After the Message: Equip Q&A Part II

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at Celebration ORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.

Welcome to part two of our equip session here, a special edition of After the Message that we have coined after the series.

So um part two.

And no, we didn't film this in the same day.

We just happened to wear the same clothes the following week.

Yeah.

I mean I I love this shirt so much that I was like, man, you know what?

Let's run it back on the exact same day we're doing the recording.

Of course.

Yeah.

Because that's how these things work.

Yeah, for sure.

Always.

All right.

Let's get right into it.

Um we are answering questions submitted to us um from our congregation after our our deconstructed series here.

And uh we just wanted to provide an open door for people to be able to ask uh whatever they got uh need answers to and do our best to answer those.

So um we kind of finished part one talking about salvation and what it what happens uh when you die.

And and uh similar question was was asked.

Uh they said a close friend of mine passed away a few years ago, and I remember walking through some doubt amongst other emotions, knowing they had a relationship with God, brought life to so many others, and they were in their 30s.

I began to question why.

Yeah.

I know this is a deep question, but I I want to know how to walk through this well.

Any scripture or words to help process the thought of why?

Yeah, I think um, you know, we we talk a little bit in the series about disappointment.

Yeah, and and I really think that disappointment, that message and the message on suffering probably would be good references from a scriptural standpoint, because I think that you know we we wrapped it around like varying nuances and experiences that people had and and provided biblical context.

What what I want to try to do is is is speak from my my heart on on this.

Um you know, suffering is terrible.

And and and I think that when whenever I have seen it, I I think the first taste that I had with like uh why when it didn't make sense, not my first taste with with death, because you know, I lost like my grandfather when I was fairly young, but I had lost uh a friend of mine.

I was probably like 10 or 11 years old.

And it was the first time that someone who was like that young had died, and I'm trying to wrap my my my little mind around it, and I'm like, what is what is going on?

Like like why does this why did this happen?

And and and and it didn't make sense.

He wasn't sick, it it was it was like an accidental like uh death, and so it just it didn't it didn't make any sense, and so I think that's when I began to grapple with like that life brings pain sometimes, and sometimes it's hard to find the why.

And as I matured and had unfortunately seen so many other things happen, I I realized that um is there truly uh an answer to why that will satisfy?

Um because no matter how much you dig, there will be another why.

Um, and and I've I've endeavored theologically, relationally, sociologically, on trying to pursue why.

And and the truth of the matter is nothing satisfies because whatever answer that's there, you will more than likely say, Well, no, we could have done it this way.

Like it just it's almost like an endless pursuit, nonetheless, it's still our our default, um, it's like our original settings.

So, so I think what when I look at this from a biblical standpoint and understanding that without sounding like overly like indifferent, we live in a fallen and broken world, and and what has helped me through the years is coming back to when when God's word says in Isaiah, my ways are not your ways, my thoughts are not your thoughts.

And and and I pause at that and I ponder that and I process that because there are many times that I say to myself, like, God, like I feel like if you man, if you just give me a run for 30 minutes, I could give you a lot of different ways that you can execute some of these things, and it wouldn't, it wouldn't come down to this.

But I have to remind myself that I'm not God and I I don't know what I don't know.

So, so for me, I think the best encouragement that I can provide for anyone that is wrestling with these things that that that's causes us to wrestle with our own mortality and trying to understand um why do these things happen, it's it's it's understanding this, that that scripture tells us that our life is a vapor, that it's that it's here, um, and that our responsibility is to try to steward our lives in such a way that that we have maximum impact while we're here and that we leave a legacy when we go that points people to Christ.

And and while that doesn't satisfy why, it certainly does give a purpose to the time that we do have.

And so that's what's helped me through a lot of this is not rushing through the pain, but understanding that nothing is wasted when God gets involved, and even looking at the life of Jesus and when he was in the garden and he prayed and cried and shed blood and saying, like, man, if there's another way for this cup to pass by me, I would love to not go through this, and that if even Jesus um couldn't sidestep suffering, then I imagine that we won't as well.

And so for me, it's more so not why am I suffering, but God, what are you trying to do through it and in it?

And I just want to be in alignment with what the outcome and just looking forward to when all things are going to be set right.

Yeah.

Kind of to to uh put a close on on this portion of it, um, d dealing with you know, heaven and and death and and and disappointment, someone asks if you're saved but you continue to live your life of sin as you always have, uh untransformed, is there no consequence?

Will you get into heaven?

Man, um, you know, I I've I've tried to get out of the business of determining who's saved, who's not, who gets into heaven and and who doesn't.

But but looking to scripture, there's a couple of things that that God gives us as a guideline to help us um to encourage ourselves, but also as a part of our accountability to challenge ourselves and the people that are in our community.

Here, here's a couple of things that I'll say.

Um, first and foremost, salvation isn't the prayer that we pray at the end of our service.

That that salvation in and of itself isn't even necessarily the raised hand at the end of the service.

That's an expression of a deeper work that God is doing internally.

So to be very clear, um, that may be the first step, but but what salvation is, and when you really understand what faith is, belief is, and understanding what those words mean, um, it's it's a it's a belief that has behavior attached to it.

So it's a it's a belief that that radically changes me in such a way that there then becomes evidence or fruit of it.

So while I'm not working to prove my faith, if I have faith, you should see it in my work.

And that's when scripture says, by their fruit you shall know them.

So what I would venture to say that there's a difference between a person who who is struggling with sin and a person who was fully surrendered and living a life of sin.

Those are two completely different things.

And so there is grace for our humanity, there is grace for our shortcomings, but being human and being carnal are two completely different things.

Um, being human, we all fall short of the glory of God.

Bible makes that very clear.

None of us are perfect, no, not one.

Paul says, My righteousness is as a filthy rag.

Paul even goes on to say, Man, I am the greatest of all sinners.

This is after he's been walking with God for years.

So Paul had enough awareness to know that, bro, I'm not perfect.

So I I don't want to even give you guys the impression.

So that's Paul, but at the same time, there's still that that burden and that responsibility that each of us has to make sure that we're stewarding our lives where the evidence of Christ can be found in it.

You and I and our staff were talking earlier uh about this passage that I'll read to us um that that quite honestly terrifies me, not in a uncomfortable like fear, but it's it's terrifying and and and I'll read it.

Here's what it says in the first time.

No, it's straight up uncomfortable.

It's Matthew 7.

Watch this.

It says Matthew 7, 21, it says, Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Verse 22 On that day, meaning the day that you're standing before God, we're talking about what happens when you die that day.

Um, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, do miracles in your name, then I will announce, I never knew you.

Depart from me, you workers of iniquity.

So this this is this takes us a step further.

This is not just a person who claims to be saved.

This is even referring to people who claim to be operating and doing things in the name of God, and they, if they're not doing the work of God and truly having a submitted and surrendered heart, will stand before Jesus and he will say, I never knew you.

There's nothing more terrifying than standing before God and hearing him say, I never knew you.

So back to the original question if a person is saved, but they're not living a life that shows evidence of it, I would probably go back and ask myself, did they truly surrender their life to Christ?

Right.

Because what salvation is, is salvation is coupled with behavior and surrender.

Um, it is very difficult to say that I am saved, but I don't live a surrendered life in the same way.

It is very difficult for me to say that I'm married to my wife, but I completely live unfaithful.

Like at some point, my commitment to her should have behavior that supports it.

I'm not a perfect husband, I make mistakes, but my behavior should support my belief, and it's it's almost virtually indistinguishable as it relates to us being followers of Christ.

So God's expectation is as you surrender to me, I need to see evidence of what that looks like in your life.

Yeah.

Um the next few questions are very pointed uh in nature, and you can you can tell um that people are cutting right to the chase and and just wanting some some clarity on this.

However, they are not uh cutting dry, right?

Um and we could probably spend uh entire podcasts just on on one of them.

But um the first one being uh how does God view divorce?

What what does God think about uh divorce?

Um it's a direct question.

I'll provide a biblically direct answer and then we'll we'll dig into it a little bit further.

Um God hates divorce.

Um He He hates it, he He hates it the same way that He hates sin because He hates what it does to us.

Um He He hates to see Um The brokenness, the the the suffering and the division that comes as a result of divorce when when God had given us the gift of marriage Um through Adam and Eve, and then we subsequently see it kind of Um expressed through through all of us.

What Paul tells us is that that was meant to be an example of what his relationship is with his bride.

And this is not new in just the New Testament church context, like God had referred to Israel as his bride, God had consistently referred to his relationship with his people as almost like this relationship with a husband and a wife, the two shall become one.

So when we look back at um Adam and Eve and recognize that their life and their marriage was meant to be a representation of what marriage is supposed to look like because it mirrors um our relationship with God, meaning that even as Eve came from the rib, we come from God and yet we are by his side, he allows us to rule and reign with him all the beautiful imagery of it.

Um and knowing that God uses that to say, this is an example of my love for my people, he hates the idea of seeing that fractured and the damage that it does to it.

So, so yes, God does not like divorce at all.

And and to to take it a step further, this is why whenever you're talking about marriage, it's not something that should be entered into um haphazardly.

It's not something that's entered into because it's a trendy thing to do and it looks great on Instagram and all that stuff.

Like that's why we firmly believe in getting biblical guidance and premarital guidance before you get married, making sure that we can vet and process through a lot of the superficial things and making sure that we're entering to this covenant, approaching it the way that God would intend us to, so that we can actually survive and thrive and be kingdom representatives in society.

With that being said, um sometimes divorce is necessary.

Scripture even speaks about divorce and instances of infidelity.

Scripture speaks about uh moments of separation as a result of neglect and abuse.

And so uh I'll say this um though God hates divorce, I do understand that there are people who experience um so much trauma inside of the context of their marriage.

And so, what I'll tell you is that God's grace is sufficient, that God's grace not only gives you the grace to move on, but he also gives you the grace to be restored and also give you the grace um to establish a a new rhythm in your life.

And so um, no, God is not a person who loves divorce, um, but there is redemptive qualities and the grace of God, um, I haven't found boundaries for it yet.

So you can move forward.

So um I hope that answers the question for people who ask it.

It's just let's make sure we enter into marriage with the covenant mindset, knowing that God intends for us to stay together as kingdom representatives.

Um, but if you're in an environment where you're being abused, it's suffering, um, all those things that you're not bound by that, that God gives you the grace to move on.

But let's just make sure we do it with a kingdom mindset.

Yeah.

And I'm thankful that you mentioned the um sometimes uh the unfortunate need for it because that is something that uh I hear a lot of.

And even um somebody asked a question of how to how to heal from past sexual abuse or trauma uh in order to walk into the future relationships.

Um kind of that grace that you were talking about, you know, I don't know for certain, but perhaps this did happen uh in in the context of marriage, and and maybe not, but um nevertheless, uh how to how do you heal from past sexual abuse or trauma and be able to walk in future relationships?

Um so so this this becomes one of those things where I can give you a pastoral biblical response, but I think that there are other things that can support what what I'm about to say.

So um first and foremost, where I see people who struggle, who experience trauma, a lot of times they wrestle with forgiving themselves.

And and and that lack of forgiveness can come because maybe they feel like they put themselves in that position.

Maybe that lack of forgiveness can become because they stayed in it longer than they should have.

There's there's a lot of different things.

It should just all come in a lot of different things.

Um, so so I think the first thing is learning to forgive yourself.

Now, again, for me, the Bible is the standard.

Jesus is our standard.

So I am a firm believer that that reading the word of God, the renewing of our mind, allowing the the power of God to transform us from the inside out is something that's the um it's almost like the unfair advantage.

It's like the thing that it's sometimes hard to quantify, but nonetheless it can't be it can't be um ignored.

So I do believe in engaging God's word and allowing his word to wash over us and to to bring us restoration and redemptive and getting us the mind of God around that.

So with that being said, learning how to be restored and forgive ourselves, I think the next thing, man, is honestly getting counseling.

And and and I would I'm a big fan of Christian counseling, not to say that other counselors aren't effective and efficient, but obviously with a kingdom lens, it it helps to keep God in the forefront and showing that that God is just as interested in our mental health as He is and our spiritual development as well.

So I would say that anyone who's dealing with past trauma of any sort, but even those of sexual trauma and any of those things, get Christian counseling.

Allow someone who's um an expert of that subject matter to give you the practical wisdom but infuse it with the presence of God as well.

Um and then I also think just um community.

That's something that um I think is really powerful.

Um being surrounded by like-minded people that can come alongside you and support you are also vital components as well.

Because I think whenever we're isolated, we feel that we're on an island on our own.

We can just allow our thoughts to get the best of us.

So having people that are aware, that can that can cheer us on, that can walk alongside of us are some of the things that I believe that can provide us with encouragement, support, and stability.

Um, and then just just prayer.

Like I know that sounds again, these are spiritual things, but we're a church and and I'm a pastor, so that's I'm gonna refer to those things, but but the power of prayer and coming to church and worshiping, just seeing how God lifts burdens, like those things really do happen.

So I would say all of the above would probably help with bringing restoration and healing of trauma.

Yeah, and you're always a uh a big proponent of um you know taking the next step, right?

You're you're always you're speaking about moving forward, and I think uh for something like this, it it is important to um to try and remember that that taking that next step could could probably be difficult, but as long as we're we're doing our best to to bring God into the situation, like you mentioned through prayer, um that that's that's definitely going to be beneficial for us.

Uh and I think uh we did uh a pretty good job at addressing some of this stuff too, uh, and our our mental health equip panel that we had.

So um if you want to go back and listen to that on this podcast or it's on our YouTube channel as well.

This it was kind of within the same season of this deconstructed series that we had some great experts and individuals who provided additional resources for us and uh even Hope sent out an email to those uh who attended.

Um so if you're interested in that email, reach out to us and let us know as well.

So good job, Nate.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah, man, good way to plug the other stuff, man.

Well done.

Um next question for you, Pastor Keith.

Uh how does God or uh how does God view homosexuality?

Are they saved?

Uh so that's the that's the big one.

That's the big one.

That's the big one.

And um, you know, let's let's let's just cut straight to the chase because what we realize is that all of us have probably at some point watched a a pastor sit and have one of these questions posed to them.

Yeah.

And um and you have the two camps, the one who's super, super Christian and saying you better say this, or you're watering down the gospel, or the people um who may be a part of the LGBTQ community, and if you say anything other than complete affirmation, then you're hateful.

And so I realize that it's a it's a question that that's nuanced, that's that's very difficult, but nonetheless, I will provide a biblical answer and hopefully a pastoral response.

So um looking at scripture, and that's gonna be our standard.

The word of God is our standard, Jesus is our standard.

Looking at scripture, um the way that the Bible defines and breaks down homosexuality, it breaks it down as sin.

Um, and this is from Old Testament to New Testament.

This is pre-law, this is during the law, this is the emergence of even when Christ is on the scene as he addresses sexual immorality.

Paul spends great lengths talking about um homosexuality through the lens of it being um a sin.

Now, a lot of times what gives birth to these questions is um people who have experienced the the judgment, the the tearing down, the not feeling welcome, all those things that come alongside of it.

So I want to speak to that.

That is not God.

That that is that is so far from the character and nature of God because even as we say that the Bible is our standard, um, Jesus is our standard.

And I say that not to be redundant, but to make distinction.

The Bible is our standard, Jesus is our standard, Jesus is grace, Jesus is the one um that shows us how we are supposed to treat people um no matter where they are.

Yeah, and so unfortunately, for for people um who've experienced abuse at the hands of the church as a result of what scripture says about homosexuality, that behavior is sinful as well.

Um the way that we condemn and tear down and tell people that they're going to hell, that's that's sinful behavior as well.

And so we all need the grace of God um as it relates to this subject.

So so let's dig uh a little bit deeper.

I have over the the past couple of weeks spent a lot of time thinking and and praying in in at great lengths, and I'm in the beginning stages of this, of processing more and more and trying to understand more and more uh about this subject.

Not in an effort to change what God's word says about it, but to understand the nuances that are connected to it.

And here and here's why I say that.

As I began to read different blogs and literature about LGBTQ community, I realized that it's not as black and white as a lot of times we want to make it seem.

I I've learned things that ranged from sociological things, chemicals in the brain.

There's a lot of other variables that contribute to this as well.

So it's easy to kind of classify people in one bucket or another and then project judgment versus another, but it's far more nuanced.

And so as I'm learning more about this subject, I'll say, I'll say this: that that God's grace is available.

And in the same way that God's grace is available to all of us who fall short of the glory of God, I believe that God's grace is available for our people of the LGBTQ community as well.

I want to be very clear as it relates to celebration, Orlando, that we want you to be a part of our church.

We want you to show up.

We want you to be there.

We want you to know that you are welcome at our church because I believe that is what we see with Jesus being our standard, that he was amongst all people welcoming them and presenting the gospel to them and allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work in them.

So to get back to the bare bones of the question, um, how does God view it or what does scripture say about it?

It defines it as sin.

But is that the silver bullet that the blood of Jesus doesn't cover?

I don't believe that to be the case.

I believe that as long as we can do a better job at helping people to feel loved and welcomed and allowing the grace of God and the power of God's word to do the transformative work, there's far too many testimonies and stories of life change and transformation and powerful things taking place when we respond with love.

And I think that our responsibility is to recognize the truth of God's word, but make sure we're delivering it with love.

And if we're not delivering it with love, then we're just as accountable as the people that we seem to condemn.

So, man, I I my heart breaks for the people in our community that have experienced hatred and bigotry and just wanting to fight for basic rights to exist.

That's not God.

That's not God's will for any of us.

Um, and so my desire and my hope is that we can begin to respond in love and allow the transformative work of Jesus to do the work that we and our hatred will never change.

Yeah, for sure.

Last question for you, my friend.

Um, someone wants to know what does the church do with the money given?

Beautifully powerful question, which you can probably help to answer this as well as a person who helps to oversee our finances.

So, so let me let me break it down and then if you want to provide some context, I would love for you to do it.

So um ministry, though it is not a business, it needs to function in some degree like a business.

So there's a lot of different things.

There's there's overhead, there's cost, there's expenses, all the things that go along with it.

So um what happens with our giving is it helps to accomplish um our salaries, um, the cost of operations, which will include like rental, cameras, all the things that we're able to do right now, um, the ministry, the actual getting out and the things that we do in the community, the the different programs that we put on, missions when we're able to have missions and partnering with missions and things like that, our outreach endeavors, things that we're able to do in the local space, as well as just being generous.

And that could be anything ranging from um benevolence, helping those who are in need, or any other expression of that.

So what happens is that God gives every church a vision, a burden, a responsibility.

There's different churches in every city, um, and different churches have different visions.

Now we're all under the the name of Jesus, but we all have our own unique burdens and responsibilities.

So typically happens is people come to a church because they resonate with the community, they resonate with the assignment that God has given that particular church.

So their giving is how they partner um with the vision that God has given that specific church.

I partner, I believe in what God is calling this church to do, and so my giving is going to help so that we can we can uh move the kingdom forward with the assignment that we've given them.

So um that's where the giving goes, to be very clear, even as it relates to salaries.

Like um the church doesn't pay for my home, the church doesn't pay my bills for me.

I get a salary, you get a salary, and then we're able to use our salaries to do what we need to do.

But no, there isn't like any extra layer of benefits and perks and things that come um to us that are on staff.

It's just it allows us to be able to focus 100% on ministry, but there's not any extra perks that go alongside.

I just want to make sure I was clear about that.

But is there anything you want to add to what our resources look like?

No, I I think you did a good job of describing obviously there's the there's the operational side of it, and then there's the ministry side of it, you know.

So uh keeping the lights on in order to meet with the congregate is pretty important.

So uh stuff along those lines.

But um Pastor Keith, first of all, thanks so much for for being willing to to kind of delve into some of these uh difficult and uh nuanced questions.

Um is there anything you would say to somebody who feels like maybe they were on the cusp of typing a question out and they just couldn't do it?

Uh even though it th all these were anonymous and we don't know who asked them, but but but what would you say to somebody who's wrestling with something, they don't know where to turn, they wanted to ask, but maybe they just for whatever reason couldn't feel like they could ask that question.

Well, I mean what one of the the premise of the series was like God is okay with our questions.

So I'm a firm believer that you know it's always an indicator of leadership or insecurity, whichever one you want to call it, that if God is okay with something, how can we not be okay with it?

So if we're seeing in this series that God can handle the weight of our questions, we see through scripture where people are processing things and and and we see that God creates a safe place for us to do it, my hope is is that we can then exhibit that to our community.

So for anyone who is in our community who has a question, um, it doesn't mean that we have all the answers, but I hope that we're helping to establish that this is a safe place where you can absolutely ask it.

So if you are um on the on the edge or have a question and you like, man, should I ask it, should I not?

Man, please reach out.

You can probably what text our number and and that would probably be a good way for us to do it.

407-559-4747.

Yes.

You don't even have to use a keyword, you can just shoot us a text.

Just shoot the text.

Yeah.

Um, but we would love, we would love to hear from you.

Please don't shy back and shy away from it, man.

I think that we only get better when we can have these conversations.

And I think that's the emphasis that it's uh it's a conversation.

Yeah, for sure.

Or uh Instagram, we monitor that pretty closely.

So you can shoot us a message on Instagram.

But thank you all so much for um for joining us, for for being a part of this.

If you are uh in the area and you're able and willing, we'd love to have you uh join us on a Sunday at Celebration Church Orlando.

But uh until next time, until our next equip, until our next after the message, until our next after the series, whatever it may be.

We'll see you.

Love you guys.

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at Celebration ORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.