After The Message | Corinth | Week 07

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All good things must come to an end.

That's what they say, man.

Unfortunately.

Unfortunately.

And this Corinth series is coming coming to an end.

Except for, like I said yesterday, the chosen ones who are in the Corinth group.

Who's in the groups, and I'm leading a virtual group, and you're leading the group.

That's right.

Yes.

So Corinth lives on at Celebration Church Orlando, and we want to welcome you to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

This is a segment we like to call after the message.

And it's simply a conversation from um the previous Sunday sermon, in this case, the previous series that we've been in here.

Corinth looking at the birth the letter of First Corinthians.

Pastor Keith, welcome to our last installment this season.

How are you feeling?

I feel great, man.

It's it's kind of like sad.

I realize the amount of work that this series takes.

I'm grateful that we've been able to have uh a different voices in it.

You know, we have Pastor Petey, we have Vinny, we have you.

So I'm grateful that we've had such a collection of people.

But the the the Keith that was passionate about this series when we started it, like I've only preached in like a couple of them.

So I'm like, man, like I feel like I got still more to say, but it's okay.

So 2 Corinthians in 2025.

You know what?

You've heard it here first, guys.

Speaking of Petey, uh He was our last guest on After the Message, and we had a good dialogue, and we um just discussed, you know, what he brought to the table in regard to Christian liberty.

And I just kind of wanted to give you some space to be able to comment on that as well.

Uh I know you and I were uh well, I guess the whole staff we were kind of discussing the Thursday before, you know, what's Sunday gonna look like, what's Petey gonna be talking about and stuff.

And so I know it's an area of passion for you, just trying to find that proper uh balances of the right word, but the proper way of living, you know, now that we have this new freedom in Christ.

But yeah, let's talk about Petey's message a little bit and your thoughts on it.

Yeah, I thought he did a phenomenal job.

I mean, he he has obviously an immense amount of experience, not only just academically, but just I feel like Christian liberty really gets put to the test when you're in youth ministry because there's always people that are trying to like kind of what's the line and how could I get as close to the line as possible?

And you're trying your best, depending on like your on-ramp into the faith.

My on-ramp into the faith has always been very legalistic.

And what I understand is that there's some people that may be part of our community that don't even know what I mean when I say legalistic.

But I think Petey did a phenomenal job in his message with saying, like, hey, this is the line, and you better not cross it.

And if you do this, then you're going to hell.

So that's what I mean by legalistic.

So my on-ramp into the faith was one that was rooted in a God who seemed inconsolable.

And like, you know, if you do what I tell you to do, then we're good.

If not, good luck.

Like, that's kind of what I was raised with.

So everything was really works-based.

Even reading the Bible was works-based, prayer was works-based.

So when I got exposed to like this God of love and grace and joy, and I'm like, I didn't even know this guy existed.

For me, it became this responsibility of understanding that we are to walk with God with fear and trembling, as scripture describes.

Like again, like the God who said, Take off your feet because you're standing, take off your shoes because you're standing on holy ground.

That God is still very real and he's still very present.

But also the God that says, Come boldly before the throne of grace, they're they're one and the same.

So, how do I hold the tension of understanding the holiness and sacredness of what God's inviting me into and understanding that there's a lifestyle that should be attached to it, while simultaneously understanding that God provides grace, and there's how many times shall you forgive?

Seven times seventy, like this this endless grace that's available.

And so I think that what Petey did a phenomenal job at is making sure that we understand that that we don't have license to do whatever we want, but we do have to understand that there's also this grace that when we fall short, there's grace available for us.

So I think that's the tension for me is is making sure that we are leading a community that always is pressing towards the high mark of our calling.

That's we're looking towards God's standard, and that's our desire is to live a life that that that honors Him, but also understanding that if we fall short, replace if when we fall short, grace is available.

So for me, that's kind of always been the tension.

And I think I don't want to ramble, but I think the thing for me is that we've often approached Christianity with every issue as being a problem to be solved instead of a tension to be managed.

And I think if we can get out of the here's the right way, here's the wrong way, and start looking at here's a tension that we're always going to wrestle with.

And if we can embrace that, I think that we'll have more peace.

Yeah, and one of the things that was most profound about even the passage that he referred to was when you're sinning against your brother and six sister, you're actually sinning against God, you know, and so it it adds a little bit more weight and a little bit more gravity to well, let me yeah, I could probably do this, but let me let me think about it twice.

Is this gonna is this gonna be a problem for somebody else?

Because I could actually be sinning against someone else, you know.

Yep.

For you, in in the what, seven weeks that it's been, maybe maybe what are a couple of things that you've personally learned.

Um maybe it would be in your study or from a message or you know, just kind of reading the uh the letter to the church in Corinth.

What are some things, and that could just be historical things that you learned too, but also from a spiritual lens, maybe some things that have helped build you up throughout this series.

Yeah, that is a great question.

And I if for people that don't know, I don't know what Nate's gonna ask me.

Yeah.

So this is this is all like just we're just going for it.

Yeah.

That's a great question.

I I would say as I'm trying to think more deeply on it, I I guess for me it's the it's the humanity of it all.

I I sense that when I when I would read Corinthians, it was always through this lens of these people are a hot mess, and Paul has to correct them.

And and and and here's the correction, here's the correction.

Like you guys are wrong, and here's a correction.

But I think I saw in the correction more empathy and love and compassion than I had historically seen before.

I seen this From Paul you're saying.

From Paul.

Okay.

Yeah, like there's this, like, because I think what we see in scripture, here's how the Bible describes God.

Like it says that that when you love someone, that there's a little bit of correction in love.

Because if I love my grandchildren who I just had this past weekend, there's moments where you want them to run free, because hey man, like you don't get the chance to hang out with grandma and grandpa.

Well, I'm not grandpa, I'm called G-Pop.

That's my street name.

Yeah, um, you don't get a chance to hang out with G-Pop, so I don't want to be the one that's like telling you no, because hey man, like I may not see you guys for another month.

So have at it.

But because of love, I don't want to allow them to do something that can be dangerous.

So do I want my my grandson Trey to have the freedom to run up the stairs at the age of two?

Sure.

But if I don't put some correction around that, it could lead him to falling down the stairs.

So that's love leads you to correct.

And so I think I saw Paul's correction through the lens of love, whereas historically I thought it was, dare I say, a little bit of control, like, hey, this is what God says, there's the standard, here's correction.

It was more so, no, this is there's love because there's harm in this.

And so I think that's something that um I was able to identify and connect with a little bit more this go-round than the previous times I've read through it.

Yeah, that's awesome.

We talked a little bit about um, you know, it's kind of been a theme throughout this series about participation in the work of in this great work, you know, and how a lot of times a paid staff member or someone who owns a nonprofit may be looked at as someone who's participating in kingdom work, right?

But I think we've really tried to challenge our church that each one of us plays a part in it, you know.

I know definitely during during Vinny's message he was very adamant about the fact that, you know, Christ is the head and we're the body and we must submit to Christ, but we're the body, right?

It's not just it's not just seven or eight people who are in the church.

Could you could you talk about some ways or some stepping stones maybe for people who are are looking to take that mantle seriously when it comes to like okay, now that I've identified, you know what, I am a part of a church.

I don't just attend a service, yeah.

Um and I want to take um even the I want to take even the promptings and the challenges by Paul to Corinth.

I want to take that personally to myself.

Yeah.

What do I do?

Where do where do I begin?

I think it starts with changing our mindsets.

I I think what what we when we look at context, which you know I'm I'm big on that, when when Paul is speaking with such urgency and passion at different points, is that he's urging them and saying, like, hey, we have to figure this out.

Like there are no other options.

And here's why I think the urgency is there that we can sometimes miss here.

There wasn't the ability to, man, I don't like what's going on at this church, I'm just gonna go to the one down the street.

That was the only church in that area.

Then the closest one was gonna be like Ephesus, like there was no, I'm just gonna go to this church.

I saw their Instagram and my friend told me to come and check that out.

So when you were part of a community, you were compelled, like, if we don't figure this out, there is no other option.

And so there was a great sense of like unity and like relational conflict that needed to be resolved because there was no other options.

And so I think we've progressed.

We're living in the 21st century.

We have the ability to do a lot of things that I don't want to go backwards from, but I do believe that there are some deep spiritual principles that we're supposed to carry through that we've lost, and that is the ability to to navigate through these things.

And so I think the first thing is understanding that our mindset has to shift and we have to stop being consumers where it's like, hey, this is my church and it serves me.

And the moment that it no longer gives me what I want, I'll just go to another church that has it.

The responsibility was always, what do what am I supposed to do to help to provide the thing I'm looking for?

Which is why the whole all hands thing for us is such a big deal.

Like, I'm called to be a part of what I want to see.

When God puts something on your heart, he also puts something in your hand.

This is something we've always seen in scripture.

There was never the convenience of, well, I'm just gonna go down the street.

So I think that that switching our mindsets and saying, if God has ordered my steps and if God has called me to be here, then what is my responsibility to here?

And then what is here's responsibility to me?

It's mutual.

But I think we have to get out of the consumer mindset, I think is the first thing that we have to get out of.

Because sadly, I do believe that we being I'm pointing at myself, the church, so to speak, we've kind of contributed to the consumeristic mindset.

And I I'm all about vibes.

You know, I love vibes, bro.

I love uh the atmosphere that feels right, I love for people to feel welcome, I love for things to feel intentional, I want things to feel excellent, but I also feel like if it's done with the wrong posture, people can be impressed by your church and they're no longer being they're responding to God's pressing.

Man, I'm impressed by this church, man.

Did you see their kids or something?

I'm impressed by this church.

Look at their parking.

I'm impressed by it, and somehow we've become so driven by the things that we're impressed by that we're missing the things that God is pressing us to do.

Do you think there's any uh there's any recoil or repercussion to you know, back in the old day, and I think we talked about this on a on a previous episode, but we talked about how there was pastoral authority, maybe that was um a little bit more there was more seriousness, or you or you gave more weight and authority to some of your leaders and maybe even some of your um fellow congregants within a church to be able to approach you and to talk to you about certain things.

Again, as you pointed out earlier, you know, Paul's corrections were done with empathy and love in mind, however, they were corrections, you know, and he felt that he had the responsibility to do that.

Yep.

Um it seems to be absent in in our modern contemporary context where I can't really go correct another believer, and we were even talking about this in in my group last Wednesday um because we were talking about the passage where he is calling out the guy who's having sex with his mother-in-law, you know.

Right.

And so we just started talking about a little bit about church discipline and and all of that stuff, you know.

That used to be a term that was commonly heard of.

So I got a little bit of like, what church discipline, like raised eyebrows whenever I brought it up for sure.

But yeah.

And instead of turning people and dare I use the word church hurt instead of inflicting more pain.

I think it has to be done relationally.

So so what's really important with the church of Corinth, and and I know again, like everybody has their own schema when we say the church of Corinth.

So, so me saying Church of Corinth, we immediately superimpose our church context, we superimpose our idea of church, which can sometimes be a church of thousands or even hundreds of people, depending on which our context is.

But the church in Corinth, it it's it wasn't like a mega church.

The biggest church that we know that Paul was very influential in was the church in Rome, which there were several house churches, but it may have been a couple of hundred people.

That was like the largest congregation.

All the rest were pretty much small communities that were just kind of house churches that were growing in influence before church kind of shifted into the model of like the church temple and all that type of stuff.

So I think the the thing that we can look at when we consider what you're asking is that for for Paul, everything was relational, which is why he could be very specific and say, like, bro, like I heard a report from Chloe's people.

Like, he's not saying, like, I heard somebody on the street tell me, like, he's saying, like, no, Chloe, you know Chloe, her people reached out to me and told me that there's somebody in the congregation that like he's being very, very, very specific.

The reason why he's doing that is because there's a relationship.

Paul says in some of his other writings, and I've always um thought that this one was really fascinating.

There's one where somebody did Paul dirty, so he's like, hey man, if you guys are wondering, um, Alexander the Coppersmith, he did me real dirty.

So when you see him excommunicate him, like Paul was very like, look, I'm naming names.

These are people, but here's the thing the reason he can name names is because these names were people, and these are people he had a relationship with.

So I think when we're talking about church discipline, it has to be built off of relationship.

I think that we we run the risk of of damaging people when we offer correction, but there is no connection, there is no love, there is no relationship, it's just me with a microphone and I'm critiquing everybody's behavior.

But where there's relationship, then there it creates the opportunity that it can bear the weight of the correction that's coming.

So so I would say that some of my most deep corrective moments that I've had to extend in ministry have always been through relationship.

Because it's like, hey, let me let me sit down and talk with you, or someone comes to me and tells me something that they've done.

And so when we talk about here's some scary thoughts that maybe, depending on church context, people may get a little bit of triggered from this.

But the Bible talks about the importance of confession.

Now, there's a belief system that kind of like has a system around it, but confession is actually a really good thing, and we'll be talking about that in series to come.

But it's important to be able to confess your faults one to another and how we are able to unburden ourselves.

So I have several people in my life that will come to me that I have deep relationships with and they'll say, Hey man, listen, man, I'm really, really struggling in this area of my life.

Here's something that I've done wrong.

And there are moments when there's very much like, hey man, God is for you.

Let's get you back on the right track.

There's been other moments where I'm like, man, you know better than that.

We've talked about this quite a bit.

Like, help me to understand how we got here.

All of it's built on love, but it's all on the foundation of meaningful relationships.

So I would say that that's the key thing.

So, yes, is correction real?

Absolutely.

But it's the same thing like with my family, with my children who are adults now, so it looks different.

But it's all on relationships.

Otherwise, people disconnect, they don't want to hear from you, and they'll move on because there are so many influential voices, and we have echo chambers, and I could just go to TikTok or anywhere else that can kind of validate my feelings.

If I don't at least create a relational dynamic that lets you know that what I'm speaking is in your best interest, then you're not going to be able to hear from me.

And so one of the things I learned in the counseling space is it's not just about what you are saying, it's about how you're being experienced.

And that changes the paradigm for me.

And that's a two-year journey for me, is there's times where I felt like, hey, I was able to say what I needed to say, but now I'm I'm growing to understand, but how am I being received?

Because if I'm being received in a way that's not matching my heart, then no matter what I've said, there's not going to be any change.

We've also, you know, honestly, uh, not in a uh you know, explicitly or overtly done this on purpose, but we've looked at letters or we looked at scriptures as as if they were social media posts or as if they were sermons on YouTube, right?

I mean you even like these are letters, these are yes, these are at least in the in the case of First Corinthians, like it's as personal as it gets, you know.

So I think to offer correction now, maybe if the entire church needs correction on something and you know that because you're the shepherd, then yeah, great.

But like you said, it's done it's not done online, it's done in rooms and offices and coffee shops.

You know, that's that's where correction or you know, even discipline maybe.

One thousand percent.

That's the right context for it, I think.

And I think it's also we have to, you know, we have to be careful that we aren't observing someone's behavior or something that they've done and whoever their oversight is, and assume that things aren't being addressed.

I think that's another thing that happens in the social context is that we often think that, well, if they're being corrected, then this is what it looks like.

Um I like I'll just be real, man.

Like being in pastoral leadership for probably almost, you know, 15, 18 years now, I've had to sit people down, I've had to let people go.

There's been varying versions of it.

And no matter what I've done, guess what?

There's people that felt that I should have done more, or people who felt I should have done less.

There's always gonna be uh an opinion about the way that you respond.

And I think that's the that's the tension and the challenge of you wanna make sure you're hearing from God.

And there's like this constant wrestling with God and wrestling with what you think is right and wrestling what the community thinks, and then trying to be faithful in all of this stuff by still looking at a person who is flawed, who has made a mistake, they they deserve just as much grace as we do, but there may be different consequences based off of whatever the circumstance is.

But we have to measure all of that stuff.

But for me, I know specifically, I'm running in my mind some receipts in my head of like people that I've had to have conversations with, and folks are like, oh, like, but they they should have been fired.

And I'm like, well, no, that's not what God placed on my heart.

And literally seeing people frustrated because they want it to look a certain way.

So I think we have to also make sure that as we're witnessing things, that we're not superimposing our authority into spaces that we actually don't have it.

Yeah, that's a great point.

Let's talk a little bit about um yesterday and talk a little bit about eternal perspective.

Yeah.

Now, when we bring up eternal perspective, um what does that what does that mean to you?

What does an eternal perspective mean to you?

Yeah, I think the the the concept of eternity is like it's one of those things like the more I learn, the less I realize I know, and then the more terrifying I realize I don't know anything.

So when you think about eternity, um it's it's it's beyond us.

Yeah.

So oddly enough, and and Megan makes fun of me all the time because of like my fascination with with sci-fi and and just stuff, but sci-fi has been very informative and me trying to wrap the parts of my mind around what godliness is.

Praise God.

So it's been it's been profound.

And and and here's why.

Specifically with this one show that I've been watching and this book I've been reading, it's been talking about multiple dimensions.

So we're three-dimensional beings.

But when people often, different theologians would make an effort to try to describe God, they're like, God is other, he's he's outside of space time, he's he's a different entity altogether.

So ultimately, what eternity is is us leaving this third world dimension where we're bound by space and time and height and depth, and we're entering into a dimension where there is no end.

There is no, and so it's that still falls short in truly trying to understand it, but understanding that the life that we live now is just the intro track to this album of eternity that when we pass on, we're Entering into so to me it's that's fascinating, and knowing that what I do here matters.

I think you did a brilliant job at connecting that, that what I do now matters there is beautiful on earth as it is in heaven, like that idea, the life that I live now can invite that.

So I heard a worship leader once say that that when we are worshiping God, it is the closest we get to thinning the layer between heaven and earth.

Very beautiful.

And so, you know, she was quoting scriptures, but really helping us understand that that that worship almost lifts the veil that allows us to intimately experience and see on earth as it is in heaven.

And it's poetic, it's powerful, and it's so it to me it has meaning, but an eternal perspective is recognizing that what I see is a very limited scope of what's beyond me.

I think Paul says it brilliantly, even in um To the Church of Corinth, like man, like we look through a glass dimly, it's very fractured in what we see.

This is a like it's dark right now, but when we do see and we get on the other side, we're gonna see that there's so much more to it.

I'm not sure if you've ever seen um Men in Black, but there's the one, I'm not sure if I think it might have been Men in Black too, where there's the one at the end of the movie, like Will Smith and those guys, like they're there's a scene where like they're living on Earth.

There's this whole thing, and then you find out like it's just one of the marbles, like this this giant alien thing, like there's like this locker room scene where as big as the earth is for us, there's other beings that lived outside of Earth, and we were just like a marble to them.

Like it was just really humbling to kind of see like this in the hand of this alien was multiple galaxies, and for us it's the biggest thing in the world.

Naturally, I'm not saying God's an alien.

Someone please don't cut this in the wrong way, and now we're being viral for the wrong reasons.

Yeah.

But I but when I saw that, I'm like, there's so much beyond us, and there's a God who loves us, and and he's inviting us into something so much bigger.

So an eternal perspective is recognizing that there's so much more beyond what we see.

Why that's a hard speaking of tensions to manage, it's a hard tension to manage to know that what I do matters, and and yet this isn't the only thing that matters, you know?

Like uh we because we get trapped in our own day-to-day, our own frameworks, it's like when you travel, you realize, oh my gosh, there's a whole lot more to the world than what I consume or or what I am exposed to on a daily basis, and it almost expands your mind a little bit, right?

So when you're exposed to different things, uh it it helps to enlarge your framework and have a better appreciation for let's just call it creation as a whole.

But what are some things to help our people with what are some things that they can do or some ways that they can think about life in a sense that not only puts importance on what they're doing, but it it doesn't magnify it to an extent that is unhealthy and it becomes the only thing of importance.

Does that make sense?

For sure.

I think um I think it's living with a missions mindset.

That's something that we we we talk about and uh often reference.

But like I've to your point, when when living in America and and living in the different parts of America um have been great, but when I began to travel abroad, whether it's just for vacations or for an admission field, yeah, you get exposed to a world that is so different than us, and you recognize really quickly that the things that we get all caught up about are things that are not even things for other people or or um they just don't seem to have the same burden for them.

And so when I was looking at something, and I'll I may share this in our next series, so this is kind of like a spoiler, but I was looking at like the the American dream of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, this this idea of getting, achieving, succeeding, and yet surveys reveal that we are one of the least happy countries in the world, but yet that's literally our tagline.

And you gotta ask yourself like how is it that we are supposed to be this this experiment of diversity and and and happiness and get it and all these things, the land of opportunities, yet statistically, we are consistently some of the least happy people when we look at the the scope with other countries, and I think it's because we've turned the pursuit of things into the idol.

We've turned that into the thing.

So I believe when we begin to look at how do we make sure that we manage the tension well of yes, enjoying where we are, embracing all of that, exploring all those things while simultaneously understanding that we don't want to get so consumed with it that it that it zaps us of all joy, is understanding that wherever you are, maybe that's God's mission field for you.

And and so that means that while I'm there, I have an assignment.

So for me, it things become a lot more linear for me when it comes to being obedient to God when I look at it through the lens as it being an assignment.

Like, okay, like I'm being called here.

That means there's an assignment for me.

There's there's something that is meant for me to do.

That changes the way that I endure pain, that changes the way that I endure disappointment because I have an assignment.

There's something that God has called me to do while I'm here, but when we don't have that mindset, we can become so consumeristic or so capitalistic that we completely miss the kingdom assignment that's attached to it.

So I would just say a missions mindset is backing up and saying, like, what is my God-given assignment for my family?

What is my God-given assignment at my church?

What is my God-given assignment at this workspace that seems like it has nothing to do with God?

But what is my assignment here?

Maybe my assignment is just to let my light shine and plant seeds.

But if we could begin to look at our life through the mission lens and asking God their assignment, that becomes the thing that brings us fulfillment instead of an outcome that may just be out of our reach.

Let's talk about when the ultimate assignment ends, and by that I mean let's talk about death for a little bit.

Okay.

Because uh it's important.

I think we we are death avoidant, uh, at least in in our society, you know, we've replaced a lot of mourn, you know, ideas of mourning that have been um consistent throughout the annals of time with cell well, instead of a funeral, let's call it a celebration of life.

We don't want to put it we don't want to put a dark spin on something, you know what I mean?

Let's try and let's try and bring levity to it.

And while I understand the while I understand the the notion behind that, I think there is some importance to to mourning.

And the reason I bring this up is be just because we were talking about resurrection yesterday and the fact that the apostle Paul himself even says we shouldn't grieve like those who grieve.

Yeah.

But there should be some grief, right?

So let's first handle one A of this, and that is what's the proper response for a Christian to grieve whenever a loved one or someone close to them has passed on?

Yeah, I f I feel like like it's it's hard to kind of put it into a here's three ways to to grieve in a healthy way.

But what I will say is, and and I'm very mindful of saying this because I recognize that like grief comes in waves.

Yeah.

And there's there's people who experience just crazy amounts of loss, and it's hard to like even wrap our minds around what that they're walking through.

But the Bible does give us like, okay, like the grief had a process.

Grief was very much a like typically in scripture, it was like 30 days of like sackcloth and ashes, you didn't virtually did nothing, you fasted, you prayed, you were very well supported, like people were around you, and then at some point you just begin the process of like moving forward, but they always gave space to express the emotions.

And I think the thing that we miss is the distinction between lament and grief.

So grief is the emotion, lament is the expression.

Okay.

Sadly, we live in a culture, and I think this kind of connects a little bit to what you're talking about with the celebration of life, is we are okay with grief.

People are sad all the time.

Like people will talk in like sadness, but we get stuck in grief because we never lament.

That's the expression.

Okay.

That's the outpouring of it.

And so, what you'll see that what I think David is an example of, the prophet Jeremiah, who wrote the book of Lamentations, which is a literally a book of like expressing their grief towards God, what we see a lot with the Old Testament believers is they were not afraid to unburden themselves by sharing their disappointment with God, their frustration with the situations.

Like when Samuel um was notified that that God was moving on from Saul to David, like he he grieved and then God gave him space to grief.

And then God said, Okay, you grieve long enough.

It's time to get up, David's waiting for you, like get up and get going.

So, but there was space for that.

So I think for us, we have to know that there is space to grief, and grief is a very long journey, but we can get stuck in grief if we don't express it.

And I think sadly, we have been conditioned that the expression of grief, crying, crying out, expressing anger, all of those things have somehow become like don't do that, God can't handle that.

Don't, don't, and and and and I think we've missed it.

I I was I was I mean, I I want to do a series on this next year, so I'm kind of getting ahead of myself.

Okay, but I'm gonna go ahead and say it anyway.

That when we look at Job, and so I want to probably do a series on Job.

I haven't even told you this, but we're gonna do a series on Job next year, and we're gonna talk about like the theology of suffering and all the different emotions and expressions that Job was able to navigate through, his anger, his frustration, his disappointment.

And then there's a moment when when when God comes and he comes back to Job, and then he actually goes to Job's friends, and he's speaking to Job's friends, and he says to them, like, man, like, like, you have spoken wrongly about me.

Because their perspective of Job's suffering was, you did this, God, God has given you what you deserve.

So God's correction of Job's friends were, You have you have spoken wrongly about me.

But he didn't say that about Job.

But let me tell you some of the things that Job said.

Job said, God is treating me like I'm his prey.

He's treating me like he's a warrior who's toying with a victim.

These are words that Job said, but God didn't correct Job for that.

So God gave Job the grace to express his emotions and his frustration and even his disappointment with the season that he found himself in, and God didn't correct that.

But when Job's friend said, like, hey, you earned this, God said, but I am going to correct that.

I think that's meant to kind of give us a sense that when we're going through difficult time, God actually gives us the space to read David and some of his Psalms.

Like he gives us the space to do it.

So I'm not telling people, like, hey man, go outside and curse God.

It's great.

That's not what I'm saying.

Again, don't hear something I'm not saying.

But I believe when we're talking about death and the loss of life, is that the reason why some of us get stuck in grief is because we have not been taught on the importance of lamenting and learning how to let it out and be angry and to cry and be frustrated and be disappointed and let God meet us in that space instead of feeling like we have to put a mask on of faith, and that's where God meets us at.

No, God wants to meet us in our authentic space, and that is in the midst of the suffering instead of feeling like I gotta clean myself up and put a Christian band-aid on top of it, and that'll make God happy, and that's gonna that's my faith talking.

That's just actually just a mask talking at some point, it's gonna come out.

Job's friends, you know, maybe I know for me when I'm in those situations, I really have to do a when I'm next to someone who is grieving the loss, maybe that didn't impact me in the way that it did that person.

I feel like I'm walking on eggshells a little bit because I don't want to say the wrong thing or I don't want to be insensitive, I want to be encouraging, but not too uplifting where the fact that I'm annoying, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's a it's a it's a tightrope for sure, I think.

So if we're analyzing kind of Job's friends, what do you think?

And I think this is part of why grieving is so difficult for people and they maybe don't want to lament in front of others, um, because A, it may be awkward, um, but I think embracing, like, yeah, it'll be awkward, you'll probably have Snack coming down your shirt your shirt, and that's okay, you know, not a big deal.

Stuff like that, you know.

We just don't want to look that way in front of other people.

But as far as the people who are trying to open their arms to others and help, what's your best way in can in helping someone learn how to console correctly and walk next to someone who is experiencing loss?

Yeah, that's a that's a great question, man.

Um I'll I'll be so I'm gonna be I'm always very honest.

Um I'll be very vulnerable and honest.

Um so a couple of years ago, my my youngest son Caleb lost his best friend.

And and that was his best friend, but that was the son of one of my wife's closest friends as well.

So we this is like friends of ours from DC, like they were all we were always together.

So like I I can't express enough how close we are.

We we vacationed and all that stuff together.

And so um when when we found out, like the mom naturally tells Megan, I'm sitting there, we're like devastated because he's like a a son to us, if I could say that, nephew.

And and then I'm also looking at what this means for my son Caleb.

And so here we are, two about two years into this.

I think we're just shy of two years into this, and it is still singularly the most difficult thing that I've ever had to walk through.

And I've dealt with all types of loss.

The reason being is because my my young, my my son is so young in his faith, he's probably like 18 when it happened, he's 20 now.

But like for him, he's he's wrestling with like this is a family of faith.

How did this happen?

I'm disappointed that this could happen to people that serve God.

I'm also disappointed that this could happen to me.

I I serve God.

Like, so you just see like this hitting him at a level where he's just wrestling with it.

And there was a moment when he said to me, like, just in one of his moments of just being very vulnerable, he's like, Dad, I just don't, I don't see God in this.

And I was like, Man, I'm like, I understand.

And and and I get it, and and I don't believe in what we had saw, God was in what we saw, but God is with us while we're suffering through it.

And I think what I learned through this at a very practical level is I didn't feel the need to correct like anyone's theology.

So sometimes when when people are frustrated, and it didn't get to this level with my son, but I saw a fine line when he was sad and and and and emotional, these moments of him asking, How could this happen?

How did God let this happen?

Why is this happening?

I didn't feel a need to preach a sermon on, but God is with us.

Like it was more so like, son, I don't know.

Man, I I feel like there are things that are beyond us, and I just don't have an answer for it, man.

And but we're we'll figure it out together.

Like it was just being very present instead of feeling like I needed to solve it.

And so I would say for those of us who are in community with people who are suffering, even when they begin to veer off the road of how did God let this happen?

Why did he let it happen?

If you want to kind of be a presence that can serve as a reminder of God's faithfulness, I get that.

But that's not the time to get into quoting scriptures and doctrinal things, and I feel like we've completely shut down a person's ability to grieve when we feel like we have to correct their theology along the way.

It's it's giving people the space to ask those questions and to explore their pain and us recognize two things.

One, God can handle it, so we need to learn how to handle it.

I think sometimes we feel like we have to protect God from humans.

And I feel like we take a responsibility of needing that.

Oh no, no, no, no, like don't don't think like that.

That wasn't God.

Like I don't feel it, I don't feel that responsibility anymore.

I'm like, yes, son, this does suck.

This is awful, and I don't get it.

I will tell you that God did not cause this, but I don't understand how we got here, and but we're gonna figure this out together, just being completely vulnerable.

So I would say, I'm not saying that that's a prescription of what you should do, but that's a description of what I have done and I continue to do, is just be present and say, Yeah, man, this is terrible.

And I I I have a million scriptures in my head I can quote, but I don't feel like that fixes this.

And then I've learned more and more that I need to learn how to care for people, not cure them.

That's God's job.

And so for me, it's like my job is to care, God's job is to cure.

But we often take on the model of curing people and using God in a way to hopefully do that, but it actually just ends up minimizing their pain and it doesn't produce the fruit we think it's going to.

Yeah, I think that's very helpful that distinction that you provided, care, you know, versus cure.

Um, so I hope that's able to help uh some folks out there.

I heard a couple weeks ago uh in one of your series that next year we would be doing something on the end times.

Yeah.

Is that is that the case?

Yeah, so I'm I'm not sure if it'll be exclusively end times.

We talked about this, it's actually like if people knew the meetings that we have and what's on our whiteboards and even stuff that's in the whiteboard of my office, like so.

Do you remember may have been last year, I said, Man, I want to do something on the book of Revelation on the seven letters.

And we were trying to figure out where it would fit in this year, but I still I feel now more of a prompting like next year's the time.

So I do feel like I'm not sure if it will be the revelation seven letters, which has end times connected to it, or if it's going to be exclusively on end times, but I do know either way, you can't talk about end times and revelation not be involved.

Yeah.

So that's kind of where I see us going.

Okay, great.

Yeah, I don't know when, but it's happening.

All right, cool.

You heard it here.

You heard it here first.

We talked a little bit about resurrection yesterday.

Next year we're just gonna go all in.

Yeah.

I feel like there's a part of me, because the the seven letters are their own thing, and obviously they're being written during end times, but I really do feel now I'm talking more out loud, this will probably be more end time specific.

Okay.

Like Matthew 25, when Jesus is talking about the end times, and maybe I'll integrate a little bit of Daniel into that, and I'll integrate a little bit of revelation into it.

But but bro, I I've been thinking a lot about that, and I've been hesitant in doing it just because I feel like there's a lot of times we can obsess about that stuff and become weird, and we start pulling charts out and look at where the moon was at this time, and Jesus is coming back.

And I'm like, I get it, he's coming back.

What are we going to do with it?

Yeah, but I do feel like there's a healthy way for us to acknowledge that Christ is going to return, yeah, and there's a way that we should steward our lives knowing that I can tell you this.

I don't know when he's coming, but we're closer than we were yesterday.

Yeah, that's for sure.

Maybe Kurt Cameron can be a member, a guest on the podcast next year.

We love you, Kurt.

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Any any final words as we wrap up our uh our latest season of After the Message, Pastor Keith?

No, man.

I think my my biggest thing is this I'm hopeful that it was helpful.

Yeah I know that a lot of things that we do as a church, specifically when it comes to messages, it's really it's that sensitive spot of like, God, is this for me?

Is this for our staff?

Is this for our church?

And there's always like this thing that I have to like kind of sort through.

And so fortunately we as a team are able to kind of process through that stuff.

Like, I don't sit in a room and and conjure the stuff up on my own, but at the end of the day, when we're done, I'm like, man, I'm hopeful that it did what we were hoping it would do.

I think that we obviously could keep going and doing more and more, but I'm hopeful that it was helpful.

And I would say that I think that you did a phenomenal job at closing out the series.

And um I should have spent more time interviewing you, man.

Like I I didn't even think about that, but I should have came here and interviewed and picked your mind on some of this stuff, man.

But for me, it's just I feel like we hit on some pretty critical things.

Let me ask you this, and then we'll go, because I haven't you asked me a question that I'm like, man, I need to ask you.

What is something that you learned, discovered, what's the perspective that that question you posed to me earlier, what's something that you think stood out to you on this journey?

I think what was reinforced to me is just how relevant the Bible actually is.

It it gets a ra a bad rap and you know, it just looked at some sort of dusty, antiquated piece of literature.

But when you really when you really read it and you're able to when you're able to actually do the work and understand the context of the history, and that takes work, right?

You know, you have to look at a few extra biblical sources, but man, it's the living word of God.

Yeah, and it's just as applicable today as it was in, you know, 60 AD Corinth.

So uh I think that was the most encouraging thing to me throughout the series.

Good, man.

And I'm I'm glad.

Last question for you.

Yeah.

How did how did it feel preaching on the resurrection yesterday?

It was tough.

Was it yeah, it was tough.

I think the concept of it is something that I'm very passionate about personally and something that I've done a lot of a lot of reading on personally.

Um, but to be able, and you and I talked about this a little bit, to be able to present it in a way that, okay, so what?

That's that's always my biggest thing is like I read and listen to the passage a hundred times before I preach it, and I'm always asking the question, like, all right, God, so what?

You know, like I get what it's saying, but what in the world does that mean?

Why does it what why do I why am I preaching on this?

What do I want people to walk away from?

So that was the difficult part and connecting the so what part.

So yeah.

But you did you did a wonderful job, eh?

Thanks, man.

I appreciate it.

Eternal perspective.

Eternal perspective.

And speaking of eternal perspective, uh this podcast will live on an eternity because it's going to be on YouTube and Spotify.

So make sure you guys like and subscribe or whatever they say on the podcast nowadays to let us to be informed of when the next one's coming, and it may be coming sooner rather than later.

That's right.

You just never know.

Stay tuned.

Awesome.

Thank you guys so much for joining us.

We love you, and uh, we'll talk to you soon.

Yeah, man.

Loved it.

Thank you for joining us to learn more about Celebration Orlando, a church devoted to reaching the lost, equipping the found, and helping the hurting.

Follow us on social media using the handle at celebrationorl or visit our website, celebrationorl.org.