'm

getting a look from somebody in the front row. Look, we can't

do meaningful stuff all the time, all right? I'm just like you

sometimes. I'm just rewatching the same show that I've watched just

to feel comfortable. We're rewatching Grantchester right now.

It's about this good looking vicar who solves murders. I relate

to him a lot. Come on. I, I, I, I have a little room for some

fun, right? Come on. Somebody on the live stream, I don't even

know who it was, last week said that I looked old, so I needed

to make a comeback. Did you see that? I love you. Whoever that

was. They said you look teacher old. I don't know what that

means. Whatever. We can't, we can't always do meaningful, profound,

analytical stuff. We need times to just rest. But if that's

all we ever do, we won't stop being sad, angry and tired. This

right here is a meaningful, lasting way to deal with being sad,

angry and tired. So keep doing it. You guys chose to get up today

when it was like negative 50 or whatever it is outside. Praise

God. This still matters so much and I'm so thankful for it.

And lastly, this one's an easy one. Fear God. What? I'm gonna give

you the spoiler alert. In the end, he's like, that's all we got

to do. Proverbs says at the beginning of the wisdom begins with,

it's fearing God. Doesn't mean like oh my God. God is like this

wrathful lightning bolt throwing thing up in the cloud. No,

it means like have a profound reverence for the one who made all

things keep trying to turn toward him. It doesn't mean like

scary fear, like horror movie kind of thing. It means like have

a profound respect, reverence and pursuit for the holy things of

God. Keep doing it. All right, I'm done. Let's pray. God, thank

you for showing us in the scriptures that it's okay to wrestle

with what is meaningless. It's okay to whine and complain. Help

us in our search. Help us to search and to find you. Help us to

have a right sized view of ourselves. Help us to be a village

in a safe space, to express sorrow, to grieve and also to rejoice.

Help us to know what it even means to fear you. In the name of

Jesus, amen.

Thank you for participating in the conversation happening at Heaven

Earth Church. Your next opportunity to do so live is this

Sunday morning, 9:30am Eastern time either at the main campus at

309 East Main in Whiteland, Indiana or online at YouTube Live.

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Want to thank you for spending time with us today. My name is Ross

Stackhouse, the pastor to Heaven Earth Church and you may think

out there that your story is over, but in fact your faith story

may just be beginning. If you want more information for more information

about our church or you're interested in the next step, you

can go to heavenearthchurch.org otherwise we

look forward to being with you next time at the Heaven Earth Church

Podcast.