After the Message | Greater Than | Week 2

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at Celebration ORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of After the Message.

If you are stumbling along this podcast, you're on the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

And like I said, it's a segment we like to call After the Message.

Yes.

And uh it's just a conversation of the previous Sunday sermon or series or whatever teaching that we're in here at Celebration Church Orlando.

So glad that you're listening wherever you are, however you may be listening.

Uh today, again, I'm joined by our lead pastor, Pastor Keith Pittman.

How are you, my friend?

I'm doing wonderful, man.

I this is gonna be like my new favorite spot, man.

Right here.

Right here.

Just me and you just sitting here talking, and the conversations that lead up to the conversations are always great that we'll never be able to air, but they're still awesome.

Yeah, for sure.

Not that they're inappropriate.

No, never that.

Never that.

It's just that, man, we we get a chance to kind of because we know each other and we're friends, we could just talk openly about things without having to package it a way that it can be um we don't have to um sanitize it.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Someone asked me the other day, like uh he was asking me, we were having a coffee, and he goes, What do you got going on today?

I was like, Well, you know, I got a couple meetings and stuff, and I gotta record this podcast for uh for church.

He goes, like, where do you guys record that?

And I just wanted to be like, it's this really super nice studio.

We're basically in a closet.

Yes, we're in a we're in a very it's a dope closet though.

They did some great decoration in here, but I can like see where it's falling apart.

But it it's it's a cool closet.

You would never know, man.

They would never know, man.

The things we have to do, man.

We're on a we're on a lean budget, brother.

That's right.

That's right.

Good stewardship as a good idea.

Absolutely, exactly.

We are continuing on in our series of Greater Than, where we are looking at uh the book of Hebrews and what that means for the people who read it in their time, what it means for us, how do we connect the dots, and just really looking at uh Jesus uh of all things, the Son of God.

So and and his importance and his role obviously in in our lives.

Um and speaking of importance, I was kind of thinking about this the past couple days.

You know, we do these we do these series, we we do these uh looks into different portions of scripture, and people come on Sunday and they hear it.

But I kind of want to get your take on what the role and responsibility of uh a congregant or just a person attending a church is for understanding the Bible versus what's the role of the pastor or the teacher or you know what I mean?

Because in any student-teacher relationship, and in any you know, uh pupil relationship with the with our apprentice relationship, any of those types of things, there's a responsibility on both ends, right?

Absolutely.

And so what do you think let's let's ask it this way what do you think it should be and where do you think it is currently within let's just call it America?

Well, I mean that's a that's a whole that's a that's a loaded question.

So uh, you know, we were literally just talking about this, um, and me really beginning to think differently about what's the role that the church plays in all of these things.

And and while I hate to always look in the rearview mirror, but I think context helps, um, I may have mentioned it on here.

I know I've said it in our meetings and things, but I I do believe that when we when we went through 2020, the pandemic, I think that that really recalibrated a lot of pastors because for us, you know, we would probably historically say that our role is um to look at the look at the community that you're serving in, knowing the individual needs that are there, and then you basically are s preaching what we would refer to as felt need messages.

What are the biggest needs in your community?

So for our demographic, there, you know, we've we've evolved quite a bit, but there was a time when um a large portion of our demographic was um was single.

And and you know, and so a lot of our messages are built around how to how to be you know how to be single, how to date.

Like you're talking these felt need messages, you're kind of looking at the season of life that people are in, and you're looking at this this great volume of of God's mind, will, and heart, and then you use that filter when reading it, and you're extracting these principles that are meant to help people with their current season.

And I certainly feel like there's a there is a a responsibility that's in that, but I think where the the church in America has fallen short is that it's created like a consumeristic view of God, where we we end up looking at um the church and pastors and even the Bible as like a self-help manual, and they're approaching it looking for their need to be met on any given Sunday, what's the series, what's the topic?

Let me get what I need in this current season, and if I don't get that, then I'll just hop to the next church that's gonna do that, or I will listen to the next podcast that's gonna do that.

And while that may have helped people to um apply practical tips that's gonna help them, I don't think it helped them to grow in godliness.

And the only thing that can produce maturity is growing in godliness.

And so unfortunately, I don't feel like the church in America has historically done a great job at that, but I do see a shift in that, and I'm hoping that that shift can continue to go.

So I think the part that we have to play as a church, and and I think that the church, and then also by you know, me as a as a pastor, us as people that are on staff at a church, I I think we have to we have to do our part to make sure that we're preaching Jesus.

And and it's not like Jesus as your as your friend, Jesus as um as as anything other than Jesus as Lord.

And I think if we don't do a good job at that, then we will have a a a disproportionate view of Jesus that's not a reflection of them of us having uh a culture that has um a rich theological understanding of of who God is.

So when circumstances come and those three points don't fit into that circumstance, um, we're seeing people leave the faith and we're seeing people fall away.

And so I feel our responsibility um is to get people more rooted into who God is, God rooted into God's word, rooted into the community of faith.

And then through that, yes, we can provide practical application on um how do I put these things into practice in these areas of my life, but I firmly believe that our responsibility now um is to shift away from these quote-unquote felt need messages and get back to preaching Jesus.

Because the truth of the matter is when we look at scripture, and the reason why I love um looking at the book of Hebrews and when we do the book of um when we did Romans and in any series that we do, the reason why I'll spend a good amount of time looking at the context is that while there may be completely different time spans, um, circumstances may appear different on the surface, at its most base level, they were not dealing with anything different than what we're dealing with.

They had insecurities, they had fear, they deal, they dealt with how do I navigate through government, how do I deal with family issues, but yet the gospels and what we see in the Bible, they're not focusing exclusively on that.

They're focusing on hope in Jesus, which then means I think we need to get back to doing what they did, which is finding hope in Jesus, and it will express itself in every area of my life instead of three ways to feel better when I'm at work.

Yeah.

I don't mean I'm sorry, man.

You know what I'm saying?

I get it, dude.

I I totally get it.

But that's it's true.

Like I look for that sometimes, you know, even when I'm just going through a difficulty or something.

Like, how do I get out of this feeling?

How do I get out of this situation?

What's what's gonna fix this?

Yep.

And so I think that um it's a good reminder of you know, ultimately, yes, God fixed the ultimate problem, but it's not always about uh a remedy or a band.

Like sometimes you just go through hard stuff.

Yes.

And that's still not cool to preach on Sunday.

That's not gonna make your church grow, that's not gonna make people show up, that's not gonna make people post it on social media.

Um, but I do think it will produce strong Christians.

I I remember um sitting with a couple.

This is a really off metaphor, but I think it'll it'll come full circle.

I I remember sitting with a couple once, and they had been married for about 10 years.

And as well, as as Megan and I are sitting with them and just talking to some of the challenges that they're going through, we probably met with them like four times.

And and and quite candidly, after this fourth meeting, Megan and I are talking, and I'm like, man, like they're really struggling with some some basic entry point things as it relates to being married.

And I was like, man, like you know, they've been together for 10 years, and I just I don't know how they made it this far without resolving some of these things, but I was hoping that you would see more maturity.

It just said basic level things, and and I really went to God in prayer, like, Lord, I really want to help them.

We're gonna we're gonna get them connected to a Christian counselor, but as they're pastors, how can I better serve them?

They've been together for 10 years, and I kept saying it over and over again, man, and and God blew my mind.

He said to me, He said, Keith, they have not been married for 10 years, they've been married for one year, they just done it 10 times, and and and that shifted my paradigm when it comes to maturity.

And so when I begin to think about people who say, Hey, I've been a Christian for 10 years, it's it's really asking ourselves, have we really been Christians for 10 years?

Or have we been a Christian for one year and we just happen to do it 10 times because we're not growing, we're not maturing.

And so I feel like the responsibility for us as the church, but then also for people that are showing up in the doors, is is this tension that Paul talks about man, like there's a time when you could drink the sincere milk of the word, but at some point the meat of the word is necessary in order for you to grow, and I think that we have to stop presenting just milk when people are ready for meat, and making sure we have environments where milk is available, but we also have an environment where meat is available.

We have to do both.

Yeah, and that's even in Hebrews as well.

Yeah.

Um he's talking talking literally about you know getting off getting off milk, and like, do we really have to keep talking about the forgiveness of sins?

And do we really have to keep talking about the basics of the like it's it's there in black and white too.

And I think that's a tension that I always feel because at the end of the day, we started off this conversation talking about we just need to get back to preaching Jesus, and if we're not preaching Jesus, then what are we doing?

Yeah, but also there's there's more to talk about too.

There's more to So I I'd love to hear your thoughts on that because I'm sure you wrestle with it as well.

Like I have to preach Christ crucified, you know, buried and raised from the dead.

I have to preach the gospel.

But do I preach that or do I talk about that or do I teach that the same way?

You know, like how do you justify or how do you consolidate that in your mind when you're when you're trying to lead?

I think um everything, you know, I I remember going to a conference many, many years ago.

Um and and I promise you, I'm not meaning to name drop, but I'll say it.

But it was it was a TD Jakes like leadership conference that that somehow I I found myself in, and it was like with young pastors back when I was a little bit younger.

And when he was talking about his particular style of preaching, which again, that's not something you can copy and paste.

I mean, he's in his own stratosphere.

But one of the things that he said was, um, and I it stuck with me, he said, Man, we all know that the answer is Jesus.

And so as you're preaching, as you're preparing, as you're looking at your series, like the answer is Jesus, and you need to conclude whatever message or whatever series with revealing that Jesus is the answer.

Anything other than that, then you've missed the mark completely.

But the tension that you're building and getting there, that's where the creativity, that's where the self-awareness of what's going on in your community, and that's where preaching the whole council of the Bible comes into play.

So the way that I look at it is whether even when, you know, a few years ago when I first got here, um, we did a series on Exodus.

And I mean, it was a fully immersive series, man.

We we I think it was like eight weeks, we had a devotional that went with it.

It was very immersive.

And so that's an old testament book.

And so as we're preaching through these varying things and we're talking about the the children of Israel, God's chosen people, God taking them out of Egypt, and then the men being in the wilderness and them getting to the promised land, like you would often think if we kind of separate the old covenant and new covenant, like, okay, that's its own thing.

Where does Jesus fit into that?

But what you'll find with Jesus when he came on the scene and he's talking, he's like, hey, everything was pointing to me.

So our responsibility is to say, okay, so when I look at the Old Testament, and as scripture says, is that the Old Testament was meant to be an example, it's principles that we can pull from.

And so even though it's a very real story for the people of God at that time, the principles from that, Egypt has always been looked at as the place of sin.

The wilderness has always been the place of man walking on this journey and wrestling through some things, and the promised land has always been a reflection of what it means to thrive.

So then what you do is you look at that same story and you look at the practical journey of it, but then you begin to say, Man, Jesus came and led me out of Egypt.

Jesus came and was walking me through the wilderness so that I can get whole.

And Jesus came and he also led me into the promised land so I can begin to thrive.

So the tension that I feel, but I also have reconciled is understanding the ability that I can preach all of it because Jesus said it's all about him anyway.

But then whenever I do find myself looking at passages of scripture that may not overtly point to Jesus, I'll ask, where is Jesus in this?

And I can still teach it, but still lead people to showing that Jesus is ultimately the answer.

And you mentioned something there that uh the old covenant, new covenant, and it's even something that you you touched on uh this past Sunday a little bit too.

Uh is there any any historical precedence outside of scripture for a covenant?

You know, what what is it?

How did it come to be?

Is it is it a God ordained thing only?

You know, and what's the difference between that and like an agreement or a promise or or is there a difference?

I I feel like there scripture has more weight to it.

You know, we talk about it when we do weddings and things of that nature as well, but but from where you sit, um what what is the precedence for a covenant and how does it still apply is it still applicable for us today?

Yeah, absolutely.

So yeah, it would be it would be an agreement, but I think what what gets lost in our current language is when we think about an agreement, we think about a contract, and um you know you you sign your name saying, Hey, I'm gonna pay this bill, or I'm gonna make this mortgage note every single month, I'm gonna do my part.

And um and all of that stuff stems from the ancient Near East.

That was the concept back then, so they actually did have these arrangements in these agreements that were that were legal um in their in the way that they were brought about.

So, yes, the whole concept of when we have contracts, it's all pulled from the the principle of covenants.

So the thing that I think is really fascinating and and it's it took me a while to arrive here, is that when when you know God is God, he's other.

That's the it that's not a description, but nonetheless, it's just that's the only one I got.

And so when he chose to engage mankind, he used and he used the methodologies that we were familiar with in order to communicate right his will and to communicate things.

And so even though God is other, he would still utilize things that we were familiar with in order to show that even in the systems that you guys have created, I'm gonna show you my way through them.

So honestly, man, the idea of of covenants and things like that, that existed even outside of what we would define as the godly context.

It was very common for people to go into arrangements and to establish agreements with one another, and that's how you would have partnerships with nations.

You see this even back in Genesis when you talk about like um when the different nations would bind together, they would have covenants with one another.

Like, hey, you guys, because we're gonna be partners with one another, like they're like the first NATO, like, okay, you guys got this, we got that, we'll trade together, we're in agreement, and if a war jumps off, we're gonna all attack our enemy together.

So that was very common.

You see that stuff established everywhere.

So when God comes on the scene in a way that he's engaging, specifically when he goes from okay, with Abraham and then forward, even you know he does it with Noah as well, but but when we begin to talk about when God pulls a group people group out and says, This is my people, and this is what that's going to be, that starts kind of like with um with Abraham.

What we see then is like, okay, I'm offering you everything, and the only thing I'm requiring from you is loyalty.

That's the first time you see a supreme kingdom or a supreme king entering into a covenant with a people group who really can offer him nothing.

Um, but that all ties back to but God's desire for us to be representatives of him to a world that could hopefully ultimately lead people back to him, and that's where you get into the responsibilities of priests, and I don't want to get off on on the sidetrack.

But ultimately, that's where covenants come in.

So, yes, they did exist in the world, so that's how it became the vehicle because we got to think, man, when God is communicating with people and he's saying, I'm gonna create a covenant with you, they would have had no concept of what that was.

Abraham's like, What's a covenant?

But he was familiar with that because that was something that was utilized in the time of the day.

But when God says, I'm establishing a covenant with these people and I want nothing from you except your loyalty and to represent me well, it's like, man, like who is who is man that God is mindful of them?

Like, what what's so special about us?

Nothing.

But I'm choosing you to be my reflection and to be the people that are gonna lead people back to me.

Do you accept it?

And so that's kind of where the covenant, and so that's where the whole, okay, so Abraham's like, yeah, so God's like, but it's gonna cost you something.

What?

Man, you're gonna have to get a knife out, bro, and um and and and perform a little bit of surgery.

And so, you know, that that covenant, that cutting away, that was that was the way that they were set apart.

And that was basically what God asked for.

And so now for us as New Testament believers, it asks that we be circumcised in our hearts, that there's a heart change for us that shows that we're in this relationship with God.

So I don't know if that answers the question, but it does exist.

I do feel like we've lost the the plot a little bit when we think about covenants and contracts and what it means, but it's ultimately we see it expressed um in marriages.

So when I officiate weddings, like, hey, you guys are entering into a covenant, this is a sacred, I guess that would be the word that I would add to it.

It's a sacred agreement um between us and God, and that's what makes this a little bit different than um and I'm running late on my American Express bill and I'm not living up to my part of the deal.

Like, yeah, there's consequences for that, but when you're entering a sacred thing, that's like a vow before you and God, and it just carries weight to it.

Yeah, absolutely.

You also, you know, touched on Sunday how anytime there was a covenant, it was usually sealed with shedding of blood.

Yeah.

Which seems barbaric to us, you know, and I think it's it's a little bit of snobbery to say thousands of years later that that was wrong or weird uh when we weren't there.

But nevertheless, it can be confusing you know when you are reading it or when you are discovering it for the first time.

And it can seem like God is unreasonable that he would ask such a thing.

So can you help us can you help us get past this a little bit and be able to see it for for what what it truly is?

And yeah.

I mean and I don't know any way to to make it easy for us.

I think that there's a couple of things that have helped me.

Um and and this sounds so ridiculous, man, but when I when I really, really started digging deep into scripture and finding some very uncomfortable things in the Bible, there's there's a couple of things I had to come to, but the first thing I'll say is that I I had to consider I don't know everything.

And as and as basic as that is, that means that I can't read an ancient book that's inspired by a being that's other than me, that's that's the creator of all things, and I can't superimpose my Western privileged perspective to critique God.

So I I have to enter it into a posture of humility and saying that in my logical ways there will always be a disconnect.

But then I also have concluded that when God says that my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts, and the way that I function is not the way that you function, and there's going to be things that don't make sense to you, but it all works together for the good.

Because on the back end of that, when he says, But I will forgive your sins and cast them into the sea of forgetfulness, I'll like those are things that are also worth like okay, so in the same way that I may not understand some of this barbaric stuff, I'll never understand why God chose to say that I want.

To dwell with these people, I'm willing to forgive them of their sins and their shortcomings.

I'm going to make it so that they don't have to do anything to get into heaven except accept my sack.

So I can't on one end critique one part about God, but not be willing to recognize this other extreme of God as well.

So those two things can coexist, and I just have to trust that God's ways are not my ways.

And so when we look at the the barbaric nature of the way that things were, I think that it's just again, it's looking at the times.

And then I also have had to look at scripture through the lens of some things are prescriptive and some things are descriptive.

And and those two distinctions are just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean that it's endorsed by God.

Some things are just a description of things that happened as a result of the culture, the world, and the context in which things were.

So some things are just describing.

So even when you see slavery in the Bible and these other things that you see, and it's like, bro, this is brutal.

That's a description.

That's not God saying, hey, this is what I want.

It's more so saying this is the consequence of us choosing to take from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

We decided what was right and wrong.

We created and ushered in a world of brokenness and chaos, and this is the consequence of it.

God didn't create this, this is the reality that we live in.

God didn't tell the whole Canaan Abel dynamic that that man brought that in.

When you start to see the depravity of man, every instance it was a man who made that choice, and there was a ripple effect that we still are dealing with the consequences of.

So God was able to use the very system that man brought in to bring about redemption.

So for me, I tend to look at it from how God used our barbarism, if that's a word, to bring redemption, as opposed to why I was that there in the first place.

God didn't create it, He just used it to bring about redemption.

Yeah, and man, that first of all, I'm ready to get saved all over again after that.

Um but second of all, it it kind of invoked this idea uh I I think all the time about you know, if Jesus were to just come hang out for a little bit, wh what would he think about the church and how things, you know, I I drove by a very large church in our city the other day and I was just looking at and it was just like, is this what he had in mind?

You know, like is this really what he thought or what he but somehow, some way in his goodness and grace, he may not necessarily endorse it, but he's still using it to reach the world.

Yes, he's still using it for us to be able to gather in community with one another.

And if that isn't a just a testament to how incredibly kind and compassionate God is.

I I was so last night, you know, we have our you know, just as a plug, we have our discipleship class that we have.

And so um, so I was I was you know blessed enough to to be able to go and and and sit with some of the folks that were there.

And and one of the things that I shared with them was um we are in spite of all of our challenges, and there's a lot that we could talk about.

We can look at the globe, we can look at the news, we could look at the wars, we could look at all the stuff, the division, the racism, the hatred, the oppression, like we could look at all that stuff, and certainly, man, it's it's trying times.

Um But from a dispensational perspective, we were born on the right side of that, in my opinion.

Meaning this, we just so happened to be born under the dispensation of grace.

And this the dispensation of grace is the is just this outpouring of God's tolerance because of the sacrifice of Christ.

Pre-Jesus, there was there was judgment and there was rigidness, and there was this critical aspect and us showing that we could never live up to God's standard on our own terms and and our own abilities.

And so that was very clear.

That's the dispensation of law.

Now we have the dispensation of grace.

Jesus fulfills it all, and he is so gracious.

And so, to your point, even in our folly, even in our mistakes, God's like, man, I'll I'll use it.

Okay, yeah, there that is not what I had in mind, but I'll still use it.

God's working all things together, and that's all the messiness that we see.

Sometimes I see bad doctrine, I see bad theology, I see people preaching politics from platform, and I'm like, that is not God's idea, but somehow God's like, I know, but I'll use it.

I'll I'll find a way because my spirit is alive, I'm active, I'm gonna work this thing together for the good.

Um, and that just gives us a sense of peace.

So we just happen to be born in the dispensation of grace.

So, in spite of how messy this world is, the ever-presence of the Holy Spirit in the blood of Jesus, it's not that everything is permissible, and I do think that God does He does deal with us.

I think He like I think that's a mistake to believe that God's judgment isn't real and that just because Jesus died on the cross that there's not consequence for that.

There is evidence in the New Testament of people having to deal with consequences for misappropriating the gospel.

So I'm not talking about a God who turns a blind eye to things, but what I am talking about is redemption and how God's presence and his spirit is still able to use it.

Like there's not a there's not a dead end when it comes to Jesus.

And scripture even in the New Testament, it might even be Hebrews, honestly.

I need to get better at this, but uh talks about discipline, like what what what father doesn't discipline their child, like count at joy when you're being disciplined because that means that God's not done with you, he's got a purpose for you and all that.

So he uses all of it for sure.

Speaking of preaching, um what where did this idea come from?

I know sometimes we see in we see even in the New Testament Jesus going into the synagogue and reading some of the Old Testament scrolls, but I I feel like it's become such a a mainstay or a focal point of the modern day worship service, right?

Uh, you know, Paul goes in and and has debates and stuff with people and with some of the priests, and that was even speaking of priests, their some of their roles became interpreting the law, right?

And so I'm sure there was some form of of rhetoric that went along with that.

But anyways, it's kind of it's kind of morphed into something else where it's it's a focal point of our service, yes, so to speak.

So do you have any history on that?

I do.

This is I love talking about this, man.

I'm gonna I'm gonna adjust the microphone because I get excited about this.

All right.

So, you know, we have everything for me, you know, uh, if if you haven't, if you haven't noticed, for me a lot of things tie back to um the beginning.

And and so in in Bible interpretation, there's this principle called the law of first mention.

Um, and and it's really just saying that the first time something is brought up or mentioned in the Bible, that's often the purest definition of it or God's original intent.

Got it.

So that's kind of like what the law of first mention is.

So I remember, man, many, many years ago, saying, okay, like kind of to your point, like, man, how did how did it get to a point with the the preaching and all that type of stuff?

I knew that God utilized um Moses and others to try to help communicate his word, but where did it all kind of evolve to where we are now?

I mean, certainly there's some liberties that we have taken in the modern day, but this is how it starts.

So, of course, you know, Moses gets the Ten Commandments, he comes down, and this is where we see for the first time like the mind and will and heart of God being communicated to masses of people.

Moses comes down from um from the mountain, he's glowing, he kind of shares with them what's going on.

Then the idea of the tabernacle is then presented to the people, and then they begin to build according to God's plan.

And so that was the first time we kind of see a spokesperson for God in that instance.

Okay, this is the mind and will of God for a group of people.

So you fast forward, the tabernacle is built, community is being developed, sacrificial systems installed, this is God dwelling with people, we're starting to get some traction.

But at that time, um they they were all living it in real time together.

So the revelation of God was being exposed to everyone.

So that community was raised in godliness together.

So then you fast forward, of course, they're in the wilderness for 40 years, they kind of missed the mark when they had an opportunity to go in.

Um, and so that first generation dies off.

And so, as um, as Joshua is now responsible for leading them into the promised land, um, and he's getting near the end of his days, he's like, Okay, guys, let's make sure we reinforce these stories because a new generation is going to come and they're not gonna know anything about this stuff.

So we got to make sure that we're repeating this because if not, we're gonna lose sight of all that God has done.

So he dies off, that full next generation dies off.

The messages don't get passed on appropriately because there's not any like worship services, there's no gatherings, it's just hoping that this guy's telling his kids and they're telling their kids and they're telling their kids.

So eventually that begins to die off, people begin to adapt to their culture, um, and so the word of God gets lost.

So the consequence for that is that God allows them to get brought off into captivity again.

So they get caught up into Babylonian captivity and the whole cycle of oppression starts all over again.

So then we get to um Nehemiah.

Nehemiah finds out about um Jerusalem, he's heartbroken.

Like, bro, I want to, and I mean, we're fast-forwarding many years, so you're tracking with me.

Um he gets to the point where, like, okay, man, we need to let's let's get back to um man, we need to restore the gates of the city.

We need to like begin to bring honor back to God's house.

So even though they were in captivity, um the the Peruvian king kind of allowed people to go back, but they had nothing to go back to.

So he takes it upon himself, goes back, let's re let's re-establish um Jerusalem as the the center place of worship.

Um, and then from there, there's a priest named Ezra.

So after the walls of the city are built and they're beginning to rebuild the temple and all these things, you had a ton of folks who had never been exposed to God's word.

So this is where it gets good.

So Nehemiah calls Ezra.

It's like, yo, Ezra, man, you you you've never forsaken the word of God, but we literally have an entire generation of people, and some would say upwards of a million Jews at this point had no concept of the law.

I mean, no concept of it.

Wow.

They were scattered away, they were now being called to come back to Jerusalem to begin to become the people group, but they had no frame of reference.

All they knew was Babylonian captivity, all they knew was was the oppression that they've experienced.

So Ezra's like, all right, cool, I'll do it.

So they built this man a pulpit.

This is all in scripture.

So they built him the very first platform, and it literally says, and he was elevated above the people so that when he was projecting his voice, he could be heard.

So from morning all the way until night, he reads the law to the people for the first time, and they break down into tears.

They all repent and they say, Yes, we will become people that live up to this word.

And that was what kicked in the whole idea of a platform being built, a preacher declaring the word of God, and people responding to it.

And so that from that point forward, that's when they begin to say, Well, let's have like regular gatherings where the word of God is going to be presented so that when generations are coming in, no longer will it exclusively just be up to the husbands and the fathers because family dynamics are different, will also make a central place where that's going to take place as well.

And that's when synagogues began to come into place and all these other things, and now we have the church.

So that's kind of how we got to where we are.

It's like Old Testament revival.

Yes, it's exactly what it was.

It's exactly what it was.

Like he he read it all day long, and they were like, I had no idea.

And for them, you would think the concept of the law, because of the way that we view the law, um, as being this restrictive, oppressive document of God trying to control people, but for them it was actually liberating because they were raised in this culture with a pantheon with many gods, you never knew if he was angry, you never knew what he wanted.

So the fact that they had a God that loved them so much that not only was he leading them from oppression from what he did with them in Egypt, what they had no clue of the ten plagues, all those miracles, they're like, God did that for us.

Wow.

They're like, they're like they're being blown away.

So for them, they're not looking at the law as this oppressive, controlling document.

They're looking at it like God loves us so much, and he's also making it clear what he wants from us and also what we can expect from him.

So that was actually liberating.

So they weren't wondering, man, it's raining today.

Is God mad?

Or it's not raining today, is God mad?

Like they were like all that superstition was thrown out the window, and they just knew this is what God wants.

God doesn't want me to murder my neighbor.

Cool, got it.

Like the it became clear to them what God wanted, and that actually was freedom.

So that's why um in Psalm 119, the longest book of the Bible, um, David writes so much about the love of oh God, your word does this for me.

It's a light unto my feet, a lamp.

Like that was powerful because now I know where I'm going.

I know what I'm supposed to do, I know what you want from me.

That was freedom, and so we should have a love for God's word the same way that they did then.

It's always it's always the the faithfulness of God ultimately, but even the remnant, you know, and Ezra, you talk about he was one guy, you know, and Nehemiah was just another guy.

And for God to for God to use that to reach potentially millions of people just shows you I know in our current setting and society, it can seem like we're just dying off by the day.

Um but as Hebrews talks about you know, don't forsake the gathering, you know, keep keep moving forward, keep press keep being faithful.

Um and so kind of to wrap up the conversation, the last thing I wanted to talk about is this concept of revival.

It seems like a it seems like sort of a man-made statement or idea.

Yeah.

Um with all really good intent.

Yep.

We we would who would not want to see a powerful move of God, right?

And you know, history tells us there there have been such things, you know, and it depending on what your interpretation of a revival is, anyways.

We're currently in a in a time where that's uh there's been news of that taking place and people are getting really excited about it.

So I kind of want to hear I don't necessarily see like scriptural backing for it other than the fact that we see God do amazing things.

I know obviously Pentecost and what we just talked about.

But what's your take on it from where we sit in 2023?

Oh man, I don't wanna I don't wanna get in trouble, but it it's it is it is what it is.

So I I think that you know there's these buzzwords within uh within our faith, and there's like this great expectation, anticipation with the best intent for like these major moves of God to to take place.

Um and and and I completely I completely get it.

Where where I feel like we can we can kind of turn it into like something that's consumeristic, is where it's like, oh man, there's a revival and we're gonna have man, we're gonna we're gonna have a a worship night and it's revival and we're gonna pray for healing and it's revival, and that certainly is an expression of it.

But but here is what true biblical revival was from the beginning all the way until now.

True biblical revival was the people of God repenting, tearing down their idols, and and and choosing to be obedient to God.

That's revival.

So then the outpouring of that certainly would be miracles.

The outpouring of that would be a move of the spirit, all those things.

I think that unfortunately what ends up happening though is when we see those instances, whether it's in the book of Acts, whether it's in other passages of scripture, or even movements that we see in the country or the globe for that matter, we can try to fast forward to let's have the move of the spirit without us removing our idols.

And sustainable revival was always meant to start with let's repent, let's pull down our idols, let's let's let the Holy Spirit do the work.

And so I think that when we look at social media and we see revivals, and it doesn't mean that those things aren't happening, but there is no revival without repentance.

And so what repentance is, it's it's the it's the self-awareness that starts with at an individual level that then becomes contagious, that then spreads out into a community, and that's where the presence of God is able to move and have powerful moments.

So for me, it's just making sure that not to put this into a system, but making sure that the adequate agreements are there.

To be quite candid with you, when I have seen um some of the powerful revivals and moments that have been um that have been taking place specifically over the past couple of months, let's say, and I'm speaking specifically here in the West, um, to me, I'm like, man, this is powerful, but this is also the type of things that happens every Sunday.

It's just extended worship.

It's it's people coming in.

It's I get it, so it's pulling, it's like no egos and all those type of things, but for me, I'm like, these things happen every single week.

Revival happens every time a person repents and says, Lord, I'm no longer gonna live on my own terms.

And so I think that we have to stop making revival this grandiose major moment that's gonna get captured and broadcast on social media and recognize that the Bible says that heaven celebrates at the sign of one sinner coming to repentance.

Yeah, that's revival.

Yeah.

So I think it's we just have to recalibrate to have a biblical definition of it, and then through that, that's when we begin to see movements take place that can then spark into something that that transcends a moment.

But to me, I'm I'm in agreement with those things, but we have to make sure that it includes repentance, tear it down idols, and and making room for the Holy Spirit.

And so it doesn't mean those things aren't happening, that's not what I'm saying.

But unfortunately, we don't talk about those things.

We only talk about look at the packed room, look at the people crying, look at that, and that's that's fine.

But again, that happens every Sunday, that happens all the time.

True revival is repentance, true revival is tearing down those strongholds, those things that we've exalted above God, and then the byproduct of that is like these radical movements that then result in crazy miracles and things like that.

I'll I'll say it this way, man, and and I'm excited about later this year we're gonna be doing a series on idolatry called Strange Fire, man, and I'm I'm pumped about it because I and I'll probably share this story um in there, but I'll just give you this as a as a reference point.

Um I remember talking with um just varying people that talked about how like man when you go to these other countries, um how there's like these massive miracles that take place.

Like I've I've seen them, I've traveled to Africa, I've seen when we've gone to Costa Rica, there's areas that I've gone to where there's such a there's such a fire for God and a faith for God that you see literal miracles.

And again, it doesn't mean that these things don't happen in America, but what what the distinction, and I heard uh I heard like this this elder articulate it beautifully.

He said, you know, the reason why um you see these things expressed in some of these other nations is because there's not as many idols that the enemy can hide in.

So when you get to some of these other countries and they have nothing else, they don't have the internet, they don't have television, they don't have sports, they don't have all these other things that distract them.

All they have is God and there's a fervency, so the enemy can't utilize these things that are distractions, so there are more miracles that tend to take place.

But when you get over to America, and I heard this guy say this, and he came from a land that was known for idolatry, he said, Man, America has so many idols.

And initially people were like, bro, you come from a place where there's literally like millions of idols.

He said, No.

He said, Those things are there, but those are clearly false gods.

He said, The problem with America is that we have so many idols that we don't even recognize the enemy is using these things as distractions.

So we wouldn't recognize a true revival because we still worship at the altar of our television, we worship at the altar of our social media, and the enemy is able to use those things in such a conniving way that that they distract us not only from the enemy's activity, but inviting God into it.

And so what I'm looking to do in this series is to really evaluate what our idols and what are those things that the enemy is using that's distracting true revival in our lives.

We can so easily brush it off too, like, oh, it's just it's just a post or it's just a show or whatever.

So that's gonna be interesting.

Yeah, the enemy hides in the things that um that distract us, and we are maybe be we don't even realize that those could be things that are preventing revival in our own homes.

It's gonna we're gonna step on some toes, brother.

We're gonna have fun though.

Let's do it.

Well, uh we were gonna talk about Melchizedek, but we just didn't get there.

So we have something to talk about.

We'll talk about them next week, baby.

We'll talk about it on the next one.

So, Pastor Keith, thanks so much uh for joining us again.

And uh you guys make sure that you stay plugged in, stay connected to uh After the Message here on our podcast, and we'll be back next week to talk a little bit more about Hebrews.

Absolutely.

Thank you, Papa Nate.

Yes, sir.

Thank you for joining us for After the Message.

To learn more about Celebration Church here in Orlando, you can follow us on social media under the handle at Celebration ORL or visit our website at celebrationorl.org.