After The Message | Corinth | Week 04

Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

Thank you for joining us to learn more about Celebration Orlando, a church devoted to reaching the lost, equipping the found, and helping the hurting.

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of After the Message.

If you're stumbling along this podcast, you are on the Celebration Church Orlando podcast, and this is a segment we like to call After the Message.

We're making history today because we're doing After the Message simultaneously in two cities of Florida, Orlando and Jacksonville, because I'm welcomed by my friend Petey Bingham.

How are you, my friend?

So good, Nate.

Man, I appreciate you having me, dude.

Thank you so much.

I'm I'm excited to be a part of history.

Let's go.

Yeah, it's it's being made today, and we can we can go ahead and jot your name in the in the annals of history, bro.

Hey, dude, I'm excited.

I expect a remembrance stone in front of the offices.

That's what I'm saying.

We can do that, except for the fact we don't own the offices, so we'll probably just have to pick it up and take us when we go.

But you know, that's okay.

That's okay.

Important.

Whatever.

Do we own anything?

Wow.

Okay.

Coming out the gate strong.

Uh Petey, you were you were with us during our Corinth series.

You know, you got to be with us last Sunday.

First of all, talk a little bit about what it's like preaching in Orlando, what it's like re rekindling the friendship in person with the Pittmans, all that good stuff, man.

Your connection with him goes way back, right?

It does, yeah.

Yeah, it was a lot of fun, man.

It was um, you know, I I had I have I've come down there a few times, you know, in the past and have recent history.

It's been uh I've I haven't been able to get down there.

So it was such a breath of fresh, fresh air to be able to head down there.

And um, and dude, I just want to say, like, it is just an incredible experience.

I really mean that.

I mean, just um I I uh I was I mean obviously like the experience in general, you know, obviously like the Lord was there, it was beautiful.

Um, but gosh, just the people in Orlando might be some of the nicest people I've ever met in my entire life.

Like I dude, it was I was standing outside in the courtyard of the church outside, and it was like, God, it had to be like 135 degrees out there, and I was sweating up a storm, and uh, and and it just seems like it was it was five minutes long, and we were out there for an hour after both services talking with people, and um, everybody was just so kind and so nice.

And I mean, like, it's just very clear that there's such a strong presence of family in Orlando, and so man, it was just so much fun to be a part of.

And um, and yeah, and you're right, you know, being able to be there and see all and see the Pittmans.

And um, you know, I've been doing ministry with the Pittmans, gosh, for way over.

I mean, it's probably been close to 15 years, it's been forever.

Really?

And uh really, yeah, yeah.

We we actually um fun fact, back in the day, we came on staff in Jacksonville um at very similar times.

I want to say that Pastor Keith came on for groups, and I came on as a worship leader um and a youth pastor back in those days, and uh and we it was very similar times that we came on.

So we were kind of in a a class that came in together, so to speak.

So, you know, it's been it's been a so but anyway, all that to say, dude, it was so much fun.

I honestly I can't wait to come back and hang out and be with everybody.

And um, I already made some some new friendships, you know, so I haven't been there so long.

So it was just really cool, man.

And you guys are just doing it's God's doing something beautiful in Orlando, man.

I really mean that.

Amen.

I'll receive that.

What um outside of um I don't know, whatever you do now with the church, I don't know if you're leading worship and teaching youth anymore, but uh outside of that, uh, I know that you're involved in higher education.

What's what's your role um with Southeastern?

Uh yeah, so um, so yeah, so for the, you know, so oh gosh.

Okay, well, the the truth is, is I um um I absolutely love what I do.

I mean, I'm so blessed.

The Lord's done such incredible things, you know.

So I have the opportunity to work in full-time ministry, but at the same time be involved on the scholarly side of things.

And uh to make a long story short, I uh, you know, I've really felt this call from God for a long time to bridge the gap between the church and academics.

You know, and sometimes you can get those those extremes where it's like, you know, it's all about church and you know, uh, who cares about the recent research, you know, it's whatever.

And then you have academics where it's like, ah, no, none of those people are well studied, or you know, and there just becomes this weird like debate about it.

Yeah.

But what I found is that tension is just so unnecessary.

And so um, um, so I really feel so blessed that God has put me in a position to do both.

And so now um I have the opportunity to work in full-time mission uh ministry work, you know, where I oversee like all the ministries in Jacksonville.

But simultaneous to that, um, you know, I went to school, um, I got my PhD in biblical studies, and um, and then now I have the opportunity to work uh in some scholarly circles, you know, like working on um certain like, you know, academic forward-moving processes with different topics and stuff.

Um, and then to your point, I have the opportunity to work with SEU and I'm a uh professor there and uh, you know, teach a lot of theology classes and some practical ministry classes and stuff, and uh, and and some biblical studies classes.

So that's that's truly one of the highlights of my life.

And then all the while, you know, um kind of uh interestingly enough, bridging the church into academics and at the same time bridging academics into the church and kind of doing that back and forth has been such a fun blessing, you know, element.

So um, so anyway, yeah, that's that's kind of at the moment what I'm up to day to day.

What was your thesis and your dissertation?

Oh man, you want this podcast to be four hours long?

Um so sure.

So I uh I I focus on hamardiology.

Uh Hamartia is sin in Greek.

And so I uh I literally have a PhD in sin.

And uh so I wrote my dissertation um on cosmic homardiology, meaning um sin as viewed in terms of the cosmos and less about the individual and how that impacts the individual when you look at it through a cosmic lens.

So essentially, essentially, what my dissertation did was sought to uh make the case that um it is helpful to view sin as though it is representative of a chaos monster.

And to do that, I uh in the dissertation developed a hermeneutic based on apocalyptic reading of Paul as a means to make a case for viewing sin as a cosmic chaos monster.

So yeah, so I realize that's um pretty convoluted, but um, but it was a lot of fun, man.

It was it was really uh uh uh to be honest, just what we're speaking about before, a big reason for doing that was I was I one of the things I noticed in ministry was that um, you know, you go to churches and some people talk about sin, some people overemphasize sin.

Uh some people you ask what sin is and they'll tell you one thing.

You ask other people, they'll tell you another.

And I realized quickly that sin is this massive topic in Christianity that there's that, you know, there seems to be a lot of answers for.

And uh, and simultaneously I also watched, you know, um, in a pastoral setting, that when people are dealing with sin, you know, it's easy for us to get to the place where uh, you know, when people are trying to get out of those sinful patterns and stuff, that we basically just put them to a place of behavior modification, you know.

So we just basically say, hey, you're stuck in sin, so you need to change, right?

But um, you know, in my in my experience, both individually and as a pastor, that just doesn't work.

And so a lot of the work was like, all right, God, lead me to a place to be able to pastor people through sin well.

And um, and that's where it led me was to that dissertation and that perspective.

So it's yeah, it's it was so much fun, and I love it.

And um, it's uh it truly is uh a like like something I've become nationally.

It's it's weird to say you're passionate about sin, you know, but it's true.

I am.

I've I've I've gotten to that point.

So here we are.

It's great that even what you mentioned kind of at the top was how the pastor in you needed to be coupled with the academic in you in order to come to this understanding of of what you needed in order not only to pastor but also to equip others.

You know what I mean?

Um so I I like the fact that that what you set out maybe not what you set out to do, but what you're doing now is actually working practically within the church and academia as well.

Yeah.

Well, and it even touches on what you what you preached on Sunday with sin being looked at very individualized and it not being um it not being something that impacts more than just yourself, because you you talked a lot about how Christian liberty is often viewed.

And I guess my first question to you is is is the American mindset or the American philosophy, are we reading into the scriptures, personal liberty into that, or maybe even just not American, but a Western view of what a personal freedom is?

Are we reading that in?

Or did Corinth experience the same thing that we're thinking of as well?

Like, well, it's my freedom, it's my right, so I can do whatever I want.

Dang, loaded question out the gate.

I love it.

Let's go.

Yeah, um let's go.

Let's go.

Yeah, I think in in in in uh in a lot of ways, you're right, you know, that um, you know, uh, you know, that that dissonance that exists, you know, we it's oftentimes what we do is we talk a lot about legalism, you know, and you know, it's uh, you know, being straight on the book, you know, and and all that stuff your way away from legalism.

But the truth is, you know, while legalism is at one extreme, on the other extreme of things is license.

And that is to say that I take my freedom for granted because I know that the you know that God is forgiving and that Jesus will, you know, has grace for me and stuff.

The truth is both of those things are equally as problematic.

Um, because when you're when you're stuck in legalism or you're stuck in license, you've actually missed the beauty of what it means to be in relationship with Jesus and really experience that freedom at a new level.

Um, you know, technically, well, well, I'll I'll say this.

Um you know, our world is very, let's say, pluralistic and postmodern.

So what that means is um there's a lack of belief of absolute truth, um, which is a whole other issue.

Um, and then the other side of that, the pluralistic side, is, you know, that freedom has become um basically whatever you believe, I'll give you the freedom to believe that and I'm okay with it, you know?

And so that's that's a pluralistic kind of worldview, um, at least in this terms, in terms of freedom.

And uh what's funny is uh that was actually the the very same in Corinth, you know, in Corinth, it was a very pluralistic society, um, where you know, you know, it was a big melting pot of people where a lot of people um from all around the world um gathered at this really affluent port city, um, not only to make money, but also to worship at their big famous temples.

And they were building these temples there because the money was there to build them.

And so, you know, they were doing like temples and stuff, and it was very pluralistic.

And it was like, you know, I think uh what's interesting about the first century is how um, you know, that like atheism wasn't really a thing, you know.

It wasn't, hey, do you worship God?

It was which God do you worship?

And so there was this perceived freedom in them to choose which God they worship in that regard.

And so, you know, they were dealing with a very similar problem.

And so now you fast forward into the Western church, and the truth is we're dealing with the same thing, you know.

Um, sometimes we don't call it gods, but remember in that passage of scripture we covered this weekend, uh Paul's very clear that there are little g gods and little and little l lords, you know, and whether you see them that way or you don't, it's easy to worship them as though they are.

And uh I think we live in a society where um, to your point, you know, where freedom has become much more about me than it is about the whole.

Um and honestly, uh the you know, just kind of tying this back into the to the question about, you know, like talking through sin and stuff, um I think when it comes to liberty, it's helpful to look at it in an appropriate way as to I would also argue you should look at sin.

Right.

So so it's it's interesting.

You have Christian liberty and you have sin, but the truth is I I think it's actually helpful to look at them similarly.

So think about it like this.

So oftentimes what we do, to your point in the West, is we'll take a chunk of scripture, yeah, and we'll read it.

And here's like our hermeneutic, uh her all hermeneutic is is like a methodology and a way in which you read the Bible, right?

So let's just say um, in general, and I realize I'm generalizing here, okay, but just in general, typically our hermeneutic in the West has been this.

All right, when I read the scripture, how does it apply to me?

How does it apply to the collective, meaning more people than just me?

Sometimes we get to the point of how does this apply to creation, like the world?

And then the last layer of that, which oftentimes we never even get to at all, is the cosmos.

And by cosmos, I mean um both heaven and earth together.

It's both the spiritual and physical reality of what that interpretation of that scripture may be.

Yeah.

And I would, I would argue to your point about liberty, um, when we go and we talk about Christian freedom, oftentimes we read it like that.

It's like, what does that mean for me?

What does that mean for the whole?

What does that mean for creation?

What does that mean for the cosmos?

My argument would be I actually think it's healthy to flip that upside down and say, all right, well, what is Christian liberty at a cosmic level?

And what does that mean for all of creation?

And what does that mean for the body?

And now what does that mean for me individually?

And so by the time it trickles down to you, now you have intrinsically considered not just God vertically, but also those around you because you've worked your way through that process.

So the first question you ask is, well, what at a cosmic level, what is freedom?

It is it is um breaking free of the bondage that sin has on you.

And no longer are you um, no longer do you have to be prisoner to those evil days.

But instead, this is what um Paul says in Ephesians, right?

It's like these days are evil, but with Jesus, with Jesus, now I can come together in the collective as a means to be able to, because of the life and work of Jesus, us as the body now have the ability to break free of those chains because of what Jesus has done for us.

So now by the time it works its way down, now freedom is, oh, actually, Christian liberty to me is inclusive of the whole and should be considered that way.

And so part of my liberty is the fact that I get to share in it with others.

And that's what flipping that hermeneutic upside down will help you kind of see.

Does that make any sense?

Yeah, it does.

And I think one mistake we often make is whenever we read the Bible, we always read it through a devotional lens of what is God saying to me instead of what's the author saying?

You know, like what what other piece of writing do you look at and go, man, what is what is the Constitution saying to me?

Like, no, what did Thomas Jefferson and all those other guys what are they trying to say?

You know what I mean?

I I don't know, I don't know where we get that from.

I'm I understand the importance of wanting to apply, but there are spaces where it's like, well, let's just try and discover what the original intent was, and maybe we can then find out how it's applicable to 21st century PD and A, right?

Yeah, dude.

Well said, beautifully said.

I love that.

Yes.

Absolutely.

You talked about You talked about the the issue of sin in there, and I guess I want to, since you wrote a dissertation on it, I figure I'd ask you the question.

We don't necessarily grasp the gravity of Jesus overcoming sin on the cross.

You know what I mean?

It's it we almost look at it as like uh okay, he did something he did something in my stead or he did something in my place that maybe uh the punishment should have been taken out on me, and that's true.

But the Bible also tells us that he overcame or he overthrew the power of sin.

So that tells me that there was a time period where sin, the power of sin, and whoever is controlling those powers, you know, we would broadly categorize that as the enemy, actually had power and dominion, right?

And so can you talk a little bit about that and maybe how on this side of the new covenant, on this side of the death, burial, and resurrection, we don't feel it as much as maybe somebody who was on the other side of it.

Does that make sense?

What I'm asking.

That does make sense, yeah.

Uh oh geez, we're gonna be here for four hours.

I'm just kidding.

Um, all right.

Uh you cracked open this can, so uh let's do it.

Let's um let's drink it.

So um, so yeah, so I think you're right.

Um so the first thing I'll say is this, you know, um, when it comes to like atonement, right?

So Jesus' atoning sacrifice, you know, what did it do and what were the implications of it?

Um I think one of the most helpful illustrations I've ever heard about the atonement um comes from this scholar named Scott McKnight, if you've heard of him.

Yep.

And uh yeah, he's an incredible dude, New Testament scholar, awesome guy.

And uh he basically draws the analogy that, you know, think about it, you have all these atonement models.

So to your point, like substitutionary and you know, just this array of different um models that are out there.

Yeah.

And uh and what he says is what the best way to do it is not necessarily choose one over the other, but instead treat it like a like a golf bag.

So there's times where you pull, you know, I'm not a great golfer, so I'm not gonna be good at this illustration, but like, you know, there's times and you pull an eight iron, and that's the club you hit, and then there's times you need your driver, and then there's times that you need your, you know, pitching wedge, and then there's times you use a putter.

So in his mind, like the best illustration is to say, like, don't throw all the models away.

It's more so to use them based upon um whatever perspective by which you're kind of the theological rabbit trail you're going down.

That said, um, I agree with you.

I think oftentimes we get into that penal substitution, um, you know, thought pattern of like, you know, him, you know, atoning sacrifice kind of stuff.

Um, but the model you're more speaking to is what we call Christas Victor, um, which is a really um to me, it's it's it's uh it's one of the probably most underutilized perspectives of the atonement.

It's it let me put it this way it's a golf club that we don't use often, and I feel like we should use it more.

Okay.

Uh because I think you can hit that ball well.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, for sure.

Okay.

Yeah, for sure.

So um, so so here's here's how we'll go about this.

Um, so I think uh I think one of the questions, you know, the the truth is like understanding sin, it's it's just weird, you know.

The the concept of sin is a bizarre one because it's got both physical and supernatural spiritual components to it, all that wrapped into this problem of evil and how it's used and how it's utilized, you know.

So it's it can it can get rather complex.

So um, you know, I think one of the most helpful questions that you can ask is okay, well, through what look just using the same language, through what hermeneutic is sin presented to us in the Bible?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So um, so if you track it, uh here's what's really interesting about it.

Um, the word sin in Hebrew, it's this word kata, C-H-A-T-A.

Um, it's actually a military term.

It's it means it's like uh if you're an archer and you're practicing you know your archery skills and you're shooting at a target and you miss the bullseye, that shot is called a kata.

Okay.

Right?

So it's literally missed the mark is what it means.

But that's the word that's utilized in Hebrew to describe sin.

And so if you go and trace it um in scripture, what's really interesting is your intuition would say that the first time you see the word is gonna be in the fall, right?

In Genesis three with Adam and Eve.

Now, hear me.

Um, obviously what Adam and Eve did was a sinful behavior.

Okay, you know what I mean?

So obviously it is, but interestingly enough, the word sin does not show up there.

So is it a sinful act?

Yes, but it's not called sin yet.

It's really interesting, you know?

So uh the first time that we see the word katah, in other words, the first mention in the Bible of the word katah is believe it or not, not with Adam and Eve, though it was a sin, but it's not with them, it's actually with the Cain and Abel story.

And uh, if you remember how that goes, is Genesis 4.

What happens is uh Cain and Abel are making offerings to God, they're obviously outside of the uh gates at this point.

And um Abel has a better offering to give God than Cain, and Cain's pretty upset about it, right?

So Cain um obviously kind of resorts to something that mirrors more the fall than any sort of act of love in their family.

And so what he does is, and so so think about it this way, right?

If we were to say that sin in and of itself is merely a behavior, like a bad behavior, right?

Then what we would think that God says to Cain is this.

We would think that God would look at Cain and say, Hey, Cain, cool your jets, bro, because you're about to commit the sin of murder.

But interestingly enough, that is not what God tells Cain.

What God tells Cain in the narrative is it says, Hey, cool your jets, Cain, because sin is crouching at the door.

So the first time that you see the mention of sin, again, what Adam and Eve did was a sinful behavior, and what Cain did is a sinful behavior.

But how God addresses it is he says, sin is crouching at the door.

So why does it read that way?

So if you read it in Hebrew, the actual phrase is kata, which means sin.

And then it's the next word is robes, R-O-B-E-S.

There's obviously English letters, but um khata robes.

So it's two Hebrew words that make up an entire sentence in English.

And the word robess is actually um borrowed from a more ancient language than Hebrew.

Um and uh this language is called Akkadian, and uh and the Akkadian word that the word robes that we get crouching at the door from, it comes from this word rabisu.

And uh if you go and study the rabisu, the rabisu is actually an ancient mythological creature.

And what the rabisu does is um so imagine that imagine that you have like a doorway, yeah, right?

Yeah.

And um the door to that doorway is open, and I'm standing in this room and I can see through to the other room on the other side of the door, yeah, right.

Yeah.

The rabisu did is it was this mythical creature and it would hide on the other side of the door, on the other side of the threshold, and would hide and crouch down on the other side so that you can't see it.

So when I, this is the Akkadian story, so then when I walk through that threshold and leave this domain and go into another domain, that Rabisu creature is crouched down and I can't see it.

I walk into that domain, the Rabisu creature stands up, sneaks behind me, and it bites me in the neck and imparts its evil into me and now has control over me.

And now my body is under the control of evil.

And check this out, Nate.

You didn't even know it happened.

So Rabisu, believe it or not, is actually one of the original places that we get Dracula from.

Wow.

So what's interesting about that is that the first mention of sin in the Bible actually calls back to an ancient mythological story that predates biblical Hebrew.

Now, I'm not saying that sin is Dracula, right?

But I am saying that the author of Genesis 4 is utilizing that as a hermeneutic for us to better understand sin.

That it is this animalistic thing in creation that now that we have moved through a threshold from one domain to another, now desires to sneak up behind, impart its evil in you, set your eyes on something other than Jesus.

Well, you know, in their case, God and Yahweh, but yeah, I got you, subconsciousness, Jesus, set our eyes on something other than Jesus and drive us away from God and deeper into that domain, leaving the other domain behind.

So sin then becomes the animalistic tool utilized by the enemy as a means to control and pull us farther from God.

So I say that to say, circling back to your question, what the author of Genesis 4 is doing is presenting to us a cosmic understanding of the influence of sin on creation and therefore humanity, which means cosmic problems require cosmic solutions.

Yeah.

So in other words, like think about this.

Um, you know, uh, it's an interesting question to explore um nowadays in our context, if Jesus has defeated sin and the grave, right?

And death, sin, death, and the grave, if that's the case, then explain to me why when I give my loyalty and allegiance to Jesus and I step into the reality of salvation, um, why do I still have to face sin every day?

You know?

Part of the answer, part of that answer is that Jesus is our cosmic victor.

He's our Christus victor.

That's the atonement model.

So the idea is me, Nate, and the Pittmans, nobody in and of themselves have the ability within them to be the solution to a cosmic problem because our and ourselves are not cosmic.

We needed a cosmic king to make that, you know, reality.

So now think about it like this.

Within the confines of Eden, the only thing woven into creation in and of itself is God's spirit, spirit of wisdom, you know, the ruach in Hebrew.

It's what it's what weaves its way through all of creation.

The moment that they stepped out into the wilderness, God's goodness is still there, God's spirit's still there, but there's a new ingredient, something else has emerged.

This rabisu, this sin, right?

But what the life work of Jesus did in part through his victory was say, hey, listen, right now on this side of things, we have the ability in Christian liberty to be free from those chains.

In other words, we needed a cosmic, a cosmic victor to inform us that we've been bitten in the first place.

Got it.

And then help us, and then basically provide the means by which we can no longer look this way and look that way.

That's why the driving message is repent and be safe for the kingdom of God is at hand.

What does repent mean?

To stop looking this way and start looking that way.

It means to turn, you know?

Yeah.

So we recognize we've been bitten, we turn away from that, and we break the chains of that bondage that we have to that.

And now, because of our cosmic victor, the Christus victor, now we can confidently move forward to the kingdom.

And one day, the fulfillment and full culmination of that reality will be the new heaven, the new earth, where it's a restored Eden, so to speak, where now that sin, sin in and of itself, will also be thrown into a lake of fire, no longer existing, cosmic problem, no longer being a cosmic problem.

And we together will be broken free from those chains and now live in perfect harmony together in new heaven, new earth for all of eternity with only God's spirit there.

Sin no more, spiritual evil, no more.

Only God's goodness in light of the entire story of redemption that is played out.

Does that make sense?

Sounds like a pretty pretty good game, man.

Yeah, dude.

Yeah, it's that's what I say.

It's a fun atonement model, you know, because it's it's it's a um it's a it's a club that we can hit really well, and I don't know that we pull it as often as we should.

Yeah, for sure.

The the crouching at your door just kind of reminds me a little bit of the subversiveness of evil power and how that is a little bit connected to the idol discussion we had.

Um, where there's I guess my question is, do you look at something as an idol with a power behind it?

In other words, is there a spiritual force behind that idol?

Because I guess you could take a theory that go, and even scripture talks, well, that's just carved wood, that's just stone, you know, but is there something greater behind that?

Uh, number one, you know, what is that?

And for us in the modern context, what are our idols?

And a lot of times we can throw around, well, you know, your idol is TV or your idol is this or that, but are there powers behind our modern idols that are biting us in the neck that we're not even aware of?

Oh, dang.

Good question.

Um, yeah, I think um, well, to answer, so I'll give you the short answer and the long answer.

The short answer is, yeah, for sure.

You know, even Paul teaches us that uh the battle's not against flesh and blood, you know, it's against powers and principalities and rulers in this in the air, you know.

So it's like a it's a um there is very spiritual elements to some of those idols.

The truth is, what I have found is that um, you know, idols and spiritual evil have as much power as you give them.

Okay, you know, okay.

So that's part of that's part of what it, that's part of what Paul is saying in that passage in Corinthians is he's saying, like, you know, um if you don't give that idol power, it doesn't have it, you know, and that's why you say you can eat the meat.

So like you're good.

Just don't let your brothers don't let your brot brother stumble, you know.

So like um there's liberty in that.

But it comes with a caveat, you know, uh, because you're right.

Um, those things can certainly possess um some spiritual evil powers.

Um okay, so here's a here's another little nerd pathway.

You ready for this?

So uh here's a fun fact.

Um the word idol in Hebrew, it's the word um salem.

Starts with a T, which is weird, but it's uh in English.

T S E L E M.

Salem.

Okay.

And um, so like if you go look it up in uh, you know, like the um Ten Commandments, for example, right?

That you should have no idol before me.

Right?

And that's interesting language, by the way.

Hold on to that.

Like you should have no idol before me.

Uh-huh.

Okay.

Then what's crazy is um the word salem can be translated as idol, but guess what other word you can translate it to?

Image.

So what's weird is in all the way back in Genesis again, when God makes uh humanity in his image, it's the same word as idol.

But obviously we translate it differently because you know the the context behind it is is key.

So it's gonna be weird if you read idol in your in the Genesis, you're like, what is that?

You know what I mean?

How's this?

How do I reconcile that?

You know, so it almost becomes too much.

Um, but here's the here's what's crazy.

So what an what an what an idol is is representative of something else, right?

At its core.

Okay.

So um, so let's take for instance, um, do you remember the story with um Shadrach, Meshach, and Nebendigo?

Yeah.

And uh Nebuchadnezzar comes along, the king of Babylon, and he builds this giant statue.

And uh, and that obviously, as we know, that giant statue is described as an idol, it's a Salem, right?

Okay, and basically what those things were made for is um keep in mind, like this is this is a world where um, you know, they didn't have private jets and helicopters and YouTube, you know what I mean?

So they weren't, you know, it was travel was a rough go.

So Nebuchadnezzar um had to find a way to put himself in more than one place at one time.

So what they would do is they'd make these idols and they'd build these giant statues and they would throw this big rich where basically the spirit of Nebuchadnezzar would, or the king in general, I'm just using Nebuchadnezzar as the example, would be put into this statue.

And everybody in the village or the marketplace or the city or whatever it was, um, they would understand that that statue is an idol of Nebuchadnezzar.

That statue is an image of Nebuchadnezzar.

In other words, that statue represents Nebuchadnezzar, and therefore I have to bow to it.

And so it's a honestly, in a lot of ways, it's fear-mongering.

But the truth is it it had power in that kind of way.

And it was, and here's the thing, it was very oppressive, right?

So go back to creation story when God fastens together humanity, you know, makes from the dust of the earth, makes a shell, and then breathes his life into him, and here's the image, right?

What that means is that God made humanity to be an image of himself, to be an idol of himself, meaning we are representatives of God who rule and reign with him in creation, right?

Yeah, which means that we being made in the image are not to make any other idols before God.

So, as weird as this sounds, it's possible to be an idol who makes an idol of something other than you what you idol.

Does that make sense?

You can make you are an idol who can make an idol of something that you actually weren't made an idol of.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

That's why the commandment says, Don't make an idol, uh uh don't make an idol of another God before me, because we are representatives of God made in his image, which means that all of humanity is made in God's image, but not all choose to be a child.

You know, you make that decision and you step into that.

And so um, so I say all that to say that all at its core, what an idol is, is it is something that represents something else.

And what idolatry does is takes that idol and worships it at highest priority.

So if I worship an idol of Nebuchadnezzar, that is idolatry because I am worshiping the representative of Nebuchadnezzar, which means I am worshiping Nebuchadnezzar and therefore putting an idol before God.

Whereas what I'm supposed to do as the image is recognize that I am an ambassador for the kingdom on the earth who worships God and God alone.

And outside of worshiping him, anything else becomes idolatry because I'm worshiping something that represents something that's not him.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely.

And something you mentioned on Sunday that I don't know if I'd ever heard before or ever really considered was that demons and these lower G gods are synonymous.

Did I hear you correctly when you said that?

Because I almost look at like a spiritual force that's a god as not a demon.

But maybe when I really think about it, yeah, it's kind of the same thing, right?

Oh, dang.

Dude, you're just loaded with good questions, thank you.

Well done.

Um yeah, so uh this gets a little bit convoluted too.

Um oh man.

Um, so um, okay, well, okay, so remember, um, to a New Testament audience, when you say scriptures, you're actually speaking about the Tanakh, the Old Testament.

Correct.

They didn't have the New Testament yet.

So when they're talking about gods, though it's in Greek, what they're speaking about is the Hebrew text, which you know the Septuagint would eventually come along, and that was the you know, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible and stuff, you know, whatever.

But anyway, when they're speaking about that stuff, that's this that's the scripture they're referring to.

So um um, what's interesting is that the word God in Hebrew is this word Elohim, E-L-O-H-I-M, Elohim.

And um God himself, at first, in the very beginning, and you know, uh in the creation story, is referred to as Elohim, referred to as God.

Um, but eventually his name changes.

Uh, and we'll take on a few different names, obviously, as far as Jehovah and all that stuff is concerned.

Um, but eventually he'll reveal his name to Moses in the burning bush as Yahweh, right?

Um, and and uh, but what you'll notice is when you go through and you read the Bible, the Old Testament in particular, you'll notice that more often than not, Yahweh is referred to as the most high God.

You ever notice that?

Right?

So that language is very particular.

It says the most high God.

Why does it say it like that?

Because isn't there one God?

You know what I mean?

Like yes, of course there's one God of Israel.

But it's be it's a Hebrew, it's a he it's a Hebrew barrier.

So the truth is, um, Elohim is is the word that is used to describe anything that is supernatural.

Anything that is supernatural.

So like uh remember when Joshua has the um encounter with the commander of the angel armies in that story?

That thing is referred to as an Elohim because it's spiritual in nature.

Okay.

Um, the those those sorts of incidents of uh in fact, uh, do you remember when um oh gosh, Saul goes to the witch of Endor?

Yeah, the witch of Endor.

Yeah, Saul goes to the witch of Endor and asks to um like conjure up the spirit of Samuel.

Remember that?

Yeah, when Samuel shows up, the Bible refers to him as an Elohim, okay, which translates to God.

So all that that means is Elohim in Hebrew, which we translate as God, just means something that is supernatural.

So what we've done over time is we refer to Yahweh as the most high God, capital G.

Anything that is spiritual but evil gets a lowercase g.

Um, actually, that's not true.

Um, anything that is anything that is supernatural in general gets a lowercase g, including spiritual evil is probably the most accurate way to do it.

Okay.

So yeah, so um that that that was a supernatural worldview that they would have had back then.

That yeah, there are other supernatural beings that have perceived power, and if you give it to them real power, um, that you know can influence things within creation, but they're supernatural by nature.

So anytime you see a lowercase g, it is referring to a supernatural entity that's not the most high god, but is just simply a supernatural.

So, like even an angel is a lowercase g god, or a demon can be considered that sort of a way.

They're powers and principalities and that sort of thing.

So it's it's really just a language barrier more than anything else, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely.

I got time for one more, and it's it's a little nerdy, but I don't know.

Maybe I should have done my own research on it.

But in the Jerusalem Council, don't they, whenever they're trying to figure out how to integrate Gentiles into this new way of being, you know, the way, right?

They come up with a few things that you that you don't have to do or that you do have to do.

I thought one of those was eating meat sacrificed to idols, right?

And then later on in Corinthians, Paul says, hey, don't worry about it unless the Christian liberty thing comes into play.

Did that change?

Like, what happened to that, dude?

What a dude, what a good you know it's it's so funny you say that because I actually had that in my notes and I chickened out of saying it because I was too afraid it was gonna take time.

So good.

You saved it for after the message, that's what you did.

Um, yeah, dude, that's a fantastic question.

So um it's what is that, Acts 16?

I don't remember the chapter.

16, 16, some somewhere in that in that range.

Um so okay, so to make a long story short, um Paul and Barnabas return back from their first missionary journey.

And um, and and they go back and they start telling people about like how amazing, you know, this this ministry to the Gentiles has gone.

Um, you know, and it's been such a, you know, like like God's doing incredible things, you know, and just it's it's an incredible, you know, just work of move of God that's happening, obviously.

So what happens is um obviously there's some dissension when it comes to the inclusion of the Gentiles.

In fact, even you know, in the book of Ephesians, like uh Paul refers to the inclusion of the Gentiles as um the mystery of the gospel, you know, that like it's it's it's open to all nations.

And so the truth is, like that was a um that was a hard pill for some to swallow.

And so um, so what they decided to do is they came together, they called a council because there's a lot of people that were like, how A, what it's not fair that like the Gentiles are in here, and also like they need to be circumcised, you know, like there's all you know, there's all these questions about like how they live their life, and da-da-da-da.

So what they decide to do is they call a council um led by uh James, brother of half-brother of Jesus.

And uh, you know, Peter's there, and obviously Paul's there, and he goes up from Antioch to Jerusalem to have it.

And basically the goal was to um, as a council, codify, meaning, you know, put on paper and reconcile what it looks like for the Gentile inclusion.

And then Paul, literally on his second missionary journey, took that letter with him and delivered that news um on a similar path, but actually kind of expanded out.

Like he ended up in like Thessalonica and stuff on the second one, but would take that letter with him and say, like, here's what it means now that you're a part of the family.

I say all that to say that um what was happening there was he was he was um part of the the codification was in twofold.

It was to say, number one, um the inclusion of the Gentiles is a thing.

You know what I mean?

So like basically to silence the naysayers, like it's a thing.

And so, like to basically to the Jewish crowd, hey, you guys, this is the reality, and we're we're gonna have to learn to accept it.

You know what I mean?

And and what that looks like.

But then turns to then the letter itself turns to the gentile crowd and and lists off, I think it's four things, including, you know, the um, you know, the various forms of idolatry and, you know, eating meat and that sort of thing.

And uh, but the truth is there's more behind what those standards are than just the standards themselves.

Because interestingly enough, what is being taught in the in the decision that's made by the Jerusalem Council is the same message that Paul is teaching in First Corinthians eight.

And that is simply this.

Um, hey, you're free, you're free, but when you're around your Jewish friends, don't do this.

Right?

Because it's um in that case, A, not only could it cause them to stumble, but then again, they weren't practicing any, you know, like, you know, they weren't practicing that sort of stuff of a force.

So the stumbling thing is less of an issue, more so than it is, um, you know, they would come into contact with things that were impure, like ritualistically impure, and that would be something that would turn the Jews away and therefore create division within the church.

So, what the really at the core principle of the Jerusalem Council was to look at the Jews and say the Gentiles are in and look at the Gentiles and say, Hey, you need to be considerate of your Jewish brother.

So don't rub it, in other words, don't rub it in their face that you're now included.

You know, it's like, ha ha, I got you, and then take a you know, a bite of your meat, you know, whatever, and just make them more mad.

So, really, the decisions made at the Jerusalem Council, while they seem very finite, it's the principle that's important.

Important.

It's like the law.

You know, we pull principles from the law, we still apply them.

You know, that's how this works is it was a means of saying, as a Gentile, you should not do things that will provoke your brother to division.

And the more that you provoke to division, that division's actually your fault now.

So that's the message.

So he was carrying this letter around.

And remember, the first place he would go would be like a synagogue.

So he would go to a synagogue, he would, you know, say, Hey, Gentiles are in, just so you guys know.

And then we went to the Gentiles, he would say, Hey, when you're with your Jewish friends, they're struggling to get this.

So make sure that you steward this well.

That includes you probably shouldn't re-eat something they wouldn't, you probably, you know what I mean?

Like making sure that he's giving them a list of things to abstain from as a means to not create division.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely, man.

Absolutely, man.

That's the underlying message of that.

That's a great question.

Yeah.

Well done.

Yeah.

Well, I think we covered enough to give people to think about for the next couple days.

So and and plus I have a meeting in three minutes and it's a block and a half away, so I need to get going.

But anyways.

Dude, thank you.

Seriously, genuinely, thank you so much.

Not only for Sunday, but for taking some time out of your day today to talk with us.

And uh I hope to have you back soon, man, because it's been great for me, and I know it'll be a blessing to other people who are taking part of it as well.

Oh man, that's so kind, Nate.

I really appreciate that, man.

And I just um I can't, I can't, I can't tell you strong enough how grateful I am for you and the team and the Pittmans.

Um God's doing something really special in Orlando, man, and I'm just um I'm so grateful that y'all would trust me and let me just play a little bit of a role.

That's that's a lot of fun.

And I just want you and everybody listening to know that um all of y'all are constantly in prayers and um always being prayed for and thought about and interceded for.

So um thank you for the work of the ministry that y'all do.

Appreciate it, man.

And for everybody listening slash watching, uh, I think we got a couple episodes left here in this season, so make sure you stick around.

But Petey, thanks again, dude.

Thank you for joining us to learn more about Celebration Orlando, a church devoted to reaching the lost, equipping the found, and helping the hurting.

Follow us on social media using the handle at celebrationorl or visit our website, celebrationorl.org.