After the Message: Unity & Fellowship

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at CelebrationORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.

What's up, Josh?

What's up?

How are you doing?

I'm good, man.

How are you?

Doing good.

Just enjoying my third cup of coffee for the day.

Yeah, I'm on number, I'm on uh the second one, so I'll be with you shortly.

I gotta get that cafe bustello, that Cuban espresso.

It's like the best.

That's the good stuff.

Dude, back in quarantine, back at the house.

Yep, three days in.

It's crazy.

It is.

But thanks to technology, we can still do this.

So yeah, we can still do this.

I didn't think we would be back in quarantine again.

It's like I don't want to see anyone on a zoom screen for a long time.

I agree with that.

I think a lot of people agree with that sentiment.

Oh yeah.

There's just an angel up in heaven just doing a proverbial like doom cha.

Like I don't know if that's biblical or theological or not, but hey, no, it's not at all.

Um man, uh Sunday's message with Pastor Charlie.

First of all, I love always love hearing from that guy, you know, is just what he talked about being able to.

Um his passion was kind of being able to make complex things like palatable and understandable, you know, just for the common person, which is me.

So uh it's true, you know, he does a great job at that.

Yeah.

I think he's always done a great job making things, like you're saying, palatable, but then like, you know, he's able to speak to the 99% that are normal, like you and I, but then he's able to speak to that 1% too that maybe has a super in-depth like knowledge of the Bible and even like of the world.

Um, I've always loved the way that he brings worldview into um into what he's preaching, and like he does a really good job of doing that.

So yeah, it was awesome.

I loved it.

Um I always I can always listen to what he says over and over again and get something different every time.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

That's a really good point, though.

I haven't really thought of it that way.

Like he's still able, he can speak to both audiences in the same setting.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, and that's like it, that's something that's I mean, m most people, you know, a lot of people I feel like I would say it's e it's easier to like pick one or the other, but he does a really good job of being able to speak to both.

And I mean, and and then even like just helping people understand like where he's coming from.

He always does a good job of you know setting up the context of it, what he's talking about, and stuff like that.

So yeah, I always enjoy it.

I learn, I mean, I like to I like to learn.

That's one of the things that um I mean I really do.

And I think sometimes in, you know, we're back in quarantine.

So it's like I know a lot of people during quarantine, we're like, man, I read so many books and I learned so much.

I feel like quarantine, I um I didn't do a lot of that the first time.

And I, you know, I kind of I mean, I I've even told you, I kind of look back at that like, man, I wish I would have spent more time learning.

And so I'm gonna get back into my my learning phases right now, you know.

Yeah, I mean it's a it's a good time to to do that, take advantage of it.

Yeah.

I definitely I did read, but I don't felt I don't feel like I read as much as I wanted to, you know, over and above what I normally would.

So yeah.

Yeah, it's true.

Because then you still have work, you know me, you have kids, you're you're homeschooling your kids, thank God for summer camp, they're there now, so it's awesome.

Yeah.

Dude, the like right off the bat of the sermon, he said something that we could literally spend this entire time talking about that I thought was so profound.

And and something that I have thought about, but I haven't been able to articulate as well as he did, obviously.

But unity does not ignore difference.

Yeah.

And that that's just it's again, it's super profound thought to think about that just because we come together and we desire to be unified, that doesn't mean that we don't differ in whatever the case may be.

Yeah.

And I think if you if you think about it, and I actually had a really good conversation um with um, he's an older gentleman that kind of lives by where we do here in College Park a few weeks ago.

Um he's in his like late 60s, early 70s, and we were talking about everything that goes on racially.

And one of the things that he said that was he was still trying to wrap his head around and understand is he said, for his generation, he's like, if I didn't want to hang out with someone who was not like me, I had he's like, I could do that.

He's like, I could go to work.

He goes, and everyone I worked with was a Republican.

He said, I could go to the church that I wanted, and everyone looked the same as me and thought the same as me.

He's like, I could, he's like, you can choose to work people out of your life that have differing views and opinions than what you have.

But like at the end of the day, the thing that he said that got me, he goes, but is that really, is that really like unity?

And he goes, is that really tolerance?

Because I think that's one of the things that you know with with unity and having like disagreements with people or not seeing things the same, is sometimes we can view tolerance as like complete, like, like I agree with what you say, you agree with what I say, we're all good.

But really, what it is is just being able to look at the uniqueness of someone else, what they believe, where you're different, their different background, maybe what they've come from, and you're able to go, hey, like there is something that we have in common.

Like that there's something we have in common.

We're all children of God, we're all on this journey together, whatever it may be.

And so talking to him about that really made me realize that, you know, if we're not careful, we can give off the illusion of unity by just staying in our little like holy huddles or you know, staying in our our own our own groups.

And so I think when he said that, that's one of the things that made me think of is you know, like, are we pursuing unity with people who are not like us?

Right.

Like, it are we actively doing that?

Because if we're not actively doing that, then really all we're doing is we've just surrounded ourselves with a lot of like-minded people, yeah.

And and it's it's unity for our our group, but not unity as a whole.

Does that make sense?

It does, and it's it's so true, and it's that's kind of the easy road to take, like that gentleman that you were talking about.

He's like, man, it's it's easy.

Uh have you done like a lot of or any extensive study on early church stuff personally?

Um I mean, I have, and when it when I said if you say extensive, like um not like any major college courses.

I mean, I did two college, I did two college courses on it in Bible college.

Um, given that was when I was 18.

I'm 33 now, I've probably forgotten a lot of those things.

Um, but yeah, I I studied a lot about just the early church and how they did, how how they represented unity.

And it is a lot different than like I would say, you know, what what we would think of today is unity.

Because they would take anybody and everybody.

They're like, you want to know about Jesus?

Like, come on, like, walk beside me, and they would walk with them with their differences, and they would walk with them as they begin to transform and to change.

I mean, it's I mean, a a lot of people probably know the verse, but Romans 12, too, where like Paul talks about the renewing of the mind, and it leads to transformation in your life when you don't conform to the patterns of this world.

But see, what the early church would actually ask people to do is not to only not conform to the patterns of the world, but also we don't want you just to conform to Christianity because we don't want this to be something you conform to.

We want this to be something that actually literally like transforms your entire life.

We don't want you to like this to like be behavior modification.

We want it to transform your entire soul from the inside out.

And so they were super huge on I will be at a table with someone and lots of people who are not like me, who don't look like me, who don't believe the same as me.

But my hope is is that from you seeing my life and the unity in my life, which is some of the things that Charlie said, is that by you seeing all of these things, that you would see Jesus in all of it.

And that ultimately Jesus would be what it leads to.

And so I think that's like, you know, that's a that's a huge thing.

And and I mean, we've carried that, I think we've carried that on in the church, but like what we were talking about a minute ago, I think sometimes we've carried that on by just creating people who've conformed to what we believe, who might not even know why we believe it, but they're conforming to what we do instead of it actually being something that transforms them from the inside out.

Yeah, and then it becomes it, then it just becomes anything else that's institutional.

The church can, if you're not careful, become that because it it's not a it's not a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit transforming you, it's the institution itself.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

So it you're right, you do you do have to be careful, and that's an interesting point about the early church saying, like, hey, we don't want you to just conform to Christianity.

We actually want you renewed, you know, we want you to have a new a new heart, soul, and mind.

Um which is kind of as Charlie, Pastor Charlie kept explaining, it's a holistic approach to unity.

Yeah, it is.

I mean, you think about it, like I did um in high school, one of the things that my dad did is he would loan me off like to all of his friends to work for them, you know.

Um just like, I mean, it was like I had a different job every month, but it was just because he wanted me to get, you know, well-rounded and different things.

And so one of the things that we did is we poured um foundations on homes and repaired foundations on homes.

And so this the thing that I saw is, you know, when you are pouring something new compared to fixing something old, there were two different actually ways of doing it.

When you're pouring something new, you made a form and you were able to pour it in there and then it grew into that form.

So you think about that that that is us when we have children, you know, when we're when we're when we're raising our kids, we're there's a form, there's this thing that we believe that God's called them to live, this life he's called them to live.

We're pouring our life into them.

We're trying to get, and what we're doing is is we're helping them become formed into who God wants them to be.

But when you're trying to repair something, it's different.

You don't just go in there and put the form in and then try to cut out the old and make it like fit in the form.

You actually go in and you start removing things from the old, then you put up the form and then you help it rebuild into the new.

And so you still even have some old things in there as you're rebuilding it.

But I think too many times if we're not careful, what we'll do is like what we talked about is we're like, okay, like, all right, come here, here's this form, here's this mold, fit into it, but without letting the Holy Spirit do the work because ultimately, like, he's gonna be the one that does all that.

Yeah, you know, we can hold people, we can take people by the hand, we can walk with them, but he's gonna be the one that does the transformation.

He's gonna be the one that starts working on that.

And like, even this morning, there's a um there's a pastor that um I listen to a lot.

His name is Craig Mosgrove.

Um, he's actually kind of grew up in the Church of God movement in Tennessee, you know, your old stomping grounds.

Um, but he was a he was a youth pastor for Jensen Franklin in Atlanta for a lot of years.

But he's always been a very well, I like him because he's always been like the uh um evangelical, like charismatic, like Bible teacher, like to the core.

And so this past Sunday he did a sermon on the fruit of the spirit, and he was actually talking about this how ultimately the fruit of the spirit in our life is gonna make us more like Christ, which creates unity and all this stuff.

But the thing that he said, um, and I think we all know it, is that like trees don't strive to bear fruit, trees bear fruit.

And so all these things in our life that we're talking about with transforming unity, all this stuff, like there's gonna be times we have to make a decision to bear fruit, but we're not producing it, the Holy Spirit is.

Yeah.

Like, and if we're abiding in him, it comes it's called the fruit of the spirit.

So that word in the Greek, it's literally like a it's like a two-way word.

It means it's from him, but then also for him, right?

So if we're getting it from him and we're producing it in our life, then everything that we produce is now for him, which in turn leads people back, you know, to Jesus.

Yeah.

So yeah, that's interesting.

I mean, I'm I'm the most guilty of trying to to force the issue.

You know, I I always I always kind of look at my life and go, well, not producing fruit in that area and try and force it, you know what I mean?

Yeah, and I think there's there's some good at that, at being able to be so self-aware and and recognizing certain things in your life.

But at the same time, like you were saying, fruit of the spirit is literally of the spirit, you know what I mean?

And it's for God, and it's not just it's not just so I can feel good about myself, you know.

So um, and then what you said towards the end of that, ultimately it helps bring others to Christ.

And that's what Pastor Charlie said was um, you know, talking about Luke 15 and it's bringing others to the faith, and and how and it kind of goes along with our our our motto, if you want to.

I don't know what we call it, but reach a loss equip the found.

You know what I mean?

And I thought that was so so good.

Dude, another thing that was really inspiring slash encouraging that I've heard a million times, but it hit me in a different way on Sunday was the gates of hell will not prevail.

And I think it hit me in a different way because of just the outside craziness of the world and just that promise of hey, no matter what's going on, uh the kingdom of God, God's church will, you know, is not gonna be overtaken.

Yeah.

I think, I mean, you know, even the early church, and everywhere you can look, like even in other countries right now where the church is suppressed and other things, um, you know, for people listening, I mean Callie and I, we've done missions a lot of our life and we've been places where I mean you can't even say the name of Jesus without getting arrested and you know put in jail.

And and um but well here's what I've always seen is that the more pressure that's put on the church, all of a sudden it might have to go underground for a little bit, or it might take what looks like outwardly a hit, but then all of a sudden it rises back up and it's like stronger than ever.

There's more people like sold out on fire for God.

Um, I mean, that is how the early church spread.

I mean, they're literally being tortured and hunted down, and so they have to hide, but as they're hiding, they're not letting that stop the work of God in their life.

Yeah.

And so, like it, they're they're hiding, and then when they come out of hiding, they're stronger than ever.

Do you think you know you think we're gonna see something similar here?

I mean, I think we will.

I think here's the here's the other thing too.

I think that for some people, so here's the other thing that happens in hiding, and this is like for me, like even like thinking back this past quarantine, is that we're in your inner pressure situation.

Anything that is inside of you that needs to come out will get revealed.

You know, when you're when you are working from home, when you are, you know, homeschooling the kids, when when there's so much like just pressure and moments, if you will let God, He will show you things that need to change in your life.

Yeah.

And then it's up to you to then start walking that out with them.

And so that's why I think a lot of times people do come out of these things stronger eventually.

I'm not saying like tomorrow's like, whoa, you know, a light switch, but I think that I think it's gonna happen, man, because I really here's here's what I think.

I think, at least for our generation, we have never had something happen where we've had to actually think about our mortality.

Yeah, we've never like we haven't experienced the wars that my dad's generation and grandpa's generation did, where literally like so many thousands of people died.

Like we we didn't experience, like, man, we could get drafted and have to go fight.

You know, like we didn't experience that.

And so we've not, at least that I can think of, you know, in my you know, 33 years on earth, I can't think of anything that has made me come face to face with my mortality more than more than this, yeah.

You know, because it's you see that people are, I mean, dying every day because of this.

Yeah, and so when people come face to face with their mortality, they have to come face to face with their eternity.

And so then they have to know like it makes people start asking questions like, is there something more?

Is there and that's where I think those questions, when people start asking those questions, they start looking for answers.

And of course, we know that Jesus is the answer, but but the thing is, is like they may not know that Jesus is the answer, but they see us and they see how we are in these moments, and like, man, something's different about you.

It's like you're not, it's like you're you're not worried about your eternity.

You're you you seem like, man, all this pressure's going on, and yeah, God's showing you things, but you still seem to be walking through this.

Like, what is what is the difference?

Yeah.

And I think that is like um, you know, that's that that's where we're gonna see the resurgence.

And I can think of, you know, my dad, I always I talk about him a lot whenever I just because he was, I mean, he was always, in my opinion, an example of of like God and Jesus.

He had his he had a few years, you know, where he uh he kind of went back and and and did some things when I was a younger kid, but after that, you know, he's all he's always just been really steady.

Yeah.

One of the things that he he's worked in, um, he's been an evangelist his entire life.

So he was travels to churches and still speaks to this day.

But, you know, in order to, you know, make a living, he works in uh construction engineering and like for industrial buildings, like anything you can think of.

I mean, he helped build like the handrails on the Baltimore Orioles New Stadium, like so all these he's done all this stuff.

Yeah, I know it was it was cool.

I actually got to meet um Carol Ripkin Jr.

whenever he was helping.

Yeah, I was like, I don't remember how old I was.

It was like his last year that he was playing, and so I got to meet him because my dad helped do some updates to the to old school Camden Yard and was helping them with the new thing they were doing.

So dang, man, that's awesome.

Yeah, it was cool.

Also met Derek Jeter then, too, which is how I became a Yankees fan.

Don't hate me.

I know you like the the rays.

But all right, let's go, move on.

I know we gotta move on.

But um, so he always worked, and and this industry is a super gruff and tough industry.

I mean, like, I mean, your average person probably works for a company six months before, you know, they either are out or back.

My dad's like either out there or they're back in jail, and then they come out and work for you again.

But one of the things that he always did is he's just like, he never tried to shove God down anyone's throat.

You know, he never tried to, he never tried to just come and preach a sermon.

He just tried to let his life live it.

And uh one day he was at a job site, and this foreman for this company came in front of the whole entire crew, which was about 30 people working for him, and just cussed him up one side and down the other.

And my dad said, he's like inside of me, he's like, I could feel this like rage, like, man, I I could I could hit this guy, I could tell him what he's worth.

He goes, but I didn't say anything, I just stood there.

He goes, and then he was done.

I said, Okay, we'll fix the problem.

Just that simple, that thing.

He goes, and later on at lunch, he's like, all the guys were like, yo, man, I would have hit him, I would have cussed him out.

Like somebody's like, I would have been, I would have been back to jail for that.

Like, you know my God.

But you know, it gave him an opportunity to then talk about like they're like, What man, how could you do that?

You know, how how could you just stand there and let him talk to you like that?

Gave him an opportunity to then share with them about Jesus.

And then three of those dudes ended up giving their life to Christ that day in a little like diner restaurant in like a small town in North Carolina.

But the thing is, is like those are the type of things that whenever we truly like, you know, that was a pressure packed situation.

Who he was in that pressure packed situation came out, someone saw it, and then it led to people coming to Christ, and there were no church.

Building or anything like that.

And so I think this is what this is going to do more than anything.

I think that sometimes we think, man, I've got to bring my unsaved friend to church so that then the pastor can preach a message and they can get saved.

That's not that's never what God intended it to be.

That's never what the early church was.

It was the pastor preached a message at church, or you got a letter in an underground room that someone read, and then you went out and you lived your life like Jesus, and then when someone wanted to know about Jesus, right there on the spot, you're like, hey, I can tell you can actually be saved right now.

Like you don't have to wait, you don't have to come to church on Sunday with me.

Yes, going to church is a great thing.

But it was all about the daily walk with people.

Yeah.

And um, I think that's what this is going to get people back to is to understand, man, the daily walk with people that my life represents Christ.

And if I look like Christ, then more people are going to come to know him.

And it's not just going to be like a gunslinger on a Sunday morning preaching the message and like, you know, that one's saved, this one's saved.

You know, like all that's all that is great.

But when we're relying on just Sunday mornings and just the church building or church service to be the thing that is evangelizing the world around us, and then we wonder why the world is in the state that it's in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, right now, right now we're saying that that opportunity isn't even afforded to us, you know, the Sunday morning opportunity.

I guess what I'm saying, if if that's our only method, like we're in trouble.

You know, that is definitely a method.

And you know, I've seen personally and can attest personally to that being that being uh beneficial and helpful in actually working.

Um, but if that's our only method, like we're definitely in trouble.

And it kind of goes along with living our lives in such a way that reflects Christ in order for others to see Christ is gonna take maturity and we're gonna have to grow.

And dude, the the the the uh the phrase that he uses, we're not after steak flavored milk.

Yeah.

I was just like, oh man, that is so good.

And then only only Charlie and his all his deadness, you know.

I know, yeah.

So, you know, Paul talks about that a couple different times is hey, it's time to it's time to start focusing on some other things, you know, as you grow.

And he, you know, the whole verse of when I was a child, I spoke as a child, but when I became a man, I put off childish things.

And so how does that to you how does that kind of tie in with unity to you?

Because for me, I'm still trying to, I'm still trying to process through that whole thing, but for me, that's more of a it's more of an outreach thing, you know.

But unity within ourselves, how within the body, what does that look like to you as far as growing in maturity?

So I think there's there's kind of like two things when it comes to that, and I was actually thinking about this this morning, um was when you grow more mature, you also grow more secure.

And I'm not trying to do a little preacher saying there.

I actually was thinking about like like maturity breeds security in your life.

The biggest the biggest, I I think uh tool of the enemy to come against unity is insecurity.

Because you think about the fact of you know, um just the the church is it's just like any other business or any other thing where where people will come there and they're like, man, I want to do this or I want to do that.

But then someone beside me wants to do the exact same thing.

Yeah.

And so, like, do I need to do more to show that I can actually do better than them so that I can get the thing that they want?

And that it create it it just creates this like massive like ripple effect, like insecurity would create disunity and like so quick among anything.

And so I think that the more mature we become, the more secure we can be to go, man, like I mean, I I want to do this, you want to do this, like let's link arms and do this together.

Like it's uh we've almost created this like scarcity mindset, like when it comes to like the church, like the body of Christ being like we all we always say it's like one body with many members, but there's this mindset of like, yeah, but there's a few members that count more than the others, and so that's what I need to strive to be.

Instead of, and which then creates insecurity because eventually somebody you may you may even be meant to do that, or somebody else may be meant to do it.

And now you've created this like thing of like, you know, um just competition and other stuff.

And so I just think man, the more mature that we become in Christ, the more secure that we are, because we know when we lay our head down at night on the pillow, like that we have done our best, that we've given our best for God.

And then it's not about like what somebody else did or where they're at that I'm on my journey, and as long as I'm on my journey and I'm trying my best to bring people along with me.

And I mean, because when you're secure, what you're gonna do is you are gonna bring people along with you because you're gonna be able to encourage them.

You're not gonna just be waiting for people to encourage you all the time.

Yeah, you're gonna be encouraging them to keep taking steps in their faith.

Yeah, and I think it's like, you know, like, I mean, and that's kind of more of I would say like the service side of like being a Christian is like, you know, kind of like what we do, but then even thinking of when it comes down to like man, like reading our Bible, praying, things like that, that can also create a lot of insecurity, which can then create disunity because it's like, well, man, you know, Nate said he read his Bible six hours this morning before we got on after the message.

I only read like a chapter.

I actually honestly, I only read the U Version verse of the day, and I only read half of it because I didn't really like the other half and it didn't sit with my soul well.

But uh oh.

What is it?

But it's I don't know, I didn't read it today.

Um but I think like in everything, it's like just be secure with where you're at on your journey, and and and as you're growing like in maturity, that security is gonna grow.

And you can't you cannot compare your walk with Christ to anyone else's.

The moment that you begin comparing, the moment that you begin doing that, is when disunity starts because the insecurity rises up.

And I mean, it just I I really think like, you know, and in Paul, like he did a couple of times, like in the New Testament, where he talked about, hey, we need to move on from milk and go after meat.

It's in Corinthians, I believe, see that I think it's 2 Corinthians.

It's either 1st or 2nd Corinthians, one of the two.

It's in the Corinthians, where he actually talks to the church and he like reminds them, though, like, hey, like, I know we're going, I know you want to know about angels and all these other things, but don't forget like salvation, don't forget, you know, like walking in the spirit, don't forget.

So he's like reminding them of, yeah, we want to go after, you know, like meatier things, but don't forget these things.

And so I think what you see there is you see this pendulum swing of you know, some like of, well, I don't want the milk, you know, I want the meat.

And then the other people is like, you know, like well, if I only want meat, then I can't even like I already got the milk handled.

Yeah.

But the thing is, is that at the same time, the way that our body works is that you need the milk to digest the meat.

Like you need you need both of those things.

Yeah, you need them together, and and you can't forsake where you began just because you think you're farther down the line than someone else.

And so we just have to be really careful that when we grow in maturity, it doesn't cause our ego to grow.

That when we grow in maturity, we actually humble ourselves more to bring other people along and encourage them, you know, and help them on the journey.

Hopefully, that answers that question.

No, it does.

And by the way, today's verse of the day is Hebrews 12.

It says, We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.

Because of the joy awaiting him, he endured the cross, disregarding its shame.

Now he is seated in the place of honor beside God's throne.

So it goes along with you know, comfort versus maturity.

Yep.

You know, he Jesus disregarded comfort.

Even Jesus grew, you know what I mean?

Like even Jesus grew in maturity, and you know, Jesus grew in wisdom and favor with God and men.

Yeah.

I think sometimes people think, and I've I've I've kind of referenced this before, but I think sometimes people just when they look at Jesus, they look at the miracles that he did and they forget that he was a man.

Sure.

You know, like they they look at it, but like Jesus, I mean, he was also a carpenter.

He like built things with his hands, like he he lived on this earth in human form for 33 years.

He went through every feeling and emotion that we've felt.

He wasn't like, even though he was fully God and fully man, he still felt emotion.

Like he still felt things, and then he still had to make the decision to okay, like, but there's something, there's something more.

Yeah, there's something that I have to sacrifice in myself to become more of who God wants me to become.

And it's like, I think so many times we could think that we do have there's another verse in Hebrews that says that he can literally like that that he he knows everything that we've been through.

We have a high priest that can like he knows what we've felt, he knows what we've gone through, so we can come to him boldly.

And I think like that that's one of those things that like if you're looking to get out of comfort and go into maturity, you have to realize that Jesus did the exact same thing.

And it wasn't just because he was fully God and fully man, it was because he had to make that decision.

Yeah, ultimately, he had to make the decision to die on the cross.

We God didn't make it for him, he had to make it.

He could have at any moment stopped that.

But that's such a crazy thought, man, because we do we we almost think of it as like uh robotic, you know.

But just as much as I don't know if this is heresy or not, I don't think it is, but just as much as Adam and Eve Eve had a choice, so did Jesus.

Like he had he had a choice.

I mean, Philippians 2, though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

Yep.

So he chose, you know, God sent him, but he chose to accept that assignment and to fulfill that.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's crazy.

That that's one of those things that makes me think every time, like, you know, like I mean, Olivia, she um she firmly believes she she asks all the time if we can go to Jerusalem because she wants to see Jesus.

So she probably believes that he's alive somewhere in Jerusalem.

So and hey, who knows?

We would probably go there and like he would appear to her, like in somehow, some way, and it would be like she saw Jesus, it would be crazy.

Um But the the thing is, is like, is with that, she even understands that.

Like we were talking the other day, and like she at eight years old, I mean, and I'm I'm so blessed that before we adopted them, like they were in a a very, very Christian environment.

I mean, they would go to church multiple times a day.

Um, she probably knows the Bible better than most adults in America, but um even even lately, uh Mia's been kind of having a little little bit of trouble telling the truth.

And so now Libya go, Mia, tell the truth, and the truth will set you free.

You know.

And so, but she even under she even understands that like that Jesus, even though like he was God's son, that he had to make decisions and choices to walk out the life that he did.

And I'm like, I'm like, I mean, I wish I would have understood that at eight years old.

I thought Jesus was this like white, white faced, brown haired, like robot that was like, how may I serve you?

How may I help you?

Yeah, you know, um, but I just think that, you know, the more that we can realize that Jesus was just as much fully man as he was fully God, and that he had to make those same decisions.

And if we're supposed to model our life, um, I mean, like Paul says, uh, to literally be imitators of Christ, then I mean, one of the biggest things that he did was sacrifice.

One of the biggest things that he did was step out of comfort um and into you know maturity time and time again.

And I just think that, you know, that should encourage us that if Jesus could do that, and again, he was, you know, fully man, fully God, then then we can do that.

Yeah, and because he had to rely on God just like we did.

Even when you look at when he would do miracles and when he's talking to his disciples before he goes to heaven, they're like, Man, give us the secret.

He goes, I relied on God.

I only did what the father told me to do and how he told me to do it.

So he didn't even puff himself up.

Like, like that, that's the thing that like amazes me is like he never once said, Oh, yeah, like I prayed in the name of me, and then like it happened because of me.

It was no, I did what my father told me to do, I only did what he told me to do.

So then this is the result.

Yeah, yeah.

And that that ultimate inclusivity, I think that's how you say it.

Yeah, that ultimate inclusiveness was welcoming opponents.

And Pastor Charlie said welcoming former opponents.

I was thinking about Jesus, and I was like thinking about Jesus, he welcomed future opponents too.

You know, before, you know, before the death, burial, and resurrection, he inter he interacted with people that he crucified him, you know.

And that I was trying to think about how that sort of applies to my life, like and it's almost it's almost as if I welcome people who may never I may never get anything in return from, you know, but I still try and include them at the at my table.

And man, that's that's so much easier said than done for sure.

It is, and I think like, you know, like when he was saying that, here's the thing that it made me think of is like even with welcoming opponents and stuff back into your life, is that anytime there's distance between you and something, it creates like distortion.

So you think of you know, someone in your life who maybe has hurt you or has done you wrong.

Our natural instinct, mine included, I'm not perfect at this by any means.

I'm still working on it, like even today.

Yeah, your natural instinct is to put as much time and distance between you and that thing.

To avoid pain.

Yeah, to avoid pain.

But then the problem is that the more distance and time you put in between it, that doesn't actually like heal anything, it really just creates more distortion.

Because now you're wondering, like, well, I saw they put this Instagram comment up, is that about me?

Like, like, I mean, like literally, that's the that's that's how we live.

And so what happens is is that in order to even like heal your heart, in order to heal those things, it it doesn't mean you have to be like best friends again.

It doesn't mean like we all understand that, but even like bringing them back in so in some way, shape, or form, you know.

Um to your life, you're saying?

To your life, yeah.

And I think like and I've I've I've talked about it before, but like my mom and I, we did not have a good relationship after I moved with my dad.

My parents got divorced when I was a kid, and there was a lot of hurt and pain that was in that relationship.

It was not, and I always and I still to this day that there's areas I need to work on it in.

Yeah, but my mom, I I kind of just like peace out, you know, I'm living with my dad, and you know, whatever happens happens.

Yeah.

And I remember it wasn't until I was 20, I was 28, man.

I remember we were actually living down by um off of Cimarron Boulevard down by the airport.

Um and um we were in an apartment.

I remember my mom calling me.

It was 28, bro.

I've been living with all this hurt, all this pain, resentment towards her, but tried to like, no mom, I love you.

We're good, you know.

Like, and she called me and for the first time, because I tried to talk to her about it before, right?

And she had um kind of like been like, oh, that didn't happen, or you know, and so when I talked to her um this time, she brought it up, and that like it took me, like it took me by complete surprise.

But she called me, she brought it up, started talking about it, and as she was talking about it, she's like, I bet this has caused you a lot of pain and hurt.

And dude, like I can't I tried to hold it together, you know.

Yeah, but I mean, uh and I just started crying, and then even after she got off the phone, I like cried for a couple of hours um as a 28-year-old man.

Um, you know, like, but like not like not like like sobbing, ugly cry.

Um but the thing that I I could tell you is though, is that moment of and I had reached out before and I had tried to talk about things, and then but that moment of actually closeness, it brought healing to my life.

I know that it brought healing to her life, and there's still there's still a road to go in that because there was there was hurt that was done.

But I think, you know, like my family just in general is an amazing example of forgiveness, of wholeness, of bringing uh opponents back in.

My mom and dad got divorced when I was nine, and now like my dad and my stepmom and my mom are like best friends that hang out all the time.

My mom and my yeah, my mom and my stepmom go shopping together.

No, oh bro, like they it's like therapeutic for them.

I'm like, I mean, that's probably cool, but it's probably kind of strange too, right?

Yeah, you know, here's the thing it's honestly so this is what this is I actually been around them.

Have you been around them and like interacted with that?

Oh, so so much.

And when my mom had remarried, my mom's actually she just got divorced again, unfortunately.

But like they would all hang out, like the the couples.

It was like that was that was what was weird because I was like, ah, but but here's what I can tell you.

My dad, um, it was when I was I was 17.

So this was like probably um, I don't know, like uh I don't know how many years that is eight years after they got divorced.

So my dad, he never said a bad word about my mom ever.

He always made sure to take the high road.

He just he always, no matter what led me back to like, hey, that's your mom, you need to love her, you know, all that kind of stuff.

And but he told me when I was when I was that age, I said, Dad, I'm like, how are you like still such good friends with mom?

And now how is she like starting to become friends with like you know, my stepmom?

And he goes, son, he's like, I was driving down the road one day.

He goes, and she had called me, he goes, and she made me so mad.

He's like, she was just picking at everything.

And he goes, and when I hung up the phone, I said, God, I don't know what to do.

Because he goes, I'm about at the point where if this doesn't stop, he's like, I'm gonna make a decision to just like keep my kids away from her because I can't do this anymore.

And then he's just said, he's like, I heard like in my spirit, just like, can you love her like a sister?

Yeah, can you love her like she's your sister?

Because she is, you know, in the kingdom of God.

And he goes, Yeah, I can make that decision.

And he goes, That day forward, he was like, it was like everything changed.

And so I rem I mean, and then I kind of remember he was like, It was when you were like 13, so it was like four years after.

And I remember things had started to get better after that, like Christmas time.

I didn't have to choose what parents' house to go to.

She just came over, you know.

Like, um, so there were some good things in it.

But man, like I mean, my dad, he just goes, he's like, if we thought of everything like that, how much better would this entire world be?

Can you love them like you're that they're your sister?

They're like they're your brother, like, yeah, they've hurt you, yeah, you've gone through this, but it doesn't mean, and yeah, their situation now over the years has become this like, you know, like if my mom's going through something, she calls my stepmom to talk to her, like you know, it's become it's become more of that.

But at first it was a very just like, hey man, I'm gonna love you like Jesus has asked me to love you, and then we're just gonna see what happens.

Yeah.

And um, you know, that's one of my my dad's sayings, he would always say, he'd say to me every day, son, you can never go wrong with love.

And this is one of the things he would always say, you know, and like, and I wish I could tell you, I've exemplified that perfectly in my life.

Um, but I do know that as we're trying to, especially this part welcoming opponents back in, yeah, you know, that that's the that's the key, you know.

Yeah, it's good.

Man.

Dude, thanks for chatting.

Appreciate it, man.

Yeah, man.

I enjoyed it.

Thank you.

Hope to have you on again here pretty soon.

Sounds good.

I'm about to have my fourth cup of coffee, too.

So all right, man.

All right.

See ya.

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at Celebration ORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.