After the Message | Greater Than

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at Celebration ORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.

After the message is back.

Yes.

And it's greater than the last season.

Did you have that written down?

No.

You did that on the spot.

Come on, man.

Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

You are listening to After the Message, and it's uh really simple.

It's a conversation from our previous Sunday sermon, and uh we hope that it inspires you to have similar conversations within your circles as well.

Yeah.

My name is Nate, and I am joined by our lead pastor of Celebration Church Orlando, Pastor Keith Pittman.

Glad to be here, brother.

Let's do it, man.

We are what what was the last one?

Grace to you, I think, is what is when we last going back a few.

A season of After the Message seems like an eternity, right?

Romans, man.

And ironically enough, we were chewing on, man, do we do Romans now or do we do Hebrews now?

Like, no, let's let's save Hebrews for 2023.

Yeah, we felt like the people would be ready.

Yeah.

For sure.

We gave them grace in 2022, but now we're gonna give you some meat here in 2023.

That's right.

And it's been good thus far.

And um, you know, I I kind of want to we're gonna be talking about, you know, typically we just kind of um we we kind of continue, like I said, from from Sunday's conference, build off of that, and we'll do a little bit of that as well uh throughout this season of After the Message, but maybe hit touch some things that we don't normally hit on to, so I'm kind of looking forward to those conversations as well.

But uh for those of you listening, uh and it's March already, but happy new year to you if you're not a part of our celebration church community, and if you and if you are, um hopefully you're enjoying uh gonna be enjoying this season of After the Message.

So Hebrews.

First of all, what's been going on since Grace to You and into to greater than Wow with you?

With me, man, um brother, just in you know, enjoying another layer of being a grandfather, which which kind of was already in motion from Grace to You, but then um man, I'm I'm I'm back in school, you know, working on working on this master's degree and and and and counseling and really wanting to just be better equipped to holistically serve the people of God and even folks that are not even in relationship with God.

I look at this as a being uh an evangelistic tool that whether I'm quoting scriptures or not, if if God is going to give me access to people and to help them, I can still use his principles and still let light shine on that.

So I think that's probably the biggest uh the biggest shift for me personally is man, um I was just joking with a friend of mine.

I thought I was past the point of having to cite sources outside of quoting the scripture.

So now I'm like writing papers again, and they're like, okay, well, you gotta do a citation.

And I'm like, well, man, like because I said so.

Why not good enough?

Like just felt right.

Yeah.

So so having to cite sources, school.

I love every aspect of it.

I love growing and learning, specifically when you're zeroed in on a topic that is like, okay, I'm pursuing this for a reason.

Um, but man, those citations.

Yeah.

There are websites now that will generate it for you.

I know, man.

I know, but then you have to like like in-text citations, there's a deal where it's like, yeah, where do I put it at?

Like this whole idea came from that, but at the same time, I'm an intersperson, like so.

Yeah, it's a whole thing in my household where Megan's like, why do you get so worked up about this?

I'm like, man, like, I don't know.

I gotta I gotta get freed up.

I I can relate, and I hope none of my professors listen to this because it's just like I don't do it until it gets to a point where it's detrimental to my grade.

Yes, and so far it's just kind of worked out, and I'm passing classes, so but hey brother, as a good friend of mine told me, man, C's get degrees.

That's right.

So actually, I I was making fun of Megan because she she actually went back to school a semester ahead of me and she would spend so much energy trying to like nail every mark, like, man, I gotta get A's.

And I'm like, at the end of it, like we, you know, we're adults, man, we're leading the church.

We got like like if you get a B, it's okay.

And she's like, okay, you'll see.

And now here I am, literally back at school, and I'll get like a 98 on something.

I'm like, why didn't I get those extra two points?

Exactly.

Like, it's it's I don't know what's wrong with me.

It's real, man.

For and you would think that, you know, after done it doing it for however many years we did it as kids and into college and stuff, it'd be like, Well, I get the concept.

I'm not a great test taker, whatever, but it's not that way at all.

No, man.

Maybe one day we should do like an after-the-message like uh count live counseling session where you we you just counsel me and then we'll put it on the internet and see what happens.

And it can count towards my hours for my license.

So yes, it'll be it'll it works in multiple ways.

Yes.

Like, man, Keith, we want to give you a license, but you've only sat with one guy over and over again.

I'm like, man, it still counts.

Oh man, before we lose everybody listening.

Yeah, for sure.

Let's get back on let's get back on task.

Let's get back to the thought process behind behind Hebrews, why we felt like it was a good uh idea for the church specifically and and and what we thought.

I mean, we started off this year for those who may not be following us as closely.

We started off this year talking about my life, uh, God's way, our story.

Uh kind of touch on that a little bit, and then we'll go into how Hebrews plays a part into that.

What was the what was the fire that kind of ignited you to to coin that phrase?

And it's more than just a phrase, really, it's a it's a it's a way that we're forming ourselves.

So man, it there's I think there's a lot of influences to it that have been accumulating over the years.

And and I truly believe that when we look at church, we have these varying moments that happen that kind of like they almost mark time.

You know, of course, like the birth of Jesus, like okay, that split time.

I feel like whether it's even if it's just internal, the pandemic split time in the context of the church.

And and so I think from then, even though I believe God was already nudging us and our church family in a direction of being more intentional about the ways of God, um, but certainly the pandemic kind of like shed a light on a lot of things, and and mainly um when you looked at what is the role of the church, and and I think that you know we've seen it evolve through the years where the church had obviously early church, biblical church, book of acts, you know, first century church, and now we're looking at the 21st century century church, we got really good at doing church, having systems, and this is where worship goes, and you have these rhythms and it became very inviting, and all that's wonderful.

But I wonder if then people became so codependent on the church that when the pandemic happened and and folks lost that immediate community that they had access to, that we get people more addicted to the church instead of drawn to God.

And and so I think from uh just having a season of walking through how the pandemic affected people's walk with God, not even in an existential like, okay, why did God allow this to happen?

Not talking about that, but just getting out of the rhythm and then all of a sudden they I'm not praying anymore.

Like it's like the ways of God just kind of got missed on them.

It I felt a deeper responsibility for us as a church to take on ownership and saying, yes, we want you to be connected to our community.

Absolutely.

We want you to show up on time, um, on time.

We want you to be there for all of worship.

We want you to like we want you to be there for every aspect of it, but we also realize that that life happens fast and there's a lot of nuances, and we want people to have a strongly dedicated relationship to God.

So that's my long way of saying that.

I think it's sparked during the pandemic, and then when I went on sabbatical, I felt like that was when um I think God, as I was praying about, okay, I'm coming back refreshed, ready to um turn the page, so to speak, and get into this new season um and just let's run.

And I felt like God said, I want you to start leading people in my ways.

So I think the my life, God's way, our story kind of all came together with um my life is each of us at some point taking ownership, understanding where we are.

And that's not like in a sense of like take ownership of your life and just look forward.

It's like, okay, like we've all had trauma experiences, so let's deal with that in a healthy way.

But at some point, what do I do with my life moving forward?

So my life is really just saying, this is where I am.

I'm going to choose to take where I am and who I am and submit it unto God, and I'm going to do it God's way.

That was like the continuity of it.

So I'm going to start doing things God's ways.

And so, of course, knowing that that that our lifestyle will be the a reflection of our life.

But if we want to have life, it has to be seen in our lifestyle.

So it's like this cyclical thing.

Um, but that's kind of what sparked it, and then our story is the community aspect, that is the church.

But it starts with me as an individual, connecting with God, doing things God's way, and being expressed in community with other people.

So that's a very long way of saying um everything I just said.

And it's a great way to say it.

And it's also you know, the the book of Hebrews seems to be a recalibration, right?

Yep.

Um however, there is some ambiguity around the the letter itself.

Um we don't necessarily know who wrote it.

There's differing viewpoints on that, who is who it's even written to.

Obviously, it it looks through a a Jewish lens, but can you touch on that a little bit?

Like why why are we so certain about other portions of scripture?

We're not certain about this one, and yet it made it into what we would refer to as the canon of scripture, even with all that uncertainty.

Yeah, man.

I'm fascinated with that.

So the book of Hebrews is one that's really unique, and a lot of actually quite a good amount of the Psalms we don't know who wrote them.

We say David wrote most of them, and we believe that's true, but there's other ones where like, okay, like we don't know who wrote that, and and yet it still makes it in.

Um and so the way that people were able to identify what kind of what would fit into the canon, what was the measuring stick, there were a couple of variables.

One, it had to have like a uh firsthand like connection to a an a major apostle.

Um so that was like the first thing.

It had to be connected to one of the original apostles, and then there were other things such as like continuity of scripture, making sure that it was like fulfilling the is it instructive, is it helpful, is it encouraging, is it challenging?

Like those variables that they had.

And and then from there, I just believe through the Holy Spirit they kind of like did their deal to work it all together.

Now, as far as Hebrews itself, um, it seems like every time I revisit it, there's another there's another author that's vying for potential um ownership of it.

Um my first when I first got saved, it was like, hey, we think it's Paul, and then it evolved into, well, we think it might be like Barnabas, and then it was Silas, and then it was like, well, Timothy was in that flow, but we don't know if he would have had the same um language skills to write that, but then it was like, okay, well, maybe it was um Phoebe who delivered some of Paul's letters, and and that was a woman, so God, that's only going to mess up things a little bit more.

Um so that it just it continues to grow, but what we do know is that based off of the letters, that it's directly it's closely connected to Paul because the writing styles are very similar in a way that that's very unique to Paul's writing, but it's also clearly deeply Jewish influenced because it's literally writing in a way of showing in comparison.

Here's our traditional Jewish beliefs, let us show you why Jesus is better.

So that's why when they began to look at it through that lens, well, it it had to be a Jewish author because even a secondhand Gentile wouldn't have had that deep revelation that they were comparing Jesus to.

So it began to narrow the field a little bit, which is why a lot of folks go back and forth between um Paul and most recently, man, I heard Priscilla and Aquila, the that was one that I I read that like, okay, that I didn't expect that one.

So again, scholars are trying to figure it out, and and because we're gaining more insight into um just not only just language, but the phrasing of words in the way that like you and I both speak English, but I'm I speak in a certain way, and you speak in a certain way.

So if someone were to go back and examine everything we've ever said and it was all mixed together, they would be, oh no, but Nate says these phrases this way, Keith says it this way.

So they're seeing Paul's influence on a lot of the stuff that's in the letter.

So again, I think it's just one of his disciples, but which one I don't know, but we do know it's inspired.

How cool would it be if it was actually written by like Priscilla or Phoebe?

I mean And maybe that's the reason why for the for the ambiguity on authorship in the first place.

Like, man, can we put this down, you know?

You know, that's that's um I mean we're getting into some things that would probably break some people's theology and just mess their heads up a little bit, but I think you raise a point, maybe that's why God intentionally left it that way, because what if it really was that?

But let's rewind time.

You know, I mean we can go back to even just at the times of Jesus and the way that women were viewed all the way up until now, to be to be quite honest with you.

And if people would have been able to receive from a book that that they knew had um a female authorship, so maybe God intentionally did that, and then you know, we get on the other side and be like, hey, surprise, guess what?

You know, this book you've been studying your whole life, this is the one who wrote it, and just blows people's minds.

Who knows?

That'd be amazing.

Yes, I would love it.

So, you know, I I've kind of looked at this as this study as, you know, what's the big deal about Jesus?

And that sounds like such an obvious uh answer to the question, like, well, he's the son of God, you know.

But uh really a lot of times I think we just we often need to evaluate what we believe, why we believe it.

Are we regurgitating things just because, well, that's what I've heard said in church?

Do I really internalize this and live this out again, my life God's way?

Um but why why was this written to the audience that it was written to?

Like, shouldn't they know about Jesus, or are is this a a reminder?

Is this an introduction?

Like from your take, what what are the why is the writer talking so much about Jesus to this particular audience?

So based off of looking at the the the summary of the book and even just the way that it's written, it's it's written to based off of what we can see, it's written to a Jewish audience who has placed their faith in Jesus, but they don't know if that's enough.

Um and and again it's it's understanding that just some of the language that's utilized, and they're not he's not trying to sell them on an idea.

There's a difference between when Paul was talking to a Jewish audience and trying to witness to them and show them that Jesus was a fulfillment versus uh the writer of Hebrews coming in and saying, like, you guys already got this, but I see that you're wavering in it because of your current reality.

So let me come back and just reinforce that it gets no better than Jesus.

So I think that's the the first thing.

It's just you could just tell that it's written to people who already had a sense of uh a revelation.

I think sometimes, man, um when we when we look at the the Bible specifically, let's look at the book of Acts.

Bro, like when you free the first couple of chapters, the amount of uh Jewish converts there were, thousands, thousands.

So of course you have like the the disciples and you had like you know this this group of people that were slowly beginning to grow.

But by the time the day of Pentecost hits and you see thousands added to the church, and then literally you just see that number appear many other times, and most of them were Jewish people, then you start seeing it expand to Gentiles.

Uh so you have these folks that had this powerful moment, and we look at Paul's conversion, if that's what we want to call it, he has this moment.

But where did they go to find community?

Where did they go to like be developed and to understand like wow, like everything I've been doing was pointing to Jesus.

Uh but my whole like being being Jewish for them, it was so much bigger than a religion.

This was a this was a nationality, this was a community, and as well as an uh an an expression of their faith.

So when you bring Jesus into the mix and some of us believe Jesus is the fulfillment and he's the Messiah, but many of us don't.

Where where do I go with all of this stuff?

And so for that particular group of people, they were beginning to waver because following Jesus meant now I'm connected to Gentiles, which according to the Jewish law, they're unclean.

I'm not even supposed to be around them.

And so it just created this constant sense of a lost identity.

And so I think that the book is written for a very specific group of people.

But if we're honest with ourselves, we can see ourselves in that.

That the moment that we really begin to put our trust in Jesus, it's gonna cost us something.

We all have a lifestyle that is pre-Jesus, we all have things that are just innate in us, but that Jesus requires something of us.

And it's gonna and at some point it's gonna like challenge man, what does it mean to be part of community?

What does it mean to be part of family?

How do I coexist with people that um that I love and know and still have great relationships with, but God's calling me in a different direction.

So I think this book, while very specific in its purpose, has principles that can apply to us, which is why I felt it was important for us to get into it.

I love how God is is okay with the process, you know, of this, and it's reassuring for me as as someone who's pretty matter-of-fact, and like, well, you said this, like, all right, let's do it, you know.

So to hear that they had to figure it out.

There was no golden tablet that dropped from the sky and said, This is the way that it is, right?

You know, it's reassuring to me and hopefully to other people who are on this journey too.

That just stay faithful, keep at it.

We talk about it all the time.

Like, just keep moving forward, keep trusting God in it, and we don't have all the answers, nor will we ever.

And we were kind of talking about that before we started recording.

Like nobody really know we're talking about the most supreme and incredible being outside of anything we could ever think or imagine.

It's a total paradigm shift for the Jew in that circumstance, and then for us here in ours, when we're like, oh my gosh, everything that I built my life on is just it's it's sand, you know, it it doesn't matter.

So, man, I so this this connects to something I was sharing with uh my men's group a couple weeks ago.

I can't remember how we got to this point, but at some point we started talking about um knowledge and being aware of things.

And and it made me think about man, I remember there was a time when I was younger when someone would ask a question and the answer was I don't know.

That was it.

And you continue to do whatever, like, hey, do you know whatever?

No, I don't know.

And and and you learned how to be okay with not knowing.

And so as much as I love technology and we have like the world literally in our hands with our mobile devices, it's it's robbed us of the ability of being okay with not knowing.

And so now we have to know everything, and everything has to be explained, and everything has to have a rationale.

And just when we look at the core of who God is, when he simply says, My ways are not your ways, and at some point you're gonna have to trust me.

So even when we get into Paul's writing with uh Timothy, he says, Man, great is the mystery of godliness.

Like he starts it off by like, so he's been seen of angels, he's been preached to Gentiles, like he's describing Jesus, but he's still like, But bro, it's a mystery.

Like, and when Paul talks about the resurrection, like even Paul, an apostle, is like, Man, I don't know what it's gonna look like, but we're all gonna get changed in a moment, in a twinkling an eye, something's gonna happen where Jesus is gonna descend and we're all gonna be different.

That's all I can tell you.

Like it's and and for that audience, they're like, cool, that's good enough.

For us, we're like, no, but when?

Tell me how.

Well, this is my book on it.

Like, and and we just get wrapped up into having to know instead of being okay with like, I'm just gonna trust God and keep walking us out.

Not in a dangerous, reckless way, but you catch what I'm saying.

Yeah, and I well, I think that's a um it's a hindrance to to faith in the first place.

Yes, and I I think that's where we we lose the awe of God and we you know, we we lose the ability to to worship almost.

Like I can't just throw my hands up and surrender and say, I don't know, Lord, but you're amazing.

I trust you.

That's good enough.

And that's good enough for me.

So um you talked about uh you talked about angels a little bit there in that spiel.

Um why why is this introduced in the in the writing here and why shouldn't it be understood that yeah, Jesus is greater than angels, you know?

Like what's what's what's the point of the writer bringing that to to light?

Were they looking at angels differently?

Were they trusting in angels for certain things?

Like I'm really curious to to know a little bit more about that.

Yeah, it's it was it's connected to like tradition, like in and within again the audience is is is Jewish, we believe.

So they had a they had a great relationship with their with angels and how they understood them.

And so yeah, we we have you know, we count we now see either see chubby babies, we think about our personal assigned, you know, armor-bearer, guardian angels that are with us.

Like we have we've kind of like created our own sub you know culture within it, but for them, they they recognize it's like okay, like God is God and I can't get to God.

A priest will go before me to talk to God on my behalf and deliver God's information.

But when we need someone that's above a priest that's gonna deliver the power of God, the justice of God, who's gonna move on God's behalf, like that's what angels' worlds were.

So for them, whenever an angel showed up, there was one or two things either there's Judgment, or it's going to be okay, I'm going to intervene and get involved.

And so for this particular group of people, we believe that we knew that Jews were being persecuted on both sides because they were being persecuted by their own Jewish brothers and sisters who looked at them as being people who were abandoning what it meant to be a follower of Yahweh.

But then you also had like they were still living in the systems of um Roman imperialism and all those type of things.

So they were being ostracized on both sides of the coin.

And so for them, um, they were starting to look to like, man, we we need the angel that came into part of the Red Sea to come and be with us right now.

Man, we we like even for some, like even the burning bush, like they mean, we we need an angel that's going to come and deliver a fresh word for us.

So they started looking to the creation instead of the creator.

And so that became a point of relief.

And so again, this is like after the Old Testament, so they wouldn't have looked at it the same way that we look at it now, but they're looking at these old narratives that they were part of those stories through their minds.

And so they're looking at when God sent an angel to come and slay 185,000 Assyrians by himself.

Like it's like we need that guy to show up.

Like, so they're literally like beginning to like almost exalt.

And and we have to remember that when we look at the Exodus narrative, which reveals so much about human character, um, but like remember for them, like they had been led out of Egypt, which is this this pantheon paganistic environment.

God's like, no, but there's one true God, and he leads them to um to the mountain, and then Moses goes up and spends time with God.

Like, God is constantly reinforcing, hey, I I am more than enough, I am all you need.

And Moses is gone for like a month, and they already created an idol, they're already worshiping.

And so I know when we look at that, we're like, man, that's so crazy.

Like, how did they not see it?

But bro, if we can be honest, we all have idols.

A month's a long time, too.

Yeah, month's a long time, bro.

Like, you know, most like we give God two weeks, but if not, man, we're gonna get back to these, oh get back to this golden calf.

So, so it it's it shows you how quickly, even in spite of the miracles we've seen God do, how one, we have such little patience, and two, we can default right back to the very thing that God was delivering us from.

And so for them, yes, we understand that that everything in the sacrificial system was pointing to Jesus, and Jesus was the was like he is Yahweh, and okay, we get that.

But man, this this suffering is terrible.

Um maybe, maybe, maybe Jesus is preoccupied.

We need to get that angel back into the mix.

And so they started to find themselves even beginning to to pray to angels.

They found themselves really beginning to create that golden calf to try to invite angels to get back into the mix instead of recognizing no, like, Jesus is above the angels.

And I think that that was a a theological paradigm shift that the author felt they needed to embrace.

Gotcha.

And then also he he talks a lot about Moses and he has to introduce that Moses is greater.

And again, I look at that and go, Well, duh, like Moses was just a regular guy, you know, thousands of years ago, and we're based on our doctrine now, we're looking at Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God, like God in human form.

Um were they was there like a microcosm of worship to Moses?

Oh man.

It's funny because when Moses was when I would say I, you know, active in ministry, but when Moses was like on the streets, they complained about Moses the entire time.

Right?

The entire time.

But then once the next generation finally made it to the promised land, their reflections on Moses was like one of like heroic status.

You know, so again, it's just kind of like when you're leading people through it, they're like, You're the worst person ever.

When you're on the other side, the next generation like, okay, it was because of Moses, and God uses all of that.

But I think there's a lot of things that God foresaw, and and what God foresaw was knowing that man, Moses was the was my chosen vessel to to go and lead these people out of Egypt.

Really, really big deal, massive deal.

But the problem is um our desire to exalt our leaders is profoundly unhealthy.

And I'll just pause with that.

Like we all have the tendency to do that.

So literally, when Moses dies, they don't even know where he's at.

If you look at scripture, like no one knows there's no tomb set up for Moses.

We know that God honored him, but God didn't even tell them where he was because he knew that they would have made that into a shrine.

So from then God was trying to help them to understand, like, he's my chosen vessel, we will honor him.

He's literally throughout the entirety of the book, he was responsible for setting the tone of what worship looks like to God in a true way.

Like Moses is a pillar of our faith, but at the end of the day, God was still saying, I can't even let you know where I've buried him because you will make that a bigger deal, and nothing is bigger than Jesus.

So, so yes, Moses was this traditional figure that carried such weight that they began to try to refer back to the ways of Moses because again, they're they're struggling, they're suffering, they're disappointed, and they're thinking to themselves, like, well, man, like what would Moses do?

Like, we say what would Jesus do?

Man, what would Moses do right now?

Because that was their guy.

And so again, the author's trying to reinforce Moses was a chosen vessel that was leading to Jesus.

Like everything that we see in scripture was pointing to Jesus.

So you got it.

It gets no better.

There's nowhere else you need to look, but they still needed to be reminded of that.

The I kind of jumped the gun a little bit.

Uh I want to revert back to uh the the angel discussion and the fact that do they you know, you talked about we have this idea of angels as you know, with the wings or their babies or whatever, you know, however we try to interpret uh this spiritual being.

Do they have any intervention in the natural world today?

Was that a thing was that a thing of times past?

You know, we hear about guardian angels, we pray that God would send his angels to protect us.

I've heard people pray that before.

What's your what's your take on on that?

Well, the way that scripture defines angels as they're they're ministering spirits, so that means that that it's not so much about me having my own assigned angel, it's understanding that that a saint that angels have assignments.

And and so I don't know if I can, you know, I don't want to mess with anybody.

I'm not gonna sit here and say, like, in this room right now, I have my angel that's been with me since birth.

But what I will tell you is I do believe that God has ministering spirits around us that we would define as angels that are protecting his will in our lives.

And so those words can sometimes be a little bit muddied, but yes, there are ministering angels that that God utilizes, and I think that's one of the mysteries that that still is with us.

The other thing to to make a distinction of is that you know the Bible Project has a great video, several of them, but a great video that talks about spiritual beings.

Um and so we kind of like use angel as an overarching, okay, yeah, spiritual beings, that's basically, you know, there's God, he's other, there's angels that are in between us and God, and then there's a man.

Um but within the context of the angel or spiritual being family, bro, there's there's different levels to it.

Um and so you have like cherubims, and and these are like these these massive like angelic beings with multiple wings, and and they like it's literally like they they as we would say, they protect the holiness of God.

So when you think about um the tabernacle and the the the angels that are inscribed on the that are like literally put apart in the design of the the blue curtain that was meant to be like there's a barrier here.

These angels are protecting the holiness of God.

When Isaiah um describes the throne room of God and he talks about how they're saying holy, holy, holy, like these things that these prophets are describing, um, they're always describing these cherubims, like these, they're not even like if you if we were to try to and sometimes when I see these things defined in scripture, you know, there's a moment of okay, is this a literal description or is this a figurative description that's defining their expressions, but it doesn't mean it's a literal interpretation, because when they define and describe what a what a cherubim looks like, it's scary.

I mean it's terri I mean multiple wings, the the feet with hooves, a lion's face, the eyes of an eagle, like there's a lot of dun dimensions to that that just makes it seem terrifying in and of itself, but that it's supposed to represent all of creation exists within them.

So they're an expression of all of God's creation, which is why man is there, wings are there, like it's all of God's creation culminated in these beings.

So you got that.

Um then you have like um like these messenger angels, these are the ones that you'll see that that look like us and and and they show up, and it's like, man, like you know, when when Abraham's chilling outside and and just sees these three random figures show up, and it's like, oh cool, man, y'all want to get something to eat, and then they're talking, and now he's talking to the angel of the Lord, which is literally what many would just say is was God in the flesh prior to Jesus.

So the angel of the Lord, because he actually receives worship.

So anytime an angel receives worship, that's that's the angel that's like God in the flesh before Jesus.

And so you have them receiving worship, but then you have these other angels that are like there when they go and rescue Lot, like, hey bro, come with us.

Like, and they knew that they were otherworldly beings.

Um, then you have like these warring angels that will come down.

So there's these different layers to it, and they all have different functions, but we know that at the end of the day that they they are commissioned to make sure that the will of God is executed.

Um you have archangels, which is they're like a big deal.

Like that's that's the that's the Gabriels in the mix, that's the Michaels um in the mix.

They're completely a whole different thing.

They're they're often defined as like warring angels.

So it's like, yeah, like these are these are the dudes that if it's if it's gotta go down, these are the ones that are gonna show up.

And so I don't even know Don't make me call Gabriel up.

Yeah, don't make me call Gabriel up in here, man.

And and and there's a terrifying, there's a terrifying presence that they carry because more often than not, when God sends one of these angels to show up, I don't know what it is about their appearance.

Um but they always start their statements off with fear not.

Because when regular angels, when they look like man, there was no fear.

It was like, okay, cool, like, yeah, maybe you're sent from God.

But when these angels show up, it's like fear not.

God sent me, it's all cool, I'm not here to judge.

Like, there's something about their presence that that just stokes fear because there's like a there's a reverence, there's a power, there's a glory on them that I think changes atmosphere.

So, yes, there's there's all these distinctions that are there, and I think when we get on the other side, we'll understand how it all fits together.

But absolutely there's these spiritual beings, and and they all play a crucial component into making sure that the ultimate will of God is executed.

And so we play a part in that, even though we're not angels, but they're there to protect the will of God.

And what's the I can't remember the location of the verse, but you mentioned angels that are like us, and it says something about uh you may entertain angels or something without even knowing.

You're not even aware of that.

Yes.

Bro, can you imagine that if you've like interacted with an angel or given hospitality to an angel and you don't even know?

Like, I feel like, man, um, I think we all have and don't know it.

Yeah.

Which is why um, you know, I'm I'm there's a couple things that that's really important to me.

This is like my own little soapbox.

Okay.

We we live in uh we live in a world where there's depravity.

We live in a world where people are are are struggling, whether with mental health issues, low socioeconomics, all the things.

And so when you know, I'm driving home, you know, we are we're here in downtown Orlando, and I'm riding, leaving out of downtown Orlando, it's inevitable that I'm gonna see somebody on the street that that's asking for money.

You know, so I'm sitting there at a at a light or whatever, and um we all know the the awkward like either I have it on me and I just don't feel compelled to give it, and that could be its own separate deal, or I don't have it on me, so what do I do?

Um but one of the things I felt compelled to teach my family at a very young age is like whether you give or you don't, you know, that's your prompting with God.

But what you have to do is give dignity.

Look them in the eye.

Don't act like they don't exist.

Don't just like look them in the eye, and in and and sometimes we're afraid that that's going to just engage, but I just believe that the thing that I can provide is dignity, and I'm hopeful that whatever this interaction is, it's one that at least you feel that you were dignified.

I think we'd be amazed at the people that we don't even pay attention to that could have potentially been an opportunity for us to engage an angel, but we just missed it.

You said the You said the Bible Project has a video on this for people to check out.

Yep.

It's uh it's it's under their collection of spiritual beings.

I think that's the collection of all the videos that are in it.

But they they have one that I think is distinct to angels.

They have one on demons.

Because here we gotta remember, if angels are protecting the will of God, protecting it from what?

Right.

Protecting it from from who.

So in everything that we see, there must be something that generated a a purpose for it.

So it really breaks down the understanding what spiritual warfare is in a sense of just understanding, like, yeah, like there's there's these beings that oppose us.

So what role do angels play in that?

I think Daniel um beautifully articulates it.

So when we look in the book of Daniel and where we get the Daniel fast from, um, there's a powerful story that sometimes we miss.

Tell me if you heard this.

Um Daniel's been fasting and praying for 21 days, and then um then literally an angel shows up.

And and when an angel shows up, he comes up to uh Daniel's like, Hey bro, um God heard your prayer 21 days ago when you first started praying, but I was withheld by Satan from getting here.

So Michael came to fight Satan on my behalf so I can come here and deliver God's message.

I'll just leave it at that.

Dude.

I need to read that.

Yes, it's a real thing.

And you're you're just like, what?

It's it's given us these glimpses into a spiritual warfare that I don't even think we comprehend.

Like God heard your prayer, he sent me to come and deal with it, but I was withheld by Satan.

So Michael's now fighting with Satan, so I can get here and deliver this message to you.

I think that there's things that are going on that we actually do comprehend because we see it in our own world, like warfare, fighting, and things like that.

We don't even recognize that that's happening spiritually.

Man, we need to do a I don't know if it's a series or an online teaching or or just a podcast, even about spiritual warfare.

Like what is it?

Yeah.

You know, how do we recognize it?

Do we recognize it?

How do we pray against?

I don't know.

Because it's a it's a topic that frankly was not in the tradition I grew up in.

It was it was a little taboo to kind of talk about that stuff, you know, and depending on who you talk to, they may have differing viewpoints on it.

So our our theological framework can sometimes uh put a lid on the certain things, it can box certain ideas in.

Um we did a very um we did a very brief, like overarching teaching on um spiritual warfare that we that we did.

It's actually on our usual.

Armor of God.

Armor of God.

Yes.

And so again, it's using okay, if if they're saying that we have armor, armor is language that insinuates you're in some kind of a battle.

Yep.

What are you in the battle with?

And so that was kind of my take on it in that.

So that's like I think three or four segments that break that down.

That's a good start.

Um, but that's a probably a good start.

But I do think there's a much bigger discussion to be had about let's really get into this.

What about so when Paul says we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, that's a whole nother dimension of demonic rankings.

Like it's there's so many layers to it, bro.

So yes, I think it would be good for us to let's get the people what they want.

If they want it, or is it just me and you?

It could be just us.

Okay, cool.

We'll we'll just be satisfying our own extended.

We'll go grab grab lunch and talk about spiritual warfare and report back.

Yes, you got all your force later.

I feel like the theme of today, man, is just mystery.

You know, just mystery, which is great to talk about.

Yes.

But uh, you know, last thing before we kind of wrap up here that I definitely wanted to address address from the sermon and kind of get a little bit more um context around was this idea that Jesus is greater than religion.

Yeah.

Those two sound synonymous, right?

I mean you think of sure.

Well, what's your religion?

Well, I'm and even within the technical term of Christianity, people will define their religion as something different, you know.

Are you a Catholic or are you a Christian?

Well, that they kind of started out of the same thing.

You know, so but what do you mean by that statement?

And for someone maybe who is kind of new to the faith or trying to figure things out, when they hear religion, they think, well, that's what this is, right?

That's what this whole thing is about.

So could you unpack that to the board?

So, you know, there's a couple of there's the most direct way to answer that question is religion became a system of practices to express our belief in God.

So, in and of itself, the concept of having these parameters of what it means to be a follower of Christ is not a bad thing.

The religious spirit that we are talking about now is when the religious structures are so sh so stringent that God can't do a new thing.

So you and I have often talked about, I think, because when you and I are wired the same in certain areas, where I feel like I feel like you a little bit more than me, you have so much sympathy for the Pharisees because you're like, man, they're just doing the best they can, man.

Like they don't, they don't, they don't know.

Like, Jesus, this guy shows up, man.

You know how many rebellions they've dealt with, so many people showing up claiming they're the Messiah?

Like, yeah, so of course they're gonna be the these guardians of of what it means to be followers.

They they're learning from what happened with those guys in 40 years and and and the many times that they ended up in bondage.

Like these guys are just trying to hold the line.

I get it.

Yeah, I know you do, man.

I know you do.

So that's what I mean by religion, where it's like it's so rigid and it's so structured that we can't recognize, we can't even recognize when God's trying to do something that's beyond our rigidness and our rigid structures.

So when we're talking about Jesus is greater than our religion, I'm talking about the structures that are meant to contain God.

And so unfortunately, there's every every denomination feels like, in some way, whether they say it or not, they have the they have the blueprint and the trademark on what it means to be a worshiper of God.

Um and so for the the the people that are being addressed in this, again, their context is yes, we we we recognize Jesus as Messiah, but maybe we still need to have these religious practices in place in order to gain access to God.

So they were still thinking, man, maybe I need to go back to utilizing the sacrificial system in order to get close to God.

Maybe I need to go back to going through the priests and having a day of atonement in order for us to gain access to God.

So these were religious practices, these were disciplined practices that were meant to draw people closer to God.

And so the writer is and was saying, bro, you don't need to do those things anymore in that same posture because Jesus fulfilled all that stuff.

You actually have access.

Don't let your religion put a lid on what God's doing now.

He fulfilled that, and so now let's move forward.

But the principle that we could pull from that is we all have gotten structures and things that we feel that help us to feel more spiritual or draw closer to God, and and and that becomes our religious spirit.

We look at other people and we oh, do you see them?

Look at the way they're dressed, like we judge.

We have all these things that either have been we've inherited from family, we've inherited from um our traditions, we've inherited from our um our denominations, and they become the lid in which we see everything, and anything other than that is is not God.

And so I think what we're ultimately trying to conclude is that what if what if God was bigger?

What if God is bigger than the box that we try to put him in?

And so just remembering um that Jesus is God's way to man, but religion is man's way to God.

And it rem it brings us back to you know the story um of Nimrod.

And what Nimrod did is that he wanted to build a man-made structure that could go into the heavens.

And and I often wonder if sometimes we have these religious things that we're doing, these man-made influenced things that are trying to get us to get into heaven.

And honestly, when you look at that prophetically, and you know, I love stepping on toes with this, that's what we are looking at our political systems for, our governmental structures.

We've become the modern day Nimrods that are building these structures that we think get us closer to God, and we've lost sight of the fact that Jesus has already done it all.

Yeah, he's already come.

He's already come.

Heaven's already available.

Yep.

Amen.

Yes.

All right, man.

Well, just getting started, and I'm I'm fired up.

Yes, sir.

I'm ready to go for the next few episodes.

So, guys, thanks so much for tuning in.

Make sure uh you guys stick around for uh the remainder of our series, greater than, and uh, you know, if you're in the Orlando area, we'd love to have you hang out with us.

So uh Pastor Keith, thank you so much, and we'll do it again next time.

Glad to be here.

And one of the things I failed to do, Nate, when our opening was man, Papa Nate.

Papa Nate.

That is our that is our our nickname for for for Nate Capshaw.

So if you are in the Orlando area, he would actually be preferred to going forward as Papa Nate.

Yeah, or or just wipes.

You can give me you can buy baby wipes or wipes.

But he said he'll accept both.

So we'll catch it next time.

Thank you for joining us for after the message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at Celebration ORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.