After the Message: What Did Jesus Really Say About Truth

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration for Chairman Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at Celebration ORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.

Yeah, welcome to After the Message.

Uh, if you um haven't joined us before, basically what we do here is we talk about the last message from Sunday.

And today uh I'm joined by none other than Pastor Keith.

Pastor Keith, how are you?

What is up, man?

I am doing well.

It's uh it's great.

It's great to be here.

It's great to see you in person, right?

As opposed to uh like on our computer screen screen figure.

Yes, and so um so it's good to be here, man.

And we just recorded um our service for the weekends, so I'm excited about that and honored to be here, man.

So this is great.

Yeah, it's good.

Um first of all, are we gonna have a football season?

Bro, you know what?

Um if I had a magic eight ball, I would say all signs point to no.

It doesn't look good.

Yeah.

Um, which is which is heartbreaking.

Um and I said, And you know what?

I think the crazy tension of it is, man, is like I think everybody's asking a version of that question.

Are we gonna have blank?

Are we gonna have blank?

Yeah.

Hey, are we gonna have church again?

Yeah, are we like everybody can fill in that blank with everything?

And of course, yes, we are.

Um, but the reason why we're asking that question is because organizations like ours, NFL and others, how do we do this in a way that's safe?

Um, and so we of course have some plans, but for the NFL, man, like I I literally don't know.

Yeah like something that is so driven by fan participation and just the physical nature of it, yeah, it'll be a miracle.

It's not impossible, but it'll be a miracle.

I was kind of thinking, uh, and if anybody's an engineer out there and and maybe they're already working on this, but like a helmet that's all encompassing of your face, so it's breathable, but at the same time, almost like a mask, you know what I mean?

I don't know if it's possible.

I don't know, but maybe like there's like a a material that can I don't know.

I was just kind of thinking about it.

I like what you're thinking, it's like something the astronauts would use.

Yeah, yeah.

Similar to that.

Maybe there's a little bit of oxygen flow in there.

So here's the reason.

I think you're excited about football because you want to see what Brady's gonna do for Tampa Bay.

Right.

Yeah.

So I can just go ahead and give you the forecast on this now.

It's I never ever imagined that I would even have the opportunity to like Tom Brady.

And here we are, but it's amazing how putting on a different jersey can just change things.

It is.

There's a sermon in there somewhere.

Facts.

You know it.

Yeah, every I practice my material when I'm just talking to you guys, so yes, it's great.

Um, speaking of sermon, we're not doing like quote unquote sermons right now.

We're having more of discussions, and I think it's great uh what did Jesus say or what did Jesus really say because you know, as the church we have doctrine and theology and all those things are wonderful, but sometimes you can things can just get convoluted.

Oh, for sure.

And I think this is great to kind of recenter us of man, why what did Jesus actually really say about this and not kind of what Pastor Josh said, like a secondhand revelation.

Like, let's let's just go look at it.

Yeah.

And and and try and try to pull out like what is he trying to speak to us through it?

So um how did this kind of come about like for you to decide to to move forward with this series?

Like, was it something you had seen or was it something just kind of on your mind?

That's a that's a good question, man.

I think um I think I was watching um I was watching our whole story Bible reading plan, you know, you and and I saw the format of the conversations on there, and I was like, man, that's really good that they're having these great conversations in these short segments and it gets other people involved.

But what I I think the idea of what did Jesus really say, I had planned on like doing a series where I was just gonna preach it.

Um and so I'm like, okay, let me let me just go through and pick out these topics and and spin the process of studying it.

But I think somehow like the collaboration of realizing that if I were to do that, I could I could run the risk of perpetuating the thing that you just said where you have doctrine and I'm coming in with like my feelings, my perspective, my views, and even though I really do my best to root myself in the scriptures and the original intent, original audience, and how does that translate to us?

Doing my best with that, but I felt it was important to involve other voices so that we all can share our perspective.

Obviously, we're going to land on the truth of what God's word says, but but I think I think what I've seen in my spiritual upbringing and having been a part of not a lot of churches, but been exposed to different teachings and um things like that.

I have I have lived a portion of my life like understanding passages of scripture in ways that didn't incorporate grace.

And I didn't understand it.

But the way that the scriptures were weaponized, it made me feel like, okay, so I have to do these eight things, and if I make this one mistake, then somehow I'm out of the will, out of the grace of God, and there's no redemption except I have to I have to pay it back.

And I mean this is literally a theology that I was um that I was exposed to where, okay, you make a mistake, and uh you know what, I'll just make it plain.

Okay, financial struggle, yeah, wasn't able to tithe, wasn't working for a period of time, and I actually heard a teaching that says, Okay, well, if you're a robber, then can a man rob God?

But yet you do it when you rob him of your tithe and offering, and then connected that thought to a passage of scripture in the New Testament that talked about how thieves will not have a part in the kingdom of God.

So they connected these concepts without considering grace and said, So if you did not give, you are robbing God.

And the Bible even says that if you're a robber, you won't make it into the kingdom of God.

Come on.

So I literally was like, so I gotta pay back.

Like, how far back do I pay?

Do I pay back ever since I was working, or do I pay back since I've recognized that Jesus is Lord?

Like and and it was it was the most oppressive um and deflating season in regards to like really trying to progress in your faith.

How did you sleep?

Man, like um, not much.

You just asked God for a lot of forgiveness.

And just like you just you just didn't.

And it took it took a while for me to be exposed to understanding, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And so certainly God provides guidelines.

And yes, he has things that he expects us to do, but understanding, how do I make sure that I recognize what grace is?

And grace is not permission to sin, it empowers you actually to live in righteousness, but making sure that we rightly divide things.

So I said that to say there's a lot of times that people will say things, oh, it's in the Bible.

You know, the Bible says this.

This is a great idea, it's in the Bible.

And while it may be in the Bible, if we don't rightly divide it and then actually see, like, what did Jesus actually say about this?

Yeah, how do we see him manifesting this?

And something that I I I believe is kind of like one of the undergirding themes is like Jesus is perfect theology.

And while we can examine different words and background studies, and believe me, I I love that.

I nerd out on that stuff.

At the end of the day, Jesus says, I come in the volume of the book, everything points to him and from him.

So I always try to find, no matter what these theological thoughts are, how does it converge on the person of Jesus?

How did he actually walk this out?

Because that's meant to be a demonstration for us.

So I think that was kind of like the burden on my heart, especially living in um the culture that we're in now with cancel culture, the culture that we're in now with uh with with this heightened focus and awareness of racism and division and all the stuff we're dealing with, these are real things.

How do we navigate this as Christians, even if we have different viewpoints?

And I think that's the thing that's been heartbreaking is man, you look at social media and you have people who both love the same God but can't love one another.

Those things bothered me.

So I just wanted to examine what does Jesus say about these things so that way we can we can celebrate our differences but still somehow be unified in our ability to recognize that Jesus is Lord.

And so yeah, I'm not saying the series is gonna ultimately do that, but it's gonna allow us to pick some topics and look at what Jesus really says.

So no matter where you land at, politically, racially, any of those things, this is what Jesus actually says.

It's the objective truth that we all have to conform to instead of trying to form it around what we already our personal preferences.

Yeah, and that's a long answer, I'm sorry.

It is a long answer, but it's the it's a great answer.

And uh one of the one of the great things about it, like you like you said, was the ability to see different perspectives and discourse, discussion, whatever how conversation is honestly one thing that's so lacking in our society.

And especially when it comes to topics uh about spirituality and following God, you know, it just it's everything is blanket statements instead of I mean, I don't know.

I I look at Jesus and I see him just sitting around the table talking to people.

I mean, obviously he was in the synagogue and everything, but a lot of the encounters that we have are just conversations, you know, and so it it is important for us to to continue to keep the line of communication open, and I think this series does a great job at being able to do that.

And it also shows us that we don't have it all figured out, absolutely not, you know, and and and we can learn from one another whether whether you have been following God for a long time or a little, like there are things that I love hearing from new Christians because it reminds me, oh man, yes, that's a that's a truth that I thought that I got too high and mighty for, and it humbles me in a sense.

You get what I'm saying?

And yeah, absolutely.

And here's what I'll tell you.

I remember um I remember I was talking to uh a friend of mine and I was well into my faith journey.

I I'd probably been walking with God for probably like 10 years, but this individual, they've been walking with God much longer, had more credentials, um, were further along in their in their developmental process.

And so I remember um he asked me to uh to lead something, and I felt uncomfortable because I'm like, well, no, like you need to do it, man.

Like you you have like you've been doing this for 20 plus years.

I'm only 10 years in the game.

And so I remember um I reluctantly did it, and at the end of it, as we were walking out, like I s he had pulled out his notebook and was like, Hey man, like when you said this, man, where'd you get that?

Like I literally saw someone who had more mileage in the kingdom than me, but he was he was he was touched by the words that that that God had inspired me to share.

Now here's the thing this is not a a moment of saying, like, hey man, look at how I function.

But what I realized is that he actually gave me the confidence and recognizing that we all have a perspective, and sometimes what happens is we get more longevity, we we lose our objectivity because at some point you've been you've been begin to conform to, well, this is how I interpret this, this is how I process that we connect it to preconceived thoughts.

So when I came in with like a a perspective that maybe didn't have the baggage of of denomination or or some other things attached to it, he was like, Man, I never looked at that passage that way.

Like, man, that's gonna really give me something to go back and research and study.

So to your point, I love listening to new Christians because sometimes they're not muddled down with all the the theological constructs that can sometimes restrict us from actually seeing more to the text than maybe what our boundaries tell us.

Those boundaries are important, and once you kind of get past that furthest first observation, then you have to go back and say, Okay, who's the original audience?

Whatever we don't just can't just like make up stuff, sure.

But sometimes that journey begins with having a a perspective that's not bound by historical baggage.

Yeah, yeah.

And it one of the things that I like to s that I like to tell myself and remind myself, like the Bible can be complicated, the gospel's not.

Okay, so just take a deep breath, you know what I mean.

Try and learn as much as you can on your own, and then bring other people in to help you learn.

So um, but on on the topic of truth, uh one of the things that that I've always been fascinated with are the I am statements.

And so Jesus says, I am truth.

And I'm I want to get your help with this.

Can you like help frame or articulate that I am statement in in a way that I get what he's saying, but but I almost don't know if it I almost don't know what it really means.

Like, how does a being embody an attribute?

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does.

It does.

So so can you kind of help me along that path?

That's um so when Jesus says, I am the way, I am the truth, and I am the life, he's he's talking to an an audience of people.

His disciples and others that have become that became became followers of him, they all have their baggage.

And and and what we know is that that this audience was predominantly mostly Jewish.

So what that meant is that there is a a Jewish way of thinking, there's a Jewish way of belief, and it's dip it's deep in history and and all these things that actually we can still extract and learn from today.

Like these, this is uh this is who Jesus was, he was Jewish.

But what that meant also was is that you had the Pharisees and they had these very strict regimens that was like, well, Jesus is doing some incredible things.

Like man, he's he's healing people, he's doing these things.

However, it doesn't check the box of what we understand regarding the law because he's doing some of the stuff on the Sabbath.

And he's doing some of these things in ways that man, like he's he's he's challenging us in ways that makes us uncomfortable.

Now, here's the thing that we have to remember.

So the Old Testament, like it's as we read it in the Bible and the books that we have, it's not it's not chronological.

So we just kind of like read through it and and and that's it.

However, it's it's you know, the actuality and the timeline is a little bit different.

So what ends up happening at the end of the Old Testament, and by the time we get to the New Testament, it's called 400 years of silence prophetically.

So ultimately the way that people would engage God, it was like they didn't have the Bible as we have it now.

Now in the Old Testament, there was a point where they had the the the law, but there the the organized writings of prophets and all that stuff, that just wasn't available to them.

So like Isaiah, he was a living being.

So while he was doing ministry and speaking words of encouragement, like those words weren't written, he's just speaking it.

Now we benefit from what those written words were.

So when they say 400 years of prophetic silence, that means that there was four hundred years where there wasn't a prophet who was updating the people of God on what God was ultimately saying.

That intertestamental period caused a couple of things to be birthed out of it.

And so you have um the Essenes, which was a group of people that were very pious, and they felt like we need to be completely removed from culture.

So that's kind of like what you would see in the John the Baptist.

We're just gonna detach ourselves, we're gonna be in the wilderness, we're gonna be those groups of people.

This is kind of where we get um the Dead Sea Scrolls.

These individuals were so remote and removed.

I know I'm getting into some stuff, but it's it's gonna come together.

So you have the Essenes and then you have the the Pharisees.

They believed that the culture was was necessary, but they had to determine how much do we engage this.

So the Pharisees, they were they were pious, they they were devout followers of the law, they recognized in this context, they recognized that Rome was something that you had to tolerate.

However, they wanted to still pick and choose how much they really needed to be connected to it.

It was like a necessary evil.

Okay.

Then you have the Sadducees, and the Sadducees were like all in.

They were like fully, they politicized every aspect of their belief system.

So you can kind of see these common threads even in today's culture.

Sure.

Where you have people that are like, Man, I don't want to have anything to do with the culture.

Then you have others that are like, Man, it's necessary, so we'll figure out a way to kind of deal with it.

Then you have others that have somehow found a way to politicize their faith, and they're just fully all in.

So when Jesus comes on the scene, each of them are looking at the law and more importantly, looking at Jesus through the lens of being an Essene, being a Pharisee, being a Sadducee, being a scribe, those who kind of were the ones who kind of watched the word of God and making sure no one got out of line.

So each of them were carrying a pillar that they deemed to be the way of doing things.

Gotcha.

So the Pharisees were critical of the Sadducees and the Essenes, the Essenes were critical of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and vice versa.

So everybody had beef with one another because they all felt that they were the right way to do things.

So Jesus comes on a scene and all of them are looking at him and like, okay, man, like he has Messiah tendencies, but he's not doing it the way that the Pharisees do it.

He's not doing it the way that the Sadducees do it, he's not doing it the way that the Essenes do it.

So they all kind of have their own take on it.

So when he makes this statement, he's saying you have to shred yourself of all your preconceived notions and recognize this that I am the way that things have to be done because I am the truth.

And if you can recognize that, then this is the way that you get life.

So you look at this statement as they all converge on one another.

If we can do things God's way, because Jesus is the truth, that is what's going to produce life.

Not the Pharisees' way, not the Sadducees' way, not the Essenes way.

So when Jesus is making a statement about that, what he's saying is I am now telling you that I am the metric that you look to to determine what truth is.

I am the objective truth in the context of belief, the way that you function.

You have to measure that by me instead of the other way around.

You don't compare me to culture.

No, it's from me that you build your culture from.

And that was a radical shift.

So Jesus is saying when it comes to truth, I am the literal embodiment of truth because the truth sets us free.

Like it's these powerful statements that he's showing and modeling.

But he's like, if you really want to know what that looks like, look at me.

Look at me.

I am truth.

If you really want to know what freedom looks like, look at me.

If you want to know what um engagement in other cultures look like, look at me.

I am the way because I am the truth.

And if you can recognize that and you can build your life on that, from that is going to create a place of of freedom and wholeness that um that can't that can withstand the test of time.

Yeah.

So that's ultimately kind of how we we look at how Jesus can describe himself as an attribute because it's connected to the audience that he was speaking to.

Yeah.

Do you think that there has always been a heavy dose of like relative and subjective uh truth?

Or do you think it's more pronounced now?

I think no, absolutely not.

I think it's yes, there's always been um very present.

In fact, these are ideas that that go back to like Plato.

Like this is like Greek philosophy stuff.

So when we talk about like um like maybe if you ever wa like listen to any of like our teachings, you'll hear like, you know, Western Greek mindsets.

Like you'll often hear us like kind of connect those two.

Yeah.

What that means is like the Greek mindset was one of deep, deep intellectualism, incredibly like thought provoking and things like that.

So this is why Paul's ministry was so powerful.

So when like and and he spoke in codes, and so if we don't like understand some of his um the context of some of his statements, we we we'll miss it.

So there's a p there's a passage in the book of Acts where Paul is like walking by and he's like, Oh, I see that you have an altar, a tomb made to the unknown God.

Right, yeah, and then he begins to unpack it.

Well, in that Greek philosophy, that Greek world, they had a very subjective truth and they were very broad about the way that they engage God.

This is like pantheism and all this other stuff.

So Paul is fully aware of like this very broad intellectual, well, what is truth and who is truth and can truth really like these existential concepts?

So by all means, that is not a that is not a Western thing, that is not a new thing, that is something that has existed for eons.

So yeah, I think there's always been groups of people um that have just kind of used that.

In fact, when you when you look at like um when you look at scripture and you kind of look at this idea from the very beginning, and this is something that's helped me, when you have like Adam and Eve, and you have the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and you see that they had an opportunity to choose life and from that tree of life allow that to define what good and evil is, or they could take it upon themselves to define what's right, what's wrong, what's light, what's dark, what's good and what's evil.

That means that now you are able to establish your own truth, subjective truth, relative truth, like I'm able to determine that.

And because we didn't allow life to determine that, or our source to determine that, man has from that point forward had been living in a state of subjectivism, relativism, because we chose the knowledge of good and evil, we chose to define it for ourselves instead of letting the source define it for us.

Yeah, it's it's tied in with the original sin.

That's crazy to think about, and ultimately pride and yeah, that that that's uh that's interesting.

I I hadn't really thought of it that way.

I guess I just and everybody magnifies the time that they're in, you know, because we haven't experienced other times, so you know, I guess you just you sort of um what's the word I'm looking for?

You you sort of uh project like a fantasy of what it used to be like, and so today you're like it's probably worse than it ever has been.

I don't know, it just seems so so divisive and and weaponizing to to for subjective and and relativity.

I think you know, man, um I don't think there's anything new under the sun.

I just think that right now we have we have greater access to it.

We s we see it a lot more and um and I think that in and of itself can um can magnify it.

And certainly it can it can make it heightened and cause people to react to it.

But the concepts in and of themselves, is this new?

Absolutely not, man.

I'm I'm watching um I'm currently watching um The Last Dance, the whole Michael Jordan deal.

With my son.

And so for so for me, I'm I've I've had the here's the thing why it's so poetic for me.

Um I was I was raised, and so this is gonna tell my age a little bit.

I was raised uh watching initially Dr.

J and then um, you know, Philly Guy.

So Dr.

J and he was like our our all-star, then Alan Iverson, but in that same genre, that's when Jordan came up.

So that was kind of like me and my pop's like basketball era.

He obviously goes back further than that, but that's kind of when I remember it.

Yeah.

Then when I had my son Keith Jr., it was the Kobe era.

And so then um De Niro was born towards the end of the Kobe era, going into the LeBron era.

So now with my son Caleb, he's a LeBron guy.

So what I've noticed is like I'm a Jordan guy, but I really have deep appreciation for LeBron.

Um, but then my son, Keith Jr., he loves Kobe because that's what he was raised seeing.

And now with Caleb, like he loves um, he absolutely loves LeBron.

So watching The Last Dance, it has allowed me to be able to show him, like, okay, so we see LeBron and obviously the pressure he's under, all that.

Now let's go back and and look at Jordan.

Yeah.

And and what he's able to see is like, man, like, yeah, social media wasn't a thing, but it was constant pressure.

Like you just see that these things aren't new.

It's just that we just have it all in the palm of our hands.

So I think to your point, is uh athletes being harassed every step that they take new?

No, we just are able to see it now.

Yeah.

So this whole idea of truth, is it, is it and the subjectivism is it, is it new?

We just able to express it more and we it seems like it's more in front of us.

Even when we think about like um racism and stuff like that, man, and this is kind of like my my own little deal, like man, we're we're living in an age where it is it is deeply divided and decided, like I mean, and it's it's it's hurtful.

And so here's what I'll say it is hurtful.

We see it, it's in front of us.

We're talking about it.

It's a very real thing.

But is it the same thing that my grandfather grew up in?

Right.

Probably not.

Yeah, and I'm I'm not saying that we don't have a lot of work to do, but it's important to have context.

But when you don't have context of like ancestors who grew up like one generation removed from slavery or grew up during like an actual very clear segreg segregated South or whatever, like, yes, we have a long way to go, but to say that now is the worst it's ever been, that just would not be truth.

So so that's kind of like my my take on some things is like, yeah, it's easy to magnify and have very strong feelings about what we're seeing, yeah.

But recognizing that there are others that have come before us and that have had to walk through some similar journeys, it's it's like a shared experience and we can learn from that instead of thinking that ours is the worst of it.

Yeah.

And and ultimately it's what are we gonna do?

Like, are we gonna take the personal responsibility you know and for the time that we're in?

Yep.

Kind of like you were saying, like it may not be the worst and and who's to judge what's the worst and what's not, but ultimately, man, like we need to be faithful where we're at.

Exactly.

And and I think that so often we can get focused on well, it's not as bad as the comparison game, you know, that we do with people.

Yep.

We need to take our personal responsibility for ourselves.

So indeed.

Um one of the things that sticks out to me, especially in in Christianity today, is how the convenience of the world's truth can impact our theology.

Um, but also how, and you and I have talked about this before too, but denominational and and different sects of Christianity, what would you say to someone who's like, Me?

This is I guess a selfish question for me.

Like, I just want to know the actual truth, you know, like how do I how do I how do I get on that road?

Yeah, and and how do I, without just putting blinders on and forsaking everything else around me?

What's the best way for me to seek after truth?

Obviously looking at scripture and looking at what Jesus had to say, but helping bring other resources in to further my understanding.

Does that question make sense?

It does, it does.

And I I think one, um give it room to to breathe.

So like so for our church, we're we're a non-denominational church, and so people are often like, okay, so what do you believe?

What does that mean?

Yeah.

Um and then you have to often spend time explaining it.

So what denominations have done is ultimately they they have a set group of beliefs, and so I will call my denomination this.

So when I say this, you automatically know what my beliefs are about these given topics.

So it's not meant that denominations somehow are are wrong or they miss the mark or they create their own theology.

It's just their way of saying, hey, for us, this is what we believe about these subjects.

So when I say that I am a Methodist, this is what that means.

When I say that I'm a Baptist, this is what that means.

But it's not meant to put anybody in a box, but it just lets you know, like, oh, based on that, I have a general understanding of your of your theology around these given subjects.

Yeah.

So non-denominational, it's it gets a little bit more messy because now it's like, okay, we're not conforming to any um any governing body that tells you this is how you have to believe, which then means that what happens if a greater revelation comes that conflicts with one of the bylaws or one of the things that's uh already been established?

Do you guys update it or do you just hold the line like, hey man, we've had this belief for 200 years, so it is what it is.

So I think that's kind of the freedom that we've been able to express is that even as a church for us, man, over the past couple of years, our our theology hasn't changed, but I would certainly say that it's probably enhanced and how we value certain things differently as a result of of us recognizing the the importance of family and community and scripture, and so we emphasize things a little bit more.

So could someone give us a label and be like, oh, based on that, we could define you as this.

Sure, but that's not meant to put us into a box.

So what I would tell you, man, is that um a healthy way to continue and to pursue this journey is is to give yourself grace.

Um I love, I love to actually understand.

Something I don't do very well.

And that's why I'm looking at you when I say this.

Give yourself grace.

Yeah.

Um I do think that we'd like to kind of put our heads down and just like, okay, this is I'm I gotta I got a straight path.

And I I find that um that truth is more like a it's a it's a river.

It'll guide you, it'll lead you, and you'll you may bump into some things and it the but the current will keep you moving forward.

So it's okay to to trust the process and you'll hear some things, and as you continue to study, to show yourself approved, and you're getting um you're doing the appropriate background studies and things like that.

I I just believe that scripture engagement is the most important thing.

Scripture engagement and community are the most important things that will help you to stay on the right path.

So that's a simpler answer, but but I do think that it's held true for me, and and it's something I'll say to you.

But give yourself grace as you're on this journey.

Yeah, and and one thing that kind of segues into something that Pastor Mike said that was super prof profound and something that you should probably protect yourself against.

He said, when you seek after your own motive, it will take truth captive.

So what's your motive for truth in the first place or seeking after ultimate truth?

Is it for personal gain?

Yes.

Or is it to to to become more like Christ?

Yes.

And I think the thing is, man, that we have to remember is that is that is that intent precedes content.

So the intentions of the question, like we have to resolve that because if we don't, then you're gonna basically be able to pick and choose which aspects of the response you really want to to hold true, man.

I can't tell you, man, as a as a preacher of the word of God that I have um you know, as you where, you know, you're you're young in the faith, man, and you kind of hear these tagline um thoughts or even scriptures that are like, oh man, that's powerful.

Right.

And I'm just gonna repeat it because I heard it, it's powerful.

And then as I got older in the faith and began to understand background studies and context and all that stuff, I realized like, well, man, when I preached that five years ago, I kind of took that out of context.

Like I didn't consider the original audience, I didn't consider some of these nuances.

You know, can God breathe on it and use it and move us forward?

Absolutely.

But I think there's been times where I'll go back and revisit a passage of scripture, like, man, where's that scripture at?

And I'll look it up.

And I'm like, oh man, that'll fit perfectly with this point that I want to make.

And so I know how I think that particular passage or thought will fit.

And then when I begin to study it, I'm like, dang it, that's not what it's saying at all.

So I have a choice to make.

I can either hold on to what I wanted to say, kind of like when I told you about how, you know, when I sat in that that one tithing message and it said, like, hey, like, if you've not tithe, you're robbing God and you need to pay him back.

Like, clearly, that individual read into that text a precursor that was beneficial, um, and that was what was presented, without considering grace, without considering a whole litany of other things in scripture that would completely um undo that position that he had.

And so for me, as a as a person that that takes studying the word of God and presenting it very seriously, none of us are perfect, but I I do believe that what Pastor Michael's saying is like the intentions in the way that we engage scripture that will determine how we process the content that we get from it.

Yeah.

And it's it's super important to not just rely on 30 to 45 minutes on Sunday, you know, like that is that is a way for us to come together as a body and to be encouraged.

But again, going back to responsibility, like you have to take personal responsibility for your for your walk with with God.

And a a big portion of that is what you alluded to with scripture engagement, is so huge to understand what I even believe in the first place and how I got to that point.

And it's not just what Pastor Josh Hazell calls like secondhand revelations.

Like you can't expect firsthand, what does he say?

You can't expect uh firsthand results with secondhand revelations, and he calls it his thrift shop theology.

First shop theology theology.

I was like, man, that's great.

Yeah, that'll be a good book.

It is good.

Um I'm glad I'm so glad I gave that to Pastor Josh Hazell, and I'm gonna write my own book on it.

Um this this story that we looked at with with Barabbas and Jesus is is is super powerful.

And um is there anything else when when you were studying that that that stuck out to you at all?

Or do you did you kind of did we kind of cover it on Sunday?

But I I think that there are certain cultural nuances that that cannot be overstated.

And and I and I think the the the big thing is like when you have this this massive moment where Pilate is in this position of authority and him like I you know, my wife had mentioned like how he caved into pressure.

And I remember the very first time I had ever preached from that passage, I preached that passage from um as a cautionary tale of Pilate, of someone who doesn't see anything wrong with it, but allows pressure.

So I literally do and this was when I was a youth pastor, allowing peer pressure to lead you to do something that you know that's not right.

So there's obviously that part that can be explored and understanding and asking ourselves, man, like am I allowing the pressure of society to cause me to to make a judgment on truth or to distance myself from truth that's that's that's completely contrary to what I know I'm supposed to do.

I see nothing wrong with this, or I see what I'm supposed to do with this, but I'm allowing pressure to to dictate.

So that's something that I think we can't overstate.

But then I think the the premise of it all, which is like when Jesus and Pilate are talking initially, and again we said this, but I just think it's worth restating.

Sure.

Um but when Pilate says, like, are you the king of the Jews?

And they have this whole exchange, and Pilate says, Your people have handed you over to me, that is so powerful when we understand the symbolism of who Pilate is with this this pagan this pagan man who believes in multiple gods and is like that whole context of culture and carnality and and and and all those things that go with it.

And he's saying the people that are supposed to be representing truth, the people that are supposed to be protecting truth, the people that are supposed to be following truth, have literally handed truth over to the culture and is allowing culture to make a determination on what the truth really is.

And man, I think that we clearly live in a world now where that is one thousand percent the case, where where we are allowing the world to dictate what truth is.

And we're not talking about things such as like intolerance and ignorance and things like that.

I'm talking about just like what does God's word say about this?

How do we speak the truth in love?

How do we extend grace, but also be unwavering in what the word of God says about this?

But we've allowed culture to take certain things captive, and now we're getting our cues from that.

So now it's almost like we've we've lost our influence because we've given truth over to the world.

And so I think that's a thing that that that concerns me.

It's a thing that I clearly see and it's something that I think we have to fight against.

Because unfortunately, you know, when we talk about um representing King Jesus, mm-hmm and and we recognize like the the historical baggage with that.

So you talk about you talk about truth and and and and particularly whether it be in this country or in other countries, we we have we have we're Christian, but watch this.

Like the people who represent Christ haven't always done it well.

Sure.

So what ends up happening is misrepresentation, bad behavior, oppression, all these things in the name of Christ, which is actually people going back to truth that have misread or misinterpreted or brought their own biases in the scriptures to justify bigotry and hatred and all these other things.

They've modeled that in the name of Christ, not realizing that each time they did that, we're losing our influence because we're giving it over to the world.

So now that we're on the other end of the spectrum, we now have to try to defend what we believe because it's been misrepresented for so long.

Yeah.

And and it puts you in a spot where it almost is like, man, the game is just getting started, but we're already down 25 points.

And we got to make up so much ground and model love and joy and peace and and and common ground and and acceptance, but not affirmation of everything.

Like that's kind of the messy place that we find ourselves in.

But that's what happens when truth is handed over to culture.

Yeah, it's hard to know where to be where to be defensive and where to be offensive.

Absolutely.

In my opinion.

Yeah.

Um just because there have been so many things done that maybe I wouldn't agree with, or maybe I think is uh is is misinterpreting the Bible, you know.

So uh I definitely want to defend my faith, but I also want to go on the on the offensive as well and say, hey, that's not right.

Here, here, here's what it is.

So um really appreciate you coming on again.

I love love talking to you about this stuff.

So I love it.

I can do this all day, which is a problem.

So uh if if you guys want to reach out, if you got any questions about what we talked about today, you can email us uh ATM, which stands for after the message at celebrationorl.org.

All right, thank you, sir.

All right, peace and blessings.

Thank you for joining us for after the message.

To learn more about celebration for chair in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at celebrationorl or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.