After the Message: What Did Jesus Really Say About Cancel Culture

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at CelebrationORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.

Hey church, welcome to After the Message.

If you are unfamiliar with what After the Message is, it's pretty self-explanatory.

We talk about the message after it's already been done.

So that's what we're going to do today.

And we're talking about last Sunday's message, which was cancel culture and what cancel culture is and what the kingdom has to say about cancel culture.

And so I'm joined by our panel from Sunday.

So thank you guys so much for coming back.

Let's get this show on the road, shall we?

Thanks for having us, Nate.

Yeah, you're welcome.

Thank you for having us.

Welcome to my home.

First of all, I thought it was really cool that we actually got to speak into this because it's something that uh the world just talks about mainly.

And so I thought it was cool that we kind of took a stand on it.

You know what I mean?

And said, like, hey, this is kind of uncomfortable and difficult, but let's dive, let's dive headfirst into it.

So um the first thing that that kind of stuck out to me was the Pastor Keith, I believe you said there's so many opportunities for us to be offended in today's world.

And so I think the first question I want to pose is is this a new thing?

And I asked that a lot.

If you've ever listened to After Mess After the Message before, I've asked that a lot, but it's it's always interesting to me.

And obviously the the obvious answer is no, it's not a new thing.

But I want to know like how we got here and how it's so broadcast and how it's just it seems in my face more often than not.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely.

So what do you like?

What do you guys think that it's just because of the the exposure of it, or what's been your experience?

Because I don't remember being a teenager or in high school talking about cancel culture.

Sure.

Yeah.

I just think that the atmosphere is just so like charged.

Um and what I mean by that is you have so many people who are disgruntled or whatever.

And so when you have that, and then you have on top of it like social media where people can now say something in Japan, and I can see it immediately here in Orlando, Florida.

You know, so it's like, it's like, so if, and here's what we also do, there's so many of us who we will we will kind of tailgate on other people's like issues.

So it's like, and oftentimes we don't, we don't, we don't, we're not doing it to kind of, you know, go, oh, that's a good issue for me to jump on.

I think, especially now with the way that everything is charged, we want people to know that we're for them.

So if you are feeling some type of way, then I want you to know I'm for you, so I'm just gonna jump on with you.

So now you think about social media allowing everybody around the world to jump on it.

Oh, if you step on somebody's shoe, forget about it, you are no longer relevant.

Like, I mean, that is kind of like that becomes the storyline.

And so it's like, man, we are all our own like magazine at this point because of social media.

And so it's like, you know, we're we're everybody is the national inquiry.

Everybody is like, you know, I mean, everybody has that power because now I can just re you know, either I can retweet something or I can, I guess maybe people call it re-gramming.

Do you have a Twitter account?

I never I was I was never the Twitter sphere, so I have no idea.

You know, I don't know if he lives that I don't even know how you tweet.

I don't I honestly I don't even know what it looks like, how you do it.

Um, but gramming and all that kind of stuff, like I mean, it just goes everywhere.

So yeah, I think that it's just it's a combination of things to where we live in a very charged environment, and now you know, communication more than ever can get from one area to the next, and there's short pieces of information at that.

Yes, they're there, there it's it's it's like we've always talked about highlight reels, but they're they're they're even shorter than that now.

Like it's just a little blurp, and that is that is what lives on forever.

Yeah, and I think that's the that's the part of it that's that's a little bit of a shift for me.

So I guess I can say this as the elder statesman on his panel.

Um I remember a day where obviously social media wasn't a thing and all that stuff, but I even like I if we can if I could frame it this way, I remember when I used to watch the news, like watching the news, it was like when they said something, you knew they vetted it, you know that there was enough investigative research it was an actual journal.

It was actual journalists, and so now you're like, okay, so that that's I can actually take that as fact.

Nowadays, man, like it's like it's a rush to be heard, not a rush to inform.

Yeah.

So because people are just rushing to be heard, they'll say something like, hey, here's a developing story.

But let me give you my opinions, my feelings, all these other things that go along with it.

And then you form your feelings, you get all invested emotionally into it.

And then when you find out that's not a thing, the often by the time we try to pull it back, that's not given with the same energy that it was given when we put it out there.

And then we I don't think we realize the toxic, um, the toxicity that just continues to be in the atmosphere that prevents us all from ever getting that clean air again.

So I just think that that's kind of the problem.

I think that's contributed to the cancel culture thing because people by nature don't like to be wrong.

They don't like to say I'm sorry, they don't like to pull things back.

No, and so when you watch just the news or anything else, it's created an environment where I just want to be heard instead of like, man, I'd rather be slow to speak.

Yeah, but when I do speak, I'm saying something that's meaningful, that's truthful, and that's been vetted.

Right, that's certainly not a part of it, and unfortunately, it gets our emotions all stirred up and everything.

So I think that contributes to it.

Yeah, humility is definitely scarce in today's day and age, that's for sure.

Yes.

Um, kind of jumping on the back of social media, have you guys ever experienced personally um like being canceled by someone else?

And have you have you had the fear of going back and like checking your timeline from 2008 to make sure that you didn't, you know what I mean?

Like, have you done that?

Because I know I don't even have it anymore because and I think part of the reason why I don't is because of that, because I don't want someone to judge me off of an 18-year-old Nate as opposed to 30-year-old Nate.

Sure, yeah.

And Pastor Megan talked about the lot about that last week was you can be judged that way.

Yeah, yeah.

I'd love to meet that 18-year-old.

I'll tell you, I'll tell you that.

Do you think 18-year-old Nate and Josh would be friends?

Like, oh, we you know, we'd have some uh conversation.

No, but I yes, to answer your question.

It's so common that people are scared of what they've done in the past that Instagram has a thing called archive, where it doesn't delete the picture, but it you can hide it from other people watching.

It's ridiculous.

And I've done it twice, and I'll tell you why.

Um as someone who's in the youth, like I this was before we even planted the church.

There was this thing, RIP, called the Vans Warp Tour.

And the Vans Warp Tour had a bunch of just loud bands, right?

And the the culture was very different.

It was just a bunch of people with tattoos and tank tops and just sunburn and just listening to music out loud, right?

There's a lot of dirt too at Vans.

Oh my gosh.

Awful.

And before I launched, before we launched Celebration Orlando, there was a picture of me, and I'm I am jumping on people's backs with no shirt, and like I call it my rice picking hat.

It was like a straw hat, it was really bad.

I can say that.

I think that's fine.

Do you gonna cancel me?

Is that what you're gonna do?

And so, and I'm jumping on people's back, I have no shirt, you see all my tattoos, and I'm screaming in the mic of the singer of the band.

Yeah.

Well, before we come down here, I'm like, man, what are what are parents gonna think?

I'm not doing anything wrong.

That's the culture I love and that I'm very accustomed to.

And I've actually connected with students that are from that culture, right?

But just because of the fear of students not giving me a chance to love and serve their student, yeah, I was just like, eh, maybe not here.

And I just took it down.

Wow.

And I think that's a great example of just the fear of being shamed.

And Lindsay, you talked about that on Sunday, which I had no idea the level of pain involved with shame.

Yeah.

Um, and so we're just scared.

And and that's me serving in a church, and I'm scared of what church people are gonna say as someone who works for a church.

So I just think that's crazy.

I know for me, one time, I I don't I don't know if I was canceled, but the idea of like the process of the events that unfolded, I would say probably feels to a very microscopic level, probably how it feels to be canceled, but without giving details, um a ton of them, um, something happened where um something I had done was misinterpreted as they the this person felt it's like me tripping over words right now, trying to say.

Look at some tissue out here.

Let's go.

I don't know how like people measure the Bible like, well, the Bible says, first come and bring it to your neighbor, and then it's so it was like one of those things where I was like, okay, I I and I didn't know what to do, so I brought it to my leader.

Then my leader ended up saying, like spilling the beans to the person.

So then the person thought I was not going to them and said it was a long, it was a thing.

And I was younger, it doesn't matter.

But the way they handled it was like the most heartbreaking thing for me to walk through because my intent all along was never to to like call this person out or whatever.

Like my heart was, hey, I'm going to my leader because I don't actually know what to do about this.

Can you give me some guidance?

But their interpretation of it was, hey, she doesn't care about me.

Yeah.

So the way it was responded to by them was like a mass email of like everybody got tagged.

Oh man, all these scriptures, like Lindsay is, and like name calling, there's just like it was the craziest thing.

And I received the email and it was like a weekend, so it was off that weekend.

I get the email, my heart sinks because it's like, oh my gosh, like I'm just processing this whole thing got way out of hand.

And I all I wanted to do was talk to this person.

Was like, no, that was not, I was not like, you just want to you want to talk to them.

You want them to understand who you are and what you were coming from in your heart.

And they did, they just said, I I don't want to talk.

They basically shut me, they canceled me.

They said, No, I'm not talking to you.

And so that for me was one of the hardest things I had to walk through because I could never resolve anything with that relationship.

I could never, they just said no.

And and then I was on blast with all these people.

It was the hardest thing.

So, I mean, that's probably the closest I've ever gotten to it.

Obviously, social media, I wasn't like blasted on the social media, but it wasn't a mass email blast.

So it was not fun.

Lindsay, you've made it.

You have been canceled, right?

Yeah, but I think I recovered from it.

You said something that I don't know, I guess it just like registered in my head that like cancel culture leaves like no room for resolve through reconciliation.

No discussion, no room for it.

And so it's like that's why it's not kingdom focused.

That's why it's not kingdom-minded.

Because it just leaves, and that's a prime example of it.

There's literally no, there's no like nothing's left on the table to like even go, or better yet, there is no table.

Like, it's just like, nope, done.

But like, what if Paul was canceled?

I thought about this afterward, like wow, Paul.

He, you know, we all know he was he was worth being canceled at a time.

But like he did so much more for the faith than like if he had been canceled based on his previous acts.

But and here's the beautiful thing is that with Paul, people tried to cancel him.

Like when they found out, like, hey, like, Paul's a believer, they're like, nah, man, that Paul?

Yeah, like it.

But there was other people that said, no, no, he's he's been changed.

Let's let's let's let me bring you in.

Let me like let's have a conversation, let's watch his journey, let's look at his growth.

And then they were all able to say, Oh, I see, yeah, the the Paul that we heard about, that's not who this guy is anymore.

So I'm glad you said that because that actually is a healthy way of showing someone who has a past, someone who is willing to recognize your future, bringing you into community, allowing community to discern it together, and let us move forward with what the calling and plan of God is, instead of like, let us just keep everybody at a distance.

I think that's a great reference.

Yeah.

Could you imagine if as the church, like we were intentional and like we actually went after those people and said, Hey, come here because we're gonna give you another opportunity.

Like, how powerful that would be, like someone who has been canceled, yeah, and we actually went after that person and said, Hey, I know that God has more for you, and I know that he's created you to be a certain way, and maybe you're not walking in that right now, but we have a door open for you.

You know what I mean?

Like, how powerful that would be as the American church, and I think that could really like shake the foundation of who we are as a culture.

For sure.

That's powerful.

I just think the church is so busy canceling people that we would be pulling double duty.

Yeah.

So we can go into that.

We don't have to be policies.

So, so okay, I kind of along those lines, what what is our responsibility, I guess, and what's the difference in, you know, Proverbs talks about like don't surround yourself with idiots.

Right.

You know, what's the difference in that as opposed to like being open and welcoming and welcoming those types of people?

Like, how do we it seems like a fine line?

Yes.

So, how do we walk that line, you guys think?

Wow.

Daniel, what do you think?

I don't I mean, you're just I am very, very hard.

So that's really, really hard.

Um, it's a lot of prayer at first before you start surrounding yourself around people that you know like probably don't love you.

Like that's I mean, that's not an easy thing to do.

But um it's really um and James says that mercy triumphs over judgment, and so it's giving that benefit of doubt or that grace.

And even recently for me, like before in like high school when like all this social media injustice and injustice stuff was popping up, like I was going in, like I was I was the tweeter, like I was tweeting people going off our I was going off our races, it was really crazy.

Um, but now like I've learned how to have conversations with people, like people on Facebook that I've been friends with for years, and we have different opinions.

I'm like, hey, have you ever thought about this or considered this or thought about it and this way?

And we've actually had to we've had a um we're like strengthening our relationship now that it's like okay, like let's how about we don't handle this over social media, let's text about it, call me about it, and then actually walk out the process of it instead of like casting the finger, like, no, you're wrong, you're stupid for doing this.

That's not what Jesus does, and we shouldn't do that either.

Right, absolutely.

Yeah, I agree.

And I and I think that I think it's okay to recognize that it's like it's there's a difference between canceling somebody and unfollowing something.

And I think that we if we can help have a healthy boundary around those things, so boundaries are good.

Like Dr.

Henry Cloud talks about the importance of having boundaries, and so I have an opportunity to choose the types of things that can influence me on a day-to-day basis.

I have a right to choose that.

However, what I don't have a right to do is I don't have a right to cancel anybody.

So so perfection is not a requisite for critiquing, but none of us are qualified to cancel that.

So I can I can I can observe and say, like, hey man, I'm not sure how I feel about this.

And as in this in the season that I'm in, and maybe be based off of just the way I'm wired, I'm choosing to not engage or or this.

So let me give you a practical example.

If I, if it if it comes to my attention that an organization that I that I go to, a place that I spend money, that they are taking those resources and are supporting racist activities, it's my choice to then say, I'm choosing to not engage in that anymore.

I'm not gonna continue to fund something that I am diametrically aroused to.

However, I am not gonna remove their dignity.

I'm not gonna try to take away people's jobs.

I'm just choosing to place a boundary around what I'm choosing to engage in.

And so I think that's a healthy balance for all of us to recognize that that canceling somebody is is something that's not kingdom, but I can create boundaries.

So unfollowing something or choosing not to give something influence into your life, I think that God would allow want us to do that.

Like I think the Bible talks about bad company corrupting good character.

I think we all have the responsibility of creating healthy boundaries, but we can't remove dignity while we're doing it.

Yeah, yeah.

I was thinking about this because I felt like we we touched on the accountability side of things, but I don't think we like dove fully into it on Sunday.

And you know, there is there we do have responsibility to hold people accountable, but I think where we sometimes get it wrong, and correct me if I'm wrong theological, but I have never been successful holding somebody accountable that I don't have a relationship with.

And so I feel like it's incredibly important to be so aware of the importance of your the sphere you have, like your your your people, your relationships, and that's where we have responsibility.

And so, like to your point now, you don't that balance of who do you let in your sphere and whatnot.

I think you have we we know there's like levels of closeness, but there's gotta be some relational component if there's going to be any benefit from holding them accountable because they're not gonna trust you, they're not gonna be open to your words, and if you and you I think you can measure that if you attempt to engage in a conversation from a you know a past high school friendship that you guys have differing views.

Well, if you don't come in with a a level of mutual respect and some semblance of like you know, relationship with one another, one another, it's never gonna lead to anywhere.

And I think you can kind of measure that.

Like, if you end up getting into like a tongue lashing back and forth thing, it's not you're not changing that person.

Like, I my husband is a debater at the very core, and he's also an Enneagram five, like the two of you, justice.

So he will he will talk somebody's ear off, trying to teach, and he's like, I'm just trying to help them see and change.

And I'm like, okay, but how much more time are you going to invest in them if they're not listening?

I can help them.

Yeah.

I'm like, we're six months into this text thread.

Like, this is a real life thing.

This is a real thing that I deal with, but anyway.

So it's like, I think that's that's the point for me is like, do I have a relationship here?

Are my words gonna even be met with like yeah, like is it gonna actually matter in this moment?

Um, I don't know.

I was listening to something, and it was talking about how our minds start to function with the way that so we start to think about our minds in the way that technology is advancing.

So we used to think of our minds as like the steam engine.

So the the phrases like um the wheels are turning.

We thought of that's how we thought of our our brains working.

Yeah, now we think of as technology advanced technology as processing.

So whenever we talk about that, we talk about processing.

So when we look at the filter of relationships, we look at the filter of well, I have 300 followers, so I must have 300 relationships.

So whenever we are posting something, we're thinking like, well, I can call them out because I have a relationship with them because they're I follow them, they follow me.

But what you're saying is like you have to be close enough, yeah, you know, to be able to even say those things.

So I think we just have to make a switch in our mind from however many people you have following you to who are you talking to on a regular basis.

And I think that's that's one of the hardest things for us to to kind of comprehend because we do think in terms of big media and and a lot of people, yeah.

Yeah, and how many Instagram posts that you read did you look at and like, oh, you know what?

That changed my mind my mind on this thing.

Yeah, right.

Typically, not many.

Yeah, no, but you look for the stuff that supports what you want.

Yeah, exactly.

Then that's the stuff you're like, oh, amen to that.

But yeah, you're but you're you're you're very right.

I think that's kind of when we're when we're looking at it in the sphere of social media, and you know, God knows, like, I'm not trying to like beat up on it.

I think it's a it's a wonderful tool, and it's great for relationships and all that stuff.

So it's not we're not vilifying it, it's amoral.

However, we just see that there's so many things that can be done with it, but when you do look at the the influence of it, like I've I've I've found myself when I've when I've had conversations, I think um, Da Niro, you and I were going somewhere and we were listening to um I think Andy Minio, and it was one that song about friends.

Um and he's like, Well, that's not what friends do.

And one of his lines, and I'll paraphrase it, otherwise, unless Nate, you want to wrap it.

No, I don't know.

Um, but it was something about like telling me that I'm telling me that I'm right when I was wrong, or when I when I was wrong, but you didn't tell me that I was wrong.

Like ordinarily, you would think that people just want someone who's gonna ride their coatels and tell them that you're good at everything.

But he's like, that's not what friends do.

If I'm if I'm wrong, a friend will actually tell me that I'm wrong.

So when we're talking about like this community and relationships, I think it's really important to make sure that you have friendships, not ones that are just gonna say amen and support every decision you make.

But I think true friendship is ones that can actually say to you, hey bro, you know what?

You're you're really you're you're wrong on this.

Yeah, let me let me let me let me show you kind of how this can come across.

Yeah.

I think that's what really is the weight of true friendship.

And and I think that's my challenge for all of us is not to just be people that that come alongside and agree and endorse, but actually can have those proximity conversations that's Says, hey man, this is where I think you're wrong, and this is where I think it really matters.

I don't think social media is always the place to air that stuff out.

Right.

Like I've often would see things posted on social media, and I'm like, who's that for?

Like I can tell, like you're making a statement that sounds like you're addressing an individual.

Well, talk to that individual.

Give him a give them a call.

Who's that for?

And you said the word tool, and now it's making me think of something.

I think the world uses the tool of social media to blast people, to shame people, to call people out.

We can't use that same tool for our friends and expect a re like a response, or like it's like you can't use the same tool that is being you expecting a different result.

Exactly.

Most people are tools.

There is no tool.

I'm sorry.

The clip that we're gonna post on our social media there.

You're welcome.

Um no, but I I think if if for us as a church, like I don't think it social media definitely we can't do it there, um, which is why I love small groups, because small groups change my life.

And small groups, you can build that relationship to have the conversations that are safe.

Yeah.

That you know people aren't like setting a Zoom recorder right in front of.

All right, now we can start a small group.

Like it's not, it's none of that.

Yeah, but if we could be the church that listens to people who love Ben Shapiro, but also be the church that listens to people that love Sean King, and we can have a safe environment.

But the key is not to say, here's where I think you're wrong on these policies, but like, what does this say about your belief and what you're pouring into your ears?

Yeah, because people like, oh, that's my guy.

Well, sure, that can be your guy if this is if this is your guide book first.

And if we filter our guys or our people through this, I feel like a lot of us would be shocked and unfollow people, not cancel them, yeah, but unfollow them, this it would help this.

Yeah, yes, absolutely.

It's a good point, man.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

It's a really good point.

Yeah, um, I kind of want to visit the story a little bit that we talked about with the woman caught in adultery.

And so uh I'm sure that we've all heard different theories posed on this question.

What was Jesus doing when he was writing in the sand?

What's your what's your theory?

What do you think he was writing?

Well, what was the point of that?

I think the the there's there's several layers to it.

What I what I'll tell you is the the most theologically consistent without doing a whole lot of inferring without things that can't be um verified.

Like these are arguments out of the dark.

So what we're gonna we're gonna look at this.

What Jesus, I believe, was showing because he was being confronted with this this dark, sinister situation.

And and here's what we gotta remember like the motive was they wanted to trip him up.

And and it was two sides where they basically thought they had Jesus trapped.

One, because they wanted to see if Jesus was gonna go against the law of Moses, and that would be, oh man, gotcha.

Or two, he was gonna actually go against the Roman rule because technically the Jews didn't have a right to kill anyone, which is why they had to take Jesus to punch his pilot.

So if Jesus were going to go against what Moses says, then we got you there.

Or if you're gonna say, Yeah, go ahead and kill her, then you're actually going against the Roman rule.

So they were trying to trap him.

It's a lose loose.

It's a lose loose.

So Jesus in his brilliance was able to navigate through it all, as the Bible would often say, he slipped right between the crowds, like that's what he was doing.

But here's what I believe we saw with Jesus, because he was confronted with this, and his posture was to turn and to start writing in it.

I think what we're seeing is that we have a we have a God who's willing to get his hands dirty in order to get us out of the messes that we create.

So I think that's the most consistent thing that I've seen in scripture where we look at the nature of God throughout the course of the Bible, and when he's being confronted with, like again, the accuser of the brethren.

That's the that's the enemy, the opposer.

When he's presenting these things before God, it shows that Jesus' response was not to judge, but to get his hands dirty in order to bring reconciliation and restoration to us.

Wow.

Anyone else want to take a stop at that?

I always thought it was a phone number.

Yeah, that was my second thing.

Yes, yeah.

That had also been listing out sins.

Yeah.

But I love that.

I love the fact that it's like, like what you said, I don't think I've ever even heard before.

Um, even though that's kind of maybe, but just that he is willing to get his hands dirty.

Because, you know, for us, and so like that in and of itself, man, that's that's the brilliance of our savior.

Yeah.

Can I ask a question?

Amen.

Sorry, Nate.

Um, so and like you pointed out when we were talking um a little bit before Sunday about how there was that section that this story in some translations of the Bible is not there.

Why, why is that?

Like, I'm I'm just asking Pastor Keith because I feel like I'll let Johnson speak to that because he he's actually the one who is peculiar to me.

Like, why does it say yeah?

So I I I think obviously it's a representation of grace, right?

Jesus doesn't cancel her, she he shows grace.

And I think sometimes when you institute and and show grace towards people that people will try to cancel, people are mind like that's why religion doesn't work because it's a set of rules.

And when grace is shown, it's like, no, no, no, you broke the rules.

Like, you got this, is this is what you deserve.

But I'm like, but Jesus, like, oh, but I'm gonna give you grace, and it just like doesn't make sense to us.

So I think when Jesus shows grace in the story, these religious writers, and I was gonna say transcriptors, that's not a word.

Um transcribers?

Is that transcribes?

Someone help me.

Um when they did and they read the story, they're like, oh, that's not gonna rush.

How are we supposed to teach it on Sunday?

Yeah.

Then people are gonna question all these other things.

Then we have to show grace for an unlimited amount of things that people are gonna screw up.

We can't do that.

Yeah, and so when I'm reading this, um, in my my study Bible, it says Jesus giving license to this girl, like showing grace of to immorality, it blows people away.

Yeah, and so instead of people shouting back at Jesus when he says, If if if if you guys are good, throw a stone.

Instead of them arguing, they go, I don't know, I this doesn't make any sense to me, and they just peace out.

Yeah.

So I think when people try to wrap their head around the magnitude of Jesus' grace for this lady, but also for us, it hurts their mind.

Yeah.

And instead of processing, see what I did?

Instead of processing this, they just go, Ah, I'll just cancel her anyways and leave and go about my day, which is what people do every single day.

Yeah.

Interesting.

It would be cool to know.

I always want to know like the after effects of an encounter with Jesus.

And obviously, we don't have that written down, you know.

But like what happens next.

Yeah, like what did she after the message of these miracles?

Did she listen to him and sin no more or you know, attempt to go down the right road, or did she go abuse that and go, okay, cool, I can go back to my day job, you know, and or my night job, whatever you want to call it.

It's too far.

Sorry.

Um I there it is.

So the the last the last thing I want to I want to talk about, because I think this is really, really important.

Um I want to say something because what you just what you just said was really powerful.

Thank you.

When we're talking about um this this lady and her and her desire to move forward, like it it's almost like the woman at the well, like has this encounter, has this history, Jesus like like has this powerful conversation with her, and we're gonna talk about that in another um episode of After the Message.

But then she goes back and she's like, Hey, you guys gotta come in here with this guy.

He's told me everything that you ever can imagine about my entire life, and she turns into an evangelist.

So we kind of get a chance to see that.

But it did make me think, like, I wonder how the guys that she used to be with responded to this life-changing encounter that she has.

And so we see this, whether we're talking about Paul, or we're talking about other people that have had these encounters with Jesus.

It's not so much their desire to follow what Jesus says, it's the people around them's willingness to accept it.

So I think if we were to kind of use that logic, apply it to what we're talking about now, let's say that the lady really did try, but if she stays stuck with that community that can only see her for what she ever was, it may be very hard for her to thrive in what she's called to be unless she removes herself, unfollows that community, gets connected to a community that's actually going to reinforce and support what God said about her.

Yeah.

Because if she does go back to the guy and he's like, wait, what are you doing?

You're and she's like, I'm done with this, I'm moving on from this, that may have more of an impact.

You know what I mean?

So that's a really good point.

But but kind of along those same lines is she under she understood, or we're uh assuming that she understood what true conviction was.

And if you're a new Christian, you're not a Christian, you've been a Christian for a long time, conviction and condemnation can get muddy if you're not clear on what those things are.

So I think for for the sake of this conversation, what are some things in your lives that you have learned how to decipher those two things?

And how have you learned to live in freedom but not live in anarchy and do whatever you want?

Because it can get muddy if we're not careful.

So, what are some things that you've learned in your own life that have helped you know that I because you were talking about shame, like I don't have to live this way.

There's a there's a different way to do it.

I think the question, and and it was kind of what I was trying to say with the difference between guilt and shame.

It's the same thing between feeling conviction and condemnation.

It's like the conviction is a motivator for change because you realize what I did was wrong, what I did was bad, what it you know, what I did does not line up with the the life and the purpose that God has called for me.

But it motivates you to say, you know, like I need to do better.

But for the condemnation side, I feel like you live in a place of thinking like there's no hope for myself.

Like I'm just I am this way forever.

And and I think that's the difference for me is it's kind of measuring my headspace and those places.

Like, am I just wallowing?

Am I just, you know, like that's not what God has called us to.

So allowing the conviction to be the thing that motivates us to do better and different.

And obviously, we're the goal is not perfection, um, but it is like we should be striving, growing, changing.

Yeah.

Are you seeking after God basically?

Exactly.

Not perfection, but progress.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I and I think that's kind of I you know, I don't know if there's much more we can add to that because I think that that's a brilliant.

I mean, I think we may have some practical examples of it, but like literally what Lindsay just said is I think that like conviction moves us forward, but condemnation and guilt and shame, it it it keeps us, it keeps us from moving forward.

It just and and I I think that's why when we look at the the life of Jesus and and and we and we look at everything that he did on the cross, like literally, like I love that I love the details that that God went through in order to truly redeem mankind, like his redemptive plan.

So when we when we look in at the fall of man and like and it says that they were naked and ashamed, like Jesus undoes all that.

So I know right now when we have like our our images of Jesus on a cross, and we've seen the different renderings, whether it be in television or on different like emblems that we create, like Jesus has on a nice little loincloth.

Truth of the matter is he was stripped naked.

So literally, he he was hung openly naked, he took the shame that Adam and Eve have, so we should never have to walk in shame again.

So literally, not only does he undo sin, he undoes the consequences of it, he even takes shame to the cross so that we never should have to walk in shame again.

So the point is if I have made a mistake and I feel that, that's not from God.

Yeah.

Because Jesus covered that, he paid for that.

Yeah.

So if I'm having a feeling that generates that, or if I'm having someone pushing that upon me, that's not God.

Right.

Who's it coming from?

Yeah.

I'm always a big question of like, if this isn't God, who is it?

Yeah.

It's it's really black and white for me when it comes down to like motivations and feelings.

Like, if this isn't a God thing, then then who is it?

And I think we can fill in the blank on what that might be.

Yeah, for sure.

And that just brings about personal responsibility uh to wrap up the conversation, brings about personal responsibility on us on how we treat the other people.

Are we are we trying to help them see the other side of it, or are we condemning them and casting them out?

Yes.

You know, I think if we put more uh question marks at the end of our sentences instead of exclamation marks, we might have a little bit of a better relationship with the people that we encounter.

So that's great.

Man, thank you guys so much for doing this.

It's been a great conversation and always helps move me forward, and I really appreciate it.

Um, if you guys have any questions about what we talked about today or you just want to say what's up, you can email atm at celebrationorl.org.

That's after the message, atm at celebrationorl.org.

We love you guys, and we'll talk to you next week.

Thank you for joining us for after the message.

To learn more about celebration church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at celebrationorl or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.