S1 E1 | Resurrection, Reincarnation, and Reading Your Bible | After the Message

Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

This is a segment we like to call After the Message, where the conversation about life, God, and the Bible continue beyond Sunday.

We hope today's episode will encourage, enlighten, and inspire you.

Well, folks, we're back.

After the message.

Yes.

New season, new digs.

New digs, man.

What do you think about it?

New vibe, man.

Who this?

Yeah.

Let's go.

So thankful that you are joining us today.

If you are unfamiliar with After the Message, we hope uh today can be a good introduction to you.

Uh my name's Nate, and I'm joined with the pastor, the senior pastor of Celebration.

Senior pastor's official.

The gray hair definitely feels right.

Yeah, we'll make sure that gets on the website properly.

Senior pastor, Pastor Keith Pittman.

How are you, my friend?

I'm good, man.

I am happy to be here.

Happy to be back.

Happy to be here with you, brother.

Just just ready to have some great discussions and just and just chill.

And I feel caffeinated, so it's great.

Yeah, I'm ready for cup number two, whenever you guys are.

But uh, you know, at the time of this recording, we're we're coming off the the heels of Easter or Resurrection Sunday, as it were.

And um, you know, every year we we believe for for great things during this this season and during this time.

So before we get into maybe theological or even historical discussion, let's just talk personally.

Like, yeah, how was Easter for you this year?

You know, you have a great opportunity to preach in front of people that you may not normally get to see on a regular basis.

So let's talk a little bit about that.

Yeah, it's I love that we're having this conversation because you know, as a church, we we have a lot of things that we do around Holy Week leading up to Easter.

And I think one of the tensions that I often feel and what I felt when I first got into full-time ministry is is not losing the the beauty of what these moments mean for me personally.

Because I think once you get into full-time ministry, it it takes on its own life, and now you end up being the one who's working in the kitchen instead of sitting in the room and actually being able to participate.

So I I love the way that our church is able to kind of have things that still allows us and specifically for myself to feel like I can sit at the table.

So Holy Week, especially um Good Friday at the garden, was deeply meaningful for me because we walk through these stations and these moments leading from Christ going to the cross, which were very significant.

But then when you get on the other side of it and we get into resurrection morning, like I think that it's almost like um like my family and I, we we love going to amusement parks.

And and one of the things I enjoy about that is yes, it's familiar, but watching people experience it for the first time is always super cool.

So I think that's what Easter and Resurrection Morning is for me, is like you're seeing people come in that may have never come before, maybe they we haven't seen them since last Christmas or Easter.

But just kind of seeing that that sense of hope and that spark that's there, that's always a cool thing.

So I get a chance to have it on both ends on on Good Friday at the Garden.

That's like a very personal journey for me.

Um, and then on the other side, when we get to um the empty tomb, I love to see people just kind of have that glimmer of hope.

So so for me it's been amazing.

And the empty tomb is what distinguishes Christianity from pretty much any other religion.

And that's that's the calling card, if you will.

It's it's why we it's why we dedicate our lives to following Jesus in the first place, is because you know, he's the one who claimed to be the only person to come back to life after being murdered.

So him and Tupac.

Yeah, Tupac's for sure, yeah.

In in hologram form, whatever.

But before we talk theologically about you know the implications of that historically, for somebody who's just wondering, okay, is this even something for me to look into?

A guy that came back to life.

Do we have anything that is that holds holds weight?

Yeah.

One of the things that I've learned, specifically for people that are critical of Christianity, and by all means, I think we should wrestle with our faith and our beliefs.

Most of us are just handed what we believe and we just walk it out.

And there should be spaces where we we challenge it and and we process through it.

But when I look at people who are a little bit more skeptical or critical of it, they don't often view it through the same lens that we view other things through.

So, in instance, what I'm saying is when we think about the the crucifixion and the resurrection, that in and of itself is a historical event.

So then when we ask for evidence of it, we're approaching with a scientific mind.

But the problem is the scientific method requires you to be able to test it and repeat it in order for it to be considered true.

So by virtue, we will never be able to test the theory scientifically.

However, we do have historical record of it.

And historical record is the same thing we use for any other thing in history.

None of us saw Julius Caesar, none of us saw George Washington, but we look at historical records, and the way that we look at that is by written accounts.

What did other people say about it?

How did they describe it?

And then that creates the culmination of the way that we understand it.

So that's how kind of how we view it as Christians.

We don't approach it with the scientific method because we don't do that with anything in history, but we do look at history, and from a historical standpoint, we absolutely have a lot of things in our favor.

Not only biblical literature, but even secular literature speaks to Christ.

It speaks to the claims of an empty tomb.

These are not things that are uniquely just to us.

Now, of course, their perspective won't give the detail that the gospels will, but for our perspective, they absolutely do capture this moment and this movement of this guy who came, who who died, and people said crucify him, and they claim the tomb was empty.

Like that is written beyond just the Christian view.

That is a secular world view.

So those are some of the claims that we can say from an evidence standpoint.

But I will also say, I think the other thing is, and this is something that I think is important like the empty tomb has such deep implications that people are willing to die over that belief.

Yeah.

So when we look at the gospels, when we look at the biblical writers and we look at the way in which they were martyrs themselves and they died, like they believed it so deeply they were willing to put their lives on the line for it.

So again, when we look at accounts, we look at history, we look at the stories that are told, we capture testimonies, and when we look at the fact that when Paul and even the disciples are writing these letters, like one of the things I like to say is that the Bible is for us, but not to us.

Right.

So because it's not to us, that means that it's written to a group of people.

So when Paul is saying, hey man, this guy Cephas, he saw this, like he's thinking, go ask him.

When they're saying it's 500 people that witness Christ walking around, he's mentioning that because the expectation is, don't take my word for it, go look at it.

Now, us, all these years later, we don't have that ability, but they're writing it through the mindset of like, go verify this for yourself, go talk to the guy that saw them.

So when we look at it through that lens, we carry the same methodology that other historical narratives have testimony, witnesses, and how has it been captured and told.

Yeah, and I've heard a couple people, maybe even recently, say like nobody dies for a lie.

And you mentioned the fact that people literally were uh were martyred for their belief in the fact, like, no, I I saw the I saw the living Jesus.

So um if someone's interested, let's just start with the Bible.

If someone's interested in in learning more about the resurrection and the events that took place, is there a all the gospels speak to it, but do you have a favorite or one that gives uh a perspective that you consider more unique or maybe because they all give a little bit of a different they show it in a little bit of a different light, and some of the characters are you know portrayed uh more prominently than others, but for you personally, like what what would you say?

Um well, one I think that that's one of the things that I love about the Bible is that it doesn't try to sanitize the discrepancies.

So when I when I think about how the way that John talks about it is different than the way that Matthew talks about it.

The core principles are the same, but there are some variables that are different, and that's exactly you you would expect from a real life account.

If it was absolutely word for word, exactly the same, that would seem a little off-putting to me.

That would actually seem more like a conspiracy.

But I I don't know about you, Nate, but I know that there are many times in my life where my wife and I can recount an event and have completely different perspectives of us telling that story.

This is true.

I can say to her, like, no, it was after we went upstairs.

No, it was when we came downstairs.

No.

And we can go back and forth and and and and have this tension of no, I remember that differently than you do.

So again, if that happens with us in everyday life, how much more would that happen with this world-altering event?

So I do think that the Gospels captures it beautifully because different people have different perspectives of what they've seen, witnessed, and heard.

But I think for me, my my favorite would probably be um man, I I love John's Gospel.

I I would say from a from a clarity of thought, Luke is my favorite because he's he's the physician.

He was super specific in the way that he captured what he was trying to communicate.

But I think John does a phenomenal job at bringing us into the emotions of it.

So I think those two pairing together are really powerful for me.

It's just John, he wrote it through the lens of I'm not trying to convince you that that Jesus is Lord.

I already believe that, I'm gonna speak from it.

So he kind of gives us insight into like the power of it a little bit more.

Luke is approaching it more like an investigator, so he's giving you little details.

And so, since both of those parts exist within me, sometimes I'm just super faith-filled and I just want to hear about the power and all that.

And other times I want to kind of hear the details.

Let me break down the words of that.

So between between John and Luke, those will be my favorite.

But then ultimately, to give us the the weight of what that moment really represents, absolutely, it's gonna be um it's gonna be Paul, 1 Corinthians 15, which gives an account of like not just the empty tomb, but the implications of it for us as modern-day believers, even today.

So those are my three pillars that I'd like to look to.

Yeah, and that's where I actually wanted to go next was okay, so what?

You know, there's a lot of there's a lot of religions or schools of thought or just ways of life that speak to transcendence and just this idea of uh just spirituality in general.

And you know, culturally speaking, a phrase we hear a lot is well, whatever works for you.

Sure.

You know, whatever whatever works for you and your life and the way that you live.

So why did Jesus have to come back from the dead?

What like what are the implications, implications of that, and why is it significant and the claim that it changed the trajectory of human history?

Like, what what is that what does that even mean?

Yeah, I think at the core of it, man, we we all are trying to make sense of this world we live in.

And and I think even beneath that, we're trying to understand meaning and purpose and suffering and disappointment.

So, so when we begin to get to this place of trying to get to this transcendence of what brings me relief, that's where the whole do whatever works for you, whatever's gonna give you relief, whatever's gonna give you meaning, just lean into that.

Like we don't want to force you to feel or believe something that doesn't align with something that brings you peace.

And so at a very surface level, I understand that.

Whatever brings you to a place of relief, go for it.

However, when you think about the deeper implications of the convictions that we have as followers of Christ and what the empty tomb really does mean for us individually, this is where I think we begin to see a divergence between just a secular view of just do whatever works for you versus, hey, like let's lean in and really explore what this means for us.

So for us, naturally, our worldview is that we go all the way back all the way back to the garden.

Like, hey, you have two paths you can take, the tree of life or the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which ultimately means defining life on your own terms, doing things your own way, finding peace your own way, and and it will always come up short.

And then you ultimately have this path that God lays out for us.

So we go down the pathway of all these things.

And so Paul explains to us in Romans chapter six that the wages of sin is death.

Like there's a there's a price to pay as a result, or as a consequence of living a life outside of the way that God has defined it for us, that knowledge of tree of good and evil.

So once you're kind of in that pathway of defining things on your own terms, there's a consequence for that, and that payment was death.

Something had to die to cover us up and our rebellion.

Sacrificial systems come in place, all these other things come in place.

Now Jesus comes into the equation and he fulfills this perfect standard that God has ultimately established.

And now we get to walk in the shadows of that.

We inherit that as followers of Christ.

But the reason why it's so significant for us now is because what it allows us to recognize is that the one universal thing that all of us can someway come to an agreement on, and there's very few things in culture we can, is that is that death is promised.

You know, like it's it's it's coming for for all of us in some form or another.

And so I think ultimately what it shows us is that we have one being, we have one entity, we have one Christ who has defeated death.

That's the significance of it.

Because now what we have is we don't just have a good man who died, but we have a man who transcended death and who rose, which then means that that same power that rose him from the dead is available to us, which now means that our life has deeper meaning because the life that we live is one with an eternal perspective instead of one that has a very linear short timeline.

Because if not, then why does it matter?

I live, I die, and that's it.

But because of the resurrection, it lets me know that I'm not only living for today, but I'm also living for the beyond.

And that's the beautiful thing is that there's going to be a time when we're resurrected and it brings purpose to everything.

Yeah.

And I think you know, kind of playing playing the other side of this, someone could try and poke a hole in that argument or at least just offer a a counterview, like, okay, well, what about reincarnation?

You know, it seems like something that is perpetual, you know.

I die, I come back as something else, I come back as someone else.

Like uh I'm still the same entity or essence, it's just in a different in a different version, you know.

What do you think the distinction between reincarnation and resurrection is?

Sure.

Um I think in its simplest form is reincarnation by virtue is cyclical.

So it's a cycle.

And and the hope is one day I can live a life where I can outpace the karma of the way that I lived in my previous life, and I can enter into a space of transcendence.

At least some versions of reincarnation carry that where you kind of like I come back and I come back, and each time I'm leveling up, and eventually I get to a space where I am at one with the universe and I've transcended um humanity.

So I think that the the flaw and the challenge in that is that it basically means that the life that I live is one that I'm trying to escape.

It creates an escapism where I'm just trying to earn my stripes so I can get out of this, this, this space that we find ourselves in.

And ultimately, the also the flaw that I find in that is that it erases your memory.

Like it's like a reset button.

Like you, you leave, you come back, and then you kind of get to a space of you believe this idea of reincarnation and you begin to believe that I'm here because of what I did in my past life.

I don't know what that is.

I don't know, but I'm going to be back again.

And hopefully I can get to a space where I can graduate and get out of it.

So every day it's just a goal to escape this world that we live in.

Whereas with the resurrection, what we see with Christ and what's so beautiful for us is Paul brilliantly tells the church in Thessaloniki, he's like, hey, like, you know, we we like we have those of us who've fallen asleep, but we don't grieve like those who don't have hope.

We shall be reunited with them.

So that the joy that we have is knowing that for even those who've passed on before us, we will see them.

We will know them.

They will know us.

Our stories will remain.

So even when Jesus comes back from the dead, like what we see in him is like, hey, look at me.

It is me, myself.

Handle me, touch me, recognize I'm not a version of me.

I'm not some distant like guy that you don't know.

Like, this is literally me.

I remember you, you remember me.

And I think that's the beauty of what resurrection provides versus reincarnation, where I'm just hoping to escape.

This allows us to know that the memories and the people that we love and we know that have made it on the other side, we will be reunited.

And to me, that's that's a beautiful idea.

Yeah, absolutely.

It you know, it's one thing to um, you know, it's one thing to hope to to come back as a better version, but it's another thing to know that you'll be transformed while still holding your unique personality.

Like you're created by God in his image, but you're the only you, yes.

Uh, and the only thing that we really can take with us or hold on is our memory.

I think it's I think it's cool.

I used to have a version of Christianity or just growing up, it was a version of escapism, like alright, just gotta grit my teeth through life and then get to heaven.

But it was almost as if when I got there, my mind would be like sort of the dated, the hard drive would be wiped, you know what I mean?

And everything would be perfect.

But I think even the pain, uh, the things that we do experience in this life, the restoration or the transformation of that just brings so much more joy uh to existing beyond um the resurrection.

You mentioned uh you know, death and suffering and how Paul even encourages people uh in the scriptures not to mourn.

Uh easier said than done, right?

And as a pastor, you've you've been in those situations where I'm sure you've had to comfort loved ones who are going through who are experiencing loss in their family or friends, circles, whatever that may be.

So can you talk through maybe how you even handle that?

I'm sure there are people who are listening or watching who A have experienced loss recently or know somebody who has.

Sometimes we just don't know what to say.

Yeah.

And sometimes we don't want to say the wrong thing and upset them even more.

So is there any pastoral guidance that you can give on this?

Absolutely.

I would say first and foremost, it is okay to feel what you feel.

Um similar to your version of Christianity that you were raised in, mine was one was was definitely so rooted in faith and profound spirituality that it almost wanted you to numb yourself to human suffering.

So that basically means being content.

Just be content with what you have.

Um and and sometimes that contentment can rob you of ambition, but also can rob you of like what I consider just to be basic empathy because you hear of suffering and you're like, that's so unfortunate.

But man, least they're on the other, like it's just this really quick.

And so even in the mental health space, we call that spiritual bypassing, which is that we just want to hurry up and throw the Bible on top of suffering to just get past the uncomfortable part.

But I think one of the things that I've loved about what we've really leaned into as a community um these past several years with going through our um Good Friday at the Garden experience is let's not rush past Saturday.

Silent Saturday is a real thing, and I believe it's meant to be the embodiment of what we do when we don't know what to do.

And so when you look at the text and you look at culture, they sat still and they sat in their grief, they sat in their disappointment.

The book of Psalms beautifully allows you to see the journey that David was on when he was sitting in his darkest moments.

And so I think sometimes we can become so spiritually minded that we almost lose the fact that we're human beings having a human experience that has attachments to people and that our disappointment, our grief, there's space for that.

And more importantly, God can handle it.

I don't know where we've passed down this belief that God can't handle our disappointment.

And so for me, I'm like, just read the book of Psalms.

Like David was pretty sharp in some of his expectations of what he wanted to see from God, his disappointment, but he still came around to it.

So I think the ability to grieve, but also to lament.

And I think that's the the distinction that people often lose because we grieve silently.

That's the emotions that we feel.

But the lack of lamenting is the thing that keeps us stuck in our grief because the lamenting is what actually lets it get out.

That's the tears, that's the being frustrated, that's going through the stages of grief, the anger, the, the, the, the rejection, all of those things.

Like you want to lead people through it.

So I would say for me, what I've learned through the years of not only sitting in my own disappointment, but sitting with so many people who've gone through some of the most terrible things you can imagine is first just the ministry of present, just being there.

I don't have to give you a scripture to fix it.

I don't have to give you an answer as to the why, even though that may be the question, but just sitting there and being present is the first thing you want to be able to do.

Secondly, is letting them know it's okay and God can handle their disappointment, He can handle their anger, He can handle their frustration, He can handle all of it.

Um, and then lastly, giving them space to let them know that as they are on this journey of letting them know they're not alone, and then genuinely trying to figure out, depending on what the circumstance is, how can we resource and support them?

If it is um extended mental health support, if it is just resources that can come alongside, because like grief can hit you in so many different waves.

But for me, when we do come back to scripture, like we must remember that like from the very beginning, when when when Mary is confronted by the angel and he begins to lay out what the assignment of Jesus is, and she's walking through and watching her son rise into his calling, she's aware.

The Bible would say that she just kind of hit these things in her heart.

She knew that these things were inevitable, but that didn't stop her from being at the foot of the cross, just having an emotional breakdown.

At the death of her son.

Like these are real feelings.

So I think sometimes we read the Bible through the lens of this spiritual enlightenment and we just skip to the power and the empty tomb.

But look at the humanity in it as well.

And that's what I love about scripture, is it doesn't cover those things up.

You see the disappointment, you see the disciples scattered in grief.

You see all these things.

So for us, let's just look at the people in the Bible and do a version of what they did in a healthy way.

And that hopefully holds space where our faith can be redeemed even in moments when we're experienced doubt.

Yeah.

Why do we have such a such a trouble with lamenting?

You know, is it is it just a cultural thing where where we are, you know, isn't does the world have this this issue?

I I don't know.

It just seems it seems like we don't want to be embarrassed or it's uncomfortable to to express I mean you read you read in the scriptures that it was a very visible demonstration of what was happening inwardly.

It was it was it was it was expressed outwardly.

Like what is it?

What's informing our our hesitancy to lament?

Man, um I'm gonna get in trouble.

Okay, but but this is a safe space.

So here's what happens online.

Yeah, this is this is what happens when you have um a colonizing view of the gospel.

So basically what ends up happening is as Christianity began to spread and different people groups took on the assignment of sharing the gospel, but in a very combative way, they had to synthesize the gospel in the most simplest form.

So there was no room to be taught of the enormity of God, the culture that gave birth to the message of the gospel.

They stripped all that away.

It just became God is the answer to every problem that you have, and even the ones you don't know you have, believe and things are going to work themselves out.

And so as that became the perverse way in which the gospel was presented, it didn't leave room for the human experience because it was literally being shoved down people's throat.

Like we have to remember, like the crusades was repent or die.

Like these are things you'd never seen in scripture, but that was a um a colonizing way of presenting the gospel.

So by the time it makes its way to our shores and the way that we kind of go about it, we just are kind of living in the shadow of, yeah, like just trust God and it's all gonna work out.

But when you travel, one of the things I've often heard people say, like if you ever want to get over yourself and whether it's your preeminence or whether it's your own prejudice of self-importance, get some stamps in your passport.

Because as you start to travel and you're exposed to other cultures and other people who love God and it looks different from you, it humbles you real quick because you get the chance to see like a beautiful pursuit.

You get to see people who have the capacity of being able to grieve.

When I went to Israel and I saw that they have something that they refer to as the Wailing Wall, like literally, people just they go there to grieve.

They go there to cry out to God, and you're like, they create an entire system that's designed around this.

And meanwhile, we try to hide it and keep it hidden.

When we go to Zimbabwe and other parts of the world and how they're so emotive and so tapped into their feelings, there's a beauty in being able to grieve and lament and to praise God and to worship freely because you're not worshiping through this false expectation that everything's going to work itself out, but they can hold space for all of it.

So I just think that we've presented a sanitized gospel that everything has to be perfect and laid out.

And if something is wrong, it's not so much that they're it's just we live in a fallen and broken world, but a lot of times it's there's something wrong with you.

And and that still exists, even with all of the insight, even with all of the wisdom we have, we still are living in the shadows of um colonizing gospel.

How would you manage that tension, as you would say, because you're very you're very faith-filled, like I'm gonna believe this reg regardless of what circumstance says, and I and I think scripture even uh alludes to that.

So how do you manage the the disappointment even of times of lament ver with the whole idea of well it is gonna work out?

It may not be necessarily the way that you determine that it's gonna work.

It just seems like to me that what you're referring to is sort of a quick fix kind of Christianity as opposed to uh the long road of of discipleship Christianity, you know.

But ultimately at the end of the day, we do want to see things work out uh for the good.

So yeah, how do how do you manage that tension, I guess?

I I don't even think there's an easy answer for that.

I I I I sense that it's a circumstance by circumstance, okay, day by day type of thing.

Uh you know, when we look at scripture and Paul makes the statement of I die daily, there's a lot of ways we can take away from that.

But to me, it's like it's a daily surrender.

It's a daily moment of pausing and reflecting and genuinely trying to invite God into every situation.

So there, depending on what the circumstance is, like real talk, it's easy for me to believe God for some big things for our church.

It's easy for me to believe God for things and goals and dreams that God has given me.

Like, hey, we want to move here, we want to do this.

Absolutely, we're gonna get after it.

No one's gonna tell me no.

But when it comes to like the areas where you feel the most vulnerable, the things that are out of your control, like my kids and things like that, I believe God, but there's certainly a measure of like I trust him, I know that he's with me, but there's certainly a different energy that's there because it's a matter of I don't have control.

So if I feel like I can manage to have control in whatever way we want to define it, it's easy to be faithful because I can kind of see it and I can I kind of see what it takes.

But when things are beyond you, that's the space we're often finding ourselves the most vulnerable.

So for me, the managing of the tension is just being honest with what it is.

I don't think that there's a blank, there's not like a blank canvas that you place on all of it.

It's genuinely just like day by day and just asking yourself, like, why am I wrestling with this so much?

And I believe God for this and I see this is where it's at.

But I think the other thing, and this is something that's hard for us in our culture, is we have so many life hacks.

We have so many shortcuts, we have so many things on how we can get things done the most efficient way possible.

And bro, I'm I'm fairly I'm fairly progressive when it comes to is there a better way of doing this?

Yeah, you you know me, man.

Like, if there's a better way to do this, then let's do it.

I don't want to have to go down I4 if I can avoid it.

So like let's you know I mean, like let's avoid it.

Yeah, but sometimes you just gotta go through the traffic, and that's just is what it is, and you just have to have the maturity to handle both.

Yeah.

I mean, even the the path to resurrection was centuries in the making, you know, like it took what we would define as the old testament period to get to the new testament period, to even get to the cross, to even get to the resurrection.

So I can definitely see what you're saying there.

We've talked about, you know, you mentioned the Psalms a little bit, you mentioned kind of the day by day dying to yourself a little bit, uh, and even just the honesty that it takes to approach these situations.

I know even for me personally, and perhaps this is a little bit of um just the way I was raised, or perhaps there's just the humanity in all of us approaching a very holy God authentically.

Yeah.

You know, that can be difficult for me, even though I know cognitively he knows the beginning from the end.

He's the one who created me in my mother's womb, so to speak.

I guess I'm looking for maybe even personally, maybe nobody else is wrestling with this, but how do you approach God authentically knowing um knowing your flaws, knowing exactly where you stand and and who you are, and I guess the church term knowing your extent of sin, you know, how how do I how do I do that?

Man, for me, so the Bible is everything for me.

Correct.

And and I don't say that as a as a hey, let's just put a Bible answer on it, but the Bible literally shapes my understanding of not only just who God is, but of just his patience.

Yeah.

Like there's a there's there's a reason why in Exodus when when Moses is standing in the presence of God and he's like, man, like Lord, just just show me your face.

And God's like, Man, you can't handle it.

Like you're not ready for that.

But I'll pass by you and I'll hide you in this cleft in a rock, and then I'll declare who I am and I'll let you see my backside, which that's a deep, profound thing that I would love to get into a different time.

So he he passes by, but as God is like literally defining himself, the Lord, the Lord who's who's patient and long-suffering, like God is describing himself.

This is not the words of man trying to put language like God is saying of himself, he's patient.

So when I look at that, that means that great, he's long-suffering, he's patient, he's describing himself.

And then I then I take that definition of himself and see how he's interacted with his people.

If you ever want to see the patience of God on full display, I don't know, every year I read through the Bible in the year, every time I get through the book of Exodus, it just if it floors me that any of us have made it.

Because like you see in this place where God goes in to rescue them from bondage, they don't even make it out of bondage a week.

And they're like, bro, what are we doing out here?

Like they're complaining to Moses.

Like in the entire 40 years, they're just one minute God can do something, they're complaining about the fact that we don't have enough water.

Well, why don't we have food?

Like it's just one thing after another, and yet God still patiently walks with them.

There were their consequences, certainly, but he still patiently walks with them.

So I think for me, the thing that helps me to come to God authentically, even in spite of my own shortcomings, is knowing that a very part, the very character of him is that he's patient.

And that's almost like I have I have amazing grandchildren.

And of course, as they mature, you have bigger expectations from them as they mature.

But my my youngest Trey, man, like he can do no wrong.

Like he's not even three yet.

And he can break something.

Oh man, don't do that.

Like, my patience for him is a much bigger than it would be for his 10-year-old sister because I expect more from her because, like, hey, you're 10, you should know better than that.

But I still don't expect that 10-year-old to act like my 22-year-old son.

Right.

So for me, if I as a finite being have the ability to hold space for all these individuals in my life and I have different expectations, I can only imagine an infinite God.

And that's so when I look at myself, no matter how long I've been walking with the Lord, he's just looking at me as like a toddler who's just banging over.

Like very true.

My poor son, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Get your get up, man.

It's gonna be okay.

Like, so that's kind of it's helped me to stop taking myself so seriously.

And I think too, we you know, we obviously have the luxury of having the canon right in front of us.

And so when we jump from page to page, it can it in in real time it's moments or seconds, but these are these are years, years and years, and God's like, hey, stay away from that.

Hey, don't do that, hey, I've tried to warn you about this, and then we see them go into captivity or we see something terrible happen to them, you know, ramifications of their behavior, and we go, that's an angry God.

Right, exactly.

Yeah, this has been a really long time that this has happened.

So and this is the consequence of their decisions, and I think that's just the that's the truth of it.

Like, you know, we we you know, uh another thing, you know, beyond Exodus, but also like when the children of Israel come out, they're completely free.

And then you see this cycle, especially during the judges, where like you just see like, and Israel did evil, was in the sight of the Lord, then another one comes in and they did evil, was in it, like it's like, bro, again, yeah, like we're back here again, but I think that that's meant to be a humbling reality for but we do the same thing.

Yeah, and so God is gracious, but do I believe that he has expectations as we grow?

And so do I believe that sometimes he's allows us to deal with the weight of the consequences of our decisions?

Sure.

Yeah, um, and so I don't believe that that's an angry, vengeful God.

It's more so the same way as like me raising my kids, like, hey, you made this decision, so there's gonna be a deeper consequence because my expectation of you as an 18-year-old is that you would do better.

So here's what that's gonna look like for you versus what it would look like for a seven-year-old.

So the consequence may look different based on maturity and expectations, but nonetheless, God's love and allowing us to experience those consequences is not an absence of love, it's actually a sign of helping us to grow.

Yeah, and I think you know, misrepresentation of of God, of Jesus is is a real thing too.

I saw someone on the internet once say, but you know, someone on the internet I saw say, if someone plays Mozart poorly, you don't blame Mozart.

You you know, you blame the person who played it poorly.

But for whatever reason when it comes to God, we we have a difficulty in seeing past the person who plays Jesus poorly.

Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense.

And so I think if we can approach scripture holistically, looking at the entire story, we we do see God's patience as long as suffering and and his grace towards us.

Uh kind of wrapping up this this episode here.

Somebody's curious, or like, all right, I I've heard a lot about Jesus, specifically in this season of you know, um Easter, Holy Week, post post-resurrection.

Um I've maybe been to church a couple times.

I maybe this is the first time I'm hearing about any of this.

What's the next step for them?

What what do you think is a is a good way for them to continue their curiosity and continue their journey about learning who Jesus is, what the Bible is all about?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I everybody's next step can look different.

Okay.

And depending on what your experience has been and what your journey is, it may look different.

But I would say um find find a good church.

And and I know that that seems like such an easy copy and paste answer, and I know it's not easy to find a church that that resonates with you that you resonate with.

Like it's genuinely relationship, and do I feel at home?

And I'm not talking about like a church that makes you feel good, that preaches the messages that don't challenge you, like I'm not talking about that, but it is a personality fit.

Like you just gotta find a space that you fit in.

Um, but finding a church and just keep showing up.

I I think that's the biggest thing and and and and being as patient, if humanly possible, with God as he has been with you.

Because I do believe that sometimes when we're on this journey and we're trying to make sense of things, our expectation is that everything is gonna line up perfectly over the next two weeks, over the next three weeks.

Like we give God like kind of like this window of time to like kind of prove himself.

But my hope is that wherever people are is that you can find a spot if you have Christian friends, like have conversations, um, be curious.

That's something that I feel like once again we we have seen that people are afraid to have.

Now, one of the things I do really credit this current generation for is they're curious, they they question things, they challenge things.

And here's the thing, especially for us older saints that are out there, the the gospel can handle that.

Yeah, we can handle that.

I feel like we used to just have to feel like we don't question God, don't act like no, the bottom it can handle these questions.

You can absolutely challenge things that don't resonate with you, but just don't insist upon yourself.

In other words, don't let your feelings be the metric of all truth.

Let that be an indicator, but pursue it.

And there will always be a space, if you're ever in the will of God, that will require you to come to the end of yourself.

If you fit neatly into the gospel story and it requires nothing of you, then I would suspect that you have a false gospel.

But if you find a gospel that that inspires you but also challenges you, that's where you want to lean into that.

Because I've never seen God's hand on something that doesn't require some measure of sacrifice.

Yeah.

I mean, Israel literally means r wrestle with God, wrestle with God.

So I think we can look at God's people and use that as an example for how we can live our lives too.

1,000%.

Or one thing you didn't mention they could do is tune into the next episode of After the Message.

We got a we got a great new season coming up, and uh we're excited to to be able to have these conversations.

I think they're you know not only you know beneficial for um people who have been in the faith for a long time, but like we just talked about, people who are curious, people who are seeking.

So uh make sure you guys stay tuned to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast for a few more of these conversations, and uh yeah, we'll catch you next time.

Love it.

Thanks for listening to After the Message.

If you want to learn more about Celebration Church Orlando, visit our website, celebrationorl.org, or follow us on social media at celebrationorl.