After the Message: The Presence of God

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

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Hey folks, welcome to After the Message.

Uh so glad you're joining us today, whether it be in the car, at home, at the gym, which I don't remember what that's like, but uh we'll get there.

Uh if you are stumbling upon this podcast, this is the Celebration Church Orlando podcast, and you are uh tuning into the After the Message segment of this podcast where we simply talk about the previous week's message, sermon, etc., and continue that conversation.

We hope it encourages you to do the same thing in your circles.

Today I'm joined by Lindsay Brenner.

Lindsay, welcome.

Hello, people.

The last time you were on After the Message, you were very pregnant.

I was.

And we were knee-deep into quarantine life because I was at your house recording the podcast.

Yeah.

And your wonderful wife was watching the two-year-old in the back in the backyard.

Playing with acorns.

Acorns, and he still, Miss Jen and her acorns lives on strong in his memory.

What well a lot's transpired, obviously, since then, but I remember us talking about like essential oils.

That's probably what I was talking about hypnobirth.

That's right.

That's right.

It didn't go as quite as planned.

Um there were still a lot of hippie things that occurred, but uh Crunchy as Jen likes to call it.

Crunchy.

That's a good one.

Yeah.

But uh he made it on the other side, so happy and healthy.

That is that is the point.

So yeah, he is here, he's alive, and he is kicking.

And he's six months old now, so that's crazy.

Wow how much time has passed.

It has a lot of time has passed, and so I am I'm actually pretty everybody says I'm so excited.

So what's another word?

I'm enthusiastic about this.

Expectant.

Expectant.

I'm hopeful about this because a couple weeks ago, or actually it was a long time ago, be this series that we're in, uh, the Holy Spirit.

What's it actually called?

God the Spirit.

God the Spirit.

Sorry, Pastor Keith.

Uh you and I were talking about setting how do we set this up, how do we communicate this properly, you know, what what does this look like for our church?

And one thing you said that I thought about since then is I don't know, I don't know how people live their lives without the Holy Spirit because it's so it's such a part of your daily life, right?

Like how you communicate and how you talk to the Holy Spirit, how you talk to God.

Um and so yeah, I'm looking forward to this because I think I think you have great perspective on it and and I and I value that.

So um so let's let's talk about that first of all, like when you started to practice that, I guess, or let's talk about your upbringing a little bit with Holy Spirit and what that looked like.

Well, I was for sure raised in Pentecostal, you know, flags, running laps.

Um, so being actual flags in church.

100%, yeah.

And the Holy Spirit did not it was not a good service if we did not sing at least three unplanned songs and the service did not go over at least 30 minutes.

So um I definitely grew up comfortable with the language, and um it wasn't it was never bizarre because it was spoken about often in the in that circle.

Um, but for me, I feel like the thing that made the Holy Spirit me actually had that moment of tangible relationship was when my dad left.

Um, it was like when my life was in a place of I didn't really know what else to do in that that place of like feeling the gap of not having a dad and not knowing how to navigate my life and the unknown of what's in front of me.

It's almost like that when you don't know where else to turn, because the Holy Spirit was spoken about so often, and it seemed to me like might as well try, like might as well see I don't know.

So I don't know if there was a particular particular moment where I was like, okay, now I'm living in tandem with the Holy Spirit, where I'm leaning into the Holy Spirit.

I don't remember those moments.

I just remember a particular night when it was the natur I I remember that moment when I shifted to my natural response was not to go run to my mom, or my my natural response was not to go talk to my best friend.

I literally had nothing else to do than to lean in to the Holy Spirit, which sounds even saying some of those words are like lean in.

And I understand that there it gets a little bit muddy in there, but I just remember 12-year-old Lindsay in bed feeling this gaping hole of knowing I don't really know who's gonna be that for me.

And I remember hearing the word like you're my beloved, and then I ended up jumping in the Bible and I was reading through and I just found so much so much like it filled the gaps, it filled those that void.

And so I guess experience led me to to not only to seek him out, but then also in future realizing that was the thing I needed more than the reassurance from somebody else, and so it became a pattern of my life where I didn't know how to move forward, especially in the confusion, chaos, uncertainty of life, than to just go to God and let him fill in the gaps and let him fill in the void for me.

Has that how has that I guess evolved over the years as where maybe that particular instance was is it more natural now for you, or is it still one of those things where it's you have to remind yourself, like, man, I need to take this to God?

Or is it more so because you had that experience, it's like, well, yeah, obviously I talked to God about this.

Does that make sense?

Does that question make sense?

I I would say it's more natural.

Um for me, praying has always been one of those things where um I don't ever know, like, I don't I'm not the conversationalist in prayer where I'm like, okay, this is the the moment of time I'm gonna be praying to God.

There are many times I'm quiet in my car, and before I didn't even cognitively think, okay, it's gonna I'm gonna pray about this.

I'm already like in conversation with God about something.

So in those moments, I feel like they have, it has become so natural for me.

It's less discipline, less like, okay, we've got to carve out this time to take this to God.

Um so I feel like in some ways it's natural.

There are areas in my life that as I've gotten older, I realize I've gotten too lenient on myself, like I've relied too much on my strength.

Or because I've done it X, Y, and Z this way and it was successful, then I find myself being reliant on that pattern and forgetting that even though maybe God had led me that way pri previously and it yielded results that were great, it does not mean that I shouldn't be taking that particular thing to God this time.

And so there are there are avenues of it that I feel like are very natural, and then there are some that just over time selfish self-righteousness seek, you know, creeps in or well-intended moments, and I find myself not seeking God the way I would have in the past.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I always have that fear like I don't want to get to, I don't want to get to that point, and so I'm always like, God, please don't ever do anything that you have to get my attention.

You know, don't ever do anything drastic in my life where I have to walk through all this pain.

Because you always hear those stories or you hear that illustration basically, like you got so uh you got so lenient or you know, so comfortable in certain situations that God had to pull you out of it.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So I I'm always like, all right, God, am I still am I still relying on you or not?

You know what I mean?

So and we're gonna shift and things are gonna change, but I feel like that is part of trying to be in step with the Holy Spirit is you're not you're you're at least listening.

So you're not too far away with your ears plugged where he's not giving you the nudge like, hey, it's been a while we've talked about this, or you know.

So I feel like if you are at least with your heart kind of bent towards, okay, God, I I do even the fact that you said I I'm always praying to God, don't let me get to that place, that's evidence of itself that you're open-handed saying, Okay, I'm I'm ready to hear for you to guide and lead me.

And that is in essence being led by the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

And then those scriptures that talk about um, you know, even when we're not sure.

It reminded me when you were saying that you don't even realize it sometimes, and then you go, Oh, well, I'm actually praying right now.

You know what I mean?

You didn't start it out with dear Lord, yeah.

But you're in communion with God, which is basically prayer.

Yeah.

And so maybe that is just more evidence of the Holy Spirit being being present and and being praying on your behalf, I guess.

Yeah.

So um the the theme, that theme kind of ran throughout Pastor Keith's sermon this past week.

Um, which is great to have him back.

Uh he was obviously pumped to be back.

Yes, he was.

You can tell that.

We made bets to see how long would he be on the platform preaching.

And he went over his own estimations.

Wow.

Shocking.

Yeah.

So yeah, it was uh great to have him back.

Although I will say it was cool to hear from a lot of different voices as well.

And I talked to uh Deneira a couple weeks ago when she was on after the message.

I think one thing that stood out to me was these people that are in different cities that they maybe talk every now and then.

I don't know their connection, but they're in different areas of the church, different walks of life, they're in different levels of leadership.

But I felt like when they came here, they were all speaking the same language.

They were all saying the same things, maybe without even talking to one another.

Maybe they were in the behind the scenes, but I don't think they I don't really think they were, because I was helping with some of the like getting them connected in.

And it was like, oh yeah, I'll preach on the Holy Spirit.

But I don't think there was a lot of crossover conversation.

But I I had the same experience thinking, wow, this was they're really supporting one another, but there was also an element where I feel like you got to see everybody's personal relationships with the Holy Spirit, which I think is such a unique thing because the Holy Spirit is who the Holy Spirit is, but because the Holy Spirit is inside of us, there is a uniqueness of the way I I don't know if that makes sense what I'm trying to say, but I I I even saw, like, you know, the way Pastor Chris, the way he shared, it was very evident the way hi his personal relationship is with the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, and that was cool to see so many voices of verses.

Had it worked out as originally planned, it would have been primarily Pastor Keith.

So this was really cool to see a snapshot of everybody's I don't know, personal.

I asked myself this question yesterday, maybe the day before, because I I've heard that growing up and being around church for a while, is how God speaks to people uniquely, in individual, you know what I mean?

Like it's all it's all the same.

Obviously, God's word is the same, it's consistent, but sometimes it speaks to us in different ways, right?

So is it God speaking to us differently or is it the way that we're receiving what God's saying?

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, that's good.

I don't know.

I mean, I've seen examples, even with m in my own marriage, there's something that I maybe passed by in a moment, not even seeing God speaking in that moment, but my husband having a moment, and like God spoke to me through this way, and I'm like, wow, I didn't that's awesome.

And then once he explains it, I see it.

But for me, maybe I would have seen it a different way, or the way God spoke to me through something was completely different.

Um so yeah, is it the the listener or is it him or maybe it's a little bit of both.

I don't know.

I mean he individually made us and wired us.

So I I mean think about a painting.

And think about the the phrase beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right?

Yeah.

So the artist paints it.

It is what it is.

Here's there's the painting, and from a 30,000 foot view, it's the same as it is, it just looks different.

You know what I mean?

And you may see something in the painting that I don't see.

I don't know if we're getting like too artsy with God here, but I'm really good with it.

This is my crunchy.

But even that, like I was thinking from that question, is it the person listening or is it the God speaking differently?

But God even created us individually.

So even if it was the listening side of it, he created us that way to be more receptive in certain ways, to be more visual and maybe more auditory or more, you know.

So even if you want to think through that, like, well, he he knew what he was creating, and so he knows how to speak to us differently because he wired us that way.

So I don't know, chicken before the egg kind of thing.

Yeah.

Is it the way he created us?

And so he knows how to speak.

I don't know.

Let's talk about art for a little bit because I was reading a phenomenal book by uh N.T.

Wright uh called Surprise by Hope.

And he's basically talking about how today we've we've gotten away from maybe what the early church's understanding and uh miss and goal was as far as it pertains to spreading the good news because the kingdom was coming to earth, right?

Like it was gonna be like the resurrect the bodily resurrection of Jesus is gonna ultimately be your reality, okay?

And so, whereas we've kind of moved away from that into this one day we get to escape this terrible world and go to a better place, right?

But in that he had this chapter talking about how the world how things in the world like art, how those can be redem redemptive in nature.

Yeah, you know what I mean, and how how those can share the good news of the kingdom and how those can reflect redemption and God's ultimate desire for his creation.

Yeah.

And I'm trying I I like art, I appreciate it, I have a little bit of that bone in my body, but I was trying to I was trying to understand how that plays out because I'm also very logical too.

From your perspective, what is there anything that art speaks to you or any mediums maybe that speak to you more about God's kingdom or redemption or how that plays a part in it?

That's a really big question.

Yeah, I know.

I could take it a lot of different ways.

Um we got time.

I think my first initial reaction um, obviously, music is gonna be one of my main art forms.

Not obviously, but it always has been.

Um I remember going to sleep to classical music like Bach level, like that was what I listened to at night.

Um obviously I'm now leading worship, but beyond that, not in necessarily Christian or worship songs.

There are many times I find myself in places where the only explanation that this song or these notes or these chords could even be in something that I can hear is evidence of God.

Um obviously art, actual paintings and things like that.

I see see I see paintings and I appreciate them.

I don't personally see like the God stuff in those moments.

I know nature for me is one of those big speakers of God.

Obviously, he created it, but there are times when I am sheerly breathless.

The only explanation is is there is God.

So I don't know if that's kind of the question.

Um well now that you say that, I remember something in the book, he said something along the lines of if words were able to express it, we would have used words for this.

Right.

But the only other way to express this is by what it is.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

The the feeling of looking at whatever landscape you're looking at, or the way that this poem or the way that this painting is, if something else were to be able to express that, it would have done it.

Yeah, does that make sense?

Yeah, and you're right.

Man, that's good.

I've experienced it.

I didn't have the words to put that as eloquently, but yeah, I mean, I definitely have had that experience before where you're like the only explanation is God.

Back to the Holy Spirit, which one and the same, right?

Um Pastor Keith was using the analogy of the Apple Watch.

Yep.

Do you have an Apple watch?

No.

Um Do you have anything Apple?

Do I have anything Apple?

I mean, I'm recording this on a Mac, so that's that's as Apple as I get.

It was a kind of a facetious.

I know.

Okay.

It was a facetious response.

Okay, good.

Um one thing that he's he said a lot, but that he mentioned again in this was uh a lot of times we expect God's results, but we're not doing things God's way.

Is there any areas of your life where you've kind of looked back and gone like, man, no wonder this wasn't working out.

You know what I mean?

Or any scenarios maybe that you can think of that.

I don't know, but that while he was giving uh the metaphor and like really building up the Apple Watch metaphor, I have to be honest, I it was cringe, it was making me kind of cringy.

Like, you cannot be that dependent on something like this is not good.

And then he kind of did the juke of like, you know, if we could be as mildly dependent on God as we are as our devices, I was like, oh, that was good, yeah.

So I think from using that analogy, um, I was actually having a conversation with somebody recently about ministry and being in the ministry, and I it's surprising sometimes thinking that I've been, you know, from a vocational avenue as a career, I guess, in ministry, I've been in it for 13, 14 years.

Like that is insane for me to process.

Um, but what I was talking to them about was there are places in my I guess walk with God in ministry where I've kind of back to what I was saying at the beginning where I've kind of come up with my conclusions.

Like, God walked me through this, this is how you do this, and and and not in a way that I'm almost dismissive of it, but I have for some it takes me being in a conversation with maybe someone who hasn't been doing it as long that says something that hits me in a way that I go, why why haven't I like re-evaluated this moment?

And so I think there's places in I guess in in the world of ministry for me personally where I remember God speaking to me clearly about something or showing me something clearly that I've almost thought that that's the conclusion, period.

Um and God doesn't change, but a lot of times he's showing, you know, he's revealing new parts of himself, layers come down where I'm in a completely different scenario, and so he wants to speak to me about that differently than the time before.

And so I think I was challenged literally yesterday having a conversation with somebody about it, wasn't even thinking anything crazy or deep.

It was just like, oh yeah, why didn't I consider re-asking the Holy Spirit, re-asking God about this thing?

And so maybe not dependent solely on myself, but sort of dependent on um his word from a previous season.

And that for me is maybe just as heartbreaking because it's like, oh, he probably has something new to say to me.

Maybe I should ask.

I don't know.

Yeah.

When when the Holy Spirit speaks to you, are you able to describe what that interaction is like?

Um Is it is it more feeling based?

Is it more light bulb?

Is it more I am a feelings person.

So it is a feeling, but it's not in a feeling where it's like, oh, I'm either it's not like an emotion where it's like happy or I I wouldn't say it's that.

It's just the moment where I can maybe give you an example where there was no other conclusion to why this thought came in my mind or this this feeling that I needed to rush to respond.

There was literally no other conclusion because it wasn't derived on my own.

Like I know it wasn't something, it was something that popped in my head, but it wasn't like it popped into my head as like a light bulb idea.

That's not my interaction with the Holy Spirit.

It's been it's typically feels sort of out of left field, and it sits in a way, it sinks in in a way that I go, that's not my own.

So the only thing I know to do is take it and like sit with it and see what God has to say about it.

Um yeah, because there's been times where my interaction was like, wow, even in my own strength, I wouldn't have drawn that conclusion, or even in my own strength, or even my it's not even the way my brain thinks, or if that makes sense.

And those are those moments where I'm like, I know that was the Holy Spirit.

Yeah.

For someone who's maybe frustrated because they feel like they don't hear from God, or they're they're trying to hear from God, and it's maybe it's falling on deaf ears.

You know what I mean?

Like what would you how would you encourage them and how would you say like how would you say to be attentive to the Holy Spirit?

Because this whole series, that that's all we're trying to do, right?

We're we're just trying to discern that the best as possible.

Yeah.

Um I feel like pressure, taking the pressure off is the first thing.

Um I think if we try to put the venue or the avenue in which the Holy Spirit is gonna speak to us in a box, you're gonna maybe miss it.

But the pressure side of it, I feel like we always hear these things, uh, maybe sometimes just in passing, where maybe I just said, Yeah, I just knew God was telling me this.

And you hear it kind of when someone's retelling it almost as like a of course, God spoke to me, and it feels like, man, maybe it's super easy for them to hear from the Holy Spirit, or maybe and so then you're kind of doing that comparison game of, well, I'm struggling to hear from the Holy Spirit.

I would say it's probably more of um like a muscular, like an atrophy type of thing.

If you're not using that muscle, then it's gonna be harder for you to be as, I guess, agile to hear the Holy Spirit, but to maybe take the pressure off, don't put any like boxes up of saying, okay, well, because Lindsay said this is the way the Holy Spirit speaks to her, that's the way he's gonna speak to me, like we were just saying.

Um, and then as far as like it's it is does feel like a one-size-fits- one size fits all is not the way the Holy Spirit is, but I I don't so it's hard for me to say, well, get alone and X, Y, Z.

But what I I feel like the Holy Spirit is probably already speaking to you, and you're just trying to figure like you're just trying to get to the place of being confident that that is God.

So maybe if it's something that you hear and you think that could be the Holy Spirit, and when I say hear, it's not necessarily audible, right?

But it's something you're you're feeling that uh impression, or I'm trying to think of other words to demystify it.

Yeah, you're feeling that sense, you're feeling like uh that leading or that like okay, maybe I'm feeling like God is telling me to do this.

Well, I would say don't just immediately do this.

Sometimes you just like stop, pause, pray about it, and and be clear.

Like, God, I'm not sure if this is you.

It's okay to say, I'm not sure if this is you.

I want to be sure it's you.

Help me see if this is you speaking to me.

I I feel like he's gonna help you, help you in some way get a little bit more confident that that's him and that's his voice, and that's his leading and guiding.

Um, I don't know.

I wish I could give an XYZ.

Well, before we started recording, you you know, you were you were talking a little bit about um being cooking spaghetti with a baby holding a child and you're another another child running around.

You know what I mean?

Like so I'm sure that your your rhythm is a little bit different than it was how old con how old is Conrad?

Two and a half, three years ago, you know, four years ago.

Have you have you been able to find besides the typical what you hear early morning devotional?

You know what I mean?

I laugh.

Unless that's never been your rhythm.

Well, thankfully, God bless me, with an incredible um mentor, mom, who's been who's ahead of the game like by 20 something years than me.

All of her kids are grown up, and um I thankfully felt uh connected with her before having Conrad.

And something that kind of helped me um, I guess, be more gentle with myself before this chaos season um of two under three years of old age was she said that your relationship with God is gonna have to flex when you're a mom and you don't have time and you're exhausted on the front end and on the back end.

Um, and she basically helped me understand that maybe my my rhythm of seeking God is not gonna be, okay, now I sit down in the morning with my black coffee and I'm you know, it's not gonna be that because you can plan that, but if your kid wakes up an hour early, or maybe that that week they're sick, or you know, there's always a a something that's gonna come up more often than not.

Yeah.

So I where I am now is I have more grace on myself.

And I the way it's like when I can.

And I don't know if that sounds like heretical, but there are times when there's I'm running a mile a minute and I'm not able to in that moment.

And I've I tried, I I have tried.

And I sit down and I can't.

I'm not getting, I'm not having any actual moment where God can speak to me.

But on the drive to work in the morning, this is the first time I'm here in quiet for the whole day.

And so yeah, I can't be like right on my phone reading the Bible or opening up the highlighted pages.

That's not the way it looks right now.

But am I praying?

Am I seeking God?

Am I trying to listen to his word either auto, you know, through a podcast or through the they have now like Bibles that read themselves?

Like there's apps for that, which is incredible.

And to just realize God's gonna speak to us in the midst of those moments too, even though I can't do the same pattern right now.

Yeah.

Um, but the posture is the same.

My goal is the same.

I want to, I want to align myself with God.

I want to hear what he has to say to me.

Yeah, and confident that he knew that I was gonna be in this crazy season, and he still's gonna want to speak to me despite.

Um, but I'm still I'm new to the game.

But she did really help me realize that God's gonna speak different, like he's gonna help in those seasons.

We're gonna bend, we're gonna figure it out.

Just like my marriage is not the same as it was at the beginning.

And there's it's bad, it's not bad, it's not good, it's different.

We we have to be different and intentional in different ways in order to connect than we were in the past because our lifestyle is not allowing for the same amount of like moments of we're sitting across the table eating.

No, heck no, that's not happening anymore.

Like kids are throwing food, and so we're that's not the time we're gonna connect over anything of depth.

So that's okay.

We've got to find space for it elsewhere.

Um, so I don't know if it's the right answer.

And if anybody else has better life hacks, like please let me know.

DM me.

Um yeah.

The uh the interesting thing about that was the word chaos and how how that can manifest some in in some way, you know what I mean?

And um, you know, Pastor Keith was talking about how the Holy Spirit can bring order.

Yeah.

And a lot of times when we think of order, we think of neat little boxes, and that may not necessarily be the order that you're experiencing.

You're experiencing order and peace, you're experiencing order and joy.

You know, d does that make sense?

Like you're not necessarily experiencing order and everything's in a cubby, and my kids are sitting down like exactly listening to Bach.

You know, so um so I thought that was interesting as you're describing what's happening, but then you're also talking about but the posture's still the same, you know, the goal hopefully is still the same, and that's that's the order that the Holy Spirit can bring for you.

Yeah.

Um the Holy Spirit brings strength, and I can attest personally, this is probably the the most resounding thing that God has taught me over the past year and some change, two years now.

Jeez, um, since being full full-time ministry, and even before that, I look back and I go, Oh, that was God strengthening me.

Now I can see that that's what it was.

At the time I just thought like it was just me growing up, but in reality, it's it's it's literally God coming alongside me and giving me strength in areas that I didn't know that I could um handle.

So I guess what I'm saying is I've learned so much about what Pastor Keith was saying when it ri when he referred to Samson, that resonated with me so much.

Like Samson wasn't always just walking around like strong.

I don't know where he got that fact from, so I'm gonna have to fact check Pastor Keith.

But it was an epiphany for me as well.

Yeah, yeah.

It only happens not only, but the majority of the time, it's like what Paul says, like his strength works best in our weakness, you know.

Yeah.

Ever-present help in our time of need is one of the other scriptures he quoted after that point, and I was like, wow, I never in our time of need like he's bringing that strength when when there's the need for it, or like he that's he comes alongside and strengthens.

Um yeah, we're just not all of a sudden like puffed up Christians of like we've got all this strength and we can walk through life.

Um and I think we can look back at our own examples of like those moments.

Oh yeah, that was God coming in, that was God strengthening me.

But I had a similar reaction, like, wow, I don't think I ever saw it that way.

And so yeah, I'm still kind of chewing on it as well.

Um, but I guess if nothing else, the confidence that it can give to anybody listening that maybe feels like I don't have the strength to do this, well, probably you don't, but but God what did he say?

I think Pastor Keith said something like, If if he led you there, he will bring you the strength to do it.

And I and so that's where it it is so important to make sure that we're following the Lord because then you don't have to have the strength.

Right.

You don't need it, like it's fine.

God's gonna bring it, he's gonna sustain you, he's gonna strengthen you.

And I don't know about you, but that makes me feel like I can take a deep breath and exhale because it's not for me to carry, it's not for me to if if he led me there.

Yeah, it's you'll never experience it unless you actually start stepping towards it, you know, and you'll never know, you'll never be able to understand God's strength unless you actually take the proverbial leap of faith, I guess.

It's like Moses with the children of Israel, like get into the get into the Red Sea, like, okay, now what?

You know, like what do you mean?

This is this is it, this is what you brought us to do to stand in front of the water and be slaughtered.

Um, but that's where God revealed his power.

So is there anything else that that kind of stuck out to you?

Anything that you jotted down or the only thing that I I don't even know if there's a discussion attached to it, but the only thing that I that he mentioned that I was like, I never read it that way.

I never um in Psalms 139 where it said um where David is like, where can I go from you know, like where can I go?

There's nowhere I can no height, no depth, no, there's nowhere I can go that can escape me from your presence.

And when he said it, he almost brought it up from like a I'm trying to get away from you.

Like I'm trying to get away from the the presence.

I don't know if did you hear it that way?

I was like, I've never uh heard it in that regard of like he's trying to be like, man, I can't get away from it.

Um I've always heard it the opposite.

Like, in fact, I remember um we did the song on Sunday, King of My Heart.

And when that song first came out, like it wrecked me, particularly in that moment where it said, When the night is holding on to me, God is holding on.

Um, because of that actual scripture in one in Psalm 139 where it says, even in the darkness, you are there.

Like, and that that idea of even in Sheol, even in the depths, in the in in a place where you cannot be found.

That's what people think.

No, you're there.

Um I remember having that epiphany back then when we started singing that song of even in those moments, no, God is still holding on.

Um, so for me personally, Psalm 139 and that song have always been really like a powerful coupling.

Um, and then on Sunday morning we sang it, and then Pastor Keith brought it up, and I was like, Whoa, that's like we didn't plan it, but he brought it up with this almost like kind of negative connotation, like, oh, David's trying to get away from his presence.

But and maybe, maybe there's more insight there, but for me, it's always been yeah, there isn't a place, even when I'm in those places of sheer utter darkness where I can't even see in front of me to let it, you know, there's no way God is in this moment having the confidence of no, he is with me.

He is Emmanuel, he is right beside me.

And even the, you know, Pastor Mike got up and talked about, you know, God being with us through our darkness and our depths and our all his spirit and his presence being with us is nothing like, oh, I'm I'm beside you, I'm right here.

It's like, no, I'm I'm with you, I'm crying with you.

I'm having this moment like like linked in a way that he's feeling what we're feeling.

And so for me, like that was a really cool little thread that kind of went through both the set list, Pastor Keith's sermon, and then even Pastor Mike's like exhortation.

And so I left that day being like, wow, those are those Holy Spirit moments where I feel like he was maybe trying to speak to me through the that reminding me of that um truth of who he is, he is with me.

Um, so yeah, I I I really for me that was good.

And and actually there's um the story of Lazarus, Lazarus, the first time I'd ever really had a an epiphany of what God being with us to that extent was, was in me studying about Lazarus because I was I was I was searching what miracles meant and like what you know the ideas of miracles.

And in that process, I was reading and it said that you know, that's where the the shortest scripture in the Bible is, Jesus wept.

Yep.

And so more more more often than not, people joke about that.

What's your favorite scri scripture?

Oh, Jesus wept.

You know, I've heard that joke so many times growing up in the church.

But that particular thing really wrecked me because I realized Jesus, fully man, fully God.

He's walking to this town, he's walking alongside the friends and family of Lazarus who knows that he's dead.

He knows Lazarus is going to come to life again, but because he's with them and he feels their pain, he cries.

Like, and that was the first time I had had that m understanding in that moment of what God is to me in these moments of he's not just this being that is detached or you know, up in heaven looking down, like feeling sympathy.

No, it's actual empathy, it's like he's feeling the pain I'm feeling.

Um so yeah, I think that was a reminder on Sunday for me.

And it wasn't, I don't think, even the the point or the highlight of the whole scripture, I mean of the whole service, but it was what me personally feeling that God was trying to tell me or remind me about.

So Yeah, it's good.

I thought about that too, the perspective that he had because there have been times in my life where I did I did want to be away from God, like purposefully, you know, like I didn't want to have anything to do with it, and I I wanted to hide, you know, like can you just leave me alone for a little bit?

And you know, as a as a child you're you know, the father doesn't want to do that, right?

You know, like God doesn't want to he'll let you run off, but for me I always knew I just always knew in the back of my mind, like, man, he's still there, you know, like and and at the time it was it was frustrating, but looking back on it, I couldn't be more thankful for it, you know.

So we usually end on a little bit more of a positive note.

It's not negative, I guess, but upbeat, I guess.

But we'll bring back a joke about crunchiness or something, I don't know.

Full circle.

Yeah.

Thanks for coming on.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, look forward to the next one.

Yeah.

Thank you for joining us for after the message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at celebrationorl or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.