After The Message | Corinth | Week 03

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After the message, episode two in our quarantine series, welcome those of you listening, watching, however you're absorbing this.

Yes.

Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

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I was gonna start off the podcast by just going, sex, now that I have your attention, but that would definitely trigger the algorithms.

Probably for the good.

You never know who we'll get.

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And I'm so happy that you're with me, Pastor Keith.

How are you today?

I am happy to be here with you, my friend, and I'm doing well.

Good.

Yes.

If you're unfamiliar with After the Message, uh it's just a segment of our podcast that we like to continue the conversation on, typically from the previous Sunday sermon.

And we are in a series, like I mentioned earlier, on uh well, the church in Corinth overall, mainly first Corinthians, a c a little bit of second Corinthians as well.

But it's what we would coin here in Orlando, an immersive series.

Yeah.

Where we like to look at a little bit more context.

Yep.

Go in more detail, provide supporting resources to allow people to explore and continue to study.

And and just come to and in many instances, and this is something that's kind of rare, is allow people to come to some of their own conclusions.

Yep.

One of the things that I've learned in my faith journey is that there's camps for everything, and there's interpretations and context for everything.

And so there's so much information out there.

So for us, we're not like the end-all be all sages.

It's like, here's what my interpretation is from it.

You may come to a different conclusion, that's okay.

But we're gonna tee it up, allow you to explore, allow the Holy Spirit to work, and let us keep moving.

Yeah.

I was talking to somebody after service the other day, or like, you guys didn't do uh an episode in week two, did you?

I was like, no, no, we're we're kind of doing it every other flow.

And he's like, All right, good.

You know, I didn't want to miss it.

So somebody's listening, somebody's watching, which for our 10 consistent, faithful viewers.

It's growing though, Nate.

It's actually it's growing, man.

No, for sure.

It's catching a vibe.

You know how we know?

Because um every week, like clockwork, my mother will text me typically after the 10 30 service, and she'll say, Hey, enjoyed the message and something super encouraging.

My mom is amazing in that way.

And then after she said that yesterday, she said, and I also watched after the message.

Let's go.

So we've whatever our view count is, she's one of them.

Amen.

Let's uh let's get into it.

We we're looking, you know, more thematically, not necessarily um chronologically or anything, but we're just kind of picking out some of the things in particularly the book of 1 Corinthians that we think is especially relevant to our church, but also our our time period right here.

And I think what stuck out to me, and even as you were preaching yesterday, is we've said this, but it really hit me how familiar a lot of the things we're talking about really are.

And even a couple times you mentioned, you know, that may be unfamiliar to us, or we may not really, but when I started thinking, I was about no, man, like you know, it's it's really it hits close to home.

You know, how surprise may it not be the right word for that, but has that kind of hit you at all when going through and studying it a little bit to see like, man, this is actually because one of the things against the Bible is well, it's irrelevant.

Yeah, you know, it's it's outdated, it's antiquated, but there's a lot of uh applicability, if that's a word, to what we're studying and what we're looking at right now.

Two things, yes, that's an amazing word.

Okay.

Um and then the other is yeah, like I I feel like the Bible never ceases to amaze me.

And and so, you know, it's referred to as uh the living word of God, sharper than any two-edged sword.

Like there's this dynamic of it that you know, you read it, you engage it, and you feel like, okay, I've I've extracted truth from it and check I got it.

Yeah, then you revisit that same passage in a different season with with different perspective, different experiences, and it speaks to you in a completely different way.

So I'm not necessarily surprised at some of the ideas of the Bible, but I am surprised at how much the parallels are because we're in a different season where now these things are being highlighted in my own life, so I can see it more clearly in scripture, and that's what I love about just the way it was written, the Holy Spirit's interpretation, how he stirs our hearts.

So it's like, wow, like this this isn't that unique.

So it's fascinating.

And the the verse in Ecclesiastes that's kind of you know um forming the way that we view these things, is there's nothing new under the sun, right?

And so, in terms of what we hit on yesterday, which was sexuality, um there's there's nothing new about it.

There there's there's brokenness, you know, there's uh misinterpretations, there is confusion, there, you know, camps, even as you mentioned at the top of this, there's different camps and stuff.

And so I think for the church in 2024, there's this pressure to have answers that are being thrown.

Well, what does the church think about and this and this and this?

And I'm starting to think that maybe the church has become a little bit too institutionalized in the fact that there's got to be an official statement other than what's in the Bible, right?

So where did that slippery slope kind of come?

I mean, we even kind of see it in our in our day-to-day, like, hey, what does the church think about this?

What is the church?

We it feels like we have to have a statement on every nuance.

That's the I think that's the thing that I have been silently rebelling against in different ways, okay, specifically as as a as a lead pastor over the past five years.

Because you you have these varying things that are happening that are interacting with people live with people's lives.

I I think that there's a heightened focus on it, and and I I hate to make this a scapegoat.

I don't think it's exclusive to this, but we talked about this in our our last session.

But I think that the the politics and the politicization of certain things have certainly aided in that.

Yeah.

Because what's what's happening is is you have these things that are happening in culture, and then you have different political camps, different ideologies attaching biblical principles and hijacking certain things and weaving in their interpretation of scripture to it.

So now it adds a measure of, well, okay, so this camp over here says that if you're a true Christian, that this is what you believe.

Yeah.

So but is that what you believe?

Yeah.

And so now it creates this weird spot of you have entire groups of people who are Christians that are like, well, I guess I have to agree with that.

You have other people who are walking their faith out, but they're trying to figure out what do they believe as these social things are there, so they're trying to wrestle through it.

And then you have people who aren't Christians that are that are making assumptions of what all Christians believe because they're watching these people on TV talk about this is what true Christians believe.

So I think that that Pandora's box has gotten opened just through a a series of compromises that the church has made over the years, that's made it such a slippery slope now.

So I think what I have been silently doing is my understanding and my faith journey has always been like we wrestle with God's word.

It's a it's a collective thing we do as a community, but there's more room for man, you come on, you land on this side of it, I land on that side of it.

It doesn't mean that we have to park camp unless it's like really, really critical issues that just make it hard for us to to to worship in the same space.

But that's what I was brought up in.

So as I started moving into um the modern context, I guess that we find ourselves, especially in the non-denominational space over the past 10 years, and then specifically over the past five, it's like, what's the church's stance on this?

And so a lot of times I'm like, I I don't know if it's my place to tell you what the church's stance is.

I can tell you where I've landed on this, and this is what's informed my perspective, and I will teach this, but I will also leave room for interpretation and lead people to a space where they can come to their own conclusions.

But I think we often find ourselves like the church needs to take a stand on this, and I'm like, I just don't see that that's the case for me.

That was my next question, too, is what is the responsibility?

Because you hear that a lot, right?

Like for sure.

Like we need to take a stand, but I oftentimes forget what is happening in the scripture because I just look at it a little bit.

Um I look at it just like it's a a book for anybody, which it is, but Paul's writing to a specific group of people, particularly in you know, 1 Corinthians, the book that we're in, even pointing, calling out a specific person in the scripture that you read yesterday in regard to sexual immorality.

And so while it can be beneficial and fruitful for us still today, it's about a specific situation.

And I think also that applies to where we find ourselves where anyone in the world can listen slash watch this, but in reality, our main priority is to shepherd and lead our church, which is in Orlando, Florida.

You know what I mean?

So there's the tension, right?

And I don't know if you've wrestled with that at all.

I I do it at times, I think only because I've seen how I've seen how people have gone viral for good things, I've seen how people have gone viral for bad things.

And and the mere fact that we're talking about that, it it kind of carries its own weight.

Um but what I mean by bad things is that there are people that I know, that I personally know, that have good hearts.

There are people that I know that genuinely love God, that genuinely love their families, and and they're doing the best to lead and serve people to the best of their ability.

I don't know the shadow version of themselves, I don't know their insecurities, I don't know that, but I know them well enough to be like, man, I know that they're doing their best.

I've also seen um on social media these people get dragged because someone has taken a a portion of something that they've said on platform, they've zeroed in on it, and they've just extracted it in such a way to almost dehumanize and to make them an illegitimate preacher and what they're called to do.

And so it it it it doesn't give room for one mistakes, because we all make mistakes, two for a different interpretation um and context.

Like they're pastoring their community, and yes, they understand they have a global audience, and so you have some people that are like, well, you just need to be aware of that.

But I'm like, again, you're you're projecting an expectation of perfection.

So if we carry the weight of I have to pastor the entire world and my community at the same time, there's gonna be moments that it overlaps and you're gonna miss something.

So I think for me, that's kind of the the tension that I wrestle with.

So I do feel a responsibility to be mindful that I'm speaking to more than people than the people that's in the room.

But I feel a responsibility to speak to the people in the room.

Yeah.

So there's a I'm aware of it and I want to make sure if I say something, that's why you know my theme, I try to contextualize things as much as possible.

But at the end of the day, I feel like my response, like when God gives me a word to speak to our community, it's never like this is for the world.

Yeah, it's never like this is gonna like it's for this is for our church.

And I realize that anyone that's choosing to watch this, you're entering into our home.

And this is a conversation that we're having, and you're welcome to be here.

I just don't want to be vilified for me talking to my family.

Yeah.

And that beautifully illustrates, I think, even what the Apostle Paul did with the do you not know or don't you realize statement.

Because he's basically, as you said yesterday, kind of tugging on the the conscience or the common sense side of us, you know, just the what is actually inherent in our being.

And uh so anybody who, if they're truly honest with themselves and they hear his words or they read his words, they're like, Yeah, he's got a point.

He's got a point, you know.

Yeah.

We all I think you know, we all have um those things where you have you have things that you feel strongly about, but hopefully, and this is a hope, hopefully we are all reasonable.

I think it's very challenging.

This is just me speaking very transparently.

This is after the message.

I find it very hard to communicate with people who are unreasonable.

That means that no matter what you say, they they refuse to even be reasonable.

Like, so so those those are very challenging for me just because like if we can't agree that that's black, I I don't know what else we can do.

Like I don't I don't know if I have the gift set or the patience and watch this or the desire to go to go any further with this conversation.

True.

So so what Paul is doing is he's talking to an audience of people that each of them have a measure of what they would define as wisdom.

The Greeks believe that they were brilliant, the Romans considered themselves to be brilliant, and even the Jews they considered themselves to be brilliant in their own space.

So he's literally using a neutral term that will hit each of them in the chest.

Like, you guys know better.

If you honestly were to look at what you're talking, what I'm talking about with you and look at the evidence of it, come on.

Yeah, it's almost like you're talking to your children, like, look, I know you don't want to admit you're wrong, but come on, man.

Stop that.

Like that's that's that's what he's doing.

Exactly.

My son's not even one and a half, and I'm already like, bro.

Yes, you know, and it doesn't get any easier, Nate, but God bless you in your ministry.

Thank you.

So in verse number nine of 1 Corinthians 6, he starts out off said, Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the kingdom of God uh in there.

I feel like nobody's getting in.

You know what I mean?

Yes, and then he goes on to list it, l uh list it, don't fool yourselves.

Those who indulge in sexual sin, worship idols, commit adultery, male prostitutes, practice on and on and on.

You know, that list that certainly excludes me.

You know, I mean there are things that I've fallen short of on that list for sure.

You know, and Jesus even says, if you've looked at a woman the wrong way, you know what I mean, you've committed adultery in your heart.

So help us pastor us through this and how we're not gonna burn in hell because we've maybe fallen short on this list.

I think there's a when you hear these lists, and and Paul provides a few of them, you know, we see the ministry of Jesus where he engages it and we see how he responds to it.

But then in Paul's writing, because he's teaching, he addresses these lists like one by one.

And so what I find fascinating, one is that virtually everything that Paul puts in his list, whether it's the one in Galatians or the one that he kind of itemizes to the Corinth church, there's an expression of Jesus' ministry of him encountering versions of that thing.

So I think one, that's really beautiful to see what Paul says about it, but how Jesus interacts with it.

But but specifically what Paul is communicating is before we are born again, we're born with this sin nature and we are closely linked to our sin.

So our sin becomes our identity.

So what we do becomes a part of who we are.

So if we stand before the judgment seat of God and we're not covered by the blood of Jesus, our sin goes before us.

So when he's giving the list, he's like, Hey, so if you're in fornication, that's what's going before you.

If you're in adultery, that's what's going before you.

If you're greedy, if you're lustful, that's what's going before you.

But then the hope that he provides is you once were like this, um, but you've been made clean.

So even though the people he's addressing still have the same behaviors, the blood of Jesus goes before them now.

So even though they're falling short in some of the same behaviors, but it's under the blood.

So that's the distinction.

So when he's addressing it, he's saying, I want to let you guys know the difference between a person who is living in a sin and a person who struggles with sin.

When you're under the blood, you're struggling with sin, but you're but the blood of Jesus goes before you.

That's why um in Exodus on the reason why Passover is so significant, is that the people were still the people.

The difference was some people were in houses that were covered by the blood, and some people were in houses that weren't.

Literally the same individuals, still with the same struggles, same things.

What made them different?

The blood.

That's what makes us different.

So that's what he's saying.

So we all have some of those things, but it's covered under the blood, and then we wrestle with it faithfully, hopefully to get delivered from it.

Yeah.

I also think, too, depending on I guess your interpretation of the kingdom, the kingdom isn't necessarily even a it's not only a future, yeah, yeah.

It's a present reality, right?

And so if you're saying that, you know, someone who is an adulterer uh or someone who is a murderer isn't gonna inherit the kingdom of God, like someone who's practicing or indulging, as one interpretation says of this, then well, yeah, they're they're they're not currently in the kingdom.

So I don't know if it's necessarily a heaven or hell issue right out right out the gate.

Does that make sense?

It does.

And I think there's there's definite truth to that, and I think that's why, you know, when you look at the the varying ways in which we're instructed to come before God, that moment of surrender.

You know, we we've heard man-made prayers, but they're meant to be theologically rooted, which is like there's this moment of confession, this moment of I am a sinner who's in need of a savior.

That's the that's the the posture of the heart, as Romans would say, it's like, hey, confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart.

The only way that we can accept Jesus as our sacrifice is to surrender to the reality that he needed to sacrifice for something.

What is the something?

My sin.

So there's a moment where you have to acknowledge that I'm a sinner who needs a savior, and I'm I'm acknowledging that, and I'm thankful that Jesus stood in my place.

So it's it's a it's a theological construct that switches our position.

But for people that are like unrepented or haven't surrendered, then they're they're living with their sin before them still.

So I think that you're right.

It's the the kingdom of God is the it's the it's the now and the things to come.

And so when God is trying to lead us into the the kingdom, there's an there's an overlap that requires our surrender.

So how do you help, you know, or how have you helped in the past someone who maybe has approached you and said, like, man, I love Jesus.

I believe he died from uh, you know, on the cross and he rose again from uh the dead three days later, and I believe that he is my savior and my lord, but I'm still struggling with pornography.

I'm still struggling with I'm not married and I'm sleeping with my girl.

You know what I mean?

Fornication.

Like, how do you help that person?

What's your encouragement to them and where they're having a perhaps an existential crisis on on who they are?

Yeah.

I think there's um there's a couple of ways to approach it.

Okay.

I think there's a difference between a person who acknowledges and is struggling with sin, even if their struggle looks like total surrender.

But there's a there's an awareness of like, man, like I'm I'm struggling with this, but you know, I like to use the reference, like, but the toothpaste is out of the tube.

This is why in um The Songs of Solomon, beautiful book about sex.

So again, point one, we're sexual beings, when people are like, Oh, I don't know, read songs of there's an entire book dedicated to it.

Um, but in chapter eight, verse number four, it says, Do not awaken your desire before it's time.

Because the truth of the matter is, like, once you kind of engage in it, like it's awakened.

It's it's it's on.

And so some people um struggle more with that than others.

Certainly there are disciplines you can put into place, but but we won't we won't get into that.

But certainly there are people who are struggling with it.

My my concern, if I could call it that, is for people who don't struggle with it.

Like to them, it's either unrepented, unrecognized, or they just don't care.

So Paul refers to that in Romans chapter one when he refers to people with a reprobate mind where it says that their conscience has been seared.

That means that they don't have a conviction over it.

It doesn't even bother them.

Like in their filter, there's nothing wrong with that.

So that's when I begin to explore, okay, like so if if there are ways that you're living your life that are contrary to scripture and you don't have a conviction on it, let me understand why.

And typically in those moments, in the past, it would have probably been like, Well, you need to repent.

In the past, it would have probably been a little bit more dogmatic.

Now I look at that as you've numbed yourself because whatever this expression of your sin is, that's a coping mechanism that's helping you to survive whatever the trauma is that has led up to you having this behavior.

So for me, it's typically going a little bit deeper to understand what happened that got you to a point where this coping mechanism is bringing relief.

And typically, once you can have a conversation to understand how you got there, you can begin to hopefully lead them to a place where the Holy Spirit can begin to soften their heart to allow them to know that me acknowledging that the way that I live is not living up to God's standard.

Not make me less than it doesn't give me shame, but it actually empowers me to start being seen the way that God sees me and then ultimately to be healed from it.

So again, my approach has shifted from let me give you thirty-eight more scriptures on why you're wrong.

It's more help me to understand how we got here.

Yeah.

For someone who may not have even or beaten the experiences that you're in right now with uh learning a lot about mental health and um becoming a licensed therapist and and just that that world, someone may look at that and go, okay, you're just kind of glossing over and using trauma as a scapegoat for everything that's wrong, right?

Like how how would you approach that person who said, like, well, sin is sin.

You know what it kind of the dogmatic old you know way of of looking at it?

Like, well, I I think that um for me it it goes back to what does loving this person well look like?

Got it.

So um I think more often than not, we feel we need to say something because we need to take a stand for God instead of considering, but how am I being experienced when I say it?

So sadly, we'll look at scriptures and and and this is one of those things, and this is not to put conflict between Jesus and Paul.

Right.

But what I've often seen people who are very dogmatic do is they'll uh they'll look at Paul's writings, they'll look at some of the things that he says, or some of the things that he does, and they'll say, look at what Paul does with this.

And I'm like, look at how Jesus handled it though.

Look at how he encountered it.

So one of those beautiful moments for me, um, when it comes to that tension is okay, let's let's consider for a moment the woman at the well.

If we were to look at this from a dogmatic lens, she's been with five different people according to G, like, hey, the one you're with now isn't even um your husband.

So there's a lot of what on the clinical side we would say emotional trauma.

We understand the dynamics of when she went there today, understanding culture, like there's a lot of nuance there.

So now she has this encounter with Jesus.

He doesn't ignore what she went through, but he acknowledges the journey that she's been through.

So while he's talking with her, he gives her value, he refers to her as daughter, he's interacting with her, but he also is calling her out, but in a way that it can be experienced with grace and love.

You have a Pharisee sitting there, it's a completely different experience.

Yeah.

What are you doing here?

You're like, I shouldn't even be seen talking to you.

That's a great example of it.

I think another example of it is when um the woman who's caught in the act of adultery.

I referenced that in the first sermon um yesterday, but I didn't in the second.

But but with her, I think it's a beautiful example.

She's caught in the very act, she's dragged outside.

Jesus, our law says that we could kill her, we should stone her.

What do you say about that?

Jesus is like, well, listen, man, like you're making a big deal about that, but we all, y'all all, not me, y'all all got something.

So let's let's do that.

But if we're gonna start stoning, let's let's really talk about it.

Everybody leaves.

So the most religious people walk away, but then he turns to her and says, Hey, but go and sin no more.

Yeah.

He still addresses the issue, but he's not condemning her and tearing her down.

Yeah, you very rarely see instances where Jesus is tearing people down, but he's ex he's helping them to have an experience with grace and love, but also truth.

None of us are Jesus, and I get that, but I'm not trying to gloss over someone's trauma because their trauma is a part of their story.

So we still speak the truth, but we want to make sure that they experience love.

Why is and that's a great point, because I think Jesus says it too, and you know, perhaps I'm anyways, Paul definitely says it, you know, avoid sexual sin, run from it.

Like nothing else harms you just as much as this, and you could kind of start thinking, like, well, I know a few things that could that could really harm me.

Why why is that stated?

What's what's the significance of it?

So this is where um it gets a little bit unique, depending on how you approach it.

Okay.

Um so I'm gonna tell you how I see that now.

Okay.

Um the way that I see that is when when Paul is talking about no other sin has a deeper effect on your body, no deeper sin has a way of affecting your mind, your emotions, your spirit.

It's very unique how this can holistically affect you.

And so there's this there's this chemical thing that I don't believe that Paul was processing through when he wrote this.

So a lot of times when you have people that have different experiences or they have science, they're like, oh, this is what he meant by that.

No, Paul didn't understand unbelieving, because these are newer found um theories.

Um, but this thing called love hormone.

And so the love hormone is called oxytocin.

And so basically, what happens whenever two people are intimate, that oxytocin is released, which is a bonding component in our minds and in our bodies.

So every time we're intimate with somebody, it creates a unique bond.

So in a super Christian world, they call that soul ties.

You ever heard that phrase before?

Okay.

So so I was in a group, all about us.

You know all about it.

So that's that moment of when you're sharing your body with someone, there's this chemical release that bonds you with one another.

Okay.

And so when that happens, that's very powerful.

You become connected with that person, and then if that relationship doesn't work out, then you move on to another person.

Then that doesn't work out, then you move on to another person.

And what happens is the potency of the bond begins to get weaker.

So now regular intimacy no longer is enough because you've numbed it, because you've kind of spread it out enough that, hey man, like this isn't it anymore.

So this is where fetishes get kicked in.

This is where other things begin to get worked in because you've numbed yourself to the ability to be intimate with one person.

Now there's no condemnation, God redeems it all.

Like, I just want to be very clear about that.

But that's my understanding of hey, when you're intimate with somebody, this is not just a okay, we did it, we move on, but there's a there's an exchange that takes place that you'll carry with you.

That's why they always say you never forget your first.

Like those things stick with you, and as you continue to move down this line, it has a way of affecting what loyalty and relationships look like.

Interesting.

I heard someone once say that, again, from a very grace-filled filter, they they once said, like, hey, imagine you um they were breaking down statistics of um people and the amount of sex partners they have, and then the longevity of marriages based off of that.

Like it's very profound but scary stuff.

Yeah.

Because the more and more, the the more insatiable and the more varieties, like, you know, man, you you give me a menu with a million different options, it's hard for me to imagine eating one thing for the rest of my life.

Right.

Unless God redeems it.

Right.

So I think in my own way, I think that's what Paul's saying.

Like, this is not something that's like you cut somebody out, you hit somebody, you move on, you forgive.

It's this is something that has the ability to affect the way that you even see relationships going forward if we don't invite God into um redeem it.

And I think that's what even you were alluding to yesterday when you were talking about uh you did your Uno illustration, right?

And you were talking about the creator has an intent for for sex and uh it is to it is to develop that deep bond with with your spouse, right?

And so when that's when that's abused for lack of a better term, or when that's overused or used incorrectly, uh there's collateral damage to that, not only for you, but for the other people who are involved to it.

1000%.

And I think that's also kind of what the apostle Paul's talking about, too.

Like, don't you know like if you if you join yourself with someone, you're now becoming a part of them and them a part of you.

And uh in reality, you're the temple, right?

You're the temple of the living God, and so you're almost tarnishing that temple in a bit.

Can you speak to the significance of being the temple of God and what because I don't think we fully wrap our minds around the fact that the Holy Spirit inhabits my body, and so I think that adds a whole nother layer of weight and gravity to how we treat ourselves, especially when it comes to sexuality.

Man, that's that's great.

I I think the only way to really appreciate this stuff is to understand at least the writer's perspective to the best of our ability.

Okay.

Um so so when you're considering Paul's upbringing, there were temples all over the place.

And so he's using this unique phrase temple when he's talking to a very diverse group of people, but that was something that they all could relate to.

The Jews understood what the temple was for them, and so their their view of the temple very much is what ours is.

Like, you know, at this time the Old Testament has already been written, and so they're using these writings to inform their faith.

So they understand the they understand the wilderness years, they understand the tabernacle, which is the first physical structure that the presence of God was in.

They understand that David had a heart to build a house for God that he then passes on to his son Solomon.

Solomon builds the first temple, and so you have these varying versions of the temple, but when the first physical temple was built, it speaks about when God came in and that the place became filled with his glory.

They called it a Shekinah glory of God, and that the priests couldn't even perform their duties because the presence of God was so strong.

And so it's the overlap of heaven and earth, and it's meant to give us a a glimpse behind the veil of what it will be like in heaven.

It's really this beautiful place.

So that was the that was the Jewish understanding of the temple.

Then you take in the Greeks, where they had temples to all kinds of gods.

In fact, to um the community in Corinth, they had uh the temple to Aphrodite, even though it didn't have the same reverence that we would understand it as, but it was a place of clean cleanliness, it was a place of sanctity, it was a place that that everything was in tip-top condition.

Same thing with Rome in the way that they had um monuments erected to their leaders and even other things.

So everybody understood, like, hey, when you say temple, though we may have different images, what we do recognize is it's a place that's clean, it's a place that's well kept, it's a place that you don't mix certain things.

When you get to the temple, you know that you got to handle it a certain way.

So each of them could pull from their own lived experience and and come to a conclusion that, hey, the temple's not common.

You don't treat the temple as common.

That's what I that's one thing I do know.

We don't treat it as common.

So Paul's like, hey, so watch this.

God doesn't dwell in temples made by men's hands.

Guess what?

The minute that you accepted Christ, you became the temple.

The Holy Spirit dwells on the inside of you.

So now, Jews, think of every instance where you've seen prophetic writers talk about the presence of God.

Now imagine that's what's on the inside of you.

Wow.

Now, with that context, what are you doing hooking up with this prostitute?

What are you doing?

Like it's it's meant to challenge the way that we steward our bodies because we recognize like I am the temple, and the temple was meticulously well kept.

So he was trying to pull from their lived experience to make a theological point.

Yeah.

You mentioned yesterday the purity culture, right?

And so it was birthed out of this idea to keep our temples pure.

Yeah.

However, it sort of snowballed or maybe even without the originator's intent became like a shame fest.

Absolutely.

Um so someone who maybe grew up in that or reeling from those ramifications, what do they do?

You know, and and you even mentioned how when they got married, they still had issues with uh with sex with their with their spouse.

But hey, it's all legal, like you know, we're we're good.

Everything's been everything's been ratified here by during the marriage.

So what's what's that person's how do they get free of that?

I think it's it's certainly um I think it requires getting into a place that fosters freedom.

Okay.

So um, you know, there's there's one part of it where this this concept of stewarding our bodies in a in a way that honors God, beautiful.

But then like you said, the shame culture, all the other things, you fell short, what do you do with all that stuff?

And so a lot of times it's people who are walking in shame.

And so I think the the the key principle is is to either go to a a church that that preaches freedom that can lead you to a place of what it looks like to be a person who can really embrace it.

There's no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

It it requires you to be in a community of people that can help you to um take the layers off because it's not like you're gonna read a verse and magically it goes away.

It's you you have to walk through it.

So there are there are church cultures that can help to cultivate that a little bit.

Honestly, man, um, and again, this kind of gets into my my therapeutic side of things, man.

But but I've met I've I've met with plenty of couples who struggle in this area because of that, where maybe the wife was raised in this purity culture context and the husband wasn't raised with any of that, and he's trying to understand, like, hey, we we're married now, but I still feel like there's this limit, and genuinely just helping to redeem God's view of sex, which is why my first point was no, we're sexual beings, because sadly, um in the purity culture context, especially if you go back to like early church fathers and even going through um the the time of the crusades when people were forced into being Christians and they were putting all these laws in place on this is what it looks like to be a Christian and this is how you have to have sex, and and all like there were literally rules put into place that are still perpetuated in culture.

So these things didn't just happen in a vacuum, it was literally influential people, like people whose commentaries we know they had their own issues with it, and they they kind of spewed it out, and now it became a part of this culture that just kind of ran rampant, that even runs to this day.

But their doctrine became their doctrine, their traditions, their traditions turned into doctrine, and that that doctrine turned into gospel.

Okay.

And and so it's hard to break free from some of that stuff.

And so you literally just have to not to overuse this word, but you have to deconstruct that and say, like, where's this really coming from?

Like when I look in in God's word, I see how Paul's like, Man, it's a beautiful thing, it's great.

I see Songs of Solomon, I see these instances of how it's supposed to be this enjoyable thing.

Why do I have shame with it?

Let's figure this out.

Because when you understand where it comes from, you see that that not only were there strict restrictions, even in the context of marriage, but even defining when you're supposed to have sex with your spouse, like, hey, it's transactional, um, it's only for procreation, it you should not enjoy it.

Like these were things that were literally being taught in the early 1300s through the 1600s and beyond, and that's shaped entire generations.

Yeah, and sadly that residue still exists in the same way of so many other broken cultural things, you can still feel it even if you can't pinpoint it exactly.

Yeah.

So if someone is looking for an environment of freedom, let's say, um I think the church in Corinth was looking for that as well, and they even abuse that to, you know, freedom in Christ, it means I can kind of do whatever I want.

Yeah.

So let's help them avoid that scenario, right?

Like so, what would maybe some markers to identify, and maybe we can even pull from and learn from the mistakes of the church in Corinth on what freedom in Christ actually is.

Yeah.

So what would be some markers that you would give somebody to find perhaps what a a freedom culture church looks like, I guess, or an environment that that would be.

Yeah, I think um I think one of the ways that you could at least try to discern, and and this, you know, we all have filters, we all have biases.

Yeah.

I think we have to all acknowledge that and and own it.

Yeah.

So so for me, there are certain things that helps me to understand if this is an environment of of freedom.

And based off of my lived experience in conjunction with my my my theological and spiritual encounters with God, this is a conclusion I've come to.

Environments of freedom typically aren't very restrictive when it comes to certain things.

And here's what I mean by that how are women treated in that culture?

That's a very big big telltale sign of if it's an environment that is restrictive, how are the gifts of the spirit um interpreted and viewed and expressed?

I'm not talking about running around the church speaking in tongues, but if it's one of those environments where the spirit is a mysterious thing, here's what we have to understand: where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

And if there's not an acknowledgement or an invitation of a true, tangible um encounter with the spirit of God, then what does freedom look like if the spirit's not there?

So I think it's it's genuinely trying to understand what's the culture like for women, is it repressive?

And then also how do we acknowledge and how is the Holy Spirit um engaged and discussed?

Those are typically my mile markers when it comes to church environments.

That's not me trying to be judgmental or critical, but just for my own filter, I'm typically looking at those two things in a sense of like, man, like is this an environment that fosters freedom as I understand it?

Because again, um, the Holy Spirit, there's freedom in Christ, but there's not freedom to do whatever.

Right.

So a big theme that's on my heart, and we'll be exploring this more in the future, is like freedom in Christ means free from sin, but it also means I'm free too.

And we have to fill those blanks, and we're not just free from sin to do whatever we want, but we're free from sin so that we can serve God.

We can like there's a connecting component to it.

So that's why Paul always says, like, I'm free, I'm free from the bondage of sin, but I'm bound to Christ.

That freedom is only real when it's connected to Jesus, is how Paul would interpret it, and that's what I plan to bring our church on that journey in another season on.

That's great.

You've been bought with the price, right?

Like that the the whole point of the the whole point of the sacrifice of Jesus was to basically buy you back to redeem you from what the enemy stole or what the enemy absconded with, which was the children of God.

Yeah, it's that's the whole point.

Like your body's no longer your own, like I've your mine.

And so I I do have some I do have some things that I want to pour into you.

There's also some things I want to protect you from.

I got a calling on your life, and there's there's ways you have to live your life.

You're a you're a witness, and I think that's the bigger thing for for me is that we're we're called to be witnesses.

Our lives are meant to be um we're supposed to be martyrs.

And so the the literal translation to witness is martyr.

That means that I'm there's some things that I have to die to so that Christ can can be seen in me.

So um that's the that's the trade-off, is that I've been bought with a price.

I'm I'm now connected to Christ.

My old man has passed away, but it's not I, it's Christ that lives in me.

It's it's understand that life of cruciformity.

And so there are going to be things that challenge all of us, and and that's okay.

We're gonna wrestle with it, we're gonna try to figure it out, but but we're still free.

That's what Paul's message to the Galatian church was.

It's like, yeah, you're free, but don't lose your minds.

Don't get crazy now, guys.

Like, yeah, uh, you know, like don't get legalistic, but also don't get so free that you come off the guardrails.

Like, if you think about it, specifically for people, again, legalism we understand, like, hey, nobody wants that.

Nobody wants to be bound in sin.

But for the people that swing to the other extreme, it's like, where else is that work in your life?

Where else does a life with zero boundaries, what does that create?

Right.

Let's be realistic.

Like, what is a road, as much as we hate traffic and having to wait at red lights?

What is a road without red lights with a whole bunch of intersections?

Right.

Chaos.

It's chaos.

So we wouldn't want that on our best days.

We would never let our kids run around without any rules.

So why would we expect that God would say, Yeah, I don't care.

It just it doesn't, it doesn't make again.

Let's be reasonable.

That's why Paul's like, you guys know this.

Yeah.

You you know better than that.

That's not a loving father, anyways, right?

Someone that just says, do whatever you want to do and we'll figure it out on the back end.

Yeah.

That's not a that's not a dad who loves you.

Yeah, this is not meant to condemn any fathers, but you're a terrible dad if that's your approach.

We love you.

Sundays, 9 and 10 30.

There are a couple of things, there are a couple things you mentioned specifically in the message that you wanted to hit on today.

One of those being singleness.

Yeah.

What was something that that you wanted to make sure our community knew or that you had the ability to address when it came to singleness?

Yeah.

I think it's so some of the stuff may bleed over and it may kind of like roll over into the other things I wanted to hit on.

But a lot of times when people read Paul's writings and you you hear him say things like, Man, I wish you all were single like I was.

Some folks are like, okay, like what does that mean?

Yeah.

And and then you even have some belief systems that are like, okay, so yeah, that means that if you're called by God, then you're called to be single.

Okay.

And you can't have family.

And so again, it's just these, these, these varying interpretations of it.

Here's the first thing I will say to singles.

Enjoy your season.

I think we're I think where we have gotten it wrong.

Um, and and even if you notice with with the way that I approach a lot of our series, we've had different discussions.

I would give people a behind the scenes look into some of our preparation.

When we're talking about series, there have been different times where I'll I'll share with you guys like, hey man, like I I I historically don't preach a lot on like relationships.

Because my filter is typically like I'd rather teach the Bible, and if you can do the things we're talking about, it's going to help your relationship.

Like if you can have the fruit of the spirit, you're going to have a great relationship.

Um, but I also understand there's times where we need to unpack that.

And so I'm I'm definitely on board with that.

But that's always been a theme for me.

Like, hey, like we have to stop making um our relational status the theme.

And so I've noticed that in just times past, like, that's the theme.

Like, oh, that's the church they always talk about relationships.

It's fun.

And you do that at young adults ministry.

And I get it, that's the season, or as we would say, a phase of life that you want to zero in on and construct messages around that.

And I think there's value to that.

The sad reality of it is that we we make it seem like there's a tiered system where, okay, there's singles and then there's married.

Got it.

You graduated to being married.

Got it.

Good job.

You've made it.

And so when you see the writings from Paul, Paul's like, no, it's actually cool if you're if you're single.

Like he was trying to, he was trying to bring equality to like, hey, it's fine if you're single.

And don't feel like your life is defined by whether or not if you're married.

And so unfortunately, specifically in Christian culture, but even society now, like, like, look at this.

If you are married, you get better benefits.

If you are married, you get better tax deductions.

Like, we've we've we've turned marriage into a commodity that people are striving for for a tax break instead of having an intimate relationship with someone that you feel like God's calling you to be connected to.

So what Paul was trying to bring was hey, if you are single, enjoy it, embrace it, and don't feel like your value only starts when you can start popping out babies or when you get married.

That is not a healthy view of things.

The other thing from a purely theological standpoint, and this is going to be something that's going to make some people um brustle a little bit, we have to understand Paul's theological and hermeneutical approach to life.

When he has his radical encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus, from Paul's perspective, and this has been vetted by not only his writings but by scholarship, Paul was very big on the return of Christ.

Paul was very big on we don't know when Jesus is coming back.

So a lot of his teachings had the level of urgency to them because his mindset was Jesus could be coming back any day now.

So when he's talking to people and trying to get the church in order, and he's talking to people who are having these issues with relationships and singles trying to figure out, well, do I need to get married?

He's saying, like, listen, Jesus is about to come back any day now.

So you really don't need to worry about that.

So it's almost as if when this just happened last week, so this is a great example of Caleb came home and I'm I'm cooking some food on our smoker.

He comes home and he's like, Man, like I'm hungry.

And he's like, Man, I'm I'm gonna run out real quick and get something to eat at McDonald's.

And I'm like, oh no, don't do that.

Dinner will be ready in 30 minutes.

He's hungry now, but I'm like, but food's coming.

Paul's perspective was Jesus is coming back.

So just hold off.

If you're not already married, then don't worry about it because Jesus is about to come back.

If you're single, enjoy your season of singlehood because Jesus is coming back.

Paul's perspective of the return of Christ, while trying to be very open-handed, was very much like it's imminent.

So I think the interesting thing is that Paul lived and taught as if Jesus was going to return.

The modern church teaches as if he's not.

Paul was like, there's an urgency because Jesus is coming back.

So that informed the way that he discussed things because he wanted to make sure that people were putting their perspective on the right things.

Wow.

There's also a little bit of pragmatism there, too, I think, with Paul, because he's saying there's a lot you can get done.

You know what I mean?

Like if you don't have a family to take care of.

Not in the not in the sense that he would ever, you know, ridicule anybody for having a family, but I I'm sure he's thinking, especially because this this guy's got he's bivocational, as we would call.

I mean, the guy's making tenants, plus he's trying to, you know, expand the gospel out west and all of that stuff.

So he's probably just thinking to himself, like, look, if it's not an issue for you, stay that way because there's a lot to be done for the master.

We have a mission.

Yeah.

We got we got things to accomplish, we got things to get done.

And so if you are not married and you're committed to this work, man, like there's so much freedom and just being able to go and get these things done.

So let's focus on that because we're on a mission and Jesus is coming back.

Yeah.

So let's focus on that.

Now, if you're married, let me give you some instructions on that.

But but if you're single, enjoy your single, be on mission and get these things done for God because He's gonna return.

Yeah.

So it was never from a standpoint of your life is incomplete or or whatever.

I would say very practically to kind of close out this thought, is from Paul's perspective, and and even for us, I want us to hear, like specifically for singles, like um your value isn't found in your marital status.

And so even if you feel like God's called you, because again, I think that marriage is a ministry, and like any ministry, it's a calling.

So if I feel like God is calling me to marriage, but I'm not in that season yet, then like anything, you prepare.

You're doing work on yourself.

You're you're you're about the Lord's business, but you're doing deep work on yourself.

You're going to counseling, you're connected to community, but you're also being introspective so that way by the time you get married, you're bringing a healthy, confident version of yourself to that marriage.

And hopefully that person is doing the same thing, and then your marriage can thrive instead of like, I can't wait to get married.

I'm gonna while out in these streets until I do get married, I'm gonna bring all this baggage, you bring all your baggage, and then we're gonna have all these problems, then we're gonna show up at the church and say, Can you fix us?

I I'm fine with that, but there's a way that we can be about the Lord's business so we can minimize that.

We'll never eliminate it, but we can minimize it by doing our own work.

Yeah.

The other thing you said you wanted to to touch on here today was his instructions for abstaining from sex in marriage.

Was that correct?

Yes.

So sadly, what was happening in that community was um marriage, they they didn't have a healthy view of it.

So marriage was a transaction.

Okay.

So a lot of times in that community, what would happen is marriage was not the place that I was getting um my sexual needs met.

I looked at my marriage as a transaction, and so for husbands, my wife became the place, she managed the household.

But then I had other extracurricular activities that satisfied that.

So that's why Paul's like, no, no, no, no.

Let the wife be the one that satisfies your needs, and then let the husband be the one that satisfies your needs.

Like, let's bring this into the marriage because they were expressing these things outside of the marriage because the marriage was just a contract of like, hey, you come from a good family, I come from a good family, we'll have kids, we'll perpetuate our bloodlines, but we'll have other expressions for having our needs met.

So Paul was trying to say, no, that actually needs to be preserved for you instead of you having these other things going on outside of the marriage.

So he's trying to make marriage honorable and and make intimacy special and and having that connection there because it wasn't happening in the marriage except for when it was, okay, it's time for us to have kids.

We'll have that, but we'll also explore these other things to have our needs met.

Paul was like, no, no, no, let's bring it, let's bring it into the context of marriage.

That's where your need should be met.

For for someone who, you know, may have experienced some some form of sexual trauma, um, and perhaps they're in a marriage now, and that is um producing or causing them to revisit that.

Where do they go?

What what do they need to do?

How how what's the best way for them to get help to be able to find that freedom and to enjoy the fruits of marriage the way that that God did intend for it?

Yeah, I think, you know, so I'm I'm a firm believer in the power of God, the Holy Spirit.

You know, I'm a fruits of the Spirit, gifts of the Spirit, God.

So obviously the first box is God, Holy Spirit, church, and in and environments that can hopefully cultivate that.

The other tier to that I would say is um honestly um Christian counseling.

And that's emphasize Christian counseling because there's a there's I don't believe that you have to be a Christian to be a good counselor.

Okay.

That's not what I'm saying.

But what I'm saying is if you can find a good Christian counselor, they're at least bringing the biblical context into it.

So it's more redemptive, is what I've seen.

And I also believe it creates a sense of safety that invites the Holy Spirit in.

So that way you can you can really be vulnerable because a lot of times what it requires um is exploring some of these traumatic things um and allowing God to to heal and and redeem it.

And that's kind of the work that you get done in therapy.

But um all of the studies that I have done and the interactions that I've had with couples that have had struggles in these areas, a lot of times it's going back to almost understanding that divergent moment that kind of broke the way that they view um intimacy and honestly unraveling the shame that's attached to it.

Okay.

Because sadly what ends up happening is when something happens to someone that is experienced trauma, um, how did your family respond to it?

Did your family respond to it at all?

Um, did you tell anybody?

Did you feel powerless?

And so, oddly enough, and this is not to kind of get into any psycho babble, but the truth of the matter is we carry that with us.

So if a person has something that's happened to them, they shared it with someone and it was dismissed or minimized, um, they then can sometimes feel like it was their fault.

This is where it produces shame, and now they can feel powerless.

And what ends up happening with a person when they feel powerless, they're just engaging in things and they're not emotionally connected to it, but they don't feel like they have a voice because that's the pattern that's in their mind and that's been their lived experience.

So allowing people to recognize that what they experienced was bad, and and honestly recognizing that that the silence that they may have experienced was not good, but giving them a space to give that voice and honor that pain, you'd be amazed at how redemptive the Holy Spirit is in that.

And you can see the loving, nurturing hand of God and how he can heal and restore that.

So I would say it all centers around God, being in communities of faith, um, being in a safe place where you can explore those things without shame and allowing the Holy Spirit to do a work.

I've seen that literally transform um people's lives and marriages as a result of just being able to redeem something that we have kept covered up that we have not addressed, but we don't realize it's still affecting us.

Last last uh question for you, or topic uh on this subject would be you know, in the next chapter Paul addresses people who uh, you know, may be defined as unequally yoked, right?

Like somebody becomes a Christian while their spouse doesn't, vice versa, right?

I know that there are scenarios, even in our own church, where that has taken place.

What's your encouragement to them?

What's your um Yeah, I guess what's your your message to them or the best way for them to try and navigate through because you know we can read a couple paragraphs and go, that's what Paul says, but living out the nuance of that is is difficult, right?

Absolutely, it's very challenging, and I I can't imagine anything more practically challenging in the context of specifically if you're in a in a marriage where there's this this love, this connection and commitment, but you have this entire experience and part of your life that you're not able to share with them.

It's very it it can feel very isolating and very lonely.

And and so Paul's encouragement was okay, like, and this is where it kind of gets into like this power of redemption.

He's like, hey, the unbelieving wife is redeemed by the redeeming husband.

It almost kind of is a shadow or a reflection of the the the Ruth and Boaz story.

It's this idea of like how, and it's meant to be a glimpse of how even in the flaws, even in our unbelief, even in our brokenness, even in the areas of our fears and doubt, we're still redeemed because of the blood and because of our relationship to Jesus.

So Paul was saying, even in spite of the person's their commitment may not look the same to you, but you live it out in front of them and they are still being redeemed by the way that you live your life.

And I think that's a I think that's a hard but complex mystery.

Now, if we're talking about being in an environment that is hostile to the gospel or or very abusive, then I think that's a different conversation.

I think if a person is experiencing abuse, and this is really, really important, that that God has called us to honor commitment and covenant, but he has not called us to stay stuck in environments that are abusive and and harmful.

Okay.

So I think everyone has to come to their own conviction and conclusions on that.

I don't want to be the person that kind of gives you a three-point sermon on should you leave or not.

Okay.

But but I will say that if you are in an environment that is incredibly abusive and suppressive, that's where you have to explore like, is this God's best for me?

But I can tell you this, God did not intend for us to stay in abusive environments.

Even though this isn't marriage, I think it's something that's incredibly relevant, is that David was incredibly loyal, not only to God, but to Saul and to Saul's family.

But you'll notice that even in spite of the way that he lived his life with honor and respect, the only times that David ran away from Saul is when Saul was trying to kill him.

David was committed, he was loyal, he felt connected.

But the moment that he felt his life was in danger, he's like, I'm out.

I think that that's a beautiful image of how it should be for us.

If I'm in an environment where I feel like there is harm, then I have to make a decision as to whether or not this is this is a place of safety for me.

And I don't believe that that's what God would have for us.

So that's that's my my thing on that.

And I honestly believe that the the best next step is specifically again, this goes out to so many different people, but I'm I'm talking to folks that may be in our community, similar to what we're talking about before, man, reach out to us.

Yeah, like that could obviously be a good place to just kind of have a uh a conversation with someone that can at least walk alongside you.

We don't have all the answers, but we can certainly listen, we can pray, and then we can try to direct based off the situation.

So there is no blanket statements here.

I wish we could give it, but everything is nuanced, but that's where a good conversation is just letting um someone that you trust into your story and seeing how we can come alongside and help them.

Yeah.

I think too, it's important the Jesus bandate isn't a thing, you know.

I mean, even if you look at his life, he fled from people who are trying to stone him, you know, and he says, No one takes my life, I'm the one who gives it.

So I I think that's important to know, even in regards to to David as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's a great reference, man.

Pastor Keith, um you know, I haven't heard anything but appreciation for the fact that we're that we're visiting these subjects uh in you know, incongruence with the book of First Corinthians.

And so I appreciate you for for doing that and bringing our church along on this.

I'm sure everybody out there, especially within the celebration Orlando community, is appreciative of it, especially for this time today as we're just able to talk and discuss and have a dialogue a little bit more around it.

But before we before we sign off here, any any final words um in regard to this topic?

I think, I think, yeah, I'll say this, man.

Um I realize that everybody has their convictions and the areas where they feel like we need to take a stand, we need to make a comment.

The church needs to speak out on these things.

And and again, I'm I'm mindful, I'm sensitive to people's trauma, I'm sensitive to people's struggles, all the above.

And so there's a there's a space of my conviction has always been I will not elevate one sin above another.

I will not make one thing the bigger focus than everything else, because Paul's list is inclusive of a lot of stuff every time.

It's inclusive of greedy people, it's inclusive of a lot of things that we all wrestle with.

So I think sometimes people are like, but you need to talk about that more.

And it's like I talk about that in proportion to the way that I talk about everything else.

Um, but I I do want to say the topic of sexuality, it's it's so sensitive, specifically in our culture.

And so I think my my final my final take would be like we me have done extensive work with honestly vetting varying conclusions on this.

Because here's what I didn't consider um in my past ministry years.

I would say my life kind of has 10 years of ministry from lived experiences um and based off of things I was told, and then there's another 10 years after being exposed to different people and different things that has also helped to form my my theology and understanding of things.

Okay.

And and in my first 10 years, it was this is what we believe, this is why we believe it, and let's go this way.

My previous, my my my most recent ten years have been there are other people who are just as educated as these people who've landed on a completely separate, on a different side in this.

So I've been looking at both of these and still coming to my conclusions, but being like, wow, but I understand how they got there.

I see why people think the way that they think.

And so I think my biggest thing is you could hear everything we're saying, and you could quote from another PhD that has come to a different conclusion on some of these things, and that is okay.

We are just simply presenting it as as I understand it, as we understand it, based off of a lot of doctrine and orthodox Christianity and the best that we can, but we also know that our community gives space for people that may be reading some from some of these passages, and and they are just the same conviction that they feel that we feel about our stuff, they may feel about some of the things they come to, and that's okay.

So I think that's the thing that I want to try to presence in our church and in our community more than ever, is that life is complex and is nuanced, and there's people who's committed their lives work to some of the topics that we're talking about, and we're able to hit it for 30 minutes.

Um, but it's a reflection of thousands of years of research and experiences.

But I want people to understand that none of us have all the answers, but we're speaking as to what we understand God's word is with context and with scriptural support, but we're also understanding that people have come to different conclusions and we love them the same.

I just want to get out of the vilifying people because they come to different conclusions.

That's the thing that I think Paul was trying to get at, which is why that was the intro to his letter, is like, let's find unity in all of these things.

So I never want anyone to walk away with that's their stance, and their stance means they're standing against me.

That's never the interpretation.

It's always been this is how we understand it, but we're not standing against you.

We want to stand with you even if you have a different conviction than we do.

Yeah.

And if we're living a cruciformed life, at the end of the day, we kind of can get to that conclusion where our our conclusions aren't the conclusion, I guess, is what you're trying to say.

There's grace, man, and we're we're figuring it out.

But onward and upwards, brother.

Onward and upward.

And with that, we conclude our time here for our second episode of After the Message.

Pastor Keith, thank you so much.

Thank you, man.

And we will talk again here in a couple weeks.

Yes, looking forward to it.

Thank you for joining us to learn more about Celebration Orlando, a church devoted to reaching the lost, equipping the fountain, and helping the hurting.

Follow us on social media using the handle at celebrationorl or visit our website, celebrationorl.org.