Equip Session: Relationships

Everybody doing all right, you guys doing good?

I was weak.

Are you guys doing good?

There you go.

Um, I really do want to kind of jump into this because I really believe that there's a lot of things that hopefully we can share that can be an encouragement to you, that can provide some perspective, and as the panel uh begins to share some of their stories and things like that, I believe that there could be some insight.

Um, so we're just gonna be very honest and very real.

So, what I want to do is I kind of want to set the uh the precedence for this because I think what Pastor Josh had hit on earlier in regards to um the world is so divided on the subject of marriage.

And and I think there's a lot to be said about that.

But I want to I want to start off by saying simply this, that marriage marriage is God's idea.

And I just want that to kind of settle inside of our minds for just a second, that marriage is God's idea.

Which this is what that means when we say that.

That means that because it's God's idea, God is the one who defines how it's supposed to work.

God's the one.

We don't get a chance to remix what God's idea initially was.

And so when we look at scripture, we see that God's intention for our relationships, particularly ones that are working towards marriage, has been for us to be fruitful.

That has always been God's vanity from the very beginning, is for our relationship and for our marriages to be fruitful.

That means producing fruit, producing things that represent Him.

So ultimately, everything we do is meant to lead in a direction that it can produce fruit, that can that can be something that images God.

So that's the direction that we're going in, and that's the thought that we're looking at.

And so the Bible has a lot to say about the subject of marriage.

And so even though we're going to use marriage, but but hopefully, and I think I've shared this before with our with our with our family on a Sunday morning, that if you're in a dating relationship and it's not heading in that direction, you have to ask yourself, what are we doing?

Because the Bible says it this way it says, How can two walk together unless they be agreed?

If there's not an agreement on where we're going, then how can we ever expect to get to a destination that we haven't defined?

And so the goal is the hope is that if you are in a relationship, I'm not saying that as you go on the first date, like, okay, so let's get a date now.

I'm not saying please don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is we don't date to date, we're dating for purpose to make sure that we get to the place that God has called us to be.

So we're gonna we're gonna allow that to kind of be the framework uh that we look at.

So before we before we get into some of these things, I actually just want to talk to our panel for a second to kind of hear a little bit from you guys.

So up here we have such a broad um range of perspectives and age and things like that.

So I'm gonna go ahead and talk about Megan and I, and then I just want to go down the line so you guys can not only introduce yourselves, but then tell us how long you've been married.

That's all I want to do, and then we're gonna get into some some other things.

So, Megan and I, we've um we've been together for 25 years.

Married for 20 years.

Totally no problem.

Um she she's been pursuing me since my three.

Okay, um, I just I kind of wrong.

I have the microphone as much short.

Yeah, so my name is Kari, and this is Musa, my wife.

Um we've been married for 15 years.

We're together for 20.

So you always want to remind me between until we've got five years of work.

So that's what we need to know.

Married for 15, together for 20.

Uh Joe Nancy Cox and we were dating for three years and we married for almost 43.

This is my wife, Jen, and we just celebrated.

Um we just celebrated uh two years of marriage in October.

And uh we we've been together for uh a little over five years.

Wonderful.

So I think what we just concluded is that we're gonna let the veterans share this entire panel because you guys have four decades in the game, so we're gonna give you all the mics so you can go with it.

Okay, so let's let's let's talk about this because I think a lot of times when we when we look at um relationships and as we're beginning that that dating process, it's like, how do you know that this is the this person is the one?

Like that special moment when you feel like, okay, like this this person is the one.

Like I could, I could, I could see myself spending the rest of my life with them.

I I want to start with you, you guys, Nate and Jen.

Tell me, like, when did you know that that each other was the one?

Uh it's funny, Jen asked me this uh not too long ago, I think you asked me this.

And uh, because we were talking about the whole like love at first sight, you know what I mean, that whole cliche, uh, throw up in your mouth type thing.

So not because of her, but but no, but seriously, uh, and I said, well, I knew like pretty much right off the bat, I was like, yeah, this is the person I'm gonna marry.

I knew that, but I didn't have confirmation of that until uh it was a season of prayer and fasting.

We were doing the 21 days of prayer and fasting at the church, and going into it, I was like, alright, God, I want to pull the trigger, but I need your blessing on this first.

And so that's when God confirmed it to me.

So, um, and then two months later I proposed yours.

So that's kind of how it was for me.

What about you?

I think for me, so when we started dating, I started with one anxiety, um, and it's gotten a lot better, but back in the day it was pretty bad.

And for me, what I realized is when I got anxious, he could handle that.

Um, past relationships that I've been in, they couldn't handle that.

It was it was too overwhelming for them.

So that was a big thing for me that he could kind of carry that with me.

Um, because we're together as a relationship.

Um he could carry that with me, and that's when I really knew that he's filling the gaps where I need and making me strong.

Um I think that for him as well.

What about the rest of the guys?

Like, tell me tell me a little about what you teach me that you were the boys.

Are we going down the road?

Yeah, yeah.

Uh Joe and I were in college, and I wasn't uh born again Christian, but I was brought up in the church.

My father and mother taught me to pray.

And I had dates and little jerks.

I was really tired of jerks, and I remember laying in the dorm room saying, God, just send me somebody I can be myself with, and I can laugh.

And then walked Joe with hose in his tennis shoes and really curly hair.

And I could just be myself with him, you know.

And I remember asking if he wanted to go to an art fair with me.

Totally thinking he'd say no because my dad would say that to my mother.

And he goes, Yeah, I'll go.

And I'm like, okay, well, thank you.

So I could just really just be myself with him.

He could he he chose he he allowed me to be me and still liked me.

Does that make sense?

I thought, yeah.

But we dated for three years to make sure.

No, there's phrases, you know, everybody talk about infacts, infactually, she's I can't say I was just crazy over her.

I love the way she looked, I love the way she made the film.

But in the end, you know, we hated for a couple of years, and you're third year, and I actually was not in a hurry to get married.

I just enjoyed being moving uh and I think that that almost ruined it.

But uh, you know, when uh you um we did like to talk, we loved to take walks, and the art fair was about being with her and recognizing she wanted to do that, so I wanted to share the things she wanted to share, that she would do the things I wanted to do.

Um I think we went to see the very first Star Wars movie in the big theater, that's all we are.

So anyway, but it you know it comes down to uh we even kind of separated three and a half years saying maybe we want to date other people, and you know the lesson of that was there was nobody else I wanted to be with.

And so I think that's uh you know, my next door neighborhood said, Can you see your life without her?

And uh I said, no.

He said, well, that's a good sign.

Oh, that's kind of sorry.

So um what I let Tarx from Trinidad, can you guys hear his accent?

So I I always make a joke when he when I first met him, he had just gotten to the states, not too long, and so his accent was super thick.

So I most of the time I could not understand what he was saying, but his voice was like so soothing.

Great.

I was like, understand what he was actually saying.

Now, now, obviously, um, very, very attracted to him, but we we were together five years before we got married because we both came into the relationship with just a lot of baggage.

Both of us had grown up in broken homes, we had got saved in our church together for the first time, so like we were just learning everything about ourselves, about God, and honestly had never even seen what a healthy marriage looked like.

And so we had both been in very dysfunctional relationships because we just thought that was normal, that's all we had seen growing up.

And so I think it took us a while.

And I was really scared to get married just because I'd been hurt so many times, and just I just didn't want to make the wrong decision because I finally knew God, and I was like, He has to be this man of God, and I need to make sure that he's the right one.

But I think it's a lot of what everybody else said is um I I just I had the peace of God, he accepted me, we were very compatible.

I I didn't I didn't want to have my life without him in it, and we just had a friendship that was real, and we had the same goals, like inserting God and moving forward and wanting to build a family that we didn't get to grow up in.

I think so, but there wasn't like this component of I know he's the one.

Yeah, all right.

Yeah, so you know, as you can tell, we're we we didn't have a lot of similarities basically.

She was growing opposites, complete opposites.

She's from Mountains, Colorado, I'm from the Caribbean Islands, you know, so all the opposites.

However, there was just attracted to each other, we had this genuine affection for each other, and we dated for five years, but I would say, from my perspective, from my side, I had some really good friends that were that I worked with at church, Pastor James and uh Bradley, and they they challenged me after a while.

We dated for five years and we kind of slew with Jewish and all this kind of stuff.

And after a while, he's like, one of my buddies was like, Tari, what are you doing?

I'm like, you know.

Think about what you want to do, think about you thought about marriage.

No.

That was a navy and thought of a navy actually because I have no plans for that, but after that, that started, you know, these friends, I could trust them, and they actually challenged me to think about it.

And after that, I started to think about it, I prayed about it, and God slowly gave me that piece about marriage.

Again, we didn't have a good example of a healthy, strong marriage around us.

Church friends we did.

We didn't have a good example here to look at.

But after that season of just prayer and thinking about my future and thinking about what it would be like with Lisa and without Lisa, it was clear.

This was the next step for us.

So I disagree with what Keith said earlier.

I don't think so.

Um so Keith and I were in the when I met him, we were in the ninth grade, and I was in the typing class, and literally in the typing class, there were cubicles.

But in the cubicle, you can't see the people on the left side of you or the right.

You can only see him struggling in front of you.

So it was very awkward when he did that sound.

I don't think they've heard you have perfect, and his hair pictures, I'll show you later.

Um, but I'm I'm only most like mud, so um, and so we saw each other every day because, like everyone else says, like when you don't have the model um to follow after, like I didn't have that.

My parents didn't marry, um, they didn't, you know, after they had me split up.

And so I didn't have that model.

So for me, it was harder for me to engage or pursue a relationship with them, but I liked him a lot.

We both liked each other a lot, and so it wasn't until after high school we were like best friends in high school.

Um, every year at the end of the school year, um, he would give me a hug and a kiss on my cheek.

We used to talk on the phone.

I used to sneak on the phone to call him, which is like get your parents' wishes and stuff, and so I would call him and we would talk on the phone, and it was always laughter, it was always that, and then after me and singing.

And he was like, I want you to sing this song, sing this song to me.

And I was like, okay, so I did.

But it wasn't until after I went to college for a year and I came back and someone told him that they saw me how good I was.

He showed up on our door.

And um, after that, like first month, like we just hung out.

We didn't put a label on it, we just went to the parks, we went to amusement parks, we hung out, we talked on the phone for hours.

And when I when we talked on the phone for hours and we didn't repeat the same thing, I'm talking about he had an early morning schedule, about 6 a.m.

I we would talk until like 5 30.

And so it was like we knew.

It was so reckless, but we got energy.

So um we talked for hours, and I knew, I knew that he would, how he was with his mom, how he treated his mom, that if he respected his mom, that he would respect me.

He treated me like a queen.

He always left me notes and stuff, and I knew he was the one.

Um, we dated, as they said on the panel, um, for a while, for five years as well.

And you can tell them when he decided.

I was ready.

Okay, so I mean honestly, I think kind of like the theme is we we didn't have like a great model.

Like my biological father left when I was four, but my stepfather came in when I was around ten, and he was a great example.

But but for me, there was like no big, there wasn't a lot of discussion around around marriage.

So having been in relationships that were broken and flawed and all those things, you're just trying to look for someone that you can that you can be yourself with.

Because unfortunately, a lot of times you're like, you're you're constantly, it's like if you're if you're if you're connected to the wrong person, it's like you're in a non-stop job interview where you just gotta constantly be on, you've got to have your professional voice on, and it takes on different forms.

But what I found with Megan, because we started off as friends, we we bypassed all of that.

So she she knew every she knew every party, she knew the the happy side, the frustrated side, the intergood side.

And so I didn't have to keep anything hidden.

Um, and so that was the first time I'd ever been in a relationship where I didn't have to like sweep anything under the rug or hope that there was a version of me that she didn't run into.

And here's how that's benefited us even in our marriage, because this is this is what I found for us.

Um, it's inevitable that that though we we walk by faith and we and we're we're just surrounded by grace, there will be moments where even as you're in your faith wall, that your past version of yourself will begin to flash.

And what ends up happening with a lot of couples when they meet each other and they only know the polished version of one another, that when that old version flashes, they freak out, like, okay, I didn't sign up for this, I don't even know who you are.

Maybe I need to kind of come up with an escape strategy.

But the thing is that even my most broken part, she was familiar with so that even when it came up, there was this endorse that was already built in because she saw me mature from that instead of seeing a polished version from me, and that was it.

But I think for for me, when when I knew that, um when I knew that she was the one, it was like, okay, yeah, we're compatible, we're getting along, everything is great.

But it was like, how do how do you handle, how do you handle suffering?

Because I think even this is before I was even like biblically minded, but you know, Jesus makes this statement of like if you can suffer with me, then you can reign with me.

Um and for whatever reason, I was raised in a Christian household, and that thought always came to my mind.

So I would often think about those seasons where where maybe the paycheck wasn't as good, but yet she was still riding with me, like, yo, she can suffer with me, so she's gonna reign with me.

Like, so I would just constantly think through that anybody can pick you when you're on the top of the mountain.

Anybody can fall in love with you when everything is going good.

But if she can grind it out with me when I got in my car accident and I had to stop working for almost two years, and it was the only income, and she was the one I was providing, and I had to go through all that stuff, that's when I knew, okay, this is the woman that I could see me spending the rest of my life with.

And so, fortunately for us, we had our dating relationship, but then when God came into it, he radically saved both of us at the same time, and there was no strategy for that.

Like we didn't we didn't say, like, hey, we're gonna go to church and we're gonna surrender our life to God.

Like, it was like we went to church, and then there was an altar call, and we were on completely different sides of the of the of the service.

And I found myself being drawn to the altar call, Megan found herself drawn to the altar call, and God grabbed a hold of both of us, and it was like we knew then, like when I remember coming out of like that that Holy Spirit fog and looking over and seeing her, not even realizing that she hadn't surrendered her life in the same way that I had, it's the first time that I had felt um the pressure of the Holy Spirit say to me, This is the woman that I'm calling you to.

It was very clear, like it wasn't about just like God said, This is the woman I'm calling you to, and it is your responsibility to steward this relationship above all else.

Like as a new Christian, that being the first thing that I heard, it built in me this um this discipline of survival.

Because the truth is, when we did get saved, I don't know if we were like 20.

I think we're like 20.

So as people go through these seasons of growing pains, it's it's it's it's only natural that you'll hit these moments where we're not on the same page anymore.

So the escape strategy can ultimately be a default when that's what you seem model to you.

But I remember there will be moments where I'm like, man, like, and honestly, pray like, God, we're just not on the same page, like things aren't working out, like maybe she's not the one, and God's like, no, remember what I told you.

This is the woman that I've called you to, and it's your responsibility to steward this relationship.

So if you need to go back and apologize, whatever you need to do, humble yourself.

So, what God did for me is that when he spoke to me about us, is I created an altar.

It was the first time I understood in the Old Testament when he created an altar for the God, and that has helped us survive because we've gone through highs and we've gone through lows, and whenever the enemy has showed up, that voice has always rose up beside him saying, But remember, this is the woman that I've called you to, and your primary responsibility is to steward that relationship.

So that's my long and drawn out way of saying, like, I knew it uh from the day we were in typing, but God confirmed it when we radically got saved.

And we never and we never we never look back from this.

So so that was that.

So let's let's talk about this because now we have a we have a lot of uh legacy and perspective.

I know for Megan and I, we have we have our our three kids, 26-year-old, two grandkids now, daughters in the back, Caleb's at home, probably asleep.

Like we got we got that going on.

You have your children, you guys have your children, and you guys, we'll we'll talk about that again.

That's Jen's like, no, don't you speak to them, like, but as you know, like, okay, so now we've all got like these milestones in our relationships and our marriages, so things change.

How do we keep love alive?

How do you keep that that spark lit?

Because things change, you got pick up responsibilities, you got mortgages and car payments and all those things that kind of interrupt.

So, how do you keep things moving forward?

So, what does that look like for all of us?

So let's let's just start with you guys um and and then let's let's just kind of work our way down.

There we go.

Well, Tark's got these shorts, these pong shorts.

Um he really does have those shorts.

I mean that's just a really good question.

I I think that we've gotten we we've done that well in seasons and we've done that really bad in seasons.

It was for me the the the hardest struggle of keeping our love alive and keeping all of that intimacy and making sure that we were keeping one another priority was when we had kids and they were young.

I just felt so I was working, I was a working mom, had young kids, and we didn't have any family around, so I just felt totally depleted and exhausted all the time when they were little.

And so it was honestly just a discipline, just like I would discipline myself to make myself work out, or discipline, I mean I didn't I didn't have any feeling whatsoever of like okay, we need to go on a date night, or you know, I need to check on Tori, I need to see how he's doing.

So it was in that season, it was a discipline when our kids were young.

But I don't know how do we do it now?

I mean, I just think we just prioritize it.

Yeah, we just prioritize time together.

We do, and I think also we we looked at well I because I'm I'm from an engineering background, went to school for engineering, and so I understood patterns and seasons, and that's one thing I observed uh about uh about God about Christ and about my work with God is there's seasons and I have seasons and I I quickly, when we got married, I quickly understood and observed the different seasons that we went through as a couple, you know, from the beginning of the year, there's different uh busy times when I was in college and stuff like that.

And I knew, I kind of saw when you know she's getting treated with work or something like that, or I'm running my time empty.

Um and in those seasons, what I would do, I would know, okay, you know what, I gotta do something different to make sure that we stay close and put into practice different things, you know, uh from the date nights to talking more to texting more to you know coming out and saying I love you more often.

So little things that we would try to do, but I think it all stemmed from because it's busy, as we work at we have celebration for a number of years, we've been there for 20 years, and so it's been busy, but understanding the rhythms of all our lives and the rhythms of the seasons that we go through, knowing when to push, knowing when to oh man, I'm I'm tired, you know, she would know when I'm in a super busy schedule, she would uh do things to bring us together and fight schools.

So I think for us it was just really understanding different seasons and adjusting our schedule or lives or everything to understand that's very wild on this, so I'm gonna really show my disappearance.

Um we got Mary, although she was raised in the church, and I remember uh kind of the Holy Spirit, the alter call at age 12 that changed my life.

And everything was different, but I didn't know Jesus.

I didn't know who Jesus was in the moment when I joined his church, God ended my life in a big way.

So when we got married, we really didn't have this Jesus relationship the way.

So our first three years were kind of tumultuous, or maybe normal, I don't know, depending on how you look at it.

Um but three years in, you know, it was rough.

But you know, God has a way.

And I think one of the messages I want to say is you know, you can know each other before you're married.

But marriage is a covenant with God.

And so that changes everything.

I don't care how well you know a person, but not married, you're saying I do, you get entered into a covenant with each other, with God.

And all of a sudden, God is interested in you too.

And really, he wants to be a model to become one and closer to him.

And so I would say that those three years of tumultuous living or drawing is closer to God.

In fact, I would just describe my life in those first three years as a ladder, and I was trying to climb.

I knew there was a God.

I was afraid there was a devil.

And every day felt like I was going up three stairs and down here, you know, and just failing every single day.

And when we, those canvas crusaders came to live with us for a week, uh they figured out about five seconds that we really didn't know who Jesus was, uh, and afraid that it was a bad turnaround for us.

So I would say there's always seasons, you know, and again, this confidence changes everything.

Um we always tell our kids tell our kids three years.

You don't know, you know, this marriage, you've got to give everything three years because at three years it seems like you're starting to pick, you know, work things out.

But there's seasons, the kids come, and we're in the season now where there was empty nesting and then the kids came back.

Now there's empty nesting again.

And uh and every season can be exciting because if you make God the center of your marriage, that'll keep your love alive.

And if if I love her, I love God, I love God, God demands that I love her.

And you see this drawn together into a unity, and that'll be hard.

The secret to keeping the love alive is as the fashion Bible puts it, letting the self-life die and the spirit life come to life.

And um, I I remember uh this is the lesson short.

Real short story.

We were trying after we came in the world, six months later, we've been trying to have a baby and coming.

And I remember she telling the story I do, but I did, I was an engineer and I was working every night 16 hours a day that was consuming me.

And I remember I was crying because she can't get pregnant.

And you know, there came this moment of life and I said, oh my gosh, the woman I love can't get pregnant.

And I didn't care, I'll be honest, she was crying because she couldn't get pregnant, and I didn't care if she didn't.

And I realized I love her, she can't get pregnant.

God, she wants to be I love it.

So I'm thinking, and that's marriage, that's all we got.

You're taking interest, and you've got interest here, and you're individual.

You know, everybody thinks, you know, the two shall become one is about sex or something, but it's not.

It's about the two of you growing together and the same interest.

So you have to shed a lot of those interests.

And she has to share those interests, and we're gonna come together, and actually the only way to get home is to draw a close to God.

We both draw a close to God, and then you've got the same interests.

Anyway, that night, that's the only time in my whole Christian career that I actually heard the audible voice of God say she appeared in this dumb.

And she has her own side of the story.

But the point is now I have to say I love her, therefore I love what she wants.

And I love what she wants.

To keep it alive.

Um like I said, with children is different, and we didn't have a lot of money, and we didn't have good babysitters, and we had four kids, so we had to be uh to be creative.

I mean, things like okay, the kids are down, I'm gonna lay a blanket down on the floor, I'm gonna have a picnic and watch a movie.

I mean, we had to be very creative.

But you sold yourself short a little bit because you're you're better than what you just said as far as your hearing.

Because um, this past weekend, this is what happens in New York City.

I fell and cut my head open and got stitches.

And before I left, we went, I went up to see the children and France.

And uh before I left, I had put a Valentine chalkboard, chalkboard uh that underneath this pillow that said I love you forever.

You know, it was leftover from Valentine, and I Paul just put it under his pillow.

But when I got home, he had um have you seen these clear balloons that you put lights around?

If you haven't, they're awesome.

All your boyfriend's something too.

Yeah, it's party food.

He's my compassionate one when I get hurt.

And so he had those, and this big heart that said that said love when I came in.

Well, it's those things too to keep your love alive, you know, that says, Hey, I'm gonna take the time and I'm gonna sacrifice because he left work, he you know, and he went and he did this, and it took the time to go and do that.

He's always doing things, leaving a cart or something.

So we we actively, you know, have a date line, making a date night because it's hard when you have kids, it isn't anymore.

Uh but um uh, you know, just finding things to do, because we could grow old and get fat, and well, you know, but choosing not to do that.

You know, choosing to, you know, okay, let's go here, or let's take a walk around the walk, or let's go to stupid Lake Wells and find teepees and see what they're like.

It's things like that that we have to kind of just you know keep a sharp in it.

Um I mean you may think like two years in uh this question isn't relevant, but for us it's a little bit different because we do work together.

And we actually met at work at a previous job, so I've just been following her around very she is.

But I think that for us is why it's a little bit more difficult because we have like this quote unquote professional relationship or our work relationship, you know what I mean?

We obviously have to be cordial and and work together and and you know uh advance the church and all that good stuff, but at the end of the day, like first of all, we're husband and wife.

And so we always have to keep that in the forefront of our mind.

Like, first of all, like I'm her husband, like not just her coworker, you know what I mean?

So, and and that and that can the lines can get blurred a little bit and stuff.

So you just have to be intentional about that stuff.

And I think for me, uh it's it's knowing the if you've ever done the five love languages thing, like that's a great resource, and I would strongly recommend that.

Like, it's knowing that about Jen, like quality time, you know, acts of service, like okay, that's how I do that.

Like, if I give Jen a gift, like, yeah, she likes it, but that's not her thing.

You know what I mean?

So um, so instead of going to play golf on Saturday with my friends, maybe spending time on Saturday with Jen.

You know what I mean?

So it's it's that type of stuff.

Like, it's truly knowing, it's truly knowing your spouse.

And and and I believe, like, if you if you truly know your spouse, and everybody said it up here, but she and I say it all the time, like we're we're one.

So if I'm not loving her, it's almost like I'm not loving myself at the same time.

You get what I mean?

So um that's kind of how I look at it.

Yeah, I mean, we dated and are married and we both worked together.

So it's been really interesting because we're always with each other all the time.

So I think also making sure we um I call it like adventure days, like we decide to do something different.

It could be once a month, it's not every week, we can't afford that.

Umce a month we'll go and say, okay, we're gonna go to like a practice bar, like let's do something new, and finding intentional things to do together that are new, um, I think always makes these things exciting for us as well, since we are always with each other.

And don't recommend tape peeps.

Well, yeah, um we all think the people five.

Because it's the same thing, we're together all the time.

All the time.

I don't get tired of being around him at all.

Well, what we try to do is like when we come home from work, we try to give each other a little bit of space because we are together, we drive into work together, we work closely together.

We drive home back together.

So we're always together.

So um, what do we what we started to do was give each other space when we got home to have our own time, and that time allows us to reunite back together.

So I want something that's different that he doesn't want to watch, he watches something that I don't want to watch.

I just want to stay away from it because otherwise it's something we're doing.

I want to know this one.

We get back together at the end of the night, and this is where we watch things that we want to watch together.

We always spend time together, we have fun, um, we'll laugh and joke, we'll spend time with our kids, but most of all, we've been finding like times to like even like when we go out of town, because we go out of town and we're doing that for work as well, we're finding moments to extend it a little bit so that for Keith and I, we have our one-on-one time together because we do spend a lot of times with our kids, and so we're just finding those moments we have our Disney passes.

Sometimes we don't go with the kids, and we'll just go with ourselves and do those kind of things.

So it's just uh in movie days, like Friday was like, Hey, let's go to the movies, and it was just him and I.

So we try and do we have a lot of things in common, which was a blessing for us because we we don't have a lot of resistance on he likes to do this, I don't like to do that.

Um, we like the same TV shows and we like the same things, so we can be fine.

So that's what we have to do to keep the love alive.

And I think for us, because our children are older, but we are we're really the type-in family, like giving ourselves permission to leave them home.

Like that that's a that was a big deal for us.

Because, like, you know, we'll be out sometimes like Megan will say, like, should we get something for the kids?

And I'm like, no.

Like, I mean, when we were when we were younger, and like you know, my older son will be there, and we would like come here watching the kids, like, we would like sneak off the McDonald's and like you sit in the parking lot eating, and it's like, man, but I feel guilty, but we should get something for the kids, but no, this is our moment.

Now, I'm walking with a chick on my back, and there's nothing in it for them, and I'm always fine.

Because I'm listening, for the first bigger small moment.

Find those small moments that are just for her and I.

So if it is a small meal, if it is watching something on television, if it is um just sitting on the back porch, whatever those things are, like those moments where it's like, okay, this is just this is just our time.

Even if the kids are doing their own thing, but this is something that's for us, even amongst them, that has been huge for us.

And I think one of the things that that I that's kind of emerged from a lot of the things we talk about is that it requires a great deal of intentionality.

Like it's it's not something that just happens by accident.

And and I think like you know, you can correct me if I'm wrong, because we had such a strong friendship, there have been seasons when we didn't do this well because we just we just depended on our organic relationship to be the thing that would help move us forward.

But then when I found that there were moments where it's like, man, I feel like we're just buffering, we're not moving forward.

Oh, we stopped being intentional.

We stopped, we stopped, we actually stopped making the decision, we just kind of expected it to work itself out.

But if you don't make the choice, you're not actually going to begin to move forward.

And so that was one of the things for us.

And then the other thing that's really important is that remembering that love is a choice.

Like it is it is a choice.

Um, and and so when you look at the 1 Corinthians 13 and it kind of breaks up all the different things, and you look at the summary at the end of the day, it's like I have to choose to be kind, I have to choose to be patient, I have to choose to be long-suffering.

Like these are choices.

And so that was not something that you see in the movies.

It's like love somehow consumes you, takes you over, and then now you just are falling in love and you had no choice in it, and that we live happily ever after.

They don't show you after the credits roll that you gotta make a choice.

That when they wake up in the morning and the makeup's not there, are you still there?

When they're sick, you gotta run to the store, are you still there?

Like it's like pushing past all those things that look good on the surface and making that choice.

So that's something that we had to learn.

Like, okay, the feelings are gonna go, but we have to choose to continue to make this forward.

So that's one of the things for us.

And then the other thing that's really helped us, and I think I think Nancy and Joe, you guys hit on it, but like keeping God in the center.

So I want I want to talk about this for a moment because this is this is a real critical part of everything that we're saying, like keeping God in it is massive.

So let's talk a little bit about what part does your faith play in your relationship?

Because I think sometimes we can we can segregate the two.

We can kind of separate the God dynamic, and it's just kind of about us.

But faith has been the only thing that has kind of sustained us in very difficult seasons.

So let's talk a little bit about like what is what does faith look like in the context of your marriage, and how have you been able to lean on that when you didn't have, like you didn't see the evidence on your on your from your view, but you had to depend on your faith to get through it.

That's a good one.

I mean, for me personally, my take has been everything in our marriage.

I I think I mentioned in the beginning, you know, we just didn't have a good model, so we have a lot of trial and error and trying to figure it out as we went and getting advice, but I mean, uh just the the values in the kingdom of God and like what Joe said, it's a covenant.

And so, I mean, we went through a very, very difficult time in our marriage, probably about year eight.

I think it was year seven or eight.

And honestly, I did not think it was gonna last.

Like, I if we didn't have kids at that time, I think that was the thing that was really making me fight for it more than ever, is that we had kids, but there was no um, there was it was not based on any feelings between us.

That's the best way to say it.

But because we had made that covenant with the Lord, and I knew just in my just in my walk with the Lord personally, there's so much that the Lord has taught me that I can't see with my eyes, but I know to the eyes of my heart, and just follow me when I don't understand what his word says, regardless of how I feel.

So I have been matured in that in my own personal walk with God, but the same thing that applied to our marriage.

And um, I'm so thankful.

I'm so thankful that I have my faith because I trusted that God, I trusted that God would get us where we needed to be, even if the two of us together I didn't, I had lost faith in us as people trying to get there on our own.

I knew that God would get us there.

I knew that.

I knew that I knew that I knew that God would get us there, and that's what gave me the hope and the strength to hold on, just like in our own personal walk with God.

But um, what was I gonna say in that?

I had a good thought just a second ago and I just forgot it.

But um, yeah, just that I'll think of it in a second.

Could you want to add anything to that?

I forgot what I was gonna say on that.

But yeah, I think just the voice of the Holy Spirit, too, and to everything that we've talked about, the Holy Spirit will check you on certain things, like if you're not being intentional or um having grace, just like the Lord, you know, it's the same thing that we apply in our relationship with the Lord and with one another, having grace for one another, not expecting each other to be perfect, or just because I need this in the early years of our marriage, I expected him to fulfill all my needs.

I wasn't I wasn't relying on the Lord, like he's just the icing on the cake and just a companion, but like I was looking to him to make me feel good, and that was so backwards, like it was between me and God.

So I think I learned a lot through just my faith, my relationship with the Lord on that.

So I think we should add to that.

It's the same thing, you know.

As earlier in our marriage, we you know, we we didn't we didn't know what was what was coming, you know, um, and we had some friends around, and I think one thing I would recommend to each one of you guys is to have a good circle of friends, not just care about the relationships, but a couple that's older than you, that's more mature, that you can look up to, uh, that's key.

That's absolutely key.

And so because we didn't we didn't see what was coming ahead before we had kids, you know, when when those instances of having kids hit, and all of a sudden you're dealing with uh financial troubles and financial strain and stress and break.

We had to rely on the free.

We had to, there's nowhere else to turn, you know, so we had to get discipline to get into the scriptures and lean on Christ and see what his good says in this season of all that.

You know, there's a lot of opinions, there's a lot of a lot of TV shows, a lot of books out there.

But at the end of the day, God gave you this spouse, this wife, or this husband, and he knows how to get through that and to go to there.

And I think it took me a while to get there, to go into God.

And then after a while it came to a proactive step, a much more proactive step in going to God before things started happening.

So going back to the question, how did my faith play into our relationship?

It's from the early years, it was just waiting for things to happen and learning how to go to God into being proactive in terms of okay, having a good core of friends and relationships around me, and they will tell me things like, hey, now your kids are getting older, now this is happening, now you want to do this as a husband, this as a man.

You want to start taking even certain things and then going to God and asking him, how do I navigate this with this detail and so forth?

So that's how it works for me.

I mean, yeah, and sort of like a practical, um like we'll transition to the faith here in a second, but like practically speaking, before Jim and I were on staff, we were you, like we were just we were team members, you know what I mean?

Like Celebration Church was a Godsend for us, and we actually like recommitted our lives to Christ at Celebration Church, and we started serving.

And so what I'm basically trying to say is like we got we were at square one and we listened to what our leaders are telling us to do, basically.

Like a lot of times we want to do, oh, that sounds really good, and and uh that's a great like one-liner, but like we didn't have any other reference point, so like it was the faith of like, hey, I'm trusting that what you're saying is biblical, and that like you God has put you in my life to lead me for a reason, so I'm actually gonna listen to what you have to say, you know what I mean?

And and that's everything from serving to groups, like groups were huge in our lives.

Like, we didn't go to groups together.

I went to a guy's group, she went to a girl's group, and and the people that were in those groups, you know what, you know what I mean?

It's just being able to talk to them kind of like what you were saying, like intentionally surrounding yourselves with those people.

And then now, practically speaking, like there's only a couple things in the Bible that says will interfere with your prayers, and one of those is like how to treat your spouse.

And 1 Peter talks about like, you know, um that it's gonna interfere kind of hearing your prayer.

So that's another thing too, like how you're treating your spouse, and and and and not letting those other things like get in the way of that, because I don't want my prayers to interfere with, you know what I mean?

So that's kind of how I do that.

Okay, um I think the biggest thing for me is my parents um are still together.

Um parents did get a divorce, and I knew a lot of people's parents that got divorced, and I was just looking at the statistics before I got married, and I was scared to get married because of that statistic, and I kept thinking, like, man, why is this happening?

And there are many reasons for reasons for divorce.

Um, but I kept thinking about like why is this happening?

I don't want that to happen to us.

So, what can we do that can prepare us to make this marriage stronger?

And one of the things was let's go to church is serve together, um, let's put God in the middle of everything, and that has changed completely because when we were dating, we weren't going to church.

And it wasn't bad, it was great, but it wasn't what it is now.

Um when we started going to church as a dating couple, and of course now that we're married, we're still you know in the church as well, but it has completely changed our relationship as well.

So it's something I I really encourage you all.

Um, if you are dating or going to get engaged soon, um, making sure God has centered that relationship is gonna make it so much stronger.

So we have we had really good mentors.

Joe and I came to know the Lord personally together before we had kids, but we had a saying, God first, family second, all our work third.

And that's been our foundation.

And as even in the Symbus program, that's a program here we have at our church for couples getting ready to get married.

We always tell them it's like a triangle, you keep God at the top of the triangle, you're at this end, he is at that end, and as you go close to God, and he's growing close to God, you're growing close together.

I don't know how we would have ever, we have a good marriage, but I don't know how we would have ever done it if we didn't know to keep God first in our lives.

So that we and still going so through some very hard, hard things, not as just couples, but with children and all that, that we know that we need to go to God and say, what is your direction?

And even when I would want to really just disown him because of how he was thinking, you know, because it used to make me mad when we would be in an argument and say, Nancy, because I was a yeller, he wasn't, and you know, I wanted to duke it out because I was in police administration, so you know, yeah.

Uh uh.

And then we should see the other guy.

But he would always table me and it made me so mad.

He'd say, Nancy, let's just quit.

Let's go pray about it and let's come back.

And it used to make me so mad.

But actually, that's what we do now, and it's a lot easier.

When we have a confrontation, we we keep God at the center of it, you know, when we have trouble with us as individuals or as the friends or work or our children.

We've learned just God has got to be the center of everything, you know, and and and praying.

And it says even in the scriptures where a husband and wife pray together, you know, there's power in that, you know.

So we learn to pray together even when I didn't feel like it.

You know, I learned to pray.

So it would take me 40 years to tell the story, but I'm not for you.

And by the way, I think uh March 9th is our 40th year, 30 more of the where you go through all these seasons and initial times in the face of the same being on the street without a job.

Okay.

Um God is faithful.

Totally faithful.

How can a man know his ways unless the Lord's directing his stuff?

And if you'll if you'll trust every day and every decision you have, you're not going to be disappointed.

You're going to be our age.

Still loving the Lord, primarily still loving each other.

And I would say this.

Uh our relationship was a time of war, kind of like uh when her mother moved in, and she was going, that's a home with three small children, was it?

There wasn't a day I think about praying for her at lunch, you know, for every day, pray for her for an hour.

Um then all of a sudden, Lockheed eyes, G-E girl face, and I'm community.

She's praying for me for the next eight years.

They're going to go to Orlando.

And so we see that we were all we were constantly in things game for each other.

But there was something that all married people have got to strive for, and that is praying together in the same place, find the same point of reference.

For so long I was ahead of her.

And so long her spirituality was ahead of me.

But it came a point where we got equalized.

And now that's the adventure.

So, how we like describe your marriage is the greatest adventure anybody's ever had.

And that is found in those times together, in prayer.

And when we don't want to pray, we say, let's just ask the Holy Spirit to guide us, is what he says.

And you end up in places that you never thought.

And I can't explain it to you except to say that you want the adventure.

Pray for each other, begin on the same place and start praying together.

And that means mask off.

We're talking about that earlier, we're not going to, but you can't, you know, you want to be before the Lord together.

That means nothing's hidden between you.

Okay.

Because.

So anyway, I'll stop there unless we go 39 more years.

Okay.

So I think for us, there are a couple things that that was addressed that I want to talk about.

So we we talked a little bit about like confrontation, but I want to I want to circle back to that.

Um, because there are there are moments where, like, okay, what is the appropriate rules of engagement?

So with the previous question, we talked a little bit about like, okay, what part does what part does our faith play in our relationships?

Um, but I remember when there was this unhealthy way in which our faith led its way into our confrontations, and I'll tell you how.

Because I would weaponize the Bible to make sure that I would make my argument and shut her down.

Just go talk to, I mean, I I knew scriptures and things like that, and so I would like she would say something like, hey, you know what?

All liars would have their part in the label.

You're just randomly like holding stuff like that.

I mean, it would it would be it would be like just just like just like brutal.

And so with all of this stuff, there's a lot of times where you know we would have those those moments where you need to pray for your spouse and things like that, but it's like you're you're like you're praying that God changes them instead of actually like praying and asking God to come in and help you to engage in confrontation.

And so for Meg and I'm like, again, we didn't have like a healthy model on how to deal with conflict.

It was just more so like you know, she was from the inner city, I'm from a very urban context, so it was like, y'all know I have a rap background, so for me it was like battle rap.

Like it was like when you say your mind, I'll say my mind.

Like we can do this all night, and I'll talk the scripture in your path, and like that was that was part of one of the things.

And so we did everything wrong you can imagine in front of the kids.

Like it was it was awful, but but God had to come in.

So so what are some healthy rules of engagement in when it does come to conflict, when it does come to confrontation?

One of the things that we we didn't do, when there's highs and lows to it, we didn't shield our kids from it completely.

Um so I think there's times where we went too far, but I also am grateful for the times that my kids are aware that this is what healthy conflict looks like now.

But there are other times where we're like, oh, we don't ever want to see them argue us argue.

But it's a part of us, and they need to learn how to handle conflict because if they don't see us model how to handle conflict, when they're dealing with conflict, they don't see it.

So let's talk a little bit about like how do you how do you handle conflict?

How do you handle confrontation?

What are the rules of engagement?

Because I think you can probably help us because we're still figuring it out.

Yeah, let's let's look at this.

The power of life and death is in the tongue.

And so many of us will death, you know, and I think especially in the early marriage, we don't understand the girls.

Um words traumatize, and uh, and then what words do, harsh words, um if I'm harsh to her, and then I come into another one to say I'm changed or try to change.

But I use the same words in the last conversation, and now I've already she kind of read that's up.

I mean words, you have to be so careful.

And um, in this day and age when you can say anything, uh I would just say love is a better way, right?

And uh what's interesting is when you quote in 1 Corinthians 13 that everybody goes through what love doesn't.

You know, love is kind, but can you ever look at what love isn't?

Love doesn't keep score.

Okay, and I was trying to read, I can't give me a phone out and start getting into that scripture, but go be everything love doesn't do.

Point one.

And number two, know that uh you said when we were back, I can remember more than the 70s, or 1980, I guess.

Uh the teaching went around it was, but you don't have a right to take the log out of another person's splinter out of another person's eye until you take the log out of the other eye, and we all got logs in our eyes.

And if we were going to every confrontation is, hey, change me God.

And even if I'm like high ground right and she's low ground wrong, I still got something in my eye called pride right there.

Okay, that I need to get rid of it.

So if you'll go into a confrontation with the thing that died, or want to cause trauma, I want to get better.

And getting better doesn't remember and not ultimately I'm not to prove that I'm right.

And I know that sounds kind of like self-righteous or something, but it works.

I totally lost what I was thinking, and it was good.

Yeah, I agree.

Um when we were younger, I would just blurt out to him what was bothering me.

Didn't care how it bothered me, you know, didn't care what it was like at all, you know.

And we heard it, you know, and he didn't like confrontation where I could handle it, you know.

And then as I grew and I realized what it was doing, I realized that I needed to approach it in a different way.

I'm so much better now than I was because I've learned that when something's really wrong and I need to tell him, I've learned to say, okay, Holy Spirit, you're gonna have to prepare his heart and then open the door for me to talk to him.

Now keep in mind, I wasn't like that.

I was calling Hurricane Nancy.

And everything was born alive.

True story.

Yeah, we have some children that are like that too because they saw us.

We had a lot of things going on, but a lot of that came from our search, our circumstances in a home with my mother, and you know, and me just losing it, and so I would yell, and it wasn't right.

So I mean, if I could backtrack, I would take that back, I would shield them a little bit more, but then at other times they needed to see a healthy confrontation with their mom and dad or with their grandmother.

And so I've learned now, and just for all you young people and married people or pre-engaged or whatever, learn to say, okay, we're on the same team.

That's just how it is.

But he's coming from a different family teaching, I'm coming from a different family teaching, and we're gonna blend them together in what we believe, and instead of seeing thinking he's confronting me in something, I could see that he's trying to better me in something.

But then there's some things that are just wrong.

And so instead of hurting him, it is much, much better to say, okay, Holy Spirit, I need to tell him.

And I need you to open the door for him, because I don't want to hurt him because he's on that team.

Yeah, that's all right.

I love how to do how you do it first.

Well, if you've got a finished, we were married for 43 years and only took 46.

The thing I just said sounded like we've always had it right.

It's something we've grown in really in the last 10 years to really understand.

And so I don't know how you translate that, but it doesn't cover a multitude of sins, changed me.

And I just want to make the point that we weren't perfect.

Okay, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, and I think that's great where you how you talked about you both came from different backgrounds and recognizing that there's different ways that you had learned how to handle confrontation and embracing that.

And for us, we had to recognize um that there are different ways or different times that you have to address conflict.

So um Keith is wired to want to address things in a moment.

If I know that I'm upset and I don't want to say anything that's going to harm him, I'm like, you have to give me time.

And that has worked better in knowing, okay, where is your spouse at this moment?

Are we going to have the biggest blow up if we address this right now?

Or do we take time and say, hey, at 10 or later when we settle down, can we talk about this?

Because it was hard to when he wanted to talk about it, but I was really upset and I wasn't going to communicate it in the proper way.

That wasn't going to be like yelling or anything like that.

Uh it was just combustible.

And so we had to learn each other like how do you process things and how do I process things, and then we had to work together with what would work for us and being able to address it later.

But the mistakes that we made along the way was then we wouldn't address it, and so then when it came up again, it was a bigger thing, and you kept going in the same cycle, doing the same thing over and over again, you brush it over, you let's talk about it later and not address it.

And so then we had to work on okay, how do we address this?

But when you address it, it's the tone in that you receive it.

So is it in a sarcastic tone?

Is it in the yellow tone?

And so learning the way that I receive, I can't receive in a sarcastic tone.

I can't receive in a tone that's different.

Um I would like you to say it.

Like, I would like, no, we're in the middle of an argument.

I'm just gonna give you a call up.

I just want to give my comment up, but she's like literally coaches me and like, no, what do you have to say?

Maybe I want to talk to you about something.

I was thinking to this, right?

I'm just like, okay, so for the sake of keeping the peace, we would have we had to do that.

So what do you guys do and and what's your rules of engagement when it comes to conflict?

When it comes to conflict, for me, it's and I learned this.

I mean, if I if I was in a panel like this back in the day, we could have bypassed a lot of people back there.

But but what I would say now is I think what I've what I've learned is to think about your end in mind before going into a tough conversation of conflict.

And I think about, I kind of remember where I got it from.

I think it was um from Patricia talking this back in the day, but if this conversation or this topic or this issue I'm gonna bring up, is this gonna leave Lisa destroyed, defeated, is it gonna crush her?

Think about the end of what's the outcome of this.

And so what I would we what we would do, what I would do in that topic is think of, I want to think about how I want it to end, and then after a while that would lead me back to a discussion with myself about does this really, really matter?

Is this really something that's this important or is this something that's just bothering me?

You know, is it is it my ego, is it my habit that's bringing this up that it's actually so destructive?

And so what I've alluded to is also, you know what, sleep on it.

Sleep on it and bring it to the Lord and ask him, I would ask him, Lord, you know what, show me if this is something I really need to bring up with Lisa, and if it is, show me how to bring it up.

And he shows me, you know, he'll he'll set the moment, he'll set the time, and I will come above a humble posture of because a lot of times in one of these destructive conversations is um what I fail to realize is Lisa just doesn't understand something that I see.

You know, so it's out of like ignorance, it's out of it's nothing malicious she's doing against me for us to have this conversation, but she just doesn't know.

She doesn't have the experience I have with background, and I think about that as like, oh she just genuinely doesn't know, she doesn't see how this affecting me, or she doesn't see and that leads me back to you know what, this is not that big of a deal, or I shouldn't, this shouldn't be tearing me up this much or bring this to her like this, you know what I'm saying?

So I think about end in mind, I for guys, I think that's that's a big thing for us men, is that we can take time to think about, okay, if you want to bring up this big topic that you know it's a hot topic for whatever it is, you know, think about how you want to end that conversation, how you want it to be to end.

Because if you bring it up at night or whatever, and you know she's gonna explode, it's gonna be a long time, you know.

And then when you get it wrong, it's away from it.

You know, and why you want a piece of your own pain, you know.

So and the other thing I would say too is you know, if you end that destructive, if it's if it's if it's been combustible, if it has exploded, you know, I would say this command for guys, it took me a while to do this, is learn the art of saying you're sorry, I mean just don't know, and I'm an idiot, again call it just back up.

I'm 41 years old, man.

I'll tell you what, it's it took me years to figure out how to say I'm sorry quickly.

You know?

Now when you know when you have a a bad argument or something like that, it's like, hey babes like I'm so sorry.

Yeah, you know, and I'll just go on and on about it.

So that's kind of like all of rules of engagement, you know.

Very good.

Target's so good at conflict, I'm terrible.

I'm like, I'm gonna yell and scream, and you're gonna know how you're gonna be so sorry.

I'm like, oh my god, I'm just I just gotta I'm gonna have a little bunch.

He's he's gonna get a lot of my temperature.

Jesus is helping me.

It goes back to my thing.

Um, but Tark is such a good model, he's so good.

I love what you said, that was so good.

And Tarx modeled that for me and taught me so much through that.

But I was just gonna speak to those of you that are dating, just my background of being in a very unhealthy relationship.

I I think that we tend to be, especially if you didn't have a good model of what healthy looks like, and you've just gotten used to dysfunctional relationships, you tend to minimize the toxicity, toxicity, am I saying that correctly, of your dating relationship.

And just remembering that, like in conflict, and like if when you're dating, that's like the best foot forward.

And I remember hearing that, but you just for whatever reason allow, I mean, you should have boundaries, you should have healthy boundaries in terms of engagement, and so if somebody in a dating season is toxic and there's a lot of dysfunction and there's a lot of conflict, it may just not be the right relationship, and you just need to cut it off.

Like you're just both of you need to get healthy on your own, and then together, you know, if you're not healthy on your own, you can't have a healthy marriage.

So it's not you're not gonna come together and magically everything's gonna be healthy.

And so get yourself healthy, let them get themselves healthy, and let trust God if that's supposed to be a relationship together.

But I just think if we we don't, if we don't have good examples, we just tend to think that really dysfunctional dating relationships are okay and should move to marriage, and that's just a disaster waiting to happen.

And so just something to keep in mind, even that's hard.

Um can I just add something really fast and it'll be quick.

But you don't want to be a stuffer either, where you just stuff everything down and you pretend it's not there because whether you're dating or in a marriage relationship, you stuff it down, and then it's one brick on the wall, and then there's another brick on the wall, and before you know it, you're the person you're dating or the person you're married to could do the littlest thing, like not clean the dishes properly, and you're screaming and yelling at it.

And it didn't have anything to really do with that, as much as all the things you wanted to do as a separate.

But I also know that for Joe and just because I'm the personality that you're not going to bully me around, um, Joe learned quickly that he had to reason with me together.

And we have to reason together, and he never pulled rain company.

And I don't think, I think there's a wrong, and you all are all pastors, so I'm coming from a lay person.

I think it's wrong for husbands to think that they, it's my word, you're gonna do what I say.

I think that's wrong.

You all forgive me if I'm not right, but it doesn't work in.

So Joe never calls right on me.

If we have a conflict and a decision, we will table it and say, pray, let's go with each other, let's go back and pray about it.

And I can guarantee you, every time we do, God brings us to uh the same card.

You know, and I think that's important.

That's that's good.

So I I've I've gotta we gotta we've gotta dig into this a little bit more because I think that's a really good point.

He said he doesn't he doesn't pull rape on you.

So I let's let's just go in there.

We we see the scriptures in the Bible like wives submit to your husbands.

And that is the statement that people are like, I don't like that, it makes me feel uncomfortable, what does that look like?

Um and so even saying, like, okay, he doesn't pull rape on you, like that's that's a very that's a very toxic thought because many people look at that as that's either old school or how do we use that?

And we've seen it used in in so many ways with all the hierarchy stuff we're talking about, the oppressive thing, what was God's original intent for marriage, all those things that come into um the picture.

So let's let's talk just briefly around that.

And I think Lisa and Tark, because you guys are around Pastor Stoball and all this interdependence and understanding like we all have a part to play and all those things, like can you unpack a little bit about what that that that mutual submission, when you understand God's, like God's way of doing things in the context of the kingdom and interdependence, how it allows you to kind of be submitted, but it doesn't mean that you're subservient.

So can you talk to that a little bit?

That's really good.

Did you want to say something on that?

I don't think.

Okay.

Um wow, that's a really good one.

Interdependence.

That's it, that's a really that's a really big thing.

We are, I feel like the the it's a mutual submission.

It's I'm I'm choosing to, I don't have to, like on my own.

I'm I'm equal.

We're equal, we're all equal.

This is something Pastor Sterval's been teaching a lot about, how we're all equal, regardless of our gender, regardless of our economic background, regardless of the color of our skin.

We are equal.

God made us all in his image.

And so when we choose to come under any kind of form submission, that could be in an employer-employee relationship, that could be just any kind of thing, we are humbling ourselves and we are serving by saying we are making a choice to serve you and come under your authority in this position, whatever that might be.

But it's not because you're more powerful or you're better or you're more important or you know best or because you can pull rank on me or whatever that might look like.

But it's in a it's a it's a it's a way of humbling yourself to serve the other person, but it's not done out of power or misuse of authority or um unhealthy control, which is I think what I what I hear you saying.

And so it's a it's a mutual submission of being able to serve one another and that we need one another.

So um this comes from a Josh McDowell TT way.

I feel like Josh McDowell is even older than I am.

Um he taught, he said, this whole thing, that's a very important part, and there is always hierarchy, and I have a boss at work, and I have to be careful, but my boss treats me with respect, and that gets my opinion, and we so imagine a war, and you've got all these five-star generals sitting around the table with the president, and this one thinks you should do this, you know, this one thinks we should drop bombs, I think we should send the fleet and all of that, and they're all disagreeing with it.

But the goal is the same.

They're trying to win the war.

And the president will make that decision of which way we go.

And he expressed it like you may be a five-star general and the person next to you a four-star general, but at that level, they're talking and discussing about how to win the war.

And so if you keep that context of how to win the war on these things, then you're gonna find what does God think, what would be the best course of action to pray in?

What are you gonna find?

99 times out of 100, God can agree to alignment that would be a disagreement at the end of that turn.

And if there is, then the hierarchy plays.

And I hope that makes sense, but we always picture this subservient, like a sergeant over, a drill sergeant over a you know a new recruit at a boot camp.

You know, it's not like that.

Does that make sense?

Perfect sense.

So I think one of the things that we can kind of like walk away with this is with all of this, is understanding like, are we competing or are we completing?

And I think a lot of times when it comes to whether we what's the discussion of mutual submission, the interdependence, when it comes to conflict, any of these things, a lot of times it can feel like a competition.

So, like the dialogue of saying, like, hey, we're on the same team.

Like, let's not forget we're on the same team, we're trying to win the war.

We may have different strategies, but we're trying to move this thing forward.

Like, let's make sure that we're not competing against one another, that we're actually completing one another and trying to move this thing forward, which means, and this is something that that I had to learn, um, because I think we've all been there where you're thinking to yourself, like, wow, if if she could see things the way that I see them, then we would have more peace.

Or if he could see things the way that I see them, then we would have more peace.

But what that does is that actually robs us from being able to complete one another because if we both have the same perspective, how we're going to see these right spots.

But if we actually can learn to recognize that her strengths may be a thing that's weak for me, and then my strengths may be a thing that's weak for her, and we can actually use them together, then we are actually completing instead of competing against the things that we are finding differences in.

So that was a big thing for us that I think that God really had to help me through through all the years, like, hey, like we're not a competition, we're we're called to compete, not to compete.

So let's let's you know, we're about we're gonna wrap up in just a moment.

So I want to hear from Nate and Jen.

We're gonna I'm gonna jump into this and then we're gonna have one final question at the end.

But but let's let's talk about this.

So we have we have dating, and it was mentioned like we have to have healthy boundaries and toxicity and things like that.

So we we know what the Bible says in regards to the boundaries, not putting yourself in in areas of your weakness and expecting God's strength.

So living a life of purity before marriage, all those things and boundaries.

But let's let's talk about it.

So, of course, we're gonna say the the the question for this is what our guy came to talk about.

How important is intimacy in your marriage?

Let's let's go there.

Look at this to me, let's talk about yes, but the way you're framing the question, you're talking about physical intimacy here, or are you talking about just like intimacy as a whole?

Let the Lord lead you.

It is important, obviously.

This is when we let some of the questions on the email are like this is probably what he's gonna ask me to talk about first.

It's definitely important, but it's it's all about like like I kind of alluded to earlier, like really knowing her.

You know what I mean?

And like knowing who she is and knowing the way how like to love her, um, and what she like her languages and how to speak that, you know what I mean?

I don't know, I wasn't ready for this one.

I was still thinking about conflict.

I think for me too, intimacy is like also being together and spend time with each other, but I think that's also like what we share with each other, like what we speak to each other.

I think intimacy is sharing things with just him.

Um, whether it's my thoughts or my feelings, like, yes, it's good to share things with other people as well, but not everyone gets access to your life.

Um you have to choose that almost access.

And you have friends there.

We have friends that we talk to and share things with, but for me, intimacy is also sharing things with just him.

Um and that's with words, you know.

Yeah.

Let's hear it for the best.

What do you guys think?

I'm not gonna go to QA time, but I don't know.

Which I would say document.

Uh I don't know.

Intimacy um all kinds is really important.

But if you're not on a physical intimacy, you have to remember that I think Paul says you're supposed to be giving gifts to your spouse, you know, it's not about me.

Um the world teaches it's all about you.

And I gotta tell you, whatever Hollywood's preaching, do the office.

Because you know, they think that everything is great, it's always great.

And um, to be honest, it's it's um you're gonna learn your whole life as long from how to react to your partner.

Can't let's say all this.

But it's a gift.

If I don't have her forefer of whatever's going on, either physical or the emotions, then I'm not it.

And then I'm just a self-serving bastard.

I mean, sorry, but loving her is the goal.

And I would love her as Christ loved the church.

I would be like Christ as a barge in it.

And so, you know, this is not an easy answer, there's not an answer.

It's uh a learning of a lifetime.

And um, but do I love influencing?

Yes, absolutely.

But I am going to be very careful to do it the right way.

And with the way the Lord loves me, I'm not correct.

That's good.

I would just add that um I love the belief that she has so true.

Intimacy is crucial for a marriage.

It's very important.

Um and it's something you have to defend, you know, it's not just physical, but I love what you said.

It's that connection, that divine connection between Lisa and I, that intimacy, it's beyond just talking, it's beyond just communicating, it's beyond just physical, but it's that bond that God put between both of us that nobody could really break, you know, once we're in his will.

And uh that that intimacy, what we do, we defend it, we we fight for it, we we try to let not let the busyness of work.

Sometimes you travel, with kids, and things creep in and you're tired, and there's this life creeps in.

But I would say the sooner you can build in things to defend and fight for that time together, fight for that time to be vulnerable, fight for that time to say, you know what, I mean I'm you know, just tell me how your theme went, and I want to hear, and I can put my phone aside, turn my phone physically off.

I can do it.

No, I don't want her to, I have a question about Buddhists.

But but put your phone aside and just somehow spend time with her and just hear, even though I'm in my nothing block to my mind, but I'm fighting to just pay attention to her.

All that is intimacy that it's worth fighting for.

It's something that uh it strengthens us.

So when life comes in and stuff happens, because we have that intimacy of bond strong, you know, she would intuitive extent what's going on with me, and vice versa, we we would be able to move forward when storms come in, when storms are happening around us.

So intimacy, it's absolutely crucial.

And guys, don't think, for the men, don't think it's just physical.

It's not physical, it's uh it's way beyond that.

And to know what it is, go to scriptures, watch how Jesus interacted with people, watch how he interacted with his disciples.

You know, look at scriptures and and see how he teaches us how to interact with our spouse or lives, and um just learn and fight for it, defend it, don't just think, oh, a box of chocolates and some roses once in a while in the internet.

No, man.

Trust me, I'm giving that.

I'll give that price, I'll give that price, you know.

But what I would say after so many years of marriage, 15 years, man, it's it's now, it's I've talked about the seasons before.

Whenever we come through different seasons, it's like, okay, we need to make sure we spend time together.

We need to make sure we have more than date nights.

Okay, three-day weekend coming up, man, let's find some babysitters, let's just go get away, let's spend some time together.

You know what I'm saying?

It's something that we have to constantly fight for and defend and uh move together, move along with, you know, so that's it, it's crucial, man.

Good, okay.

So I think one of the things that to kind of help us have a glimpse of how of how it is, and I think uh till you really hit on it when you said like looking at scripture and seeing how how like Jesus interacted with his disciples and people is a model for it.

So when we when we look at marriage, like you know, Ephesians talks about how like all like the whole idea of marriage is really meant to like be the best example that we can have of what it's like for Christ in the church.

So when you kind of begin to look at the whole idea of marriage, that's God's way of saying, like, okay, this is this is the best way for you guys to even grab a hold of this relationship between Christ and his people.

So when you think about like the word worship, it means to kiss.

That is to be intimate with God.

It means to be drawn close to God, where it's like intimacy, into me see, see into me.

This is what God is ultimately inviting us to do every Sunday when we worship, or we're at home, we'll use the word.

So I've learned to think of intimacy through the lens of it's not just a it's just not a physical thing, but it's an it's an opportunity, it's an invitation to draw it close.

And so, in the same way that my prayer life is an expression of intimacy, that when I worship, that's an expression of intimacy with God, that when I read the word, that's an expression of my intimacy with God.

It fleshes itself out the same way with my spouse.

Like it's it's my my communication with her, just intimacy with her, that whenever we have an opportunity to be drawn close to each other and see into each other, so it's so much bigger than just the physical aspect of it, but look through the scripture and seeing that worship means to be intimate, it means to draw close to God.

So look at it in a way that it keeps it pure.

Because unfortunately, it has been corrupted, it's been corrupted by the enemy.

And I think a lot of times we we we allow, we allow the tree of knowledge of good and evil to kind of define and skew what intimacy is supposed to be.

But we have to get back to what God's original intent was for it.

It's this beautiful thing that God has provided for us, but we have to have the proper filter for it.

Looking at it through the proper lens.

So this is just some encouragement for those of us who are married, but then even so for those of us who are single, maybe there's been a corrupted version of it.

I want to encourage you guys in here right now, like the the enemy does not have the reproductive ability to create anything when he can corrupt what God has created.

So we have to make sure that we allow God's grace to redefine our perspective when it comes to intimacy, because if not, we can bring a broken perspective into a union that God has blessed and we can carry back and that he never intended for us to carry.

I want to I want to ask this final question, um, and I want to hear from everybody on this one because I think this is one that can kind of speak to a lot of the singles that are in the room, um, and it also could be encouragement for us.

Um what if there's one thing that you could tell the single version of yourself, what would it be right now?

I will see.

Um when when I first met Lisa, I was in the military, and again, I didn't have a dad.

I didn't have I didn't work with a dad, I grew up with my mom and my grandparents.

And so I didn't have a good model or a good voice speaking into me.

Um and so when I met Lisa, I was just blown away, and I couldn't believe that I found this girl that was so perfect that I felt like, man, she could have come like five years later, you know, I didn't want to find cool people right now, I didn't want to settle down right now, or I wasn't ready for that.

And um and so I was so caught up in trying to please her, to to, you know in the dating stages you just want to be the best, you want to put your best foot forward.

And so what I did was just trying to be everything she wanted me to be.

And I didn't, I I kind of put away or recollected a little bit of who I really was and some of my flaws and some of my background, and so it took a long time.

I mean, that's why we kind of did it for five years.

You know, it took a while to review all this stuff.

So I would say if I can go back and tell myself, talk to myself, I would say, you know what, Tariq, show up who you really are.

You know, be yourself, um, not in an abrasive way or oh, this is me take or leading, but you know what?

You know, uh it's it's just it's just being being myself in a way where she would uh she could receive me, she could res she could understand, she could see me for my flaws, she could see.

I kept a lot of those things covered up, and a lot of things came up you know while we were married and stuff like kind of.

And don't deal with them.

But I would think that if I can go back, I'll say, you know, it's hard to be yourself, we'll be honest people, but tell her, you know what, we really don't like that.

That's not country musicians from Colorado will ride in family ranch and all that stuff from the Caribbean, you know.

She talking country music and stuff.

I'm like, yeah, that's cool, I can stand country music.

Stupid things like that, you know?

But I realized, and I just, yeah, just she likes that, that she likes it, you know.

But I would just say other things like that, that's what I would go back and tell myself is you know what?

Be yourself, uh bring bring all of you to the relationship.

Bring bring all of you to the relationship.

God will wake your ball off.

He will.

You know, uh that's what I would say to myself.

Um I I would dig into values a lot more.

Like I would dig into what do you what do you anticipate your future looking like?

And I know you sometimes you can talk about kids, but like digging in just a lot more, so kind of into what you said of like um where where do you see yourself in 10 years?

Where do you say not in a goal way, but like, what does your ideal family look like?

How do they interact in the house?

Like, what are you really what are you afraid of?

Like, what are the things I don't know, I just feel like it would be it's it's like that, it goes back to intimacy about just being fully known.

You kind of depend on that a little bit of just like are we really on the same, do we really we're very attracted to each other, but are we really on the same path of what we want for our teachers?

Can we really be honest about that?

Yeah, and just digging into that a lot more to save a lot of pain, but also to make sure you're choosing the right person.

Right, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Um, one of the teachings I had about 10 years ago was a little changing for me that I wish I would have known when I first got married.

Or even really dealing with a lot of people.

Um, it was about how God made Adam.

And evidently Adam, and here I am.

I'm not a preacher, I may get this wrong, so tell me.

But uh, you know, he took a rib out of Adam and he made woman.

And the teacher that I was listening to goes, Did you ever think that you would look at your husband or maybe your boyfriend and you just think, Are you clueless?

You know, do you not get it?

She said, It's because you have that other rib.

And you bring that part to him.

And that really changed my thinking because I thought if that's such a good way to think that when I think Joe is just clueless on what I'm talking about, I think, well, and you do that to me too.

But it goes vice versa.

Uh but you know, to say, okay, you know, it's because I have that missing rib of his that I can bring to him.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

I wish I'd known that in the game, because when we were first married, don't ask me why tomato soup was an issue in our life, but at that time we made tomato soup and he liked it with milk, and I did it with water.

And I didn't mix the soup up.

And God gave me this example of you about it the other day.

I didn't mix the milk with the tomato soup as well as he liked, and he was nice, he was pretty nice, and he just kind of said, you know, the next time if you don't mind, would you mix it more?

And I just looked at him and at that time I might post.

I have my family background, he has his family background, and we learned to blend them together, and I now make perfect tomatoes.

I first said it's a part of getting married long and telling no more.

I can't answer the question that I didn't know the one.

I don't need to qualify to say what I would tell myself except you know, get married to know Jesus.

I just think you love this person.

Gotta go in and love you.

What you said about talking and knowing all the values.

I remember when we first went to the peak picture at what six or eight months went dating.

This conversation on how we raised our kids.

And it was almost a meaningful conversation.

Yeah.

And I said she said she walked in that knowing she would marry.

You know, we dated for another two years and then they were asked for three years.

But, you know, I would just have the conversations and know that the words for you are this generation.

You all suffer from anxiety from social media.

And uh, you know, when you commit your life to your partner and to God, it doesn't matter what the world thinks.

And put your trust there and you'll know.

Um okay, so nobody's gonna be saying that I think something I would have said to my single self back in the day would be um to not make excuses for things that are healthy in a relationship because I would kind of sweep into the road, it's fine.

This is fine.

Um but just because you get nervous to get better.

So if it's unhealthy now, um, we need to work on that stuff first before somebody gets married.

Um this is not a relationship with being mad, this is like a past relationship, but um I think that's what I would say.

And a little plug really quick.

Um, if you're dating or going to get engaged, um, I recommend going to pre-marital counseling because a lot of things that we've talked about.

We took a celebration pre-marital counseling.

It's called Symbus, saving your marriage before it starts.

Um you can talk to anybody about it on staff, but we took it and it helped a lot because we talked about some of these things like conflict and intimacy.

Um, things that we maybe kind of thought about, but there were specific questions that were asked in that that really helped us kind of uh set up a framework or foundation of how we can build on this when we got married.

So I recommend that.

Yeah, uh I would say I have a lot of really like messed up relationships, and um I would just say, like before Jen, like Jen's honestly my best friend.

So um, and I really mean that, like she is my best friend, and but I would say that just because you love someone doesn't mean that they're compatible and that you should marry them, and that's really hard to say, and that's really even hard to hear because there are people that or you may be in a relationship and you really do love that person, but it may not be from God and it may not be compatible and it may not be your spouse.

So just really like that's what I would say, because every time that I would quote unquote fall of, alright, this is the one, you know what I mean, or what it may be.

So, and then secondly, the best advice I ever got was find someone that you can hang out with for the next 60 years.

Like, literally, because that's what you're gonna be doing.

You're gonna be hanging out.

So, if you can't hang out with the person, like, what are you doing?

So, I think that's kind of what I want to tell myself too.

Like, who can I hang out with for the next 60 years?

Um, to find people who I can model my relationship after because I didn't have it growing up.

And so instead of taking the long route in our relationship, we learned the hard way of how to do things instead of having someone who's experienced all this stuff that can help us out.

And so get connected to someone who has lived life that is much older than you, that has wisdom, biblical wisdom, not just natural wisdom, but physical wisdom, because you're gonna go through some things that the enemy is gonna try to separate for you and your spouse, and so, or you and your relationship, and so I would I would suggest that.

And now I'll I'll close with this.

I would tell my single self, if someone shows you that they are crazy, believe them.

Just just just believe them.

Like if you're seeing signs of it, believe them.

Like, no.

No, I believe it's showing you're crazy, so I believe you're not going to be like, No, I'm not seeing this is this is what you pretty much think about the parking lot.

This this was recorded, the remote was recorded.

So this will be up on our podcast, and what about the whole quick section on our on our on our podcast now?

That's going to be exclusively for all of our quick classes, that you guys can go back and send me your friends and listen to it later.

Um, so this is going to be our new national rhythm.

So I'm so grateful for all of you guys.

But what I want to do is I want to ask if if you guys can pray a blessing over us.

We've got singles in the room, we've got engaged, we got dated, we got marriage in the room.

But if you guys could just use that elderly blessing on all of us, I think that'd be a great way for us to wrap up.

God, I thank you for this time.

This evening together, Lord, the panel members, they're awesome, oh God.

And thank you, God, this is you.

But uh that you plan in each person, your God.

In Jesus' name I declare that every person ran along with your God, that you plan a great descendant, and that Lord, you have a perfect spouse and a perfect life.

I thank you, God, that uh your goal is always to make us like you.

Maybe it takes a little bit longer than a lifetime, or maybe happens together.

But God, I just decree and declare a blessing over these people where they're in the right relationship.

And remember that married before you transform the two of them into the image of Christ.

Glory to the Lord.

This work is done by the Lord, the Holy Spirit, not by self-will.

For each person here, Lord, we seek you with all the heart, mind, soul, and strength, and cry out, change me that they are changed.

Thank you, God, for the power of your work.

The Holy Spirit connect heaven.

I thank you, God, for the depth breath and the height of your love for them, oh God, that you love them, that you don't want to harm them.

I also pray when you bring the great wisdom or devastating life to the enemy that wants to rob them with gifts, like the trend gifts.

God, I asked every person here where I look to you and receive the gifts that you have for them.

So God, I thank you before for the blessing, a long cross for his life, oh God, that they know you, they know him who was funding.

Thank you for the time that we share your love and praise.

Jesus' name.