Marriage Night | Dr. David Lawson and Dr. Tiffany Jones

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One of my favorite passages in the Old Testament is actually be still and know that I am God.

And I think it's often only in the stillness that we do know that.

And so before we began tonight, I wanted to be a little still and begin the process and the journey that way.

I don't know if we need to introduce ourselves.

Do you think we need to?

What are you thinking?

I yeah, okay, a little bit of snippet.

Why don't you introduce yourself?

You go first, Tiff.

Oh, okay.

Good evening, everyone.

Uh, we're so excited to be here tonight.

Um, I'm Dr.

Tiffany Jones, and I have been actually working in the mental health field now for about 13 years as a therapist.

I am the director at Renew Counseling here in town.

And um, through a long series and long journey of my own, I ended up during the pandemic actually going back to get my doctorate.

And because I was like, if we can't go anywhere or do anything, I'm going to have something to show for this at the end of it.

So I crammed a doctorate in way too short of a time period.

But anyway, um, and I've been fortunate I'm in my second year now of full-time uh teaching at Southeastern University where Dr.

Lawson is the director of the counseling program there.

So we have the privilege of getting to actually teach people how to be great counselors, and so it's a really cool place to be.

It's a really cool way to get to experience kind of everything that I've learned and that has transformed my life.

I do have a background, I was on staff at a church for several years back in the day, and so I've kind of grown up in that space and have walked alongside of uh a church staff and seen kind of that process.

So I'm super passionate about bridging the gap between the church and mental health because I do feel like there's a pretty big gap there often.

And so um anyway, we're super excited to be here with you guys, but that's sort of a very quick snippet of my background.

Snippet.

I'm David Lawson.

I actually grew up in a Southern Gospel quartet family.

We sang all over the southeastern part of the United States, and so I was on stage before I should have been on stage.

I was playing keyboards before I should have been playing keyboards, and I was doing a lot of things I shouldn't have been doing because I was probably too young.

And and yet I was.

That's where I was.

I grew up on stage in the church.

I wound up going and getting my master's and doctorate in California, coming back to University of Virginia, and then coming down here.

I've been teaching for almost 30 years, 30 years at this point, and I've been seeing clients for 40.

So it's uh he old.

I'm starting to get there.

I'm starting to get there.

I am.

Uh it's a it's a it's a really good, it's a really good thing.

I actually, you know, as I age, I I I'm smarter than I was like 20 years ago, and so what energy that I do have, I'm more efficient with it.

So, you know, I I just I I just that's what I say to people.

I'm like, I like this.

I actually I have less energy, but boy, do I use it more effectively than I do this.

So it's part of the smart part, you know.

It's like use that wisdom for what you can.

I I I I've worn multiple hats throughout the course of my life.

I've been a pastor, I I loved that opportunity, I loved that time period.

It was a great, uh, wonderful time.

I've been a psychologist for years and years.

I've been a teacher and professor.

I've been a father.

I have four children.

Uh I homeschooled a number of my kids, and so I loved that time period of my life also.

So I also have a lot of energy, so I can bring that into a process.

And so that's been my that's been my life.

Uh I've been married now 30, oh dear Jesus.

32 years.

32 years.

I won't tell anybody.

Please, please don't tell anybody.

That would be horrible.

It's a this is being recorded, so it's it's on recording.

Wonderful.

Anyway, um, so I I I I think part of what I is so significant to me, I said this in the church service on Sunday.

I I really do believe that God created us to have an incredible life.

And far too often in the Christian community, we sort of grind through the process of life.

We're not living abundantly, we're not living joyously, we're not living in ways that often really the things that you want to see and you want to have in your life, we're not living that way.

And then it doesn't need necessarily, there's a ton of research on this, it doesn't need a lot of money, it doesn't need, it just needs something else.

And so the question is, what is it that you need?

And it's not just Jesus, you know, that's the Sunday school answer for everything.

It was either Jesus, Satan, or the Bible.

And so you answered everything growing up.

That was my three answers.

It was Jesus, Satan, or the Bible, and you had a one in three chance of guessing it correctly.

But in this case, there's something else.

And Jesus does this over and over again with the disciples and with the people around him.

He's very, very careful about what he says and what he does.

He's constantly challenging them to be reflective and to think he does.

He's got a group of people as he's coming down off the mountain when he's giving the Beatitudes, you know, in Matthew.

He's coming off the mountain, and he's got a group of people saying, Hey, I want to follow you.

And they're like, Yeah, I want to follow you, but you know, I've got I've got a plot of land to go look at.

And she's like, Wow, you got you need to go check that land out.

Space.

We didn't have enough space.

And so Jesus is constantly challenging them.

And I think part of a relationship is that challenge there is often, as we age, not space for each other.

For ourselves, for the relationship.

And so tonight, I think some of what we're going to try to do is help you understand what that would look like.

What would it look like to actually take some space and do some work on that?

So we'll go to slide one, if we could.

Next one?

Okay, there we go.

So this is a really, really busy slide, it is, but that's how my mind works.

Very busy slides.

So just be just be aware of that.

And and I what I'm going to do is talk about this as a relational context.

Tiff's going to take over in just a little bit, and so she's going to be talking about a whole series of other things.

But this is my sort of introduction.

And I would be remiss to say this.

I really, really, really want to honor one additional thing.

Relationships are difficult, they're painful, they're absolutely important.

I'm absolutely a supporter of them.

And there are moments where I will tell people this relationship is just so unhealthy, it's not working.

And that's hard to hear as a Christian because I'm absolutely for relationships.

The answer is whenever you see and experience abuse, I need you to hear that God does not support that in any way, in any shape, and in any form.

And far too often the Christian community has been the least likely to confront that in relationships.

And whether that's a temporary separation or an ultimate separation, no one deserves that.

God weeps for that.

And so, whether male or female, if you are in a relationship that is abusive, never, never, never continue to just sit and take it.

Find the support that you need.

Find the community that you need.

And I just want to honor that because far too often we don't talk about that piece, the dark side of relationships, relational abuse.

And I want to honor that because you know what?

We're Christians, we can handle it.

And the people that are the abusers need help too.

They need a different type of help, but they need help.

And so I want to begin by honoring that.

And I didn't want to I didn't want to go any further without saying that because I don't want us to say, hey, you know what?

Every relationship, every boy, there are some relationships.

I've literally sat with couples and I said, you know what, this needs to end.

This is not what God designed.

You either really, really, really need to do something different, or it needs to end.

And I hate saying that.

I don't want to say that.

But I will.

Relationships are filled with opportunities.

And some of those opportunities I tried to sort of map out up here.

How do we actually connect as a couple?

And connection is built through a number of different processes.

The first process that we use to build relationships is actually experience.

And so when you do things together, the beautiful thing is you are building the connections of the relationship.

That relationship is deepening.

Any experience that you have, showing up to church on Wednesday night, that's an experience.

That deepens the relationship.

It's shared between the two of you, and that becomes something that can deepen the relationship itself.

So experience is sort of the first area that I want to say.

Conflict.

Believe it or not, conflict and healthy conflict is not bad.

We're going to talk about conflict in a healthy way.

Conflict is not bad.

Did you know, according to research, 80% of all issues that couples fight about never get resolved.

They just, in a healthy way, hold space and tension for each other, despite the fact that they can't agree.

80%.

We've done tons of research over the years.

It's okay.

Conflict is not bad if it's done well.

And so conflict is another opportunity to deepen the relationship in a way that makes it healthy, makes you sort of come together.

It's like, hey, you're not going to leave me if we fight.

Hey, I can learn to trust you even if we disagree.

And those are the things that actually are very, very significant.

Conflict often is one of those areas where I think a lot of couples get really, really anxious about because they've seen unhealthy conflict so much.

We've seen it on TV, we've seen it in our families, we've seen it in our cultures, and the reality is there is a healthy way of fighting, and we're going to teach you how to do that.

The third area is emotional, areas in which it's not just conflict like anger or things like that.

It's also emotional things, happiness, joy, sadness, sorrow.

Every experience.

There's a death in the family, you're going through that emotionally together, that deepens the relationship.

Every moment has an opportunity to deepen the relationship.

And emotional issues help build those bonds of that relationship.

Cognitive issues where you think about things, whether it's a Bible study, whether it's a book, maybe just reading stuff for fun.

I mean, I don't know what you think about Harry Potter here, but you know, anyway, some people are against it, some people are for it.

Anyway, but it's like mind candy for me.

It's like little kid mind candy.

I'm like eating candy, and I'm like, oh yes.

And so my wife and I just read them together just for fun.

And it's like those moments of connecting by talking and communicating together.

One of the most interesting and intimate things you can do together is read to each other, just like you read to your children.

Believe it or not, it deepens intimate bonds and relationships.

I know that sounds weird.

Read to each other.

I'm just going to encourage you.

That's a great way.

It's a great date night.

Make up your best meal, order your best meal in, and read a good book to each other.

Don't watch a movie, read a book.

Read a book to each other.

Take turns, maybe, even chapter by chapter, if you want.

Great things that you can do like that.

Spiritual, taking times to deepen your spiritual connection together.

Whether that's going to church, whether that's listening to worship music, whether that's whatever you're happening to do in this day and age.

You know, it's like that moment where we're together on this, we're talking about this, we're talking about the spiritual issues of life.

Social cultural, experiencing life through the social-cultural connections that you have, the relationships that you build, the friendships, all of those things.

Every area here that you can deepen the relationship with your significant other increases those bonds of connecting.

And then finally, introspection, reflection, the willingness to actually reflect and work on yourself.

We often don't talk about that, but that's just as significant in the couple as any other connecting piece.

The willingness to say, let me reflect on this.

Let me reflect on me, who I am.

What's what's I have to, in many ways, honestly say to my wife things, things about myself that that are honest, like, hey, I'm ADHD.

I get distracted by anything.

Anything.

Like, literally, you think it's like, it's sometimes not so funny.

It's like, literally, I get distracted by everything.

I'm not the hyperactive ADHD, I'm the distractable ADHD.

It's like, well, oh, wow, you just walked over to the door.

That's amazing.

I love it.

This is a guy over here near the door.

This is beautiful.

See?

I these are the things that are going on in my head all the time.

So I have to tell my wife and say, you know what?

I'm reflecting on this.

I understand myself.

I'm sharing this part of myself with you.

I don't dislike you because I'm distracted.

My wife initially in our relationship was like, why do you keep looking at other people who were eating out or other things?

I'm like, because they're just so interesting.

You know, it's like, I'm just looking at anything that moves, I look at.

And so it's that moment of like, I have to be willing to also hold sometimes where it's like it can also be hurtful to my wife.

And I have to honor that.

Wow, I know.

That's not the best.

That's not my best.

I'm gonna work hard today to be as present as I can with you.

Work hard today.

So one of the things we do, I try to sit away from TVs in a in a when we go out to eat with anybody because if I sit and look at a TV, it's like that's how I am.

I'm literally like, whoo, yeah, woo, yeah, whoo, yeah.

That's life.

One of the interesting things is I put 20 to 80 percent in each of these areas.

If you go below 20% of that shared space together, it weakens the relationship.

If you actually go above 80% of that shared space together, it weakens the relationship.

Too little and too much.

They're not supposed to be everything for you.

And they're not supposed to be nothing for you.

There is a balance here of recognizing that it's good to have friends.

You know, in Jewish culture, one of the challenges in Jewish culture was husband-wife relationships in Jewish culture were not the most intimate relationship, by the way.

Throughout the history of the Jewish culture, that was not your most intimate relationships.

Your most intimate relationships were same-sex relationships.

So me and Keith, David and Jonathan in the Old Testament.

A lot of people look at that and they're like, oh, that's a homosexual relationship.

Well, it it it's possible theoretically, and also it's probably just Jewish intimacy with men.

Because that's how men were really intimate.

And women were really intimate with each other.

And I think that's okay.

This didn't change until the romantic era of the 1800s.

In the 1800s, your spouse was supposed to be everything for you, a hundred percent.

And that's impossible.

It sets up an idea and an ideal that none of us can live up to.

We fail.

I fail.

I can't be a hundred percent in all of this for my spouse, nor should I.

Nor should I.

There are beautiful people here who can play roles in your relationship, in your connections, and those are important.

They play a role in you all living healthy lives, finding good supportive males, finding good supportive females for the relationship so that you stay somewhere in here.

When you're doing that, you're building trust, commitment, not abandonment, compassion, and empathy.

When you're doing this, you're building something that is building the very foundation of the relationship itself.

So you're thinking about the ways in which we're connecting.

How are we connecting?

And listen, it's okay.

There are going to be some of these areas you're not going to be 20%, it'll be below.

Or 80%, you might be above.

And that's okay.

As long as overall the general sort of process is much more in here, it doesn't matter if one area is overwhelming or one area is underwhelming.

You can work on that.

That's the beauty of it.

You can grow in that area, that's the power of it.

You know, it's like, wow, okay, you know what?

We're, this is why self-reflection is so significant.

Take the time, take the space.

What are the areas maybe that we're not really working at our best?

We can improve.

Listen, improvement is life.

That's part of life.

Just constantly accept that every day is an opportunity to get better.

I can improve.

I can make myself better.

I can make the relationship better.

I can make this world better.

That's the hope of Jesus, my gosh.

Yeah.

This is an early church, man.

They kept running around saying, we can make this place better.

And they did.

They thought they were drunk half the time.

Maybe they were, but who knows?

But they did.

People are like, I can't tell whether they're drunk or filled with the spirit.

You know, it's like they're going to make this place better.

And I think that's part of it, part of what we need to know.

Trust, commitment, compassion, empathy.

That leads to intimacy.

You want to be open with each other.

The more you do this, the more you practice this, the more you engage in this, the more you evaluate, hey, you know what?

We're doing really well in five of these.

We got two that we can work on.

Let's do that.

Let's practice.

Let's try that.

You know, we're too close in certain areas and we're too far away from each other in other.

Let's just commit to working on this and growing in these areas.

Particularly as we age.

Pastors, especially.

You know, it's like you're married to the church, she becomes the next bride in some ways.

And so it's hard.

One of the ways in which we need to actually make sure we're committed to ourselves and that the church is important, but not a member of this community.

And finally, trust and intimacy leads to unconditional love.

That's that's the magic.

This is the big picture overview.

The rest of it's gonna be details.

What you can do, how you can do it.

This is the big picture overview.

It takes a lot of work.

This is not easy.

I'm just gonna say, it's it's there are easy moments.

My gosh, I've had really, really amazing, easy moments in life.

But there have been some really horrible moments.

Like even good relationships have horrible moments.

That's okay.

That's normal.

As a matter of fact, we need to accept those moments as being part of the development of it.

Like, we need to work through this.

It's a horrible moment.

Yes, it is.

What?

See, this is my optimistic style.

What an opportunity.

We're gonna get better from this horrible moment.

And of course, my wife looks at me like scowling, you know, it's like, what is wrong with you?

I've been in therapy for a long time.

I have.

So it's like everything's an opportunity.

But it is.

I mean, when you finally recognize that everything that is in front of you is an opportunity, you see the world in a different way.

Even the difficulties are opportunities.

They're opportunities.

Unconditional love is ultimately what we are supposed to be and moving towards in both Christianity and I think in our relationships.

I I mentioned it on Sunday, 1 John 4.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God, and everyone who loves is born of God and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God.

For God is love.

That is our pursuit.

Both with God relationally and with each other.

I think honestly, the more we actually tap into that, the more we tap into that.

It's not like a linear thing.

I have to tap into unconditional love with God.

It's a circle.

The more you tap into love, the more you tap into love.

It's a big circle.

And it's beautiful.

Okay.

Okay.

You can go to the next slide.

Alright, so we're gonna try.

I apologize in advance, we're gonna try to cram an entire marriage and family course and an entire human sexuality course into the next 30 minutes.

So hang in there.

This is gonna be a very broad overview of just some practical things that you guys can work on together that you can work through, and then obviously you're welcome to ask us questions.

We'll hang out at the end.

If you have questions, you can reach out to us.

Our emails are at the end of this.

But what we want to move into a bit is how do we do this thing that Dr.

Lawson was just talking about.

So one of the things that we deal with a lot in couples work is communication and conflict.

People come in all the time, we don't know how to talk to each other, we keep missing each other, we don't understand each other, they're not hearing me, I don't feel seen, I don't feel understood.

Huge part of conflict is our lack of ability to communicate.

And let's be honest, most of us don't know how to communicate well with anyone, not just our spouse, right?

It's that space of how do you miss your coworkers, or how do you miss your friends or your family members.

And so one of the fun things you can do if you're bored one day, um, we do a thing in marriage counseling called grams.

And a geneogram is basically a family tree, but instead of just drawing out your family tree, and you want to do like you and your family, and then two generations back if you can, so like your family of origin and then your grandparents, but in a genogram, you don't look at just, oh, these lovely people have contributed to my genes.

You look at things like conflict, communication.

How does your family of origin, how down through the years, how does your family handle conflict?

How do they handle affection?

How do they handle love?

How do they handle education and work and what do they value and all those kinds of things?

You're bringing all of that into your relationship with your significant other, into any relationship really.

And so one of the fun things is I would like to make the argument that almost all, I put 95% because I'm just being a little bit conservative, but most all conflict is personality-based.

We come in with conflict, and it's like this person hates me, they don't get me, they don't understand me, they don't care about me.

But almost all of our conflict and communication struggles is simply that we're different people.

We have different personalities, we have different ways of approaching the world, we have different experiences, we were taught different things growing up.

We come into the relationship with our own idea and our own view of the world.

And so part of the challenge becomes: do you know what that is for yourself?

And do you know what that is for your spouse?

Do they know what it is for you?

And so there, in a somewhere on your paper in a minute, you'll see it on the slide.

There is a free, a link to a free personality quiz.

It's based on the Myers-Briggs, if you're familiar with that.

Um you can go home if you would like and put that link in and take the quiz, each of you.

Write down the letters that you get, write down the percentages that you get, and I'm about to tell you how they create conflict.

So just make some notes if you want to, so you can come back to this.

But I want to, this is something I do with all my couples.

I have all of them take this personality quiz and then we talk it through.

So in the Myers Briggs, the first letter that you can get is either E or an I.

E is for extrovert, I is for introvert.

So I want to just quickly go through the letters and the differences and talk to you about how they can create conflict.

So if you're extroverted, most people have very weird ideas about what extroverted and introverted mean.

A lot of people think the extroverts are the ones dancing on the table, and the introverts are hiding in the corner behind the tree.

Which some of that may be true, but essentially there's two things.

How do you communicate?

How do you express your ideas?

How do you process?

And where do you get your energy from?

So an extrovert gets their energy from people.

So an extrovert is going to come to a crowd of people and hang out with people and they will leave with more energy than when they arrived.

An introvert will come to a crowd of people and be exhausted when they walk away, right?

So you gain your energy when you're by yourselves.

So you can see how that would create some conflict, right?

The extrovert wanting to go out and be with people and do things outside of the home, the introvert wanting to say, stay home, stay in, let's just do something the two of us.

And so being willing to sort of compromise in that area so that both people can have those needs met.

The other part of it is how do we process?

So extroverts process externally.

So an extrovert talks aloud.

Anything that comes in their mind, they're telling you about it, they're processing out loud, they figure this.

Thank you.

Just like this.

I'm an extroverted processor, by the way.

I'm not.

She is not.

I will kill you.

No, I'm just kidding.

Anyway, so an extrovert.

That's right.

So an extrovert is going to talk out loud, process things through.

I once had one of the most extroverted people I've ever known was one of my roommates.

And I thought she was the most uncommitted, like crazy person ever, because we'd have dinner one night and she'd be like, oh, okay, so I'm gonna do this, this is what I'm thinking, and I'd be like, okay, great.

Then we'd have breakfast the next morning.

She'd be like, oh, so I'm gonna do this.

And it was the complete opposite of what she had said the night before, and I'm like, she's the most like inconsistent, uncommitted person.

And it took me a long time to figure out that I didn't really take too seriously what she said until she's like, this is my final decision.

So she's working it all out, right?

These are all the options, these are all the possibilities, and she's telling me those things because that's how she's figuring out what she wants to do.

Whereas me as an introvert, I do all that internally.

I'm thinking everything through myself, I'm processing it inside of myself, thinking about all the options.

So when I tell somebody what my decision is, I've already done all that, this is my final answer.

So you need to know, as partners, which one you are and which one your partner is.

Because if you're if you're an introvert and you think that your partner who's an extrovert is giving you their final answer, you're gonna get really frustrated really fast, and you're gonna think they're wishy-washy and they're changing their mind all the time.

They're literally just trying to talk through what you do by yourself.

So that's where some conflict can come in in that area.

Next one is sensing versus intuitive.

That's what the S and the N stand for.

So this doesn't typically create a ton of conflict necessarily, but the S for sensing is people who utilize their five senses and they're that they prioritize what their senses tell them, and that's how they sort of examine the world.

So I can't I can't know something with my gut.

For example, I have to be able to touch it or see it or hear it or whatever.

An intuitive person is one of those people that's like, I just feel this, I feel it in my gut.

You know, I I just trust myself.

And so an intuitive person will trust their gut sometimes, even over what their senses are telling them.

And so a sensing person would never do that.

So that's kind of what those two letters are.

And just real quick, too, one of the one of the things is the intuitive actually is probably picking up on the same things as the sensor, they're just not paying attention to it.

So what's happening is they they're looking at the same things, the the one is paying attention.

Oh, this is what I see, this is what I hear.

The other one's going, uh, this is what I came to.

And so they're seeing and hearing the same things.

Sometimes, most of the time.

Yeah.

All right, now, for fun.

These last two letter combinations are where the majority of conflict happens in all relationships, okay?

And the fun part is opposites attract.

So I am willing to venture, I guess, that almost all of you will be opposites in these two letters.

Almost certainly the very last letter combination.

The T versus versus the F.

T is thinking and F is feeling.

Now, let me give you just this disclaimer.

If you are a T, it does not mean that you don't have a heart.

It doesn't mean that you don't have feelings, and if you're an F, it does not mean that you can't think or you don't have a brain.

Okay?

So, if you are a T, what that means is that your first step, the way that you the lens that you examine the world through, is first through your logic.

I'm what do I think about this?

What is what does my logic tell me?

What makes sense?

What's the data?

All of that.

The F people are the people that start from the place that they're looking at the world through the lens of their emotions first.

How do I feel about this?

How does it make me feel?

What is it stirring up inside of me?

So you can imagine conflict if you're different in these letters, often, all the time in my office.

You know, you have no heart, you don't care, you don't have feelings.

How can you be so cold and just calculated and just only use your logic?

And the logical people are going, seriously, where's your brain?

Think.

Why can't you get out of your emotions and just be logical for a minute?

It's a huge source of conflict.

You guys are laughing because this is going on in your house.

Okay?

Just saying.

And finally, the last letter combination, P versus J.

This is where almost all relationships, this is opposite, because opposites attract and it does create balance.

The P is um, I'm gonna start with the J.

The J people it stands for judging.

It is not like a I'm judging, I'm critical, but the judging people are gonna be more of our type A's, our people that want order and they want to make the list, and everything has got a space and place.

And our P's, which stands for perceiving, our Ps are the people that are like, oh, life is great.

It'll work out, it's fine.

Don't worry about it.

It's great.

You can see how that might create some conflict, right?

Let's have a plan.

Oh, I don't even need to plan, it'll be fine.

It'll take care of itself, we'll figure it out, we'll just take it as it goes, it's fine, right?

So uh this gets lots of couples in trouble because they it gets to that space of that in that opposition space, the question always becomes again, you don't care about me, right?

It's that place of if you're a J and you are an organized person, it does not make sense to your mind how someone could not see the towel laying on the floor.

Okay?

But for a true P, they don't see the towel on the floor because their mind is on the big picture, they're thinking about, oh my gosh, it's a new day and this is so fantastic.

And then we'll do laundry, it's fine, we'll worry about that later.

Right?

And so you have to recognize and realize we have an automatic assumption that everyone sees the world the same way that we do.

And guess what?

That is not true.

Everyone has their own experiences, their own family of origin, their own trauma, all the things that they bring to the world and they bring to the relationship.

It's all different, it's all unique.

And so we have to let go of the fact that I am with someone who's going to see things the exact same way I am.

It will not make sense to you.

If you are a P and your partner's a J or vice versa, it will not make sense to you.

You literally will be like, Are you stupid?

What's wrong with you?

How can you not see this?

What's going on?

Why are you so rigid?

Why can't you just let go and be relaxed?

All these kinds of things, right?

Difference is okay.

You can go to the next slide if you want.

So, just as an example, my my wife's family is Mennonite.

So, her background, my father-in-law was a Mennonite pastor.

For those of you that think Amish Quakers, they're in the same tradition.

They're in the same tradition.

And so the first time I went to visit my my soon-to-be wife's family, my mother-in-law, soon-to-be mother-in-law came to us and said, How many hamburgers do you want?

And now there's a reason in their culture, there's a very specific sort of process.

I grew up in the South.

If we didn't have three days of leftovers, we were we failed as a cook.

So it's like you cook for at least a hundred people, even if there are two.

So anyway, so she said, How many hamburgers do you want?

And there is a moment of panic because I'm like, I'm just used to whatever.

You know, it's like I'm a pee.

I'm used to whatever.

She was a J.

And I said, one, and she said, How many hot dogs do you want?

And I said, One?

And so I had one hot dog and one hamburger with nothing on them or anything.

And I literally left thinking, she hates me.

This woman absolutely hates me.

And it had nothing to do with that.

Some of that was cultural, some of that was she's a J.

I'm a P.

I'm like, cook, you know, whatever.

You know, it's like Oh, somebody'll eat it.

There were no extras.

Like, literally, we got at the end of the table.

I was like, there has to be something somewhere.

Looking under the table trying to find the extra, like, cracker or something.

Nothing.

Nothing.

Anyway.

Yeah.

And so one of the things that happens in conflict and in communication is that we do take everything personally.

We internalize it as that it's about us and something's wrong with us, or they don't care about us.

And so, very commonly in marriage counseling and relationship work, you have that comment of, you don't care about me.

What's wrong with you?

You don't see me.

So if you're not picking up your towels, you don't love me.

And here's the reality: what would happen if you were to start from a place of that your person loves you and their heart towards you is good?

If you can start from that place, it changes conflict, it changes communication dramatically because we come into conflict defensive because we're starting from a place of you hate my guts, you don't care about me, what's wrong with you?

Why are we even married?

You don't love me.

If you loved me, you would do all of these things.

Right?

And part of it is simply we are different people.

Guess what?

What attracted you to the person that you're with is also what drives you the craziest.

It's true.

There's tons of research supporting that.

That the very thing that attracted you and got you married is the thing that you will hate later.

So just as an FYI.

So for those of you that are new and all of this, buckle up.

It's gonna be fun, right?

It's okay.

We laugh about it because here's the thing, you guys are laughing because these are conversations and fights and arguments you've all had.

It's part of life, it's part of marriage, it's part of understanding each other.

And so my challenge to us is that how do we start from a place of this person loves me and their heart towards me is good?

They're not trying to harm me, they're not trying to piss me off, they're not trying to make me so angry that I want to leave, they're not trying to deliberately dis you know dishonor me or any kind of thing like that, disrespect me.

They are just different than me.

And so how do we bridge the gap between those differences?

Not this person hates me, right?

And I'm not saying that we ignore conflict, it's important, but the reality is different is not bad, it's just different.

And we have this mentality, and this is part of a huge part of what's wrong in our world right now, and the and the politics and everything that's going on in the polarization, we don't have space for difference.

If different is a threat, if somebody being different than you is a threat, it is your problem, not theirs.

Different is just different.

And if it is threatening to you, you need to look at that and figure out why.

What about difference feels, yeah, go to therapy.

Go to therapy, survive.

What about difference feels so overwhelming and feels so scary?

We have got to be able to own that and understand it because different is just different.

This person is different than me.

That's what attracted you to them.

It's great.

And yet, in that space, how do we resolve those differences?

How do we live with them?

How do we hold space for the other person to be different than us?

It's okay, guess what?

You don't have to agree on everything.

That would be really boring if you did.

You do not need to replicate another person like you.

You don't need to go out and make the rest of the world be just like you.

We all represent a part of the image of God that's unique, and we need all of us to give the complete fullness of the image of God.

That's right.

That's right.

Nobody has to look like you.

Nobody should.

You're unique.

Be unique.

Let your person be unique.

Celebrate the differences, and then figure out how to live together in those differences without killing each other.

It's great.

Right?

One of the things I always tell my folks, my students, everybody, is how do we adopt a posture of curiosity?

I think if we can be curious, that will change the world.

So, hey, here's how I experience the world.

Tell me how you do.

I'm curious.

What does this feel like for you?

How do you feel that?

How do you see this?

What is this like for you when this happens?

When you, when, where like help me understand.

When I see a towel on the floor, all I'm thinking about is, oh my gosh, there's a towel on the floor, it's gonna get mildewy and moldy, it's gonna smell, blah, blah, blah.

Why can't we just hang it up?

It would look super pretty and it would make the bathroom look nice.

Tell me, help me understand what do you see?

What do you see?

I'm truly curious.

Not in a I hate you and I'm trying to change you.

Help me understand what is this like for you?

What do you see or not see?

I want to know how your mind works.

I want to know how you process, and I want to share with you how I do.

And then finally, in this, the ultimate goal ultimately is here's the deal.

If we're on two opposite sides of a bridge on an issue, whatever that issue might be, the answer always in couples conflict is I want you to come to my side of the bridge.

I want you to join my side.

Well, you wouldn't want to go join their side.

So why are you expecting that they're gonna want to come and join yours?

And so the idea becomes how do we maintain who we have been made to be?

Because that's that matters, how do we maintain our identity?

But we both lean in to help bridge the gap that's between us.

So I'm not compromising on who I am, I'm not changing who I am, but I am willing to compromise on some things so that I can love you well.

So, how do we both lean in and meet each other in the middle of that gap?

Not an expectation of you are going to come to my side or I have to come to yours, and that's the only way that we're gonna resolve this.

We're gonna maintain who we are and our separateness, and we're gonna work together to bridge the gap that we might find between us.

Make sense?

And a lot of times it's respectful communication, which we're gonna talk about some communication stuff in just a little bit.

But you know, you can lean in and respectfully disagree and do it in a way that honors the other person and invites them in also.

Yeah.

Curiosity.

Help me understand.

That's great.

Next slide, please.

Okay, so these are some fun assessments that are in your thing.

This is the young typology quiz.

That's the one that'll give you your letters so that if you don't know what you already are, you can look at that and compare.

And then sometimes people enjoy looking at the five love languages again, just what makes you different, how do you feel loved, how do you show love, and working on those things together.

So those are just there for you.

Next slide, please.

All right, really quick, because we are gonna quickly run out of time.

Uh, and I want you to hear about sex, because that's really why you're here.

Um, just kidding.

Okay.

Wow, that's exciting.

I mean, you know.

Okay.

That's why I'm here.

It's why you're here.

So, really quickly in communication.

Um, the Gottmans are a uh husband and wife couple, and they're pretty famous in the marriage and family therapy world.

Um, you can actually go, they have a website, the Gottman Institute.

Um, you can Google that if you want, but um they have a lot of theories, they have a lot of resources, they have a lot of cool things.

But one of the things I like about them is this idea that they have the four horsemen in conflict.

So, really, really, really fast, and I'm so sorry to rush through this, but I just want you to be able to get as much as you can.

Um, so their four horsemen are what they say we do as people in conflict to actually make conflict unhealthy.

So the first one is criticism.

And so the idea of criticism is it's it doesn't mean that we can't share something that's bothering us, it doesn't mean that we can't complain, if you will.

But the idea of criticism is when we attack the other person at the core of their character.

So I'm not just saying, like, hey, don't really love whatever, or so complaint.

I was scared when you were running late and didn't call me.

I thought we'd agreed we would do that for each other.

The criticism is you never think about how your behavior is affecting other people.

I don't believe you're that forgetful, you're just selfish, or whatever.

So we're criticizing their actual character, who they are as a human, rather than saying, hey, this really hurt my feelings, or I was scared when I didn't hear from you.

Could we make sure that we kind of keep to our agreement next time?

So that's the idea for that one.

Contempt.

When we have contempt, it's the meanness, it's criticism on steroids.

I'm actually being mean to someone, and it's the idea of I'm in a position of moral authority over that person.

So you're tired, crying your river.

I've been home all day with the kids, you do nothing, you know, whatever it might be.

So it's this idea of again, how am I taking this position of moral authority and telling my person how horrible they are and my contempt of them?

Okay, that's the second one.

The third one is defensiveness.

Defensiveness is typically a response to criticism.

And so what happens when we get criticized and we go defensive rather than owning what's ours, we will actually shift blame to the other person and then give excuses.

Well, it's really your fault.

Here's why it's your fault.

And I, you know, I'm doing so much, I'm so I'm tired, you don't even care about what I've got going on, etc.

etc.

And so typically when we're criticized, we will become defensive.

And then the final one is actually called stonewalling.

And sometimes you'll see this as a response to contempt, but sometimes this is also just what people do.

Stonewalling is when you just shut down.

You withdraw, you shut down, you get the silent treatment, you just don't talk anymore.

Because guess what?

If somebody refuses to engage, you can't fight with them.

And so a lot of people will actually stonewall.

The opposite of stonewalling and a way that we can uh have a healthy conflict instead would be actually saying, you know what, I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now.

Can we take a break and let me just kind of recover and think through and get my thoughts in order, and then let's reconnect in a little bit and start and kind of continue this process.

So instead of just shutting down and shutting somebody out, you're saying, hey, uh, this is too much for me right now.

I just need a moment, and then we'll come back together.

So this website, we don't have the ability to show it to you, but this website you have the link for on your page.

Um, this is a really cool visual image for you that shows the four horsemen and it shows the anecdotes of how can we actually do the opposite of that so that we can have healthy conflict instead of doing these things that will actually cause harm to the relationship over time.

I think just quickly, there's a couple things just physiologically to think about.

Because we what we don't realize is conflict is not just emotional and relational, it's also physiological.

So one of the things that actually negatively impacts conflict is your heart rate.

I said it just briefly in I think the first service I didn't say in the second service, but when your heart rate goes above 90 beats per minute, your prefrontal cortex starts kicking off.

Like literally any rational fault starts shutting down.

By 100 beats per minute, it's off.

All you have is your midbrain and your high brain.

Meaning you're just reacting.

And because of that, that's when we hurt each other.

That's the moment that we actually really hurt each other.

Because we're just, we're literally throwing anything that is in that reactive process at the other person.

And it hurts us off.

And that's when we're most likely to harm the partner, your spouse, in a relationship that you're dating, or whatever.

We're most likely to harm them in that space.

And so a lot about conflict and healthy conflict is about recognizing, we have many of us have watches or other things, recognizing when your heart rate gets too high and taking a time out.

And saying, hey, listen, we we both need to cool down.

You've heard cooling down.

Well, there's something truthful about that.

Cooling down is important because when you cool down, you can come back with your full brain on.

Otherwise, you're you're more likely to harm the other person.

Unintentionally, you're not trying to do it.

It just happens because it's like knee-jerk reactions.

It's reflexive.

You're just going to react.

It's like, you threw this at me, I'm gonna throw it back.

You said this a couple times, I'm gonna say this back.

Last week you said this, and suddenly it's just all reactive stuff.

You're just mudslinging at each other, and it hurts.

Yeah, it does.

Yeah.

Again, I think, again, long term, what we always tell folks, and I'm again sorry to cram so much in a short period of time.

This is really just like skimming the surface of good conflict resolution and communication.

So, but I always tell my couples this just talk, talk, talk, try again.

If you if somebody's not hearing you, try again, keep keep trying, keep talking.

And that is really, you just have to commit to that.

Let's let's continue the conversation, let's keep trying, let's keep talking, and check in with your partner.

Hey, so how how are you hearing?

Like, or again, I statements, right?

So when you said this, I heard this, is that what you meant?

Or I it felt like this to me.

I know that's not your intent towards me, so can we talk this through and explain, communicate.

If they don't understand it, try again.

Keep trying, just talk.

What happens a lot of times by the time couples get to marriage counseling, they've stopped talking.

They're not communicating anymore.

And so, even again, and if you need help, go to therapy.

Have somebody help you figure out how to talk to each other.

It is so, so, so important.

We build intimacy in that conversation, in that communication, in those conversations and talk.

Often by the time they've come into therapy from that conflict, from not talking, trust is shattered.

There's just almost no trust left.

And that takes so long to rebuild.

So, and that's one of the challenges, you know, when you start realizing, maybe we've got a problem, that's the moment you come in.

So that you don't undermine what positive things you've built by by continually sort of you know going through the motions and doing this stuff and mud slinging at each other, and then by the time you come in, it's like, well, she said she's gonna leave me.

He said he's gonna leave me.

Well, that's abandonment, one of the key fears.

I don't trust him anymore.

I don't trust her anymore.

That's another key issue.

By that time, we're gonna have to start at like ground one, like the first floor of dating all over again.

Another thing to think about just real fast is about every three years, you need to do a check-in as a couple.

And every seven years, you're a completely different person.

There's there's this old adage for those of us that are a little bit older, maybe wiser.

How about I'll say that?

Those of us that are a little bit more wise, remember a phrase called the seven-year itch.

Do you remember that?

There was a movie called The Seven Year Itch.

Uh, the seven-year itch is actually pretty consistent, literal, real, in that every seven years you're a new person.

You you really are a new person.

You're you're a completely different sort of person.

So every three years, learning, going back out, starting all over again, it's like, ooh, I've got a new person here.

Who is this person?

Let's check in.

Let's start dating again, let's do do that.

And so thinking about every three years as a way of confronting that seven-year basically crash, because about in seven years, if you've not really actively engaged in intimate relational sort of dynamics, you've got a completely different person.

And and that's important.

It is.

And so that's something else that we need to be constantly mindful thinking about.

Listen, it's it's great to date, it's great to continue dating.

Um, if you struggle with those types of things, there there are cards out that you can, you know, the the magic of dating cards or something like that, where you pull out a card and it's like, hey, it's Greek night, and so we're gonna have a Greek salad and go get the go get the sheets from the bed and we're gonna wrap them up and we'll have a euro together.

You know, those are the types of things, it's like, you know, if you're not creative, get get a creative book.

My gosh, they're out there.

I mean, you know, it's like I I sometimes I like creative stuff like that.

That's like, woo, just give me some opportunities to do that.

But you know, some people are like, no, it's like it's it, that's not the easiest thing for them, and that's okay.

Use use resources.

Like if you're not good at something, find a book that is.

Find a deck of cards that you pull a card out, and it's like, here's our date for tonight, here's what we're doing tonight, you know, and and just do those types of things to keep yourselves actively engaged in the process of getting to know each other.

One of the coolest, I'm gonna interrupt you because then we have you have like two minutes to talk about the rest of it.

Oh, man.

I've got two minutes to talk about sex.

I was gonna say something horrible.

I was gonna say that's a cookie, but that's okay.

And on that note.

Okay, so one of the fun tricks for a date night, um, for those of you guys that might struggle, so this works for the J's and the Ps.

This is a way to compromise.

Sit down together and create a list of things that you both would be okay doing.

So activities and have them be like some of them could cost Monday, some of them could be free, whatever it might be.

But you you come up with a list of things that you both would be okay with.

This would be fun, yeah, we both enjoy this, we both have a good time.

Write those things on separate little sheets of paper and then cut them up or whatever, stuff them in a jar, and so on a night where you say we're gonna have a date night, you go pull something out of the jar and you do what that thing is.

The the J's are okay with that because they have they know that they've already agreed in their mind this is something I would enjoy doing.

And the P's love the spontaneity of ooh, what are we gonna get tonight?

Right?

So it's a great way to keep some excitement and to go on dates and have fun.

Okay, seriously, it's like eight o'clock, so you get go quick.

Okay, we're uh next slide, please.

Sex.

There we go.

Wow.

Uh one of the more recent issues that we have seen therapeutically and in in literature and in life in general, and even in divorce cases, is the issue of sex and sexuality.

Hey, I like sex, hey, my spouse doesn't.

It could be male or female, it doesn't matter.

And that's been a that's been a big issue that we've seen that has sort of been more frequent, more common of late, people talking about this, this is a real issue, and it is a real issue.

It it is a real issue because in essence, we are hardwired to have sex, males and females.

You we're both hardwired for sex, we are.

You're hardwired for sleep, you're hardwired to eat, you're hardwired for sex.

Actually, the primary, the first thing that you're the most powerful drive that you have in your in your brain is actually sleep.

The second most powerful drive is sex.

Your your brain is more wired for sex than everything else, including eating and drinking and anything else you can think of that's a drive.

And and most people don't realize that.

Males and females.

This is not like, oh, well, you know, it's it's a male thing.

No, it's also females.

Your your brains are wired that way also.

It's it's deeply connected to different parts of your brain.

And so one of the challenges I think in Christianity is we're often so ashamed of talking about sex and discussing it as an issue that we don't even talk about it.

Like, there's something theologically relevant about the fact that everything that breathes has sex.

It procreates.

So it says something about God.

I mean, think about that.

God could have snapped his fingers and done anything and said, this is how people are gonna procreate.

This is how you eat cake and you procreate.

It might have still been fun, but I don't think it'd have been as intimate, maybe.

Um, but that God said, no, you this is how you're gonna do it.

And animals do it, plants do it, insects do it, anything that breathes does it this way.

So there's something very significant about the way that God designed the essence of the universe that says, listen, sex is important, it's meaningful, it's relevant for us.

And so I can't go through all of this because physiological, emotional, social, relational, cognitive, spiritual, experiential, listen, that would take uh the another day.

And so I don't even know what to what to highlight here.

What would you say?

I think what I would say, the the most important thing, or one of the most important things that I think we we miss in the church as it relates to sex, is just really quickly, we'll we'll kind of end with this part, I think, um, from a conflict perspective.

So one of the things that a lot of people don't know is from a perspective of drive.

So um the feel-good hormone, oxytocin.

Um you all know oxytocin, it's it's actually more commonly known now than it used to be.

Oxytocin, we we actually discovered it in the 19 uh, actually.

And there was a question, you know, what is oxytocin?

What does it do?

Uh brand, I mean, we're still discovering things about the brain, about relationships.

We are.

We're we're still we still have to be curious.

Scientists are still learning things.

But oxytocin is recent.

1990s, we discovered it.

We didn't know what it was about.

We knew women had it.

We wondered whether men had it, and we discovered that men also have it.

It's like, ooh, okay, so men and women have this thing, and it seems to keep people connected together, like attachment stuff.

A hormone.

Yeah, so it's a hormone in our bodies, your brain produces it, and it is both the feel-good hormone, but it also is the bonding agent.

So it helps us feel connected to and close to someone or something.

So for women, we produce oxytocin and we produce a lot of it in a variety of ways.

You can produce it actually, breastfeeding is really common.

It's how women bond with their infants, it's the way that you create the bonding moment.

So as you're feeding your child, your body's producing that, so suddenly you feel very close to your infant.

Uh for women, any type of touch, like massage, hugs, all that kind of stuff, produces good levels of oxytocin.

Guess what?

For men, the only, and well not the only, they can produce small amounts.

We have other amounts of oxytocin.

It's not the only way.

But the largest and and most uh biggest way, I guess they can produce the most effective way, um, is when they climax.

And so part of what happens, I think, often as women is that, and I'm gonna speak to this as a woman here, is that we can often feel very used in a lot of ways, like guys only want us for sex, they only care about that.

They're, you know, they're not wanting to just cuddle, they're wanting to cuddle so that we'll have sex with them or whatever it might be.

But you have to understand that they are truly trying to bond with you because that is the way that their brain connects the bonding agent.

It is only through climax.

So when they have sex with them with you, they feel bonded to you and they feel connected.

So of course they're gonna seek that out from you because that's how they feel the closest to you.

And so, as women, I think if we can understand that and that we can't, because I feel like we get lost in this sort of like men are pigs, all they want is sex, all they care about is sex, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And men are like, you don't want to be with me, why do you not want to have sex with me?

It's a huge source of conflict.

And I feel like there's a game changer when we can understand the physiological component of why it's such a high drive.

It is because they actually care about you and they want to be with you, and they want to feel bonded to you.

And so, how do you, you know, how do you do that in creative ways?

Maybe you don't have sex all the time, but there's lots of things you can do to create climax um and help them feel connected to you and bonded to you because that will also strengthen your relationship and your marriage.

I think, too, one of the interesting things as as we age, um people say that sex drive decreases.

That's actually not true.

Uh it it lots of things.

You're you're just tired more.

It's like by the time you get to the top of the stairs, it's like I'm gonna make it to the bed.

So sex drive is still there.

I think it, you know, there there is this, there is this idea, an ideal that it's like, well, as we age, it gets it gets easier, it gets this.

And and I want to say, no, it's still a significant part of the relationship, it's still a significant part.

Um as as women age, they produce less lubricants, so you know, stock up.

Uh, I tell people.

I tell people that because I know we don't talk about these things because it's like that's normal, and this should be normal conversation that we all know.

Everybody knows as women age, they produce less lubrication, so you need to go out and get lubrication.

Because if you're going to have sex, it needs to be pleasurable and good.

And and and that's an honorable way to make sure that happens.

But it's also one of the challenges I think with many couples is we schedule things out for almost everything but sex.

And that that's super unfortunate because it's like, well, you know, sex needs to be organic.

Sex needs to be, and we go through this cycle of all these things.

And what I would like to say is, planned sex is still good sex too.

It still is.

Uh, just because you plan out a vacation does not mean it wasn't a great vacation.

And far too often we look at sex in this sort of like, it needs to be whatever, this sort of miraculous process.

It's like, it's okay to plan things too.

Having sex once a week, planned, is actually not a bad thing.

Scheduled.

So that it's like, hey, we've got this time blocked off.

I mean, it can be something exciting to look forward to for both men and women.

For the J's, it's like, ooh, I've got my schedule.

For the P's, it's like, well, you know, I could actually mix it up a little bit, and that day, who knows what I'm gonna wear that day.

And so for the for the P's, you're doing whatever, you know, and the J's are like, it's scheduled and it makes sense.

But I think one of the things to think about is having intimacy and sex is actually good and healthy.

I think God enjoys the fact that we enjoy sex.

He created it for that.

I think he did.

I think he created it to basically go, wow, wow, this is amazing.

This is an incredible moment.

And so I think far too often we look at it in almost this distant, you know, scared.

The 19th century did not help us.

I talked about romantic stuff, but the 19th century didn't help us in many ways, the 1800s into the early 1900s.

We became so prudish that anything sexual became absolutely abhorrent.

You couldn't even physically, this is the time period where women's chests were flattened, the butts were covered or flattened, that men actually could not have bulges anywhere.

You've heard of a Prince Albert?

That's actually from that time period, the piercing of the penis actually is from that time period.

He actually did pierce his penis and strapped it to his leg so that oh yeah, fun times.

So that he did not bulge.

Because, and I'm saying, the 19th century sucked.

People look back and like, you know what, I'd like to go back to that time period.

That was a pretty, pretty, you know, great time.

No, it was horrible.

It was horrible for men, it was horrible for women.

And we come out of that time period still struggling to be honest and real in discussing sex.

And the church should be the safest place.

God created it.

God created this amazing thing.

Amazing.

And as before we close, I do want to say a similar caveat.

There's many people and many of us in this room who've gone through sexual trauma, sexual abuse.

And I will say that obviously is gonna have an impact in relationships and that can be very triggering.

So if that's part of your story, it's okay.

There's no shame in that, right?

Get get get counseling.

Go to counseling individually, go as a couple.

You can learn, even in trauma and even in really horrible situations, you can learn to have good intimacy and feel safe with your partner if you can work on it together.

So don't let that keep you from trying to build intimacy, but also honor your own stories if that is part of your story too.

Alright, we gotta go.

Keith is like, Keith is like, No, no, it's like come on, we went way over our time, I'm sorry.

It's fine.

I want you guys to speak just briefly around um the Christian perspective in the sense of how different people's experiences kind of created this movement during the missionary movement, and all the things you guys shared.

Don't get into the nitty-gritty.

Yeah, but you could share how those things are kind of helped shape our understanding around intimacy and why there's such a crowd around it.

Okay.

St.

Augustine, third century AD, actually had sexual trauma himself and then wrote about it in negative ways.

The Confessions of St.

Augustine actually talks about the process of how he he really, really, really felt awful about his sexuality.

He basically said all sex was bad.

All sex is bad.

There are only three times that it's not absolutely the worst sin on the face of the earth that got incorporated into Christian tradition.

All of that.

Three times.

And I mean, it's like if you're having kids, you can have sex.

That's number one.

If you're having kids.

If you uh are might have might fall into temptation, that's a horrible thing.

I run up to your spouse and go, hey, listen, I'm about to we need to have sex.

But that's what he said.

That was number two.

And and number three is that sex can be a sacrament, but you have to set it up with like candles and sing, you know, as the deer panteth for the water, so my soul moment after thee.

You alone are my heart's desires.

You know, who wants that?

That's but so literally St.

Augustine set us up as Christians to hate sex.

It's bad.

That's why we don't talk about it in Christian tradition, because of him.

Now, he's brilliant, I love him, he's amazing.

And he was a very wounded, wounded man and needed a lot of therapy.

And his pain became our pain.

This is the history that he gave us.

And I I I listen, I'm not against the man that he's in heaven now, probably having, I don't know what.

But you know, he's probably doing something outside of those three things, so I don't know.

He's enjoying that.

He's enjoying that.

So, you know, God is a great God.

So I, you know, so that that's the that's the beginning.

The next one, St.

Thomas Aquinas gave us a whole list of sins, and just that became the next big thing.

And then the eight the 1800s.

Do you want to talk about that?

Do you want to?

Okay.

No, you don't want to talk about that.

1800s uh became the next big thing.

Anything related to, and I so bear with me as I talk about the big M word, masturbation.

Anything related to masturbation became evil, awful, bad.

Um, they thought you were gonna die.

They thought uh actually that you there was a reason for that.

They thought you were gonna die if you were masturbating.

Uh, hairy palms, remember that guy's if you were younger, he's you know, you're gonna have hairy palms.

Come on, guys, don't leave me hanging up here by myself.

Holy cow! We all talked about that.

I was like, you know, if you were masturbating, you know, blah, blah, blah.

That's all related to a that's all related to a disease, actually, that they thought happened with males who were masturbating.

And so they terrified people into not masturbating.

They terrified them.

Um and so, uh, just so you know, Kellogg's cornflakes was made as an anti masturbatory device.

Every time you eat Kellogg's cornflakes, you're supposed to.

not masturbate I guess it's cold cereal before before kettlebogs came about before it came about they ate warm cereal and oatmeal and things like that for breakfast everybody was eating hot cereal so they they literally thought by starting your day with something cold it would decrease your steps drive yeah so kelleh cornflakes oh oh but it's that's that's not all that's not all uh what is uh graham crackers grim crackers were also created as an anti-masturbatory device grim crackers yes all of this you don't even know you're still eating it going wow this is great it's like not realizing it was started as a way of stopping people from having sex and masturbating and things like that.

So and then in more modern times I would say for those of you guys this was where I grew up in the South in the purity culture if you guys were familiar with I Kiss Dating Goodbye that whole scenario I grew up with that.

And so there was a lot of shame that also got created even in the in the 90s and early 2000s around that you know you don't kiss until you are on your wedding day and like you don't date and all this kind of stuff.

And it created so much shame in in the church culture around just dating itself.

I mean I grew up terrified of all the things because of of that part of my culture.

And so what has started you know from uh Saint Augustine from St.

Augustine all the way through the years has been perpetuated over and over and over again in various ways.

Yeah and sold and repackaged and sold and re you know from Kellogg's cornflake to like kiss dating goodbye seriously it's like we just keep repackaging sex is bad sex is bad sex is bad.

And God said sex is so good something that I made.

I mean we have a whole book dedicated to it the Song of Songs.

I mean it's a beautiful sex book it really is and so you know we when you when you realize that we have a sex book in the Bible you can start understanding the type of God we serve.

Because he's like listen this is good I want you to enjoy it I want you all to enjoy this one of the best gifts God has given us what an awful evil thing to get hurt that and that's what the evil has done I think it's one of the big difficulties we have in the church why we can't talk about it.

I mean my gosh that's evil taking something that God intended for good and now we can't even talk about it in church the place where God said this is good.

So it makes me really sad.

It does sex is not something that's talked about when I when I come into class we haven't had the human sexuality class yet so I know but sorry we got some people here in in a program so uh anyway but it's you know I think that's it's it breaks my heart because I think there is something very powerful and significant about relationships commitment trust sex everything that God has intended for good it's and it's beautiful it really is and so that's my hope you know and go to therapy if you need to listen I all all four of my kids went to therapy.

You know I was a psychologist here I was you know and I'm like oh I'm so good I'm a you know I got all this figured out and I'm teaching and I'm doing therapy and then my first kid had to go and I'm like so ashamed.

I'm like oh my gosh my kid's going to therapy I suck you know this is bad and then my second kid went to therapy and I'm like well maybe it's not that bad.

I don't know my third kid went to therapy I was like good thank God and then my fourth kid went to therapy I was like we're getting them early now you know it's like right I finally it's like do it because it the the the time that you take waiting is time that you can take back for yourself and for your joy that's stuff you can take back.

Don't be afraid of it.

I've been in therapy for 14 years and been in a support group for 12 and I brag about that.

I'm still working on it.

I still am don't be ashamed of this thank you for joining us to learn more about Celebration Orlando a church devoted to reaching the lost equipping the found and helping the hurting follow us on social media using the handle at Celebrationor L or visit our website celebrationorl.org