A Conversation On Race In America

Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

Thank you so much for listening today.

We hope it encourages you and inspires you.

Here's today's message.

Come on.

My man.

What's going on?

Every time I say that, I I always think of um I always think of Denzel.

As you should.

Which which I I think I think when I look at you and I think of Denzel, that's appropriate.

We're yeah, it's about the same.

Which Denzel would you choose?

Like if you were to choose a a Denzel of all of the Denzels, which would you choose?

Now, like in what sense?

Like are you saying like like as my favorite Denzel?

Like the Denzel that that like okay, like man, that's that's my inner Denzel.

Like which Denzel?

Like what's kind of like I don't know.

Now it got more it got more complicated, right?

It got more complicated.

Uh what man, just your let's go just favorite.

Just favorite.

Okay.

So it's very fitting.

It's very fitting for our conversation.

But hey man, X, Malcolm X.

I feel like he I feel like I mean it is I feel like he he he knocked that role out of the park.

Like he he totally crushed it.

Obviously, training day just showed a range, but I I honestly feel um, I just feel like you know Malcolm X, man, the way that he kind of evolved as a character was like, man, I see I see range.

I see some people in there saying remember the Titans.

I gotta assume that's probably your your Alexandria Virginia folks.

Um which I understand that.

It's it's there's tie-in to TC Williams.

I get it.

I get it.

Equalizer, that was good, Justin.

I do I do rock with Equalizer.

Hey, I'll never forget the first time I met Pastor Deshaun.

Uh-huh.

And we were you know driving around, and I'll I'll I lost all sense of anything else once he started talking to me about how he went to T C Williams and that one of his like teachers uh like was Coach Boone, and then like in middle school, Petey was like his PE coach.

Yeah.

I I was like, that's all he needed to ever tell me.

I was like, tell me more stories about Remember the Titans.

He's got a job forever.

But my favorite one, my favorite one was this, because I guess um Pastor Michael was in was in high school when the movie came out, Remember the Titans.

And so you can imagine, you can imagine you can imagine if that's your school.

Like that's I mean, like you're at TC Williams, and then a movie, a blockbuster hit comes out on your school, and it comes out around homecoming, the whole studio, and like there was this big and they lost their homecoming game.

Yes, yes.

Like, like the homecoming, the other team couldn't be like, yo, man, we're gonna just let them ride.

Like it's this is our moment, like this is this will be poetic to let them win.

They're like, nah, bro.

The greatest homecoming, the greatest homecoming upset ever.

Yeah, just crush their dreams.

Oh man, you know what?

Saying this, man, like I'll say this.

I have I have not watched that with my son yet.

So I do gotta watch that with Caleb.

I I think that's something that we probably need to like make space for.

I think it's on Disney Plus, man.

So I gotta make room to actually watch everything.

It's one of those things, whenever I turn on Disney Plus, I'm keenly aware that Disney Disney owns a lot.

Oh, for sure.

They're they're okay.

I live in Orlando, I'm very well aware they're impacting the city, not to mention just globally, for sure.

That's true.

Well, hey man, uh let's uh let's kind of dive in.

I appreciate you um man carving some time out, some space.

Um and as you and I have talked before, really our our hope, our hope for this is kind of to go public, um, just really on conversations that you and I have um a ton in terms of just things that we kind of talk about.

And so um I know we've kind of uh sketched out kind of an agenda and what we want to accomplish tonight.

And um, Sandra, are there any like framing sort of statements you want to make kind of on the onset?

Um I I know probably people that as they're tuning in, you know, the expectation I'm sure is that we're gonna talk about any and everything.

And I think I think we're gonna do a little bit of that.

Um but from your your vantage point, what are some what are some things that that everyone kind of tuning in right now can um they can be expecting us to talk about um and and that sort of thing, just so we can kind of lay out the lay of the land.

I think man, I it's like you're you're having a conversation and and it's like so so where are we going with it beyond that?

So I think there's a there's obviously we're in this heightened state, and and we've kind of been in this this place where just there's just this existence of of tension and these moments that we've been aware of over the past several years.

They've just kind of been there.

Um but I think for for you and I specifically, like we we have a friendship that is that is true and authentic.

We've had these conversations when no one's around, conversations over the phone, conversations when we're in each other's presence.

But we honestly felt, man, we we had like this Esther moment where we're like, man, like I wonder if for such a time that God has knit us together, for us to be able to have a conversation, then maybe somehow um both of our journeys, both of our experiences can create and shine some light to something that can help all of us move forward a little bit.

So while I think it's really hard to kind of land, like, hey, by the end of this conversation, everybody's gonna stop being racist and the world's gonna be a better place.

I think that's that's a very that's a very broad, um, hopeful thing.

But I think ultimately it's just to shed light and to hopefully give us all some next steps on just kind of so what do we do from here?

So I think that's kind of like what's been my thought process.

I've been praying about it all day, and it's like, man, so we're gonna have a great conversation.

There's been tons of conversations, but why are we having it?

One, it's just two friends having a conversation, right?

Um, and I think that God has knit us together for such a time as this.

And so I'm sure we'll get into some of that during this, but it's really just let's have a conversation and then see what are some of the next steps in our respective areas and then in the people who are listening.

I'll I'll love that because again, you know, you and I we're we're husbands first, um, we're fathers second.

Um somewhere down the list, we're pastors.

You know, that that's on the that's on the list.

And and so again, there's responsibility in each of those spheres.

And so I think even at some point, we'll probably talk about each of those spheres for us, what it means for us, yeah, what it means for us to kind of as we're we're navigating this.

But what I love that you said is it's an important point.

I I'm gonna assume that everybody on on this knows us and they're aware of our friendship, but they they may not be aware um that this actually goes back, you know, um three plus years now.

Um and and you and I, like I said, it's not a it's not a fake friendship, it's not a proximity friendship.

Um it's um it's genuine.

And you use the phrase, and and I've used it before as well, like the Lord has knit us together.

There's a it I've had friends in my life from friendships where it kind of went fast and you you you feel like you're connected.

Um it is it's not normal to feel, I think when you're older, it's not normal to feel uh like for another person.

Like like I think you and I feel um for each other that it's a genuine um it's a brotherhood.

Um if if you're if you're winning, I'm winning.

Um and then the opposite of that is true.

If if I take an L, I know you feel it, and then vice versa.

And so for me, I think that's that highlights a ton of it.

I mean, we could go in, you know, we could go in on that.

And I think the reason why you and I have these conversations is because of our relationship and because of our desire our genuine love for each other.

Um and I I think at the onset, I think that's huge.

We're coming from this, not from uh political vantage points.

We're not coming at this from um what is what is a uh commentary on what a news outlet is saying.

You and I are coming at this as husbands, fathers, pastors, um, and then deep friends.

And in the midst of all that, we trust Jesus deeply with not just our salvation, but also not saving us uh from something, but actually saving us for something.

Um and I think you and I really feel like this is the sort of thing um you know that the Lord has saved us from and for, that we could, you know, shine a light on moments where uh there are parts of the body of Christ that uh that are feeling wounded and they're feeling vulnerable.

And just in the same way that our body responds when we have an injury and we protect that, um, we want to make sure that we're doing the same uh kind of in these spots.

And so uh, man, I want to um go ahead and like toss it to you.

I I know we kind of talked through this, and I want to I want to let you you go first um on this.

I know we said we wanted to start kind of with the um the video uh that that all came that came to light last week, um, and really just talk in terms of our um man, what was your reaction um when when you saw that?

Man, I think um, bro, I think for for me, I was just I was numb.

I I think it I think that's the best, like if I could just give a single word answer, the response would just be just numbness.

Um, because I wasn't made aware of the I didn't even know about the the incident prior to the video.

I mean, because honestly, like you you just hear about so much, there's so many different things that are happening.

Um, and I kind of equate life to being like an internet browser where we just have so many tabs open, and so you just have so many tabs of like the latest crisis and the latest drama and the latest brokenness and the latest racism.

And so they're all just on this one continuous browser.

So for me, it I didn't I didn't know about it.

It was like it may have been running in the background, it may have been pulling from energy, but I didn't know it was there.

But the video, when I saw it, it came to the forefront of my mind, and I was like, it just it just created this numbness.

And I think and I think there was there's a numbness that that that is birthed as a res you know, we have like this this pain point, this reaction to it.

Um, but but there's there's a spot where we can look at numbness as a place where you almost become desensitized.

And so for me, I I really had to I really had to pause and begin to reflect and say, okay, like I I'm seeing this traumatic, I'm seeing this traumatic video, and I couldn't understand like why I was so numb.

I couldn't honestly understand why I wasn't actually more incensed and more angry.

And and and as I kind of thought through it a little bit, what I realized is that um unfortunately for the African American, this isn't this isn't new.

So I think that there's a spot for me that I had to like literally like process through.

And I'll give you a real brief timeline because I really want to hear from you.

But but for me, you know, I I recall when I was living up there in DC with you, man, going through the um the African American History Museum.

And so it's it's just this incredible, just this amazing structure that walks you through the uh African American experience.

But but literally, if you follow it in the sequential order which they recommend is that you go through the basement first, and ultimately you start in the basement and then you go up to the top.

And so, as you can imagine, it's talking about the basement of African American history, and then it goes to the top where you start to see a little bit more breathing room.

But the basement is obviously slavery.

And so you're walking through this basement, and and there's actual pictures, there's actual images of the slave trade.

You're seeing the you're seeing women who have been beaten and family separated, you're seeing this, you're seeing actual like literature showing um how human beings are being sold and and just like how there's a price attached to it.

So you walk through all that stuff and you and you see these images.

So that's that's Marco number one.

You fast forward and you get into the civil rights era.

So now like slavery is over, but you're in the civil rights era, and and now there's stark images.

There's images of of African Americans being shot with water hoses.

There's images that you see of um of German shepherds being being you know put on on African Americans.

You see images, like literal video footage of African Americans just wanting to sit at the same table being beaten unrecognizably.

You see those images.

You see, you see images of of people like Emmett Till.

And there's a part where you actually walk into the and you actually can see like his actual coffin.

And and and for those who don't know the story of it, but just go and look, but it was it was a very visible, and you can see the picture of what they did to this young man because he he spoke out of turn or said something to a white woman, which is still being refuted.

But you see that, and there's no justice for that.

So you you see all these things on a day-to-day basis, um, and then you fast forward.

And now this is where we get into like our modern era.

You see images such as um Rodney King being beaten, you see images of of these other things that have happened.

So then you start to look at the list of things that have happened um currently, whether it be images of Eric Gardner's, whether it be stories with Trayvon Martin and George Davis.

And so for me, it's just a long list of things that you have seen.

So you just get to a point where it's like, well, yeah, I've seen this before.

It's like watching a replay of a movie, like, oh, I've seen this, I know exactly how this plays out.

Um, will there be an arrest?

I don't know.

Is there ever going to be any response to it?

I just I don't know.

So you start to get to this place, man, where you just you just stop expecting justice when injustice is the norm.

Like you just kind of like, okay, well, that's it.

Because when I did see the video, maybe there's a defense mechanism that began to dwell inside of me where it's like, if I can protect my feelings from fully surrendering to this, I can keep myself from being enraged by the lack of action from it.

Good heavens, Keith.

The so like you when you when you started off with that word numb, like it got me thinking in terms of like you and I've talked about this before, but it really kind of came back to mind like when you hurt, um, I don't know if you guys know this, but Keith hurt his ankle a few years ago.

Um, but when you hey Charlie, if you get it right, I didn't hurt my ankle.

I I I broke my ankle in a devastating manner.

Tell the story right if we're gonna tell it.

I apologize.

I apologize.

Keith was Keith was saving of a woman from certain apparel and children and hey, listen, exactly.

And Charlie, listen, she was a pregnant white woman because I'm all about making sure everyone is taken care of.

Oh gosh.

Help us, Lori.

Um, but when when you have an injury, your your body responds, and there will be swelling, and there's gonna be swelling around the the injury.

It's going to do that to protect further damage, but also what the body's like responding to, it there it produces a numbness.

So it doesn't mean that you're not hurt, and it doesn't mean that it's not serious, it just means it's your body's way of counterbalancing the trauma.

Yeah, and so I like as you're as you're saying that, it's funny how we always talk about like with our kids, we don't want them to become desensitized, and we don't want to overexpose them to images, thoughts that are going to um disrupt uh their development, disrupt their ability to have compassion, and yet for our our community, you know, here in America, there is a long history of these sorts of things.

And and I want to ask this question, Keith, before I go any further, because I think it's important, because I've heard a couple people say this in different outlets, where they they talk about progress, they talk about in terms of okay, when you when you look at you know the the civil rights movement as you were kind of cataloging some of those experience, you know, those events, okay, but we're not there anymore, as if there's this some sort of progress that has gotten us to a great spot.

How how can can you just help those that might be wrestling with, I thought, I thought we got past some of this.

Yeah.

And I know that that question, when people ask it, there's an exposure that happens with that question.

They're exposing variety of things, but just kind of help maybe respond to that.

Somebody's like, Oh, I thought we had gotten past this, or I thought we had um some of those things with a rear view mirror.

Because you know, you when we when we go and look at a a Smithsonian, the thought is that that it's historic.

Yeah.

Um, but but obviously we're seeing here and now that these things are still in play and and it affects you know part of our of our society, affects our friends, family.

Um, what can you say to that?

I think, man, I I think we can we can lull ourselves into a sense of peace when we look at the illusion of progress.

So we we we we we feel like, oh yeah, there's there's progress, like there's African Americans that live in my neighborhood, and by all means, we had an African American in the White House.

So, like, man, let's glad that's over.

And so I think that we we we begin to really feel that we have moved forward in a in a way that we really dealt with it.

So here's what I think we have to understand.

We have to we have to really begin to have a pure definition of what we're talking about when we say racism.

Because what I can tell you is I I mentioned um I mentioned the civil rights era.

This is this is what's going through my mind and what has gone through my mind over the years.

With some of the images that I have seen during the civil rights era, I've seen images of lynchings of African Americans hanging from trees.

And what I've seen is a bunch of people all around taking pictures as if they just caught something in the African desert.

Like, okay, like so you you're you're hanging a human being up.

And so here's my image.

I'm seeing an entire family as young as two years old, maybe as old as 50.

Wow.

It is not hard for me to conceive that those individuals, that hatred, it still is alive today.

So I often wonder and say, so I wonder what that kid's job is right now.

I wonder if he's in a position of power where something that has been indoctrinated into him, he continues to perpetuate that in any area that he has influence in.

Because some of those very same people have gone into politics.

Some of those same people created systems that, and so we believe that because we signed a document that somehow we eradicated this hatred that is a matter of the heart and deeper in sin.

I think there's an illusion of there's an illusion of progress that we have to get past.

And then when you mention, man, this is something I've been wrestling with.

When you mention like the Smithsonian, things like that, Rearview Mirror, I just I want to know what is the what are what are the rules for history?

What are the rules for remembrance?

Because I've heard this, I've heard for so often, man, I was in a past, that was so long ago.

So so let me let me let me respond to that.

Yeah, our faith, our faith is literally built in the concept of remembrance.

So you and I will exhaustively spend our time studying a book, like analyzing the life of someone who lived hundreds, even thousands of years ago, looking at those principles and applying them to our lives in a way that is meaningful so that we can move forward.

We can we can every single year, July 4th, we celebrate the birth of this nation.

We say, man, we're gonna remember this.

Memorial Day every year.

We remember those who have fought and who have died for this country.

9-11, every single year, we remember that that egregious terroristic act that happened um on American soil.

So my question is why is it that we are so okay with remembering everything?

But when it comes to the African American experience, that's the place where we put an expiration date on it.

Come on.

We put an expiration date on that.

Like, let's not talk about slavery anymore, that's in the past.

Let's not talk about Jim Crow laws, that's in the past.

But hey, let's talk about when the country was founded because that's a part of who the pillar of our existence.

Right.

How is it that somehow the African American experience is the only experience that we put an expiration date on a remembrance of it?

That's the thing that we have to begin to ask ourselves.

And it's good Lord, Keith.

You're preaching.

Hey man.

You're preaching, you're preaching.

I mean, it is it, I mean, there's space, I mean there's space to say because it hasn't been redeemed.

Yes.

And it hasn't been, it hasn't been um reconciled.

It hasn't, it hasn't, it's it's still the hanging, it's the hanging death.

And it's one of those things if you if you it's easy to say, because here's what it does.

If I if I if I put it in the rearview mirror, right?

Somebody puts it in the rear view mirror, now my responsibility isn't to it because progress is forward.

So I want to keep going forward.

But what you said is was was so wonderful.

Like the illusion of progress, it's not in the rearview mirror, it's actually in the car.

Yes.

And so as you're driving away, it's still it's it's it's like it's like eating Cheetos on your couch.

You have them on an evening, but they're there for months down the road.

Like you can find those things.

And so I think for for for so many, they they want to, and and they've they live in a space where where we we have broad brushstroked the idea of racism.

Now, again, I I know not everybody on this on this you know deal watching this is you know gonna key in on all of this or they're gonna have disagreeing points, and and that's fine.

Again, it's me and you kicking it.

And the reality is I think because people get comfortable with a broad definition, meaning if it's if it's not violent, then it's not racist.

Yeah.

So then I can reduce racism and things that are actually happening in our nation.

I only have to worry about the cataloging of the violent, and then everything else is ignored, and then I can begin to look at the violence and go, well, maybe we are getting a little bit better at that.

When the reality is there's a thought pattern and there's there's a there's seeds of it that have to be dealt with, and I think it requires us actually being being honest.

Those of us that are that are not in the midst of this, where we are not experiencing um racism.

And we're gonna talk a little bit about this because uh again, I know your experience.

You and I have had a couple of of encounters where I've gotten a chance to see your vantage point.

Um, and it's been uh it's been alarming, uh, to be quite honest with you, just to hear some of the conversations.

And um so I I want to kind of respond to that first question if I can in terms of like my initial response, and I think what's kind of leading us to this space here.

Um things went through my mind.

I was really uh I was I was shocked that it happened in February, and I just I just was made aware of it last week.

I I I can find out what Someone ate in a marketplace in the Far East in real time.

That's what it feels like.

And for whatever reason, I mean there's we can we we we can you know we don't have to guess at whatever reason, but not seeing it and then and then realizing that there were like a couple of different edits of the video.

And so then when you find the full video and you watch it, it um like it it hit me.

And I I kind of just sat in in a chair in my office and I I kind of sat there and I was I was I was dumbfounded at what I saw because it actually made me remember a move a movie scene.

Um and if you've ever seen uh A Time to Kill with uh Matthew McConaughey and Samuel L.

Jackson, um the opening scene uh is a pickup truck um chasing down a young black girl, um, and it and there's just a a savage um attack.

And that's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw that was man, this is not I I can't believe I'm seeing this.

This isn't cinema.

This isn't a depiction of something that happened 45 years ago.

Yeah, it's not a reenactment.

This isn't a reenactment.

No, no, this is this is this is these are this isn't play.

We're gonna play in games.

This is real, real and then this thought came to me, and this is what kind of disturbment I set with it.

I um my first thought was that could have been you.

Wow, and then the thought was uh that could have been Anthony, or that could have been Deshaun, um that could have been Caleb, that could have been your son, you know, Keith Jr., that could have been your son Caleb.

That could have been any of Anthony's sons.

And it it hit it hit me in a way that while when I see other things before, I do see the injustice, and I see those things, and I'm I'm I'm angered by them because as a follower of Jesus, whenever I see anything that's outside of kingdom, I go, nope, that doesn't belong.

That's anti-kingdom, therefore I'm anti-that.

Yeah, this hit me in a way where I was like it was just different.

And so um I end up you know getting in touch with you pretty quick.

And yeah, it was just it was wild.

And so something for me, um, I'm not trying to over-dramatize this.

There was something in me that I it just kind of uh like it was like a light switch.

And because you and I have had conversations where we did feel we feel like the Lord, the Lord has knit us together, and it's not just like for fun, but that there is something that will come of that through that in it.

Um and and we've talked about these things, but we also knew that that we were waiting for the Lord to kind of give us a nudge.

We we don't reforce it.

Exactly.

And and I think when I reached out to you and you're like, no, I feel the same thing.

Yeah, and so this is us kind of just even exploring it.

Um I want to I want to say something to what you just said, man, about like um about you know the the the the visual of it and just kind of like your reaction to it and some of the things we talked about.

I think I think one of the things that um that I that I consider when we we think about that imagery and and what that all looks like is for me, my even even after, you know, we we kind of progress a little bit, we see the outrage, we see all the social media posts, everybody's talking about it, and then you start to kind of like, and then there's that moment where the hey, there's an arrest.

So for me, I'm honestly like, okay, that's cool, but I'm still like cautious in how I even celebrate that because I've seen so many instances where an arrest does not mean a conviction, first of all.

Secondly, um, I'm also very aware that for the African American, it's the it's the only culture of people that I know that can be vilified for being the victims.

Like you can you can be killed, and then we begin to dissect every movement in your life in order to justify why you were killed.

And I've and I've seen it so often where it's like, hey man, if you if you hey he probably should have stopped, or hey, he probably like you're finding ways to try to justify what happened.

And I've seen it across the gamut in so many different areas.

So there's an area where I'm I'm I'm very like hesitant, and I found myself thinking about how when when I see so many of us, bro, like you, you know you and I have talked about like what is the response of the church in moments like this?

How do we how do we lend our voices?

And and you and I being individuals and looking at those categories you mentioned, but we're also pastors and and not trying to be divisive, but trying to acknowledge things and literally beginning to recognize that that church has somehow become so entangled with with politics that when you would when you acknowledge a social pain, people believe you're making a political statement.

And it's like, man, how how do we get to a point where me?

Like I said, we have I mean, we got the receipts on this, folks.

Yeah, um let's talk about it.

A few years ago, when when everything went down in Charlottesville, yeah, and and I remember you and I, we we made a statement, you know, we made made a statement on a Sunday morning, called our church to pray, uh, grabbed hands.

Um, because again, for us, this is not a political issue.

This is um people in our church, we don't look the same.

And so we don't we don't get to celebrate that on one hand and then and then ignore when part of our community is hurting because what's taking place is providing an echo for them that is not just historic, but it's actually present.

And so we we got to a space, we we prayed, did all that.

It was it was anything but political.

I mean, ask my dad.

He watched it, and he was like, wasn't political.

So if my dad says not political, I believe my dad.

Like yes, for sure.

But he we had people email us, come up to us, like, I can't believe you guys, you guys have an agenda, and all and it's like shut your freaking mouth.

Like, it's not like yes, so now we want to politicize something so that I can ignore any responsibility to be a good neighbor.

That's the key.

And so so for me, the the thing for for us that I that I love the conversation you and I've had, the the Bible, the Bible gives us plenty in terms of how we engage these things.

Like the good Samaritan, it's not enough to pass by, it's not enough to be aware that there's a wounded person, but you have to enter into that space, you bind up the wounds, and then you care for that person until they're well, like and you're and you're using your resources to do it, like you're left by your influence, you're using what you have to be a benefit to someone else.

And what I and what I love about this Samaritan narrative is that when it talks about like the religious, when he's kind of contextualizing religion, it says that they were they crossed, they were on the other side.

So here's what that means we're on the other side of this issue.

We're like we're we're on the other side, like with that because we've allowed it to become so so politicized.

And and here's something else that I saw, man, because I I I thought about this.

You know that you know the miracle with the with the fish and loaves, right?

And and I've shared I've shared this thought, but in a whole different context.

I never thought it would come full circle in this way.

But you know how there's that moment where you know Jesus is preaching, disciples come up like, hey man, it's been gone for a long time.

Send them off into the villages to let them go and fend for themselves, essentially.

Let them go and get something to eat and let them find somewhere to rest.

We've been out here for a long time.

And Jesus says, Of course, you give them something to eat.

But here's the thing they were able to identify a need, but they were so quick to dismiss it.

Send them off to go, let them deal with it on their own.

And what I believe happens a lot of times, and these were disciples, followers of Jesus, they're in close proximity to him.

They've seen him operate, they know his heart for people, they know his mission statement from Isaiah 61 and Luke 4.

The Spirit of the Lord's upon me for the oppressed.

Like they knew that Jesus came to help those people who are oppressed.

And literally, when they saw people who were oppressed, their initial reaction was, let them go fend for themselves.

And I think that what happens in the church is that we've gotten to a place where we've gotten so political and allow so many things to infuse our faith that we're quick to identify problems, but we displace them and and and send people off to go fend for themselves.

Hey man, like, hey, if you would have just worked a little bit harder, maybe you would get a better job, so go fend for yourself.

If you if you just would have, if you just would have took care of paying your bills and your credit would be jacked up, so go fend for yourself.

But Jesus says you give them something to eat, like you are a part of the solution.

And I never see anywhere where Jesus begins to get into an evaluation of their history to determine their present situation.

He was simply called to come into their lives and they're present to move them into the future.

And I'm wondering where that we as a church feel it's our responsibility to do a diagnosis of someone's past in order to help them to get to their future.

Only the new like, you know what I mean?

We're so we're so off track.

We've missed it so much.

And we're we're afraid to speak out on things because we're afraid of how it's gonna hurt our platforms or the people that we may hurt, but we're simply talking about the kingdom of God.

So I wonder if there's moments where we just allowed our our our our faith to be arrested by things that are kingdom.

And I think what it does, I mean he what you said there is a meal.

I mean, that wasn't a s that wasn't a snack word, that was a meal word.

Like it's easy to not it's here's what it is it's easy religion to entrust it to some supernatural force to take care of all of it.

Unfortunately, we don't see that that's actually the way in which the gospel of the kingdom of God uh handles business.

Jesus doesn't sit on a throne in eternity and bark out orders to make all things right.

He puts on flesh and he moves into the neighborhood.

He himself taking on their burden so that they might experience life and life to the full.

Here's the problem that I have when when the political conversation begins to swell, as if that is going to be the solution.

Let me just say this clear, and I'll speak for me.

I'm not gonna speak for you, Keith.

I'll speak for I'll come in after you.

You go ahead, man.

I am not dependent upon any man-made system to provide eternal and supernatural peace.

That is not something that the people of God get to outsource.

Come on.

We step in and we begin carrying on the mantle of our Savior of making all things new.

Yes.

And if the political structures want to follow, they can join the parade.

But I'm not waiting for them to be a good neighbor.

One of the things I've always found fascinating in the Samaritan narrative, many would say that what the Samaritan used to bring healing to the wounded individual were some of the same things that you would have found in the temple.

Oil.

Come on.

So it what it means is our religious trappings aren't what actually is making anyone whole if they're sitting in the temple.

But if you'll put them in somebody's hands that are willing to do the work and enter into the pain.

But here's the thing, you and I know this.

We've had kids and we've had to bandage their wounds before.

If I'm gonna bandage somebody's wounds, I can't be nervous that their blood's gonna get on me.

Come on, say that.

And so that's some at some point, Keith, I will, if you'll let me preach this word.

At some point, if we're if we're not if we're not willing to get into a messy conversation or say something to get clarity that may expose us and our ignorance.

You you and I have talked about this before.

We're kind of we're benefited the doubt people.

We're I'm gonna trust the best in people.

So if somebody asks a question and they don't know the answer and it exposes that they're they're ignorant in these sort of things, man, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to come against somebody.

Man, I want to help them understand that this is what the kingdom of God is about.

And and you and I, as followers of Jesus, first and foremost, before we're shepherds, we're sheep.

Yeah, when I read the gospels, this is as foundational of a thing as anything that were created in the image of God.

And at the moment that I do not value someone as created in the image of God at the same level at which I value myself, I dehumanize myself and I also dehumanize them by not recognizing that they have the divine image within them.

That's not New Testament, that's not prophetic literature, that's Genesis 126.

And here's the thing with this in the beginning of our story, we're creating we're all created with the divine image.

This is Bible to me.

Yep.

But here's here's the here's the thing that I believe, because I agree with you with 1000%.

But again, looking at looking at history and how we've gotten here, here's the thing that has been incredibly alarming to me.

Bro, do you know that that the clan members were also pastors?

They were also going to church.

They're reading from the exact same Bible as you and I, but they've allowed their minds to be fused with some distorted demonic concept of the interpretation of scripture that has allowed that to read into the way that they see the word of God.

So you and I are looking at it through a lens of the kingdom and wholeness.

But here's what I think this is I think that that's what happens when we allow our faith to become compromised.

So I'm I'm looking at I'm looking at like I'm looking at Daniel.

And so I love the idea of Daniel like sitting at the king's table but not eating the king's meat.

He's he's resolved inside of himself.

Like I made up my mind that I may be in this culture, I may be in this world, but I'm not of it.

And what I truly believe, and again, I don't want to keep harping on like politics because it's it's so much bigger than that, but I believe that a lot of times when we allow like the way that we read the Bible and the way that we see people through the lens of politics, we're we're we're basically sitting at the king's table and we're eating his meat, the meat of politics, the meat of justified um oppression.

Those are the things that we have to make sure that we don't allow ourselves to continue to eat from.

So we have to say, like, yeah, I'm in this world, and maybe I can be a really devout, kingdom-minded Christian inside of the context of whatever my political passions are.

But here's what I've learned about politics: it is rooted in compromise.

And I think we have to recognize that okay, if I'm if I'm passionate about this, what do I have to give up in order to accomplish that?

How do I have to look at people to justify that?

And here's why I think compromise can be such a dangerous thing.

When when God comes to Moses and begins to tell them, let my people go, and all the stuff that he's leading Moses to do, and he goes before Pharaoh, three different times, Pharaoh comes back with compromises.

How far do y'all want to go?

Proximity.

Who do you want to take with you?

With people to separate families, and then resources, power.

So literally, we're seeing this demonic attack where whenever people are trying to advance the kingdom of God in any way, there's a demonic compromise that comes in that says, let's separate the families, let's separate their resources, and let's not let them go too far.

And what I believe is when we allow our minds to be blinded by certain structures that are part of this world, it's blinding our ability, and we end up compromising and leaving people behind that we shouldn't be leaving behind.

We leave our power and our resources behind, or we don't go as far into the things that God is calling us to do.

Here's what I here's what I'll say, and then I really want to hear from you because I got a question for you.

Um I think that we have to realize that I don't look to man-made tools to be the perfect expression of the kingdom of God.

And what I realize, if it's not God's idea, then that doesn't mean that it's not a tool that can't help it, but it does not have the trademark on the kingdom.

And what I think is me more than anything else is when I see people with these man-made ideology, man-made political systems, all these other things, you're believing that you have a trademark on what it means to be a believer and a follower of Christ.

If it was the case, then it would be in scripture, but it's not.

So we're allowing ourselves to have a distorted interpretation.

I can go on for ages on that.

So let me let me ask you.

I'm okay if you do, I'm okay if you do.

Okay, let me let me let me ask you this, though, because I do want to I do want to ask you this, because I think this is really um important.

Because you have you have a a great upbringing.

I know your family.

So you you've had a great upbringing, which we obviously pass through my family.

Yes, everybody else.

It's it's uh it's a it's a wonderful, that's a great example of of how you got to be who you are in regards to us having this conversation, us being friends to the degree that we are.

All those things really matter, our upbringing and things like that.

But I do want to ask you, when did you, when in your process of growth, when did you know that there was a difference in the way that races were treated?

Because I think for all of us, we all have a different origin story on how we were introduced to racism.

But what was what was those moments for you where you're like, wow, there's an actual difference?

Because we know that's taught.

Yeah, no, no, it's I don't know if I have I don't know the earliest one, um, but I I remember one uh that hit me hard because it was the it was the first time I ever heard um racist language really really close in proximity to me.

And um I I was wearing I was wearing a Steve Urkel um t-shirt.

And so for those of you that that remember Steve Urkel, he was he was that dude.

And so I was wearing a Steve Urkel t-shirt, and uh, and a family member asked me why I was wearing a t-shirt with a uh N-word on it.

And um I I'd never I I had heard that word.

I'd never I had never heard that word as close to me as it was that time.

Um I remember I remember the look on my mom's face when my mom heard it because she was standing right next to me, she heard it at the same time.

Like I this this moment, Keith, is so is so embossed in my mind and in my brain.

I remember where I was standing in the room that it happened in.

And we're we're talking now, uh, I mean, we're talking probably 30 30 years ago.

And it when I talk about echo and I talk about ring, it it messed me up.

And I saw the look in my mom's eye that that she was as terrified as I was because she knew in that moment there was some of my innocence was being taken from me.

And and we all have the moments where where you get to you realize your family's not perfect, you re you realize that that sin is close, but but that's a different type of that's a different type of of yuck.

And and so I remember we had we had conversations.

I remember my mom like very strongly um just hey that that's not who we are.

Someone else, that's that's not us.

We don't feel like that.

Um, you know, and it was very much uh a consoling.

Um you know my mom.

My mom wanted to make sure her baby was okay first.

Of course, of course.

But then also wanted to recognize and know that hey, that that's not who we are.

And so I I grew up with with parents that were incredibly inclusive.

Um, like you said, I'm a byproduct of my mom and dad.

I'm a byproduct of the home that I was in.

I'm a byproduct of um, I remember before school, like sneaking my dad's Marvin Gay CDs and listening to them before I would go to school, like in middle school.

Like I remember, come on, you know, and so um I like see I so again it was very much like I didn't I didn't have that in my home, but in that moment it was close.

Yep, it was close enough.

And that um that kind of marked me.

And there have been some other moments where I I would see, I would see and hear, and just it it would it would ring in my heart in the same way that making a bat, like in the same way that sin would.

That's the best way I can say it would ring in my heart the same way that sin would.

And and so you just kind of you go the different direction.

And then as we get older, uh again, I think there's there's seeds of it.

There's seeds of it that I think everyone has to deal with.

Um, you know, everyone that looks like me for sure, that you've got to deal with the seeds, they're out there.

Um and and you've got to determine what you're gonna do because that residue it hangs around.

And you've got to make sure you clean it off.

Um, and make sure that you're you know, we when you make sure you're not just locking your doors because it's a a person with darker colored skin.

Like we have to make sure that the thought doesn't creep into our life that because someone's skin is darker, they're inherently evil.

Yeah.

Or I'm now I'm not safe.

Like those those thoughts, I here's what I believe.

I believe the genesis of that is being willing to marginalize somebody with my words.

If I can say this with my words, making you less than, then in my eyes I'll look at you as less than.

And then as that begins to be stretched out, I think that's where we end up with in in uh broken justice.

Yeah.

Because it's it's it's been there all along.

We're we're now we're finding reason why someone is a threat.

You know, I remember a few years ago, the whole the whole Trayvon Martin thing.

I I get it, you know, I was talking to somebody today and they're like, oh, we've we've seen this play out already.

Yeah.

And it's like at what point do we not ask the Question that you posed like, am I sitting at the king's table and am I partaking of the meat?

Meaning, are there things that I've allowed to camp in my mind, in my heart, and I haven't checked them because it requires work and it requires pulling up weeds in our life.

And I'm just telling you, like if you if you want deeper spirituality, you want to follow Jesus truly, it will require you pulling out the weeds that you never planted.

And that's what people have to realize.

It's not you just caring for the things in the garden of your soul that you planted, it's dealing with the things that were there because of family of origin, things because of what you were exposed to.

You gotta pull those weeds out in order for what God's called you to to flourish.

You know, and so it's a it's a spa, man.

Like I said, it's one of those things that we're very we're keenly aware of with our kids, um, conversations that we're having.

Um I look at our time, Keith.

I know we got probably about about 14 minutes left, and I know you and I wanted to land with some kind of practical things.

I I know people have asked me, uh, and I'm sure people have asked you, you know, over the last couple days, I mean, what do we do?

Um because here's the thing, here's what I again, I I believe, I believe the best.

I believe that people want to do right.

I believe that people want to do well.

People in our churches, people that are on this, uh I want us to hear that.

This isn't two people that are like, ah, the it's going to hell in the handbasket.

Yeah.

No, I believe Jesus is our hope.

I believe that there is the ability to turn the wrongs into rights, but it takes us crossing the street, crossing the aisle, putting our hands uh on someone's wounds and bringing healing.

Um, but I want to help give maybe some some practical steps um to that.

And so I I know you got a couple, and I got a couple that I would love to share too, as far as what to do next.

Well, I I think what you you hit on in regards to like you know pulling up the weeds, being aware and and understanding where some of this stuff comes from.

I think, I think, and and and this will all tie in.

I I know for me, I remember the moment when I knew, wow, my my blackness can be a barrier.

Like, like there's there's gonna be certain things that I may that I may be limited to or certain treatment that I may get exclusively because I'm black.

And that happened for me when I was in like fifth grade.

I I I remember specifically where me and another student, and we we we both didn't turn in our assignments for a social studies class because we both went out for, we tried out for basketball, we missed a class or whatever.

So when we came back, um I remember both of us talking to the talking to the um teacher saying, like, hey, so um, yeah, we went to the class, the the gym teacher said that you know we can give you this note and that whatever we miss, we can give it to you the next day.

So go home, come back, next day we come in, and and there's this moment where like the teacher wouldn't accept my assignment.

Me and this other kid, exact same kid, exact same scenario.

Like this other kid, he's the one who would get in trouble from time to time, not me.

My mom didn't play that.

So like I was I was on a straight and arrow and I didn't understand it.

And I remember saying, like, hey, I thought we had agreed.

He said, No, I agreed to take his, but I didn't agree to take yours.

And I said, Well, and I didn't understand, like, well, why not?

He said, Because I know that sometimes you people are just looking for reasons not to finish your work.

I had I and that was the first time I was I had the process through it.

I didn't have the wherewithal to go talk to my mom about it and ask her, like, hey, this guy, but I knew then that it was so much more than like, okay, like what when you say you people, what do you mean?

So for me, that's when I realized, and this is how this is how, and this we didn't get into this, but this is how I would, this is how I would define when we talk about this idea of like white privilege.

What is it?

Why are people having a hard time with it?

I think for me, what I realize is that white privilege just simply means that you do have the benefit of the doubt.

It doesn't mean you don't have to work hard, it doesn't mean that you don't that you haven't had hardships and setbacks, but it just simply means that inherently built into your skin tone is a benefit of the doubt.

Whereas with an African American, you're already working at a deficit.

And so you're literally living a life where you're saying, Man, I just realized that I don't have the benefit of the doubt.

Like I'm from the very beginning, there's there's there's an assumption.

So then what it does is it creates this.

I wonder if it's because I'm black syndrome, and you end up living your entire life that anytime you have a negative interaction, that anytime you have any type of incident that even can be remotely connected, being negative with someone who doesn't look like you, in the back of your mind, you're processing this question of, man, I wonder if they didn't speak to me because I'm black.

They spoke to every person that walked into the store, but they didn't speak to me.

I wonder if that's because I'm black.

I'm not given the benefit of the doubt.

I wonder, I wonder if the reason why when I walked into the car dealership, they didn't come up to me in the same way that they talk to everybody else.

I wonder if it's because I'm black.

I wonder if I didn't get the job because my middle name is clearly African American, and studies will tell you that, hey man, if that's the case, then we're not going to call you back.

I wonder if because they're black.

I wonder if when I became the lead pastor of Celebration Orlando and I saw certain people leave, I wonder if you left because I'm black.

What I'm saying is the list goes on and on where you begin to wonder.

I wonder if people are making adjustments because I'm black.

And here's the thing not every single incident is that, but in the back of your mind, you're processing through it.

It's like your mind is constantly buffering through this thought of, I wonder if it's because I'm black.

I wonder if when I like Megan and I, we went out and served in our community.

And so Megan's an extra extrovert, you know how she is.

We're dropping off stuff in single parents' homes and different women in our community for Mother's Day.

In my mind, I'm thinking to myself, people don't know we're coming, they don't know who we are.

And I'm literally thinking about my blackness pulling into neighborhoods.

People don't know who we are.

Why are we knocking on that door?

Who are those people?

So I'm like, Megan, let's just drop this stuff off and keep moving.

I don't have time to have anybody wondering, taking down my license plate, thinking that somehow like you're just you end up living your life in a way where you're just processing through this filter of, I wonder if it's because I'm black.

And here's the thing when you live your life processing questions and the answers don't move you forward, it's exhausting.

So what I just that's I would literally, I that's the literally the word I was thinking.

I was like, what?

That's exhausting.

Yeah.

And and and it is.

Like, and it is.

I mean, and I'm not asking for any violins, but when we're talking about next steps, it's just being aware that if you have African American friends and and things that are very arbitrary, and you're wondering, like, wow man, like, why are you upset because that ticket agent says something smart to you?

Because in the back of your mind, you're wondering, I wonder if you did that because I'm black, or because you didn't talk to my person right next to me that way.

You didn't talk to anyone else that way.

Why, like, and that's just the way that we process through things.

So I think just being aware that there is a I wonder if it's because I'm black thing that runs into the back of every African American's mind.

When I moved into my neighborhood, um, and I was in in Jacksonville.

When I first moved to Jacksonville from living up north, I went I went running one time and I remember just jogging, minding my own business.

And and and I'll I'll put it out there.

I'm running, I'm minding my business.

Police officer rides up next to me, says, Hey, where are you going?

I'm running.

I have headphones in.

Hey man, where are you going?

I'm like, I'm just running.

Like literally, it's a path that multiple people are running on.

Um, do you have your ID on you?

No, I don't, I don't have it on me.

Well, you just stand right there.

And so in the back of my mind, I'm like, I wonder if he's I wonder if he's asking everyone, like, and so I'm like, hey, is there is there an issue?

Well, you fit the description.

I'm like, okay, cool.

I'm like, description of what?

Like, what are we talking about?

And then he's like, hey, you I mean, and literally becomes combative.

And here's what I realize.

I'm like, okay, so obviously this is a a black factor, but then I'm also saying, well, hey, man, if there's like a legitimate description of someone that looks like me, I want to like warn my family so that way we all are aware.

So if there's something going on, and so what I really like if there's a criminal, I want to be aware of the criminal, I want to be aware of the criminal because this is my community as well.

But what was it was seen as if I was being combative.

And I'm wondering, hey, I wonder if when you ask anybody else the like, are you asking everyone these questions?

Are you are you pulling up to everyone and doing this?

It's it's the I wonder if I'm black syndrome.

And so it is exhausting, it is, it can be frustrating.

It is one of those things that are annoying.

So I think what's important for for anyone, and we're talking about next steps, is being aware that the black experience in America is one where you've been you've been marginalized, you've been you've been um dismissed, you've been every you've been victim, all the things that you can imagine that goes with it is something that's inherently connected to us, no matter where you're from, no matter where you live, being aware of that.

So when someone is frustrated or when they are asking questions, and so when you do like, bro, when I when I get on the elevator, like I literally, I'm a 44-year-old man.

I've made decisions to do my best to be as successful as possible.

I've done everything I can to put my family in an environment that I feel like they're safe.

To this day, I am mindful of if I'm walking to my mailbox and I see someone that doesn't look like me that's walking to the mailbox, I'm like, okay, let me give them enough space so that way they don't think I'm walking too close up behind them.

Like, I'm literally thinking through all this stuff.

Like, if it's cold outside, I don't even have the advantage of being able to put my hoodie on because by definition, if you see a black man in a hoodie, you're up to something.

Like, it just means that you're living in this perpetual state of changing the way that you operate because you don't want to feed into a narrative that someone already has made up in their mind.

So so I that's just that's just uh just being aware of that.

But here's one of the things that I think that will be helpful if you can just give me some some some brief insight on this.

You've done a great job with with your family.

You guys have talked about it, you've processed this stuff with them.

Um, I mean, your family, I could just put it this way your family loves black people.

Like your son, I think he low-key has a thing for my wife.

And at some point, him and I are gonna have a conversation about it.

It's not low-key.

It is not low-key at all.

Keith, if you don't, Keith, if you don't protect your marriage, my son's coming.

Like he's bro, hey, don't let him catch wind that you're sick, bro.

He is not praying for your healing.

He is on deck.

No, he loves he loves Megan.

He loves her.

Um I'm aware.

No, I he's you're aware.

Here's the thing.

Like, um I I think for us, one of the things that we see is like a next step.

You know, we're I think I think meaningful friendships and relationships are huge.

Um because when you're going through something, I'm going through something.

I can't, I'll never know the weight of the burden and the struggle that you carry.

But I can stand alongside you and try to help lift it with you.

And and you and I have kind of made that commitment to one another like in life.

We're we're gonna we're gonna do that.

So for me, there's a sense because I have names to situations, it's not there's no distance for me.

Yeah because I hear how you feel.

And I go, no, I I don't want I don't want Keith to feel that way.

Keith's a rational, logical, intelligent person.

Keith's not making things up.

Like you said, I think you I need you to say this.

I need I I because we talked about this earlier and we got a couple of minutes, but you and I were together, and you you told the story earlier about how you'd been pulled over.

Please just give me a snippet of what you talked to me about, how many times you've been pulled over, and then Tom when you and I got pulled over together.

Yeah, real talk.

I've been pulled over probably 12 to 15 times.

Um, in terms of my driving, it is good.

So I don't want you to get nervous in terms of like um, like I'm a good driver, however, I'm a fast driver, and I get places quick.

You know what I'm saying?

Well, the police have also noticed that I'm a fast driver, and they seem to be in the way between me and where I'm trying to get to.

And so I've been pulled over a lot, been pulled over probably dozen plus times in my life, um, and receipt tickets, that sort of thing.

Uh, you and I were traveling um uh back from uh Jacksonville, we were traveling back up to DC and we were driving through um you know on the highway, and uh and you were pulled over.

I was in the passenger seat, you were in the driver's seat.

Um, and I'll I'll say this in all of the times that I have been pulled over, and then the time I was pulled over in the car with you and uh and and Megan, the anxiety that was in that car prior to an officer arriving.

So, again, what I'm not saying is there was uh an aggressive police officer.

That's not what we're saying at all.

I'm talking about just the sheer anxiety of being in that car with what you were feeling and processing in real time.

And and I mean, in my mind, I'm like, do I need to turn on my phone?

Do I need to start recording this?

I remember there was one part you're like, hey, hey, Charlie, like my um my registration's in the glove box, can you get it?

And I was like, nah, dog, I ain't opening this glove box.

Like, we'll wait till he gets here and he gives us some instruction because I'm not moving around crazy, because I I feel I feel some kind of way now.

Um it's those moments when you realize, okay, this is a real thing.

This isn't, and again, I I I know people probably aren't saying this, but I just want to say this so that they'll stop saying it if they are.

These aren't exaggerations.

These aren't um over emotions.

These are these are real emotions and feelings and truths and stories.

And in the same way we value testimony because it's on the other side, I think we also have to value lament, which is what this is.

Amen.

And so for us and our family, a couple of the practical things that we that we do that you and I talked about that are are good things, is is we want to prepare the next generation.

Um we I we think this sort of work and this sort of um you know kingdom mandate on us to kind of step in the middle of this is both a present and a future.

The future is is the conversations we have with our kids.

It's it's us being aware that um we don't want to sow seeds that are going to bring weeds.

We want to sow seeds that are gonna produce fruit.

Um so that that's one of the things.

Um the the second thing, you had like two book references that you I know some people put some book references in the deal.

You had two book references I know you wanted to share um in our last, you know, and then we got one more thing.

I think um The Myth of Equality is an incredible book that just really helps you to understand a lot about this in the name, and then also um the color of compromise.

And that really specifically deals with like the church and its involvement with perpetuating racism.

It's just a phenomenal book.

So I would just I would just say educate yourself beyond your feelings, beyond your preferences, beyond your politics.

That's great.

You've got to look at resources that are beyond just what maybe is being pumped into you through a bunch of different slanted filters to really have a scope of standing alongside someone who has had experiences that maybe you haven't had.

That's great.

And then I think um we've got you know 59 seconds left and we're gonna we're gonna get kicked off.

Um I love you, I appreciate you, and uh I'm grateful, grateful that you are uh a friend.

Um but again, if if if you're hurting, then I'm hurting.

And uh and we're gonna get after this together.

Love you, brother.

Love you, man.

Be well.

All right, bro.

Be good, man.

Thanks again for listening.

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