After the Message: Deconstructed

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at Celebration OverMealth or visit our link tonight at celebrationoverhealth.org.

What is up, everybody?

Welcome back to a new season of After the Message.

If you are stumbling along this podcast, you are on the Celebration Church Orlando podcast, and this is a segment we like to call After the Message.

I feel like we need to have like a special way that we say that, like after the message.

Yeah.

Like I it's got to have like a reverb.

Yeah, we gotta have a reverb on the end of it.

Yeah, yeah.

Let's do that in post-production.

I'm like looking over like someone's gonna do it, but I'm looking at you, Nate.

So man, yeah.

Like I was saying, you know, after the message, it's it's really simple.

Uh it's uh just a conversation about the previous Sunday sermon.

And um we're picking up in week two of uh a new series called uh deconstructed, and uh we're talking about uh doubt, and we're talking about what happens when faith and doubt intersect.

And uh before we go any further, uh you already heard him, but our lead pastor of Celebration Church of Orlando is joining us this uh this morning.

Well, it's probably it could be whatever time you're listening to this.

Whatever time you may find this.

Pastor Keith Pittman, how are you, my friend?

I am doing well, man.

I am doing very well.

Excited about this series, excited about this season um just of our church of life, you know, in the time of this recording as we're just talking about like a lot of moving parts.

My son's about to graduate, so we're just processing through a lot of those things, man.

So um excited and nervous, grateful all at the same time, man.

Yeah.

The beauty of life, right?

Yeah, it's beautiful.

Man, uh this the series already, you know, we'll touch on a uh the past couple weeks because we usually like to, you know, do it a week at a time, but um, we'll we'll kind of touch on the past two weeks here in this segment.

But so far already, there I I feel like it's it's already been a full series and we'll only in the second week.

And you know, we had our our quip uh night the other night talking about mental health, and uh I I thought that that was uh incredible and so thankful for the guests that came out uh to to speak on that.

Uh and it if you want to, you can you can go on YouTube, our YouTube channel, Celebration Church Orlando, and check that out as well.

So I think it it helped a lot of people and gave us more to think about too, as far as I know it did for me, as far as my own mental health.

Yeah, I I was um I think with with uh anything that we do, you know, there's there's a a process of what we do is for us as well.

So, you know, that's something that I truly believe is that we don't just work in ministry and it's outward focus focus, but it's it's for us as well.

So as I was participating in it, I was like, this is helpful for me.

So I'm hopeful that it's helpful for others.

And so hearing you say that and even hearing some of the feedback, it's encouraging because you just you never know.

Yeah, like, man, this is helpful for me, but is this are you guys getting something out of this?

Yeah, yeah.

I don't want to keep doing this if it's not working, but man, I'm getting a lot out of it.

Well, I went I went home that night, man, and I told Jen, I was like, I do that.

You know, like there's a couple of things I was like, I think I do that.

So anyways, uh how did we get here?

How did how did we get to this series?

Like, you know, we had an incredible uh Resurrection Sunday uh service, and we were so thankful for for everyone that came out and uh glad you know thankful that uh a lot of those people have decided to to continue to to show up and be a part of our church as well.

But but but how did we get to a series uh focused on this topic of deconstruction?

Man, um I think it's been it's been bubbling probably for about a year.

So so what ended up happening is I started noticing more and more people walking away from the faith.

So this is going back, I guess, in like uh the middle of the pandemic.

So again, I go, I'm giving a time reference and people could be listening to this at any point, but like so I guess it was probably like 2020, 2021-ish, early in that season where I began to just recognize that that that season had sparked a crisis in a lot of different ways, but uh for a lot of folks in a faith context and beginning to see how churches were evolving and evolving and a lot of things were coming to light, meaning like um just pain points in the church, mistakes in the church coming to light, and as a result of that, seeing people walk away from the faith.

So I think that's when it really caught my attention.

One, because I'm a practitioner, I'm I'm a pastor, and it's my calling, it's my profession, it's something that that we all do, and seeing people walk away from the faith is obviously something like, man, like we where are we missing it?

Like we, you know, again, like we've we've tasted and seen it, the Lord is good, so what's happening?

So that kind of like sparked this interest.

And so um as I began to kind of like want to study a little bit more about how people can have such strong faith in God and walk away from it, I stumbled across a book called After Doubt.

And um, when I when I read that, I was hooked.

And I I remember um oddly enough, I know I make like if people listen to us, I I make references to like moments where I'll I'll go on vacation, but those are moments that are really, really big downloads for me.

Yeah.

And I remember I was um I was on vacation and I was reading it and I couldn't put it down.

Um and and I like to chill when I'm on vacation.

So I like I'm sitting there and I'm like, I I read through the whole thing in like three days, just like consumed it, and I was like, this is captivating.

And then I got the um the audible book and I listened to it, and then I read it again, and I was like, I feel like there's something in this that one sheds a light as to some of the things that are leading to it, but it doesn't have to be a dead end.

And I think that's the thing that inspired me the most.

So I wanted to try to be real enough to present some of the things that people have walked through that trigger those moments of doubt or deconstruction or whatever we want to call it, but letting them know like one, it's okay, but then two, you don't have to give up because what I think I was seeing is that people were subscribing to if I'm walking through this, then that means I have to abandon everything.

And so to me, this was meant to provide an answer to it's okay to walk through this, just keep walking.

Yeah.

So that's what inspired me probably more than anything, is seeing people and then reading that book and saying this could be a solution that helped people understand it's okay to walk through some things, but just walk through it in a healthy way and and and know that God's with you through it and he'll be with you on the other side of it.

Yeah.

And next week we're actually gonna sit down with the author of the book, Dr.

A.

J.

Swoboda, uh, the author of After Doubt, and and hear from him uh and get his perspective on it.

And I would just go ahead and mark it on your calendar to be ready, get your notifications on when that episode drops, because uh it's gonna be great.

He he's he's a great guy, and he's like you said, the book's timely, right?

And it's full of wisdom and it's captivating and it it's really hard to put down.

And uh after after listening to it myself, which by the way, my first audiobook.

I'm usually a paper paper viewer.

So I I did the I did the audiobook and it was a good experience.

Yeah, yeah.

I think it's one of the ones that you can listen to it and you can internalize it because I think the way that he writes, um, it's so visual that you can kind of like capture what he's saying.

And of course you want to go back and highlight things, but um his is one of the ones that I think you can actually listen to and it's like I feel like I'm I'm getting it, I'm internalizing it.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, I I'm looking forward to to that conversation and I hope everybody is as well.

Um I can't wait to hear it.

I know it's gonna be amazing.

Yep.

Um I will quick rabbit trail.

You mentioned something that I want to talk about.

You you said that usually your vacations can be downloads for you.

Yeah.

Um I I know for me I've had similar experience, but what is it about new environments that can uh that can spark other things in our mind?

Is there anything biblical about like getting out of something in order you know what I'm talking about in order to to hear another side?

I mean, uh just curiosity.

Yeah, I I think um, you know, we're we're creatures of habit.

So we we tend to have routines and and there's muscle memory and reflex, and you're in the same environments, and and even if we try to do different things, like it just sparks almost like this automatic behavior.

So I I know for me, and you know, and I I think that we could look at the model that Jesus creates where he would intentionally kind of get away and and remove himself from his normal surroundings in order for him literally to go and pray, and it was really to model to us getting away, getting a download from God.

So I think that there's a biblical reference to that, but I just think just physiologically, whenever we get out of our norm, we seem to be a lot more aware.

Our our senses seem to be a lot more acute.

Like, you know, think of think for a moment whenever you're like, you ever like notice where like if you're driving somewhere you've never been, like we turn the music down.

Yeah.

Like why?

But it's something about like I need to pay closer attention, as if me listening to this music in any way like affect, but it's something about like I need to be more zeroed in because I'm in an unfamiliar territory.

Right.

Well, I think the same can be said that when we're like in a removed environment that we're not typically in, it's like we we turn the wrong things down so that we could turn up in the right thing.

So I think that's kind of I know that is 1,000% what happens with me.

Yeah.

Um Towards the the beginning of the series, Pastor Keith, you you said that uh you wanted to make it abundantly clear that the answer to all of this is Jesus, right?

The answer to all of our doubts and questions and uh even the the trial of walking through this, uh it it it should be Jesus.

Now that sounds great on a Sunday, and it you know, and it can it can sell, right?

Yeah.

What I think what people would want to know is what does that mean though?

Like what does that look like that Jesus is the answer?

Because I've even been guilty myself of trying to just throw that blanket on top of anything and say, well, yeah, just cover yourself and you know what does that mean to you when you say that?

What are you trying to convey when you say, Yes, but Jesus is the answer?

Yeah.

Well, I think there's a there's a couple of things.

The the primary motivation of it is um I I guess when I'm whenever you're talking about deconstruction, doubt, and any of the other topics we're gonna hit on, you know, people kind of come in with their own slant on it.

So I realize that there'll be people that could potentially be listening uh to this, um, to the series, even listening to our conversation right now, that may be on the other side.

They may have another perspective.

And so what happens a lot of times when you do choose to engage in a perspective that's different than yours, you're often listening so that you can kind of poke holes or whatever.

Oh, they didn't consider this.

So for me, it was almost like a disclaimer saying, like, we're gonna talk about these things, but I'm just being honest with you where my perspective is on it.

So that way there's no way that you would think that I'm gonna look at it the exact same way as a person who's like not a follower of Jesus.

I just want to be up front and saying, Hey, we're gonna talk about this, but understand that I'm talking about it through the lens of hope and not from the lens of despair.

So I just wanted to be honest and transparent with this is how I'm approaching it.

But then practically speaking, um I guess I'm looking at it when I when I make statements like that.

I'm speaking from a place of personal experience.

So my my personal experience has been in seasons where I've walked through droughts and seasons that I've walked through the valley, um Jesus Jesus being the answer means you just don't give up.

Like there's there's something to just just persevering and trusting God.

And and I know that that's not always the most practical and tangible, but it means that most of scripture when we read these passages of these heroes of the faith, they walk through brutal moments that imagine if they didn't keep moving forward.

That Abraham's not Abraham.

Imagine if we didn't keep moving forward that Moses isn't Moses.

It's it's reminding us that I just continue to walk in trust.

And I think in my own life I've I've seen that enough.

So a lot of it I'm just speaking from what I've seen with my mom, what I've seen in my own life of just like, yeah, this is this is brutal.

But I I I trust God and I want to keep trusting him, I'm gonna keep walking.

I'll stumble, but I want to keep moving forward.

So it's really just speaking from a place of not so much like copy and paste saying in Jesus' name it fixes everything.

It just means that I know no other way except to continue to trust him.

Yeah.

And you talked about you talked about that faith uh in the in the first week and and how how can faith and doubt coexist, right?

And and I think what you were were trying to say uh about that was it is possible.

Like it is possible to to believe, but Lord help the parts that I don't believe.

Absolutely.

Um when when do you think that doubt becomes detrimental?

Because I I I think there is a point to where we should be questioning things and and we should be wanting truth, but if we start our questions can turn into doubt if we're not getting the answers that we're wanting, right?

Yep.

So so when do you think that deconstruction or doubt that leads to deconstruction, when do you think that can begin to be d detrimental to us?

Yeah, I think when um there's a couple of things.

One, you know, what what what triggered it?

Mm-hmm.

Let's let's be honest with what's what's triggered the the very reason why I'm I'm going through this moment.

Because I think what a lot of times, if we're not honest with man, I'm walking through this difficult season and I'm willing to ask some very difficult questions, but let's acknowledge at least what triggers it.

Because I think when we're talking about truth, um and and I know that that's that's uh that's like almost a weighty word in and of itself, because everybody has their own truth and live out your own truth.

But but as but as a follower of Christ, I believe that there is the truth.

So so what is ended up happening is as I'm having conversations and I'm processing through things and I see the truth, which I believe is Christ, you can ask questions that are built off of your own personal truth that could then cause you to question the truth of God's word, the validity of who he is, and that can lead us into a place of despair.

So I just want to make sure that I'm not using my experience or my feelings as the only metric of truth.

So I think that it can become detrimental when the answers that I'm looking for reside within my feelings.

I'm trying to resolve something for me personally and exclusively me.

I think that's when it gets a little bit dangerous because now we're beginning to define our own version of truth.

Yeah.

It and it's you know, another thing that is in the book and s things are starting to mash together at this point for me.

So it's probably in the sermon somewhere it's coming, but uh well, you actually mentioned it.

You said, you know, it's easier to change our beliefs and our behavior.

Um and and I I never really had thought about it that way, but but it is so true.

When when things get tricky or when things get hard or they're not going the way that we want them to go, um the world tells us that we can just shift, right?

And and we can uh we we can kind of create our own system uh of the way things work, but unfortunately in God's economy that's that's not necessarily the way it is.

So um w why is there a stigma to doubt?

What why why do we look down upon it?

I mean, you even mentioned uh almost tongue-in-cheek about like, man, Thomas, the only dude in the Bible that's got that nickname, that condescending nickname of doubting Thomas, you know, we don't call Moses murdering Moses.

So why why is that such a a hot button, especially within the church?

I think because um I feel like man in in the church, if I if I can be, you know, just just keep it 100, man, I I feel like there's there's a there's a lot of um there was there's a facade because what we it's faith.

And so when we read scriptures about, you know, having the faith of a mustard seed, and we see these things like, you know, have faith, and those who come to God must believe that he is.

There's these this currency inside of the kingdom is faith, and that's what moves mountains.

So I think that people believe that the opposite of faith is doubt.

And I certainly don't want to uh embrace something that's the opposite of what God is telling me to do.

So you almost begin to diminish it, uh keep it suppressed and vilify it.

But I I think as you look through scripture, you see that people have wrestled with doubt but kept moving forward.

So I think we just have to take the stigma off as if like doubt is a dead end.

There's so many people that have walked through seasons of doubt.

I mean, and and we gave a list of uh some of them in the in the sermon, but you won't find many folks that God called to do some powerful things at some point they didn't ask.

Like, am I the right person for this?

God, are you sure?

Like it's it's a it's a literal part of our human existence to me.

I mean, the sovereign God, creator of the universe, is inviting you to be a part of moving his kingdom forward.

Like I almost think it's arrogant not to doubt.

Like, are you sure you got the right guy?

Yeah.

Like, I mean, it's so for us, I think it's just faith and doubt can coexist as long as we don't look at doubt as the opposite of faith.

I really don't think it is, but I think unfortunately it's such a stigma because we've created this this tension that doesn't need to be there that if you doubt, it's the opposite of faith, and I don't believe that's true.

Yeah.

And within, you know, the church circle, um hopefully that's something that that we're learning from through this season, right?

And and and hopefully it's something that the global church can be more aware of, be more empathetic to and and and start to help actually um bring healing to it as opposed to to throwing stones at it.

But um you know, speaking of the church, you mentioned something uh in in our last uh last week's message about uh church hurt, um, which was it was it was a great message and I I don't know how you d this define uh a a message of of a weighty topic like that is great, but uh or how you walk away from it encouraged, but I was encouraged, you know, and I walked away from it w full of hope.

But you said it's okay if people uh dislike you because of Christ, but it's not okay if people dislike Jesus uh because of you, and and I think that the you is the church, right?

The you is not necessarily um uh the individual.

But what do you you you mentioned that um staying plugged into community is big when you're when you're walking through seasons of doubt like this.

So what do you do if you don't feel loved in the community that that you're connected to?

Like I want to stay connected to the community and I have all these questions.

And me personally, man, like I know people that that's where they've been burned, right?

Yep.

So what what would you say to someone who's like, I want to stick around, but I'm not feeling welcomed.

Yeah.

Man, I think it's almost like um it's almost like anything else where you know, if Megan and I have this saying where it's like, man, you gotta go where you grow.

So and so as pastors, um people come and there's seasons where people feel led to go to different environments.

If you have um, you know, as a let's say for instance, let me just be practical.

So for us, we're a a a young church and and and so we're we're building to be a church that has such rich legacy that we're gonna see infants come in and that will eventually graduate and go to college and still be a part of our church community.

So like the church is growing with our community.

But if you're coming in and you already want this robust uh system that's already been in place, well we haven't lived that yet, so it's not there.

So go to an environment that you can grow in.

It's okay to go where you can grow.

And so I feel like if we are connected to communities that we don't feel loved in, then what do we do in any other instance?

We we typically move on to another community that makes us feel a little bit more welcome and that we that we love.

I think the the the challenge can be um is when we gravitate to things that don't move us forward.

So my my suggestion would be whether it's like you take someone who maybe you're in a toxic work environment and it's just not good for you, well, you don't stop working.

You okay, well, let me find another environment that I can work in and and what are some things that are important to me in this new job that I'm looking for?

What's the what's the culture like?

What's the what's the leadership like?

And then you end up kind of shopping around and then hopefully finding a job that can pay the bills, but actually that you actually enjoy.

I know that that that's it's possible to do that.

And so we end up looking for something that is a little bit more beneficial for us.

So for me, that's ultimately what I would say when it comes to us trying to find community.

It's like, man, if if the community that you're a part of is a part of the problem, um, don't go into isolation, don't connect to communities that are just as hurt and frustrated as you are because it doesn't move you forward.

Um, but then just begin to look around, like where can I go that can help me to move forward?

So I just think we have to do that same diligence that we would do with virtually anything else, man.

It's this grocery store is terrible, so I'm not gonna stop shopping.

I'm gonna go to another one that's gonna give me the service that I want.

Yeah.

That's that's tough for me.

Um and how do you how do you distinguish between because you're you're always move forward, you know, keep moving forward, stick with it, perseverance, right?

We even mentioned at the beginning of the uh the podcast.

But um, how do you know when it's time to go?

Yeah.

You know, how how do you know when uh it's time like the season uh to use the church word, the season is up, you know.

How how do you know that?

Is it case by case?

Like, could you draw on maybe some personal experience to help someone know, like, man, when do when do I

know this is done when when do I know it's time for me to move on when do I know that this is this is hurting me yep so um there's a there's a statement that um another church phrase I'll throw out there is that the grace has lifted.

Um the grace has lifted and so a a lot of that kind of pulls from um the imagery of the Old Testament where it would be the cloud of glory literally you know there was no I think sometimes like even though we have the advantage because we have the Holy Spirit on the inside of us and we we are certainly in a better position but there is a very visual practical side of when you look at scripture of specifically the Old Testament where like there was a cloud yeah that hovered over them and when it was time to go the cloud starts moving and it's like okay we got to move we got to follow the cloud like it's pretty clear.

Yeah but we get this language about it's time to move or the grace has lifted because we're looking at that imagery.

So I think for me um ways that I've been able to identify that the grace has lifted is when it takes more effort to stay.

Like it's just like the that I sense that everything is there's a measure of resistance in every single thing.

So then I have to begin to evaluate like is this evidence that the grace is lifting and and here's the thing very rarely have I seen personally and even in scriptures now God may not always tell us but very rarely does God lead us to nowhere.

So for me whenever there's been moments where the grace is lifting it's been clear that he's leading me somewhere else.

So I think that's been a very big distinction for me with knowing okay is this something that's meant to be developing for my character and I need to persevere through it and through this I'm going to learn something or is the grace lifting because I know that God is leading me to something else.

And so I think it's just taking inventory and seeing man is God leading me to something else?

But if you feel like the grace is lifting or it's time to go, the season's up whatever phrase we want to put out there but it's not leading you anywhere that's when you have to pause and ask the question okay so I so is this something I need to persevere through to develop through it because God's not going to lead you nowhere.

Yeah yeah that makes sense and that's that's great advice.

I mean there's been times in my life where I have thought like man it is it over um for me and whatever the scenario may be but like you said like I I had nowhere to go you know and I didn't feel like there was there was a new destination so I I think that's spot on.

You know this this past week again you know we were we were talking about church hurt and talking about and basically if you're not familiar with the term what what we're just talking about is uh uh being hurt by people uh in the church being hurt by a a a entity a body that is supposed to bring love and healing and and being disappointed and let down by that and I think uh if we're all honest uh we have been disappointed in uh some way shape or form and absolutely um maybe it's because uh a little bit on on our end we've made church and God synonymous um but also there's a there's a real responsibility that uh especially as leaders we need to take in uh and in order to to move forward so one thing you you touched on uh was uh just accountability in the church and and and how I I guess for someone that just is sitting in the seats um maybe they're not super connected to a leader in the church but they see something or or they sense something or something's off what's the biblical way for them to be able to approach that for them to be able to to to come to a person and say hey I have a question about this or I don't this doesn't look right like can anybody do that a and then B how would they go about doing that if they if they see or sense something that seems off to them in a church setting?

Yeah that's a that's a great question.

I think I you know there's a lot of things that are that are really cultural and um and then it's posture the heart so so here's what I mean.

So with any with any church here here's the thing anybody could show up anywhere and have advice or feelings about anything.

Sure.

So I do believe that you know there has to be some measure of like commitment or connection to the community because any otherwise anybody could just show up like hey man I got some things I want to I got some notes for you like it's like like you know so there's got to be And that happens yeah for sure and I I know I'm I know it does.

So it so for me I think that if we have those burdens on our heart that there has to be some measure of like a mutual commitment to the to the to the community so that one it can be heard with the proper posture and then two there's this awareness that we're all just trying to be better.

So I think one not being overly critical um is is a part posture.

Two when it comes to culture um really I I guess it starts with just getting a sense of okay what is the the culture of that particular community which I think is what breeds a lot of the problems so to be quite plain no one no one gets to live without accountability no one only Jesus and even he modeled to us that he was accountable you see me doing things because it's what the I'm only doing what the father should so Jesus models to us that no one gets to just live just like on their own island doing whatever they want to do.

So unfortunately what has happened um in churches you know I don't want to vilify exclusively the church because we are the church and it's we who are part of the church that kind of perpetuate some of this stuff but if I can speak candidly about the local church um it's not always clear well what's accountability look like if if if Keith goes off the rails, what does what does Nate do?

So like I mean and that's that's what we're talking about.

So I think that you know when it comes to like if you're sitting in the seats and you're seeing things that um that you have questions about or things that you just want to get clarity about one you're invested in that community two um you're getting a sense of the culture and then I think honestly at least I can speak for um for us here but this is what I believe is the biblical model scripture says that if you have an issue that you bring it to that person.

And that becomes like a a one-on-one meeting and I've had those I've had people say hey can I sit with you and I got some questions about this and I think that's a very that's a biblical healthy way to do it.

Not hopping on social media not going and telling all your friends and getting group things but but genuinely saying like hey here's some questions that I have and let us reason together.

And we may have some things that um we may differ on there's aspects of our theology that are connected to culture there's things called Christian liberties.

There's a lot of things that um that you can get into and then you can just determine yeah I want to be a part of a community that does that or I don't.

It doesn't have to be this contentious warfare thing.

Now if you bring up something that's that's biblical and a person is resistant or they won't hear it, then the Bible says that you bring a witness and now I bring somebody else into that conversation.

So now I I just want to make sure that we're talking about this in a biblical way.

I want to make sure that our feelings get aren't getting caught up so I've brought somebody with me or what is our process of bringing someone else into this conversation then after that that's when I believe that it's healthy to agree to go separate ways or or whatever that can look like.

So just being quite candid if someone is seeing something I'm in our church that they just it it grieves them.

Not like a preference oh I wish they would sing more of these songs than that song.

Like okay yeah we all have that but if there's like things that you are doctrinally wrestling with I believe that the next step is to connect with you, Nate, or come and talk to me.

We have a meeting, we discuss it, and then if we don't come to a common ground, you can either come to a consensus of okay let me bring someone else into the conversation so I can get more wisdom on it or maybe this is the environment that I'm not supposed to be in anymore.

But I don't think that disagreement has to be messy and and and spilled out that causes a lot of confusion and pain.

I think that's the part that I would love to see a lot less of but yes I do have accountability.

So let's say like let's say like it's I'm the problem.

Yeah.

Let's say like I've just gone off the rails and I'm I'm an absolute nut.

Yes I do have accountability.

Pastor Tim Timberlake specifically as we're speaking about this that's my uh accountability we have an executive team yeah um that's my accountability we have an executive pastor so there are other I guess we would define as elders in our church that if things um were problematic if I was the problem our staff knows but I want our congregation to know as well that I'm not just this independent guy who's sitting on the throne and like you know you guys are oppressed and I'm looking at your text messages and emails and stuff like that.

Yes I so I just want to make sure I clarify it like it's not like hey if I don't agree with your issue then sorry you can just leave the church.

It's no there are other avenues that we can explore as well.

It doesn't rise and fall with just me.

Yeah and and part of that is is being able to admit like man you know what I was wrong or we were wrong and it's something that historically I don't know if the church has been super comfortable with doing uh like admitting wrong um but uh in the book uh after doubt uh Dr.

Swoboda says part of being a Christian is being wrong.

Yes.

You know, be because he even he even says and I I think we're gonna get to it touch on it next week but um you know somebody that he looked up to said that 80% of my the I have to be okay with the fact that 80% of my theology is probably wrong.

And this was coming from a biblical scholar you know so how how do we how do we change that Pastor Keith?

Like what how can we health in a healthy manner and in a way where we can still have a trusting relationship um with one another, with other churches with congregations um be able to to say like hey guys we were wrong on this or whatever the case may be like like what do you see what's your hope for that in in in the church moving forward?

I think um I think listening to people I I f I feel like that's the that's the biggest the biggest burden is um we're not willing to to listen and and which is why I think deconstruction in and of itself doesn't have to be this bad thing.

I think there's moments where we have to evaluate is is this working is it is it meeting its intended purpose and so you can have scholars that will um examine scripture and and say okay this is uh prescriptive or this is descriptive and and those are two completely different concepts um with with properly um just uh understanding God's intent with his word is this prescribing what we should do or is this a description of what was done and and and if we aren't willing to examine that and not feel as if we have the answers on all of that I think that we're gonna miss the boat because what can happen is and what we've seen just through history um things that were describing what happened people took that as an interpretation of God was okay with it.

So when you see um passages that are addressing oppression, slavery, bondage, things like that, people are like well hey you know slavery's in the Bible.

Well no that's a description of what was happening but that's not God prescribing He's not endorsing slavery.

I'm not endorsing that that's not what so I think a lot of times as cultures have evolved and as we've recognized times have moved forward we haven't done a good job at making the distinction between description and prescription and as we start to recognize that some things are descriptions and not prescriptions just owning it.

Like hey I thought that this was a I thought this was a prescription but it was actually a description and we thought it was that so we missed the mark on that but God is still God Jesus is still Lord we're gonna keep moving forward I think we just have to be willing to do that.

So I think the way that we do that is just just coming to grips with our own mortality.

Yeah.

I think unfortunately man we can we could sometimes feel like we got it all figured out that somehow missing the mark means that we've missed the mark on Jesus in and of himself and so it's okay.

Again two things can be true at the same time Jesus can be Lord and I also could have missed understanding aspects of what he's trying to teach.

Yeah those two things can be true at the same time and I think that's part of the human journey but here's what I'll say when you when you do like um a chronological study of the writings of Paul so of course when you read the the New Testament and you get to Paul's writings there it's not displayed in the New Testament in the order that he wrote them.

But if you if you read them in order you actually see Paul's theology evolve and strengthen as he's addressing the same topics because ultimately what you'll find with Paul, Paul is powerful but redundant.

He's basically talking about the same thing in all the different books in different ways and taking the same principle and drilling down on whatever that specific problem is.

But as you watch his writings progress you see that he becomes a lot more clear there's things that he begins to um articulate better.

So when people say like oh the Bible is filled with contradictions, it's not that it's what it is is that people's perspective is becoming clearer as they're maturing in their faith.

Yeah.

It's being sanctified almost in real time and and you're watching that happen.

But it's still canon and it's still scripture and it's still uh what we would refer to as God's word and it's and it's meant to to build us up and uh use for teaching and uh edifying and all that good stuff.

So um that's amazing that God works through our humanity in that way, you know and and even someone someone like Paul who is a pillar of the faith and a hero in in New Testament um that that's just so cool to to realize that someone walking through this right now, someone walking through doubt someone about to give up maybe even someone who just has so many questions and very little if any answers um w what are you saying to them?

Like how how are you encouraging them?

Maybe they're not even plugged into a church but somehow they got to the podcast you know what I mean like what's their next step well you know I think there's a reason why um so much of the faith journey is built on remembrance.

And and I I feel like um you know of course we have passages like hey forgetting those things which are behind but the context of that is like mistakes, suffering, all that type of stuff but there's a reason why as as we look at the the progression of God depositing like these faith pillars into um the Jewish community that then gets carried on into uh the Christian community or the followers of Christ.

And and what you see is that there is constantly this idea of remembering hey we're about to like you guys are in bondage right now and we're we're about to we're about to leave here but remember this write this down because there's going to come a time in your life where you're gonna be sitting with your family and they may not have context of some of these things that we're doing or what we're going through right now.

But then you refer back to hey but remember that time God with a mighty hand delivered us out of bondage and so now people who may not have experienced it can be a part of the story which is why um when you listen to um Jewish believers they never look at what God has done as look at what God did for them.

They always say look at what God has done for us they conclude themselves as a part of the story.

So when people are walking through doubt I think that we live such uh fragmented um lives where we compartmentalize so many different things that we we forget where we've seen God show up.

We forget the faithfulness of God and so we end up kind of like like everything is in the moment instead of looking at the history of look at what God has brought me through.

Right.

Look at how the faithfulness of God has delivered me in so many different things and so that same God that did that then is the same God that's with me now and that today's burden will be tomorrow's testimony is as long as I keep walking through it.

So my encouragement is yes forget the the the areas of shame and condemnation that the enemy wants to place on our shoulders but what are the what are the things that you've seen God come through begin to think on those things.

Whatever things are just whatever things are true think on those things and allow that to be something that you anchor yourself in as opposed to what's happening right now is the end all be all because it doesn't have to be as long as we keep moving forward.

Yeah.

You mentioned that you're you're hopeful and you're even expectant for a a revival or a resurgence of uh belief and a resurgence of you know Christianity and following Jesus uh you you're expecting that what what gives you that hope?

What do you maybe what do you see you know in five to ten years in the church or what whatever the timeline may be like um what what's your hope for that and and how do you see that playing out if you if you could yeah what I what I'm seeing now is and and who knows man I I don't know if I would reduce it down to the the pandemic as being one of the the catalysts for it but I think that at least in my context it did play a part where um I'm seeing more churches that are being unified together than I personally have seen in times past.

I've been walking with God for over two decades now.

So it's I've I've I've lived in different cities, different states I've seen different versions of it and I believe that the day of building a brand is over.

I honestly don't think that people are even looking for that anymore.

Now every community is unique and so people are going to attend and be a part of the church that is good for them and their family.

Again, go where you grow.

But what I'm seeing now more than ever is I'm seeing more um communities like faith-based communities, I'm seeing more pastors and churches partner together, working together um than I've ever seen and I believe that is the heart of God in all of this stuff is that we're all connected.

We're all in this together and so our names may simply just be the spotlight that allows a person to know like oh that's the name of that community but it shouldn't be something that's meant to be a barrier of division that we are us and they are them and we're not connected.

So what I'm sensing now is we're gonna continue to see more and more churches um link arms again kind of use these Christian terms walk alongside each other but I think we're gonna see a lot more churches partnering together.

I mean we've been the beneficiaries of churches allowing us to use their facility like those days of this is our people and we can't commingle I think that those things are going away where it's actually okay for us to all be in this together that's what gives me hope is I'm seeing a lot more of that and I'm seeing even people who have gone through the deconstruction those who come out of it they're looking for that they're look they're not looking to um they're not looking for the brand anymore they're looking for true community and life change and I believe that's what we're seeing happen.

Yeah I mean even we sit right now in a Baptist church recording this podcast you know as as a different denomination and that's we're just leading the way that's beautiful man we we are we're doing our best right um before we before we sign off anything anything else you know from the past couple weeks or anything you you want to uh you want to drop for for coming up or I just always like to ask you before I before I hit stop on the record button.

Yeah um you know I'm my hope is because I realize that this podcast is um it's its own thing but my hope is that that people are are leaning in for for this series like it's it's weighty and and you know and I and I've I've wrestled with like man we we celebrate the goodness of God it's it's a part of the pillar of of who we are as a church.

But I don't necessarily believe that having discussions that are very weighty and meaningful in any way um is contrary to that because I think God is good in spite of that.

So um my biggest encouragement is that as people are are are leaning in and listening to these varying topics, we're gonna talk about suffering, we're gonna talk about unmet expectation, we're gonna talk about disappointment, um we're gonna talk about all that but then the series is going to end on yes these are things that lead to deconstruction but the last message in the series is going to be reconstruction.

How do I reassemble the thing that I I walked away from and so my hope is that in this measure of time that people can be on this entire journey with us.

And hopefully in all of it it'll it'll allow them to ask the questions they need to be asking um seek God where they need to seek God but ultimately reassemble something that's going to allow them to be stronger and and filled with more joy than ever.

So that's my my biggest takeaway is just like just let's just see this thing to the end.

And I'm not saying that this series in and of itself will be the uh the apex of someone's journey but I do think it can be a piece of the puzzle that's helping them um as we walk through these very different difficult times.

And so man it's it's it's beautiful it's weighty but I think that's what the gospel is.

Yeah.

And another piece to that puzzle is going to be next week's episode with Dr.

AJ Swoboda the author of After Doubt so make sure you guys stick around for that.

Patricky thanks so much for coming on always love talking to you and uh look forward to continuing on in this series.

Absolutely go we do thank you for joining us for the message to learn more about celebration church here in Orlando you can follow us on social media under the handle at celebration over mill or visit our website at celebration or