After the Message | Reclaim | Week 1

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Yes.

You are listening to After the Message on the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

And this segment is just a conversation from the previous Sunday's sermon.

And we hope that it encourages you to continue the conversation in your own circles.

Whether you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or you're watching on YouTube, welcome.

So glad that you are joining us.

Pastor Keith, how are you, my friend?

I'm great.

Nate, you do that so well.

I'm just I was just watching the way you did that delivery.

It's so on point, it's so authentic.

Um, it makes me feel comfortable.

I'm glad to be here.

Well, good.

That's what four years of uh high school news will do.

It'll it'll teach you how to do those little intros.

Who says you can't use it when you get older in life?

That's right.

Who knew that the sports section of my high school news career was training me for ministry?

Come on.

He uses it all, man.

We're gonna go ahead and do an altar call right here, right now.

Come on.

I'll be the first one there.

What's um we were talking before we came on air, and we were trying to remember and reflect on the last after the message, which by the way, this is a new season.

The last one was kind of just a one-off where we thought we need to talk about this a little bit more.

And the last one we were in our devoted series and we were talking about the word of God, and you're like, okay, unpacking the Bible in 30 to 35 with you preaching most likely 40 to 45 minutes.

42.

Okay, 42.

Um It's not gonna we're not gonna be able to cover everything, and so I think the conversation was was warranted, but um that was what, January, end of January?

Yep.

What's we're post Easter already?

So what's been going on in your life?

Share a little bit before we get into the conversation.

What hasn't?

It's um it's been a very like I'm I'm trying to get out of saying the word busy because I think that sometimes we we worship at the altar of busyness and that doesn't necessarily communicate anything.

So I would say it's been a it's been a very fruitful and productive first quarter of the year.

Um so whether it be with church and just what I truly believe God's doing in our community and moving forward in that, whether it's with me being in school and moving forward and getting closer to being done with that season, somebody say praise the Lord for that.

Um so it's just a lot of activity, but all the activity has been meaningful.

Like I don't feel like anything has been wasted, um, but it does all converge at once at different points, and you're like trying your best to get through it.

But it's been amazing, man.

It's been very productive.

I feel like I'm growing like crazy and learning like crazy.

Um, but I'm also recognizing that that June is coming, and we know what happens in June, don't we, Nate?

We do.

What happens in June, Nate?

Uh you're gone.

That's right.

Yes, June is coming for sure.

But we're in April right now, so let's uh let's stick to that.

Um I if I recall when we were planning as a staff last year, we were gonna do a series on Ezekiel around this time.

Is that correct?

I believe you're right.

Oh, it was Elijah.

Elijah.

Like Elijah.

Like Ezekiel.

Vinny just rolled his eyes, like, why in the world would we ever do a series on Ezekiel?

Elijah.

Yes.

Been a long week for me as well.

Yes.

Um we're gonna do a series on Elijah, and we have morphed that into which I think we should still do somewhere down the road, but we're doing this series called Reclaim.

Yep.

And the premise for that is Christianity has unfortunately evolved into many different interpretations, but one overarching, one general one, and a or a couple general ones that you spoke about even yesterday was it's in how it's influenced in politics has kind of morphed with um the religious side of it.

So, anyways, what led us here?

What what kind of prompted you to go?

You're we're changing an entire series, right?

Something that was near and dear, obviously, or you wouldn't have brought it up, but what kind of made the call for you in your heart to say, no, actually we're gonna go this route?

Well, there's a couple of things, man.

That's a great question.

Um every every year, and what I love about our our staff is that we we collaborate really, really well.

Um, and so I think when we were really dreaming about this year and looking at like for me, coming from the background of education, for me, I I look at things through the lens of just academically, in a sense of like you start the year off this way, and by the end of the year, hopefully, these are some things that you've learned.

And so as I begin to pray about okay, God, what is it that you want us to lead our church through for the year that ultimately will typically produce a theme?

So this year rooted in rising.

So, okay, that's the theme.

So we're hoping that this is going to be a year of people understanding the importance of sowing and then the harvest, the work that goes into it.

So it's it's still tightly connected to like spiritual disciplines and personal responsibility in our faith.

So Elijah is an incredible character because he shows us the highs and lows of our beliefs, of trusting God, doing incredible things, but also being fearful, running from your calling, being depressed.

Like so I felt like he encapsulated so much, and so that still is near and dear to my heart.

But when I began to look at the year and look at the season we were in coming out of an incredible Easter season, at least when we were kind of talking about this, and I began to kind of consider okay, this is a journey we're on, and be quite candid, this isn't an election year.

So what I have seen over the past, I would say, eight years of ministry, particularly, the election cycle, there just there's a shroud that that I've just sensed probably ever since 2016.

Like it just it culture shifts and it's not getting any better, if if if I could be quite candid.

So I knew that this is some stuff that's on my heart, but I'm also looking at what do I feel is the needs of our church, what's the need of our community, and just kind of what am I sensing in culture overall?

And so I began to look at okay, like when I have conversations with people and we tell them, like, hey, I'm a Christian, you often get people trying to figure out, like, okay, like, what does that mean?

What what kind of a Christian are you?

Are and and I get it, there's different denominations, different belief systems, but that's not what they're asking.

They're asking, like, hey, are you one of those Christians that have intertwined your politics into your faith and now that's it?

Are you one of those Christians that believe that that everything needs to go through America and that's the filter of it?

So those are bigger issues that I think we need to address.

I'm not talking about if you believe in certain little nuances when it comes to your denomination.

I'm talking about these massive cultural buckets that can be incredible hindrances to people that are just trying to find Jesus.

And so the reason why those two things are so important to me is because I think they complicate the cross.

That whenever you have a belief system that you put something in front of the cross, it's become an idol and now it's become a hurdle.

So I felt like we needed to shift the series to reclaim, like, hey, let's get these hurdles out the way.

Be a Democrat, be a Republican, love America, all those things, but let's not make those hurdles.

Those none of those things were in front of the cross.

So let's make sure we we get back to the cross and then we can have discussions after that.

So I think considering the culture, it just kind of shifted for me to make sure that we had a place where we could address that.

You you brought up the fact that this was inspired really by a book that you're reading by John Mark Comer.

Uh Practicing the Way.

Yeah, practicing the way, yes.

Or a book that you've already read.

Um Does he does he touch on this at all at as far as the political national dynamic, or does he mainly I haven't read, so I'm just curious, or does he mainly kind of stick to the uh just the practice of being a student of Jesus?

Or does he does he help us apply that to what you're talking about right here?

No, he he doesn't really hit on that specifically.

He he infers it at certain moments as like maybe like outliers or examples, yeah.

But he doesn't zero in on it to the degree that I do.

Now, he's been in ministry for many years.

He was pastoring a church in Oregon and and which was very secular, so he's kind of navigated through a lot of nuances that I think uh He may be ahead of the game.

Yeah, he's he's ahead of the game.

So I think he's probably past this stuff.

Um, but the influence of this and and there's other people that have done it, but like I really love his his writing and his approach is that it's it's a very um, I will say a very approachable way to taking this ancient process of following Jesus.

What does it mean to be a disciple, but contextualizing it in a in a modern culture?

And so for me, I think that's beautiful.

One of the things that I have shared, I think, at least with staff, and and you know, for people who are getting this on after the message first, you'll hear me say this now, and then you'll hear me say it probably later um when we're doing our series on Corinth.

But I remember when I went to Greece last year and and being in Athens, and the beautiful thing about that city is you're you're you're there at at monuments that are thousands of years old, but while you're there on these mountaintops and looking at this beautiful relics and things that are there, you can also see where there's restaurants, you can see where there's roads that have been paved.

So you're able to see where the historical um context has been preserved, but it's also still a modern city.

And so that illustration kind of helped me to think about what does it mean to be a follower of Christ?

Like it's it's something that's ancient and has thousands of years of history attached to it, but yet there's still there's still red lights.

We have we have phones now, we have airplanes.

So how do I take this ancient concept and integrate it into a modern world?

I think John Mark does a phenomenal job at bringing those two together.

Yeah, and if I'm honest, that's the crux of that's the crossroads of our faith, I think, because we are trying to do such a difficult thing.

And what we typically do is we read 21st century into first century instead of okay, how does first century apply?

You know, and that's where I think the the mistakes are made and where biblical illiteracy comes into play, and now we do have all of these different sects of Christianity, and that's why people are coming up to you on the street going, Okay, what kind of Christian are you?

1000%.

And speaking of that word, you touched on the history of that a little bit, but I think there's more to kind of expound on it.

And I think the first question that popped into my mind when you were talking about Christian, I guess in chronological order being mentioned the first time uh in Acts in Antioch, why that was such a negative connotation.

Because you were saying, Oh, there goes those people who are showing love to one another, or there go those those people who are helping, you know, women be free and equal, like but it was almost in jest, or those people were saying it um sarcastically, right?

So so why would that be negative in that culture and society?

Because like the the the one thing that I think that we lose sight of is that when we were, and for me, everything goes back to Genesis because Genesis kind of gives us a glimpse of God's original intent.

Yeah.

So when you go back to Genesis and you see God's original intent of us living in this Edenic environment in fellowship with God, what I like to call unbroken fellowship with God and with one another.

That's ultimately what the vision was to be images of God and it's supposed to be beautiful.

Naturally, sin comes into the picture, and as a result of that, there's a consequence, and the consequence then begins to get spelled out.

And that part of it is man, you're gonna work from the sweat of the ground, till the ground, like it's gonna be labor, there's gonna be works.

All these things begin to come a part of the equation, but then also we see something birthed that was never meant to be God's original intent, and that's hierarchy.

That's where it's like, okay, um, man, you're gonna be the head, woman, you're gonna have to endure some suffering.

This is what that's gonna look like.

And so it was meant to say, okay, because there's chaos now, we have to have some measure of order.

And so that order was okay, this is what a man's role is, this is what a woman's role is.

I still believe that some of that stuff is still largely true, so so no one doesn't hear something I'm not saying.

But what ended up happening is the world began to create systems of hierarchy, of okay, this person is better than this person.

Now we're not talking about roles, we're talking about value.

So now this person is better than this person, this person's expression is more superior than that person's, and that just continued to perpetuate more systems and more systems and more systems.

And so by the time we get to um Antioch, and not just Antioch, but just that whole world, it was very strong systems of slaves and free.

It's a caste system, those who have, those who have not.

Women and children were not even considered countable, which is why even in the gospels, they're not even mentioned when they're talking about gatherings with Jesus.

It was like, oh, the 5,000 men.

Yeah, there are women and children there, but we don't even count them.

That's just part of the culture there.

It was just like you don't even matter when the children came to Jesus and they're like, yo, what are y'all doing here?

Y'all aren't supposed to be here.

And he's like, No, let the children come.

That was he was breaking through a system that was meant to say, like, hey, there's a place where a child stays, there's a place where women stay, and there's a place for the men.

So so when you have this system that was all birthed out of the consequence of sin, but then Jesus begins to bring equality through the cross and saying, No, we're all equal at the foot of the cross.

So the Christians became the first expressed unified belief system that you began to see that the women could actually sit and learn and listen with the men.

It was the first belief system where you started seeing equality, and even though they were still entrenched in the net of the system, Christians were living counter to the culture.

So there are still moments where you're still kind of bound to the system because it's the world we live in, but they were trying to push against it as much as possible.

So when people are observing on the outside looking in, they're like, Man, what are who are these people that that were seeing Jews and Gentiles sitting and eating together?

That was completely unheard of.

What are we what are we doing?

And so when they started seeing unity, and the Bible often says in the book of Acts, they shared and had all things in common.

That is something we can gloss over, but it's such a big deal because they never had things in common.

So when people would see it, because they don't understand it, when you don't understand something, make fun of it.

You make fun of it.

And that was the way that it was approached.

It was like those people who are practicing the way, which is what it was referred to initially, and then it was like, okay, they're little Christ.

So it's almost like um I have a son, Keith, Keith Jr.

And so in our family, whenever you have a child that's named after you, it doesn't matter.

They're always gonna just call so what they would call him, instead of Keith Jr., they call him Lil Keith.

That's just what it is, Lil Keith.

And it's not meant to be derogatory, at least in our family context, but for that culture, it was meant to say, Oh, that's just little Christ.

And you know how it turned out for him, right?

It's it's these aimless people, it's almost weird, they're they're gathering together, they're equality, it's it's all this unity.

That's those Christians, man, just leave them alone, it'll die out eventually.

So that was kind of the context of it.

You also in that same vein talked about the distinction between disciple and Christian.

And you know, you would think that those would be synonymous with one another, but I feel like there's a movement in the contemporary church now, which is a good thing to kind of reclaim what it means to follow Jesus and to actually be a disciple, and it goes it goes beyond the spiritual discipline and stuff, right?

Like those things are important to express or to you know, they're means of grace for us to be able to have the relationship with Jesus, but it does start with relationship.

And even in a comment earlier, you were talking about the ancient practice of a student and a rabbi.

Is there any more that you can expound on that, you know, to help us understand?

Because we think a student now, it's like, okay, I send my kid, he's there from you know eight to two, then he comes home.

So what's the difference between now and today, I guess?

Man, that's that's great.

So and that time, you know, there so naturally we're dealing with culture now.

Right.

So so I realize that we're not trying to necessarily say, everybody stop sending your kids to school, send them to the church, and like so and I get it, but but here was the original context.

The original context was like in the in the Jewish culture, they were trained in the Torah, they were trained in in the Word of God.

That was just because that's what governed them as a people group, it's also what governed their faith.

So they were very integrated in a sense of how it was all connected.

But ultimately, what it was is they were raised in that up and they went to school around the age of five, and they went up until around the time they were 12.

And then from the ones who were like who wanted to pursue further, they would then go to the rabbi school.

Okay, and they would sit with the rabbi from the ages of 12 until 17.

After that, they had a choice to make.

That choice was either I'm gonna go into the family business, um, which is, you know, fishermen, you know, carpentry, whatever.

You go into the family business, you live your life, and you continue to live in that way.

But then there was a select few that felt called into this rabbi apprenticeship journey.

And then what would happen for them is that they would find a rabbi that they've identified with and they would try to pursue him, and that rabbi would then basically test them to see, like, hey, would you be a fit student for me?

Um, because when scripture talks about when Jesus says, Take upon my yoke, it's easy and my burden is light, we do get imagery of the agrarian culture where, okay, it was talking about oxen plowing together, and that's certainly a part of it.

But what was often used by a rabbi back then is their methodology of interpreting scripture and exercising it was called a yoke.

So what they would often say is, hey, my yoke or the way that I interpret scripture is this way.

So what you would say is, hey, I want to be a part of that rabbi's yoke.

I like the way that he interprets scripture.

It's similar to when someone says, Hey, I want to be a part of that church, I like the way that they're doing whatever.

And so the student would pursue the rabbi, and then the rabbi, after testing them, he would then say, Hey, you know what?

You're permitted to be my student.

I think that you would be a good disciple.

I think that you're somebody I can work with.

Then they would spend years of that young man, because that's who it was.

That young man would leave his family and literally follow the rabbi, just follow him and follow him everywhere.

He would watch how he eats, he would watch how he spends time with his family, he would immerse himself in it like non-stop.

And then there would come a moment when that rabbi would say, Hey, your your learning season is done.

Now it's time for you to go and take the yoke that I've given you and make more disciples.

That was the way that it was always done.

So the thing that's so unique about Jesus is that when he comes on the scene, he's a rabbi.

And and and back in that time, there was no like school you had to go through in order to be verified as a rabbi.

In essence, if you went through the process of going through the rituals, you could just say, Hey, I'm a rabbi, I'm gonna begin to go and speak.

So Jesus went out and began to speak and build momentum.

But what makes what he did so unique is that instead of students pursuing him, he went to the students and said, Hey, I want you to follow me.

That was so unconventional at the time because rabbis didn't seek out students, students sought out the rabbi.

So we're seeing here this inclusive nature of Jesus saying, Hey, I want you to follow me, I want you to learn from me, and I want you to take this yoke, which is easy and light, this yoke of grace, this yoke of love, because right now the yokes that we're seeing is this yoke of bondage, and no one can live up to it and it's not producing fruit.

But I suspect that if you could take my yoke upon your life, not only will you find peace for yourself, but it will make it so much bigger because we can invite others in to be a part of what it really means to be in a relationship with God.

So that's the cultural context of what it meant when a rabbi was connected with a student, and that student would become an apprentice, like you're living the life so that you can carry on the work of your rabbi.

Okay, so I guess the tension then or the the tall task for someone like you who does this as a as a life's work is to somehow translate that Judaic tradition to now, to 2024 in America, you know, because a lot of times what w what we can see, which is again kind of going back to what I said at the beginning, gets us in this mess in the first place, is we just try and do carbon copies and they just don't fit, they don't align, and that's where the butting heads comes in with a with the contemporary church.

So I guess what's your approach to saying these are the principles that Jesus was talking about, but we don't live in Jerusalem in you know in the in AD one thirty-five or whatever.

So how do we how do we figure this out?

How do we apply this to our life?

I think it it starts with us having to unlearn religion.

I think we've we've we're all on a journey, and and hopefully for people who are truly Seeking after God, we're we're doing our best to be image bearers.

What ends up happening is the religion creates a lot of systems and expressions and denominations and traditions and all of those things aren't necessarily bad.

So for me, when it comes to scripture interpretation, there's a context, there's a culture, and then there's a principle.

So the context is why was this written?

What were their nuances around it?

What was the culture that it was written to, the original audience, the author, what were some of their what were some of the things that they were communicating?

But what is the overall principle that's being extracted from it?

So when you see someone like Jesus, because he was doing this um actively, he shows us how he does it.

So when um you take the uh the principle of the Sabbath, so you had the the religious system of, okay, like man, the the Sabbath, it's supposed to be protected.

But then you have Jesus who comes on the scene and he begins to do ministry on the Sabbath.

So now you have people that are like, wait a minute, that's that's fighting against what the what the Word of God says.

It's fighting against it.

And Jesus is like, you've missed the principle.

You're so consumed with the black and white of the letter of the law, but you've missed why that was written.

And this is why it's so important to look at context.

Because what ends up happening is we end up having an altar to a statement, but we don't understand the principle of why it was there, and that's why we have so much division now.

But Jesus, like, you missed it.

That that man was not made for Sabbath, Sabbath was meant for man.

Is it better to do good on the Sabbath or not?

So Jesus was going against their cultural nuances by helping them to understand there's a bigger principle that I want to extract.

That principle is learning to trust in God.

That's the principle.

It's expressed through Sabbath, but please understand that the principle was always trusting in God.

And so Jesus gives us a model of that, Paul gives us a model of that.

So for me, it's it's looking at the original intent, looking at the audience, looking at the context, and then saying, okay, so how does that translate to us?

What's the principle and how do we apply it?

And I think that's where you get so many different interpretations, and I and I get it.

I don't think any of us have it perfected.

I know I don't.

Um, it's something that I wrestle with quite a bit, but I'm always asking myself, what are you saying and what is the principle that needs to be extracted?

And I think that's just part of our journey.

So it's not like a real black and white answer, but I look at the way that I look at all scripture through the lens of Jesus, and then I look at the application through the early church, and then I try to pull the principles as it applies to us.

The like you said, the election is imminent, and when we're when we're in this discussion Well, here's the thing.

We can take two approaches to this, two extremes I think happen.

We can be passive or we can be bullhorn Christians, right?

And I don't necessarily think the answer is always, well, there's a balance, it's in the middle somewhere.

Like, yeah, that's true for a lot of things, but what is our approach, you know?

And maybe you're gonna get into this in week two or week three or later on down the year, but for us I see Jesus I see Jesus doing a little bit of both, and I think it depends on the situation.

But how would you encourage someone who wants to who wants to be a true disciple and they want to follow Jesus and they want to follow him with their whole heart, and they things are clashing, yeah.

Society is clashing, the the norm is clashing with that, those are the two reactions that I think can be easy to jump to.

Well, I'm just not gonna say anything or I'm not gonna do anything about it, you know.

Let them you know, let them it is what it is, let them do their thing, I'll do my thing.

Or we can start throwing stones, and that doesn't really do anything either.

So I always find myself in this tension, and maybe I'm just you're my therapist at the moment helping me out.

So man, I think um it comes down to what is our assignment, what is our requirement, and and that's something that I feel very deeply about.

So with Jesus, when he was going about and he's engaging and he's doing miracles, and we're seeing the range of emotions that he has, because Jesus shows us all that it's okay to have emotions, it's okay to have reactions to things.

But I think it's important to remember that Jesus wasn't seeking these things out, that it would be moments where he's on his journey and then he's confronted with something and then he had an adequate response to it.

Jesus was very rarely ever looking for an opportunity to correct the Pharisees, looking for an opportunity.

He wasn't even looking for opportunities to do miracles, he was just going and trying to teach the gospel, and as a result of that, people would come, he would do healings because those were expressions of it.

But Jesus wasn't looking to go and confront people.

It was always an interaction that took place after the fact.

So I think that's the first thing is that I think we have to stay on mission, and the mission is to do our best to let people know that for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

And I think that's the I think that's the message.

Now, when it comes to interacting with the world and figuring out what is our responsibility to it and what's our response to it, I I get the I get the the desire to be the bullhorn, the one who's standing on the corner, because God can use it for a person who's passing by, and maybe that's going to be a seed that can hopefully produce some measure of conviction.

And so I get it, God uses all of it.

But but what I'll say is um when you are looking at the Bible, the Bible was not written to the world, the Bible was written to the disciples of Christ.

And so now this is a conversation when we're looking at God's word and we're seeing it through the lens of so this is God communicating his heart, his mind, his will to his people.

And so it's equipping us on how to interact with the world and invite people in.

But I think sadly, we read the Bible and think that, hey, it's my responsibility to show you what God's word says about you in an effort to tear you down and make you feel condemned, when actually it's a book that's meant to equip us as believers so that we understand the love of God, the depth of God, the grace of God, also God's standards, but invite somebody into a relationship with him.

So I will say it this way I do not expect the world to look like the church.

I don't expect someone who doesn't have a relationship with Jesus to act like a Christian.

So I guess to put it bluntly, I am not surprised that the world is going to be the world because that's the Bible tells me that.

My responsibility is to reflect Christ in a way that can invite the world into something that's a little bit more deeper and profoundly more meaningful.

I think where we get lost in this nuance of politics and all the other things is that we're no different than the people who had an experience with Jesus.

And you know what it says?

It says that Jesus had to leave because they were gonna try to make him king by force.

You're like, yo, like that's that's not what I came here for.

They were gonna force him to be king.

Let's fast forward to now.

We're trying to force Jesus to become king over people who have not surrendered their lives to him.

We're trying to force him into laws, we're trying to force him into things, and we've completely lost the sight of the fact when Jesus says, My kingdom is not of this world.

No, no, but we need to, my kingdom is not of this world.

No, but we need to have all these laws that my kingdom is not of this world.

Jesus continuously tried to help his disciples to understand we're fighting against something and we have a calling and we have a place in it, but my kingdom is not of this world.

That my kingdom is something that's transcends it, and I want to invite as many people into it.

But the minute that we turn my kingdom into making me a king by force, we're no different than the Israelites back then, and it creates a messiness of control and governance and hierarchy that doesn't look like Jesus at all.

So so then how do I because we are supposed to share our faith, right?

And so what do you think what do you think is the best way to go about doing that?

Because there's a lot of arguments like people don't get saved by being nice, by because you're nice to them, right?

However, we are supposed to reflect the fruits of the spirit we're supposed to embody, those are supposed to obviously overflow from us if we are, but you know, go and tell, go and teach, you know, baptize them and then teach them what to do.

So I think a lot of people still struggle with especially in the political correctness world that we live in.

Man, what's what does God want from me?

Yeah, what's my job here?

Like, how do I be a good follower, but like you were saying, not try and not try and force someone into it.

I heard someone say once people saying you need to be saved, and then them turning around and go, from what?

I don't even know what you're talking about.

Say from what, you know, and even in your message, you talked about how even from a Christian perspective, we can be in nets that we don't even realize that that we're in.

And so I guess how do I how do I help my neighbor?

Man, that's that's a great question.

I think that there's not a one size fits all.

Okay, but what I do believe is that it begins and ends with some measure of a relationship.

I think that and that and that may be a current context, that may be a a country thing, that may be a cultural dynamic that you know the methods can change depending on where you are.

The message remains the same.

But I think the method can vary depending on relationships.

So I'll I'll say that helping your neighbor, it's it starts with a relationship.

It starts with just speaking to them, being kind to them, and and inviting them over for a meal.

And and hospitality was one of the key ways that Jesus would bring transformation into people's lives.

It was very rarely just a show up and let me preach this message to you, but it was relationship, it was hospitality sitting at the meals.

And so even when we see instances of him sitting with sinners and people are like, yo, what is he doing there?

He's creating relationship.

And then as he's preaching the message of the gospel and the varying things he talks about, they know that he's speaking from a place of love and authenticity because there's hospitality and there's relationship there.

I think hospitality has gotten lost amongst us as a culture and as a people group.

And so I think we're jumping into the message without first establishing some measure of a relationship that shows them that I genuinely care about you.

I'm not trying to control you, I'm not even here to judge your life.

That's not what I'm here to do.

What I'm trying to do is invite you into something that is so much deeper, but it has to start with you first recognizing before they can believe in a God that they can't see, they have to believe in the God that they see in you.

And if I'm not demonstrating that well enough, then if you're an expression of that, what about your life makes me want to be connected to a divine being that's influencing you.

I think it just starts with so not just being passive, but I think it meant it starts with being hospitable and being relational, and then through that you can build a relationship that can bear the weight of the truth.

I think one of the things that you and I both can probably agree to with being married to passionate women, um, is that there's a time and place for everything.

There's a time and place for certain conversations.

We know that even in our day-to-day relationships, that you recognize, like, hey, is this the best time to bring up this subject?

Is this the best way to bring it up?

Because I want to make sure that I'm engaging you in a way that you can actually hear and receive it instead of me just speaking because I want to say it, but it goes on deaf ears.

If that's how it is in our relationships of people that we love and we see every day, how much more should it be within stranger who has heard nothing but condemnation, they're not good enough, they're going to hell, and then you just show up and try to perpetuate that?

What if we began to show them dignity and love and let them know that God loves them, and in that love, He wants to lead them to something greater?

So it's and because as you mentioned Sunday, the message in and of itself doesn't always um it's it's not always the most comforting thing for someone to hear right off the so for example your third point embrace the sacrifice.

So if I tell somebody, hey, you're gonna have to sacrifice a lot for this, what do you what do you say?

You in?

Are you in?

You know what I mean?

So but I think you hit something on the head there with developing that, cultivating that, the hospitality at the table is a series that you can find on YouTube from one of our previous uh from one of our previous series last year where we talked about this stuff.

Um and so there's another thing too that's maybe not in a pluralistic society the most popular uh thing that we can teach.

And it sometimes can come off as my way or the highway, and it's literally the phrase the way, you know, Jesus saying, I am the way, the truth, the life.

And if we come with that out out the gate, we may be fighting a losing battle, and obviously the Holy Spirit's the Holy Spirit, and he'll do what he does, and all that stuff.

But I kind of want you to put maybe maybe the the therapist hat on for a little bit, and why do why do we have trouble with that exclusivity of that statement just as human beings?

Like, why don't we like the fact that there is one way?

I was kind of even thinking about this the other day, like there's only one way to breathe, and that's with oxygen.

Right.

So why would I say, no, I actually want to do it with carbon dioxide?

So it's not a bad thing, but for whatever reason, that's what the world likes to that's one of the things that the world likes to chalk up against us to say, see how loving is that?

You're saying that there's only one way to eternal life, or there's one way to happiness, right?

Yeah, but what is it about humanity that we don't like it when that when that's said?

Man, I think it I don't I like there's a there's this one one of these scenarios that I often think about, because again, goes back to Genesis, it's the it's the chicken and egg scenario.

And because God has hardwired into our beings the ability to choose, so I I get that, and I appreciate that we're not like robots that really don't have any ability to choose, and so I I appreciate that.

But I think that there's there's this rebellious dynamic that just is hardwired into us, and I don't know if that was there, the rebellious side, because a lot of times when you when you read from a scholarly account of the events of of Genesis, they'll say when Adam and Eve rebelled against God.

So I'm like, okay, like where'd that come from?

You know, like the the the serpent shows up and presents an option to them, and there's and it's and it's ultimately a choice.

Look, you can define things on your own terms, um, or you can trust God.

And and and there was something hardwired in Adam and Eve, like, yeah, let's just go figure this out.

Let's go see what's behind door number two.

So I don't know what in our human conditioning that just has this craving of wanting to figure things out on our own.

And it's pretty much there from infancy all the way up until even now in full adulthood.

There's something inside of us, and and I wish I could, I wish I could pinpoint it in such a psychological way that made sense of it, but I can't.

What I could tell you is I think all of us have a measure of this journey that we're on.

And so ultimately what will what you'll learn in like this thing called internal family systems, like it's the way that we're wired internally.

There is these different buckets that we go through.

And one of those is the the the infant where there's a dependency, and and then you get into this adolescent field where you become like like you begin to recognize I can stand on my own.

I don't I don't need my my I can eat on my own, either I'm hungry or I'm not.

Um, and then you get to the rebellious teen years, and the rebellious teen years are I want to go against everything that's in front of me.

And then you hopefully get to the place of an adult, and true adulthood and maturity is being able to accept, like, hey, there are some things that are better than my plan, and learning to be at o okay with that.

I think for many of us, we we get stuck in that rebellious teenage stage of us.

And what ends up happening is we we have this level of cynicism and this desire of control.

And think about when you were a teenager.

I think about when I was a teenager, it didn't matter what my parents said to me, I felt like I had a better plan.

Yeah.

And I think what ends up happening is as we mature, you begin to get to a place where you're like, hey, you know what?

That is a good idea.

I I I actually prefer that better.

There's something inside of us which I think is what scripture would define as iniquity and sin that keeps us from wanting to truly live a life that's surrendered to God.

But once we are exposed to the love of God and recognize that that me giving of myself doesn't mean I'm losing myself, but I'm actually gaining peace and clarity and hope.

It's not that I'm a mindless robot, I'm still a human being that has to make choices every day, but I'm making a choice for life instead of trying to figure things out on my own.

But I I don't know why that's there, but I do know that there's a solution on how we can get out of it.

Yeah.

Amen to that.

For someone who's maybe kind of on the fringe of this or watching the series from a distance or listening to the podcast a little bit, you know, we have a couple more weeks of of the reclaim series particular in in the preparation for this, without giving spoilers about what you're gonna talk about.

Why does someone need to stick around?

What what is what is someone gonna be able to hopefully walk away with after this series?

Or at least what next step are they gonna be able to confidently know, like, okay, this is this is what I need to do.

This is this is the direction I need to go in.

Yeah.

Um I think what I'm hoping we can do on this series is get as close to a pure view of Jesus as humanly possible.

Because I think that many people it's hard for them to see Jesus because the Christian is standing in the way.

And so what I I want to take us on a journey of is stripping away all the traditions, all the stuff, and allowing people to just have a glimpse of Jesus.

And this is what I believe, Nate.

I believe that if people can truly have an encounter with Jesus, it changes everything.

And it's from that place everything else begins to make sense.

So next week and the week beyond that, it's doing our best to still strip away a lot of the religiosity that we've been exposed to, and to hopefully allow us to have a moment that I believe that that Zacchaeus beautifully encapsulates as when he saw Jesus and Jesus saw him.

And when he saw Jesus and Jesus saw him, it changed everything.

Then giving wasn't a big deal.

Yeah, then serving's not a big deal because I see it.

I think a lot of times we don't see Jesus, so all we're doing is trying to have acts and behaviors that aren't a reflection of relationship and revelation, and that's what becomes arduous, and that's no different than when Jesus was like the yoke of the Pharisees.

But when you have an encounter with God, you are willing to give up everything because you see that there's so much more ahead of us.

So I would say stick around because hopefully each week we're gonna peel the layers away and allow you to see Jesus.

I'm not trying to get you to see celebration, I'm not trying to get you to see me.

I just want to do our best to help people see Jesus.

That's great.

Any uh any final thoughts or or words before we conclude our first episode of this new season of After the Message?

Man, um I don't know.

I think I'm just this past two-year journey for me with being exposed to so many different people, spending a lot of time in Greece, and just being exposed to different cultures, I have such a heart for people to get back to just loving God.

And I and I think that that's the remedy.

And and what I shared at the end of the message this week with the 63% that are Christian versus the 4% that are disciples.

Um my my heart's desire is that we could see the value of being a true disciple and recognizing that yes, you are giving of everything, but you are gaining so much more.

There's there's a parable that that Jesus shares that I think is really meaningful.

And it's the story of this man who's goes out into the fields and he finds a treasure in the ground.

So he's like, yo, like this isn't my land, but there's a treasure here.

But to buy this land, it's gonna cost me everything that I have.

But I know that in this ground is more than everything that I have.

So what scripture says is that he goes back, he sells everything that he has so that he can buy the land.

But when he bought the land, he was able to unearth the treasure that allowed him to produce more than he ever had before.

That's what I think this journey with being a follower of Jesus is.

It's recognizing that I'm investing in something that's so much more, but it's gonna require me to give up what I currently have, but what I'm gonna get is gonna produce so much more fruit.

And so I think there will be a faith factor, there will be a trust factor, but it was always going to be worth it.

Amen.

Pastor Keith, as always, appreciate your time.

Absolutely.

And uh, if you are in the Orlando area, we'll see you hopefully this Sunday at either 9 or 10 30 a.m.

at the Orlando Museum of Art.

But uh, if you're not, be sure to stick around on YouTube or on uh your whatever podcast preference you like for after the message as we continue.

Let's go, man.

I love it.

Thank you for joining us to learn more about Celebration Orlando, a church devoted to reaching the lost, equipping the fountain, and helping the hurting.

Follow us on social media using the handle at celebrationorl or visit our website, celebration.

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