S1 E2 | The Holy Spirit, Spiritual Trauma, and the Fruit of Faith | After the Message

Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

This is a segment we like to call After the Message, where the conversation about life, God, and the Bible continue beyond Sunday.

We hope today's episode will encourage, enlighten, and inspire you.

Hey, welcome back to another edition of After the Message, a new season here at Celebration Church Orlando.

Um, we got one episode under our belt.

I think it went pretty well.

Man, we're professionals at this point.

Yeah, pretty much.

We could take the show on the road, Nate.

We could take the show on the road.

We're looking for sponsors, et cetera, et cetera.

Not really, but anyways, so glad that you're listening.

Uh, if you've stumbled along this podcast, if you are um if you're new here, welcome.

If you've been listening, uh, you know, it's been a while.

We were talking about that.

Been over a year since we dropped one of these, so um it's time.

It's time, it is definitely time, maybe even overdue.

But uh yeah, in our in our first episode back, we we talked a little bit about just the the holy week season, uh Easter, and even post-Easter, and where we are uh as a church, if you're not privy to Celebration Church Orlando calendar, uh we are in the book of Acts and we are looking at the um well, it's not really the introduction, maybe we can talk a little bit about that too.

That's that's a good place to go.

But we are looking at the prominence, how about that, of the Holy Spirit and his activity in in the early church.

And so that's kind of what our focus will be today, if that's cool with you.

I love it, man.

Let's go.

So let's just go really basic.

You know, who is who is the Holy Spirit for um for people who may not be familiar or people who need to be reacquainted.

Yeah, I you know, I feel like that's um it's an amazing question, and it could be a loaded question because I think at at its core, we're we're trying our best to define God.

And and and that in and of itself, we know that we fall short because vocabulary can never truly capture the essence of God.

So I think sometimes when I begin to think about as as they would call it, the Godhead, like what are the what are the things that we know that we can point to are the persona of God.

We know God the Father, we know God the Son, and then we have the Holy Spirit.

And and if we're honest, we we recognize that God the Father and God the Son, because of just their presence, their prominence, it's so easy to kind of identify with that.

One, because just even in our human terms, I understand what a father is, I understand what a son is.

The spirit becomes this abstract nuance of like, well, what is that?

Is that a force or an energy?

So I think the best way to define or describe the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit is the active personal presence of God.

Um He indeed is a part of the Godhead.

We see in scripture that he can be grieved, like he is literally the presence of God.

Now, when you break down the semantics of it and we look at whether it's um pneuma or we look at the ruach, they would say it's the breath of God, the literal life force of God.

So if we were to try to take God and put him into the context of our humanity, which in and of itself is impossible to do, but if we try to put God in the context of that, it's like we have flesh, we have bone, and we have breath.

The very breath we breathe is the thing that gives us life.

That is how the Holy Spirit is described in as it relates to the Godhead.

It's the literal breath, the life force of God.

Okay.

And it seems as though, you know, the Bible is sort of not proportionally split into, but uh chronologically almost split into um, you know, Old Testament, New Testament.

It seems like in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is mentioned more, seems to be more active.

It just it just seems to be more of a central theme than the Old Testament, or perhaps it's not as obvious or explicit.

Is the Holy Spirit around in the Old Testament?

Yeah, I mean, he's very active.

In fact, what you'll find is from the very beginning, when it speaks about like in Genesis 1, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was out form and void, darkness upon the face of the thief, and the spirit of God hovered.

That spirit is the rua, the literal presence of God is hovering.

So um, he's there on page one, yeah, like literally there.

And so we begin to kind of see, once you begin to recognize the definition of the spirit and the activity of the spirits, you can't pretty much land on the page of the Bible and not see it in some way or another.

But I would say the personality that begins to come a lot more clearer as we get into the New Testament.

I think the reason why in the Old Testament it's a little bit more abstract is because people were chosen to contain the Spirit of God.

And that was typically for a very specific task.

It would say the Spirit of God came on David, or the Spirit of God even came on Samson when he was in battle.

Like it wasn't something that he embodied, it would come down, descend, he would be empowered, and then it would once again withdraw.

So it was definitely a presence, but there was no conduit that allowed the Holy Spirit to remain and dwell the believer because the believer was always going to be considered not holy ground.

But because of Christ, now we're seen as the righteousness of God.

Now he actually dwells within us, and that changes the dynamics significantly because now he's available to all believers, and that changes the way that we understand our assignments, our calling, and even the promptings that we feel.

So I would say the old testament was more about the Holy Spirit being on them, the New Testament is about the Holy Spirit being in us.

And I'm assuming that Pentecost is the the significant point in which we see that take place, right?

Is when believers are gathered all together and then the Holy Spirit.

Now, there is a little bit of a a both and as you would like to say, where the Holy Spirit rests on them but also inhabits them at the same time.

Are we are we tracking on that?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, there's there's the the resting on, and that's the that's the the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

That's like resting on, and I guess we would say resting on the church.

That's the Holy Spirit that's outpouring on the church, and then the individual indwelling that becomes the being filled.

So on the day of Pentecost, we see both.

We see Peter talk about he pulls from the prophet Joel to the Holy Spirit's going to rain down on all flesh, but then he also says, but repent and be filled.

So there's a moment where the church has a Holy Spirit on it, but then we as believers have the Holy Spirit in us.

So it's a beautiful space where we see both of them come together.

So in essence, we are we're the temple then.

Yes.

We're or the tabernacle, whatever it may be.

So now it's God's whole idea in the first place was never really like a place built by human hands.

Absolutely.

It was his hands that created us.

Yeah, it was always his intent.

Um I I always go back to um Exodus.

And so Exodus 25, we see where the tabernacle is being crafted and all those things.

But there's a beautiful moment where God comes to Moses and he says, Okay, I want you to build a tabernacle so that I may dwell with my people.

And that, for whatever reason, man, like early in my faith walk, when I really got exposed to God dwelling with his people and understood the the nuances of tabernacle temple, then ultimately us um being the temple of God, it just it just hits differently when you know that from the very beginning, from in the garden, God's desire was always to have unbroken fellowship with his with his creation.

Um, and that unbroken fellowship meaning that there's no barrier, there's no there's no structure, there's no sin that keeps us from cohabitating um in the presence of a holy God.

So when we see how all the things that have happened in the Old Testament, sacrificial system, Jesus being the fulfillment of that, which then paves the way for the Holy Spirit to come, we're now living in the fulfillment.

And ultimately, if we really think about it, we become the embodiment of the new Eden, where we're like God dwells with his believers.

There's no barrier, and I think that's a beautiful thing, man.

And it seems a little bit odd.

Well, I don't know, we can talk about it a little bit, but Jesus is Jesus ascends back into heaven, right?

After his resurrection, like we talked about in in the first episode.

He he ascends into heaven, but before he does so, he tells his followers, like, hey, it's better that I go.

And they're going, Hey, no, it's not.

What the heck?

Like, like we've we followed you all this time, we you know, we adhered to your ways, like we believe that who you are, who you say you are.

Now we definitely believe because you came back from the dead, and now you're telling us, like, all right, I'm out.

Yeah.

Um, and then he says, No, it's better that I go because I'm gonna send the Holy Spirit.

Is there a world where they can't exist together?

Like Jesus and all this, like, you know, can you explain the significance of that?

Do you know?

I mean, yeah, I I feel like um in the simplest terms, um, and and this is gonna mess with some of our theology a little bit, but let's let's brace ourselves.

When Jesus was walking the earth in flesh and bone and blood, he was localized.

So though he is God in the flesh, again, brace ourselves.

Because he's in the flesh, there's a limitation to what that looks like.

So he's in Jerusalem, but he's also not in Galilee.

That doesn't mean that his impact, his influence isn't still there, sure.

But he's physically in this location.

You see that there are instances where where Jesus is passing through towns, and and one of the things that I've always been fascinated with when you read the gospels, and we can almost overlook it, is that Jesus is passing through towns.

There's tons of people that are trying to get into his presence.

And there are some people who didn't get their healing because he's passing through, he's being mobbed and he's leaving and things like that.

He was very much like a localized presence.

So so that's a that's a reality.

Um, so yes, he can send his word, but he was localized.

When he begins to speak about the Holy Spirit coming and it's better, now that means that no longer is he localized, but he now has decentralized that now he's empowering his believers to be ambassadors of him, taking his presence everywhere that believers are.

So I would say that, you know, the the tension of what we saw versus what we're talking about now is Jesus was localized.

Now through the Holy Spirit, he's decentralized.

So I heard somebody say this way the Holy Spirit basically brings Jesus everywhere.

And that's why you were able to see in the book of Acts, like the church explode and miracles are taking place in Jerusalem, but they're also taking place um in Samaria, like things are happening all around the globe at the same time because it's no longer just concentrated on the physical presence of Jesus in a given moment, it's everywhere, and that's the power of the Spirit.

That's interesting because you know, typically, well, maybe not typically, in in some circles the Holy Spirit is is more prominent, but it seems to be in the in the Trinity, the less talked about, the less the the less interacted with, you know, kind of how we started out out the podcast today, you know, there's more mystery around it when in reality um that's probably the fulfillment of God.

What what we were getting to uh throughout this whole time of the old covenant and the new covenant, it was to get to sure, you know, God's omnipresent, he transcends time and space.

We understand that, but you know, the presence of God being able to um fill every believer, sure.

But yet we we're not accustomed to it or we're not fam as familiar with the Holy Spirit as maybe we should be.

What why is that?

I think that that list can be extensive.

Okay.

I think I have a I have a couple of views on that.

Okay.

One one of them would be um people have made it weird.

Okay.

Um and and this is something that, you know, we've we've talked about this before, but one of the things that I think we often have a discrepancy of is like what what do we mean by the Holy Spirit, the activity of the Spirit in a service?

What like what does it really look like?

And because the Holy Spirit meets us where we are and he functions through where we are, the expression of it can look different.

So when I'm in Africa, you and I both have gone to Zimbabwe, the way that they express um the presence of God is also connected to how they express themselves culturally.

They're very open, demonstrative people.

And so that they're very animated.

And so in their services, you're going to see the Holy Spirit working through their culture.

Then you go into other spaces where people may be more contemplative and the Holy Spirit may be working through the way that they process things.

So I think the thing that makes it such a mystery is that there's not a one-size-fits-all.

So even within the faith, we're often debating about what's the Holy Spirit and what's not, because one expression looks different than someone else's, and we're completely missing the point.

So I think we've muddied the waters by us trying to pinpoint what is the Holy Spirit and what is not.

I also believe that we confuse the Holy Spirit with um with feelings instead of fruit.

So, so what often happens is, and and I I kind of shared this in the message that we preached a couple weeks ago, um, about like, what does it mean when you feel like, man, I feel the presence of God in here.

I I I've shared, man, I grew up in a culture where that was very much the litman's test of any church.

Like, if you go in and do you feel God's presence.

And again, that's connected to my culture.

I come up in a holiness Pentecostal environment where, you know, you go into services, you you have worship songs, you you get the chills, you get excited, man.

It's a powerful feeling.

But then at the same time, bro, like last summer, Megan and I went to New York, Broadway, and I saw Hamilton on Broadway.

I got the chills.

By the end, by the end of this, the whole deal, bro, I had tears in my eyes.

Wow.

I had that same experience when I watched The Matrix.

Like, so if if if the Holy Spirit is simply meant to be what gives you the chills and gives you this feeling, there's a lot of things that can replicate that experience in your life.

My son's gonna be graduating from college in another week or so.

I'm confident I'm gonna have the chills when they call his name.

I'm gonna be filled with tears.

So we have to make sure that we don't reduce the Holy Spirit down to just that.

He can work through that, but I think that's another area where we've kind of complicated it as oh, the Holy Spirit is here because we were crying in service and because, nah, it's gotta be more to it than that.

So for me, it's we have to broaden our scope of what it means when we talk about having a genuine encounter.

And to me, that comes down to yes, feelings can be a part of it, but what's the fruit?

And when you look at the fruit of the spirit, you'll actually see that every one of those things are choices.

So when you get to a place where I can choose peace, I can choose joy, that's actually evidence of the spirit.

And I think that's the part that we've overcomplicated out of it.

Yeah, you can pick the right fruit, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Exactly.

Um you help me out with this a lot, and you talk about and and you even mention it there a little bit, is you know, God working through our wirings and our propensities and personalities.

Some some people may be more contemplative, some people may be a little bit more intellectual, some people may be more emotive or uh uh em empathetic, what whatever the the case may be.

It seems like that could be dangerous, right?

Because you you are uh identifying well, this is what we talked about a little bit on the first episode.

This is what works, this is what God means to me, this is who he is to me.

How do we allow God to work through us in the way that he's wired us, but also not create him in our own image?

Does that make sense?

It makes that's a great question, and yes, it makes perfect sense.

So in a nutshell, man, I I think it comes down to the Bible says what it says.

So for me, that's always the the metric.

Um when I look at people like Paul, and again, like for me, I'm really big in like looking at the characters of the Bible, looking at the personalities of the people in the Bible, looking at their temperaments, looking at the way that that God works and moves through them, and you'll see there are different personalities that God has used throughout the course of time.

You have Moses who didn't want to be overly outspoken, so he was a little bit more selective, and Aaron had to speak on his behalf.

You have people like Peter, who's very vocal and bold and impetuous, and and God's able to use that.

Paul, who's profoundly logical and can read a room and and even the way that he writes.

So for me, it's it's not a matter of this is what works for me and reducing God to that, but it's more so how is the way that I'm wired, God using that to advance the kingdom and move people forward, and even myself.

So if you've created a version of God that doesn't move you forward or challenge you in any way, then once again, I think we've kind of turned God into a figure that is meant to make us feel comfortable instead of feeling challenged.

But when I begin to consider, yes, God has given me these experiences of being raised in holiness environments.

He's also put me in academic spaces and mental health things and all those things are converging all at once.

Like I believe that God has ordered my steps.

So how do how does God express himself through those things?

Not in a way to reduce God or reduce my responsibility, but certainly in a way that is activating the way that he's wired me.

And I think the last thing I would say to that is the reason why I come back to scripture is there are things that the Bible says.

So when the Bible says, magnify the Lord with me, or clap your hand, oh ye people, or lift your hands in the sanctuary, that's where I realize that my response to the presence of God cannot be limited to the way that I'm wired.

So when I read passages that speak about how I'm supposed to engage God, that's where I think people often will be like, well, I'm I'm more of a reserved person.

I get that.

But if the Bible is saying that enter his gates with thanksgiving and to his courts with praise, that's not a personality.

That's a that's an assignment that he's telling us to do that.

So those are the areas where I try to make sure that yes, I want God to animate the way that he's wired me, but I don't want the way that he's wired me to justify why I can't engage him on his terms.

Yeah.

Do you think there are even different expressions of animation or different degrees of animation?

Or is that a is that a local church decision, or is it kind of the makeup of the culture in which you're in, you know, like what because again, we don't we don't necessarily want to we don't want to look at something and go, well that's spirit filled and that isn't, unless you get uh a feeling from the spirit or you get a discernment from the spirit that it isn't.

But based off of expressions, you know, a church in New York versus a church in Zimbabwe, for example, they're gonna look totally different.

But but yeah, like what are the degrees or levels can there be that?

Yeah, I I mean I I can't give like a boilerplate answer to that.

Yeah.

Um if you were to ask me this 20 plus years ago, I would certainly say that it looks one way.

And not I wouldn't be as reductive as saying only one way, but I would have been like, this is what it looks like.

Um one of the things that's helped me tremendously, and I think I've shared this before, was being able to travel.

Um when I went to London and I saw the way that they engaged the presence of God, particularly at the church I was at.

Um and and yes, they were emotive to a certain extent, but it looked different than the Pentecostal churches I was uh I was raised in, but you could feel back to feelings, you could genuinely feel and sense the presence of God moving.

And and and and it was undeniable.

The more that God put me around different types of people, and this is why I love our church so much, is because we're so profoundly diverse in different backgrounds and different experiences.

Like there was a time when I used to believe that the the louder the expression, the the more passionate the plea, the more fervent, the more, the more the demons would tremble because and then I also been in spaces where someone can calmly just command the room without doing all that.

So I've learned and seen that God can work through all of it.

So there that's that's an absolute one of the things that was very humbling for me is a couple of years ago, uh Megan and I had an opportunity to spend some time in Greece.

And we were able to go to these monasteries.

And these are Eastern Orthodox Christians.

So they are Protestant, they they do believe largely what we believe, but they also have a lot of like symbolism that I guess you would kind of pull from Catholicism that they still they they kind of approach it with very deep reverence.

And I mean, these are monasteries that are thousands of years old, like these are just ancient spaces, and so they're not running around, they're not waving flags, they're not doing any of that stuff.

But bro, when you walk in there, there's not a single person in there you could feel, yeah, you could sense that it was saturated with prayer and it's just powerful.

So the more that I've traveled, the more that I've explored, the more that I have seen these expressions look different.

But where I'll tell you there is uniformity is there's a you there's a uniformity in the sense of the reverence.

That's great.

So wherever there's a sense of reverence, that reverence may look like you're lifting your hands, there's different things.

But if if your approach to God is casual, that's the one that I would call as caution.

But if it's reverence, and sometimes reverence looks like, oh, like it's almost like when a king comes in pleading, that's okay.

If that's what you're if that's where you're right as far as your expression goes, there should always be some form of reverence.

And so that's typically the Lippmann's test for me is like, yes, it may look different, some people may be more vocal, some people may be more reserved, but is there a reverence?

And if there's reverence, then I believe that that's a posture that would insinuate that there's a holiness that we recognize with the presence of God.

Yeah, if if someone says, Hey, I'm I'm a Bible believing Christian, you know, I believe in the gospel, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and yet I don't I don't sense or I don't feel again or m my walk or my expression doesn't look like that.

Am I missing it?

Or you know, perhaps I don't I don't get a sense that of the presence of God, maybe that I assume other people are.

You know, one comparison can be pretty dangerous, so definitely caution against that.

But I do know that they're just from talking to people, there's a fear that they're missing out.

I guess that's what I'm getting at.

There's a fear that they're they're missing out on all God has for them and all that God wants to do through their life because it's not necessarily expressed in the way that their neighbor has expressed it, or it has their neighbor hasn't even communicated to them their interaction with God.

Sure, sure.

How do you encourage that person?

Well, man, I I think um one, coming back to you know, being mindful of comparison, these are typically going to be conversations that will require a little bit more depth and seeing if there is a hesitation or a resistance to some measure of surrender.

Yeah.

Um, more often than not, when I do have chances to talk with folks who are more chill and more reserved, like I am.

Like I, you know, I I lift my hands in worship, not that it's about all this stuff, but I'm I'm fully engaged, I'm excited, and then some services, I'm I'm more reflective, I'm thinking, it may lead me to a space of repentance.

Like I'm all over the board when it comes to like how I respond in any given moment.

But by default, I'm not like a super, like, yeah, like that's just not the way that I'm wired.

But I know that I genuinely try to live a life of total surrender.

So to me, a total surrender is not being led by feelings, but but God, I'm gonna lift my hands.

I want to do these things because your scriptures and encourage me to do so.

So for people that are that that would say, I'm wondering if I'm missing something, I will just simply say, are you doing the things that you can do?

Are you are you surrendering things?

Are you lifting your hands?

Is there is there a mental block?

Is there an emotional block?

Is there some kind of spiritual trauma?

Like what is like, is there anything that's there?

And just and that's again a pastoral, just honest discussion about like what has been their experience with the things of God?

What where were they raised at?

What have they seen?

Because a lot of times, um I you know, I love technology, you know, we're on here as a result of that, bro.

So like I get it.

But but the thing is, man, like there are certain things you see on social media, podcasts, like streams from churches or whatever.

And I honestly believe that different churches have different assignments.

And you may have a church that just has this like fiery, like just everybody's weeping in the seats type.

That might be their thing.

That might be the thing that they're known for.

That might be what that pastor's wiring is, and they're leading their church into this extremely deeply expressive.

Some pastors have a grace on their life for profound evangelism, and that's the filter.

And so we all have these different ways that God uses us.

I would simply say that I think that all of those things have a place in the body.

Um, and so just making sure that I'm not looking at what someone's unique church is called to do and believe that that should be my daily experience.

And so making just making sure that I'm not looking at like a, you know, like how we used to have like um revival services, like, okay, like we're gonna have like this conference we're gonna go to.

You know, that conference you go to it, you get filled up and then you come back home and then you try to integrate it.

And but it's just trying to make sure that I'm not trying to live on this wave that every day is Christmas morning.

Um for lack of better words.

Yeah.

Yeah, seasons, right?

Yeah.

You know, the the ebbs and flows of life.

I think that is I think that's given testament in the scriptures too.

You know, not everything's a feast, but not everything's a fast.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Um and it has to do with you mentioned e even the body, like the arm can't say can't be jealous of the leg, and and vice versa.

And you know, God gave different gifts, and he also gave um apostle, you know, pastor, prophet, evangelist.

Like we we all play pivotal roles.

And so uh I and the technology thing is so true, man.

It it it is unfortunate that and I'm guilty of it just just as much as anybody as at looking at someone or something or some entity and going, I think you guys are missing the mark.

Sure.

When in reality, like, no, they may just be serving who God's asked them to serve.

Um but it's just our exposure, it's just our exposure to to too much of it.

Yeah, it's I mean, and that's that's the that's the gift and the curse, yeah, is that we have so much exposure.

And so here here's what I come back to, man.

I think about how our God could use literally anything to kind of like take a human experience and relate it to what it means to be in fellowship with him, right?

So there's two of the most prominent veins that God uses.

He uses the concept of fruit, abiding, taking root, growth, that's maturity, like all those things.

That's a a very strong theme throughout scripture.

But when it comes to like this thing that we do that's called the church and that who we are, he refers to it as a marriage.

It's the bride.

And so when you think about that, like, yeah, I I'm committed to my marriage.

I'm faithful to my marriage, I'm faithful to my wife.

And there are some days, bro, like we are we are locked in step and everything feels great.

There are other days, man, that my wife might be watching.

Every day feels amazing.

Every day feels but you catch like it's it's a commitment and it's a and it's an assignment.

And sometimes like we go on vacations and we have great times, and then other times money's tight, but we're in it, and that's the beauty of building a life together.

So God uses the concept of marriage, which we can all relate to, those of us who are who are experiencing it, and you realize, like, yeah, like, but every day is not vacation.

Yeah.

Some days are, man, how are we going to pay for this?

And what are we trying to do with that?

And I don't know how I feel about that.

And then some other days, like, yo, let's go and have a date night.

Like, you just have these experiences.

So I think that's meant to be a picture of the complexity, but the nuance of what it means to be in fellowship with God.

So let's stop thinking that my walk with God that every single day is going to feel like the honeymoon.

Yeah.

It's it's just not.

Sometimes the bride be acting a fool.

And yes, they do.

Not in hours.

I'm talking about the church.

Of course.

Right?

Sometimes we act a fool against the water.

Go away to clean it up.

Move on.

Anyways, um let's see.

So I can imagine that there are people listening who have experienced who have been in environments where they have experienced, you know, to throw a buzzword out there, you know, spiritual trauma, or they've experienced the Holy Spirit expressed in ways that were manipulative.

Sure.

Or, and you know, not everything is about our comfort level, but um the red light was going off, right?

Sure.

And so now they're like, nah, I'm good.

Yeah.

Uh, but there's still a longing and a sensing to what is life all about?

Like, is there a creator God and what is my purpose?

You know, uh, in the last last episode, you know, you talked about finding a local church, but if someone's having a really difficult time like getting out of the car in the parking lot to walk through those doors, man, like there's gotta be something they can do, right?

Yeah, I I think that's um that's a very valuable question because I do feel that not to get into like some kind of like end time, doomsday prophet vein, but scripture does speak about how there's gonna be a a great falling away, but it also speaks about how people's hearts are gonna be turned and changed and and brought back um in the last days, with last days again, that's a broad statement, so we won't go down that rabbit trail.

Okay.

Um episode three.

Yeah, episode three.

Um so so we we realize that that's a broad statement.

So, yes, people experience pain, and and and I can't overstate how how awful it is.

And and I've often wrestled with the ideas because I've seen people go through deconstruction, and then I've often seen people who are deconstructing those who are deconstructing, and and it just kind of keeps going into this vicious cycle of trying to justify or not justify and dismiss people's suffering and disappointment.

What I believe is so hurtful about the church, and anytime you experience pain from the people or from the place that is actually supposed to help you, that's what makes it uniquely difficult to overcome.

So when you do go through a space where you do feel like you've experienced some form of trauma of some sort, you know, manipulation or mismanagement or things that really hurt your trust, that's what we're talking about.

We're talking about a breach of trust and there's a heartbreak that goes with it.

So let's let's honor that and let's let's pause there and let's say, like, okay, this is a real thing that's happened.

At the same time, and in the right time, we very rarely allow ourselves to say, man, this food made me sick, I'm never gonna eat again.

Or this restaurant made me sick, I'm never gonna go to a restaurant again.

You just eventually find a different restaurant.

And the way that you do, I know you know, my wife, she's constantly looking at Yelp reviews and trying to figure out hey, do you like this spot?

It's word of mouth.

So I think even for those who have experienced significant wounds at the hands of places that you should have been cared for better, take some time to sit, reflect.

Don't allow yourself to get into echo chambers of other people who are equally disenfranchised and upset.

There's there's certainly safety in that for a season, but then also beginning to explore other options and finding community with people who who want to exhibit and present the fruit of the spirit in hopes of leading you back to a local church.

Because I do think that that's one of the things that that grieves me about this this current movement is that we now have people who are sheep with no shepherd.

And so they they're I'm a believer, I just don't go to church.

And it's like, okay, I I I hear that, I genuinely understand it, but just show me that in the Bible.

And so then we can kind of go, oh no, they had house churches.

I I get all that, but what's the authority?

Like, how how do you ensure that things are being discerned and stored it properly?

And it just kind of creates this whole web of you create the church and God in your own image.

So I do believe that for those who are struggling with that, their next step certainly should be one, sitting with God and genuinely inviting him to begin to mend those wounds.

The next step is, man, what are the things that we typically do when we're trying to rebuild trust with people?

We we begin to slowly rebuild trust.

We have to give them things they can be trusted with and ensure that they steward it well, and then that adds another layer of trust, and then hopefully we can re-establish it.

So I think from there it becomes not trying to find a church that meets your needs, because I think once again, that can kind of create a consumeristic approach to what you're looking for.

Like I'm looking for a church that does these three things, and if they don't, I'm out.

Like I feel like whenever we're talking about being a part of a body, it should be a mutual commitment.

Yeah.

What can I bring?

But what are they providing for me?

And there's a sense of surrender and sacrifice and receiving and giving simultaneously.

So as people are praying and processing, where do you see the fruit of the spirit there?

Like that to me, that's the greatest Lippmann's test.

Is like it's not so much being so zero focused on a person, like that person goes to that church, and I saw them cuss the other day.

I'm not going there.

Like, I think that that's just too linear, but I do believe that you should be able to look at the spirit of a church and see, man, is that a church that they're filled with joy or they're filled with kindness?

Do they seem like they have a sense of peace?

Like, what is their, what is their, what is the fruit in that church?

And if that fruit is there, then I'm going to be willing to watch online.

And then I'll, and then I'll show up one Sunday.

And like I think it's just progressive steps that hopefully can help you to find a way to re-engage.

But it's not, you don't feel like you have to jump in the deep end right away.

Yeah.

But um, don't be a consumer because if you're a consumer, you can always find something to complain about and you will find yourself unsettled.

And then years down the road, um, you're still not rooted, you're not growing because growth does require pruning, growth does require um going through some disappointment, but you shouldn't have to deal with suffering as well.

So it's a tension of invite God in, take steps that allow someone to demonstrate that they are trustworthy, and then trust God.

Yeah.

And it's a bunch of little decisions too.

You you kind of turn around one day and you go, Man, it's been five years, it's been a decade.

I I'm not How did I get here?

You know what I mean?

I I think another key component to that, and you alluded to is is just prayer.

You know, like if you're not going to if you're gonna sit on the bench for a little bit as it will, at least invite God to sit to sit with you.

Like, you know, the our greatest means of of connection with him is through prayer, and it's and it's easier said than done.

You know, it's something that I definitely still struggle with, but like God, can you if you are who you say you are, can you lead me where you want me to go?

And I don't I don't think he's we've heard those stories like God if you're real, the God if you're real stories, like and then something crazy happens, you know, and that's not everybody's story, but eventually, you know, he will lead you, right?

Yeah, and sometimes, man, it it is going to a place that may be completely different from what you may get used to.

And and and I think that's why the consumer approach and uh why the prayer is so important, because like we we we tend to like when we find ourselves in certain environments, like what psychology would tell you is that we have a tendency to continue to stay in a cycle of our dysfunction until we break out of it.

So when you are hurt at a certain type of church, whatever that may be, even though it hurts you, you still find yourself being drawn to churches that are similar to that.

And maybe there's something about the way that they operate, something to deal with the way that they're structured, that just seems to be something that doesn't resonate well, but yet you still find yourself drawn to it.

So then you have the other end of it, which is like, okay, but Lord, where are you leading me to?

Um, man, I I can like I I was raised in in all African American contexts for me, in the first half of my my faith journey.

And and you know, we had some amazing experiences, we had some challenges, but it was beautiful.

But then God said, the next step for you is I want you to go to a more multicultural church.

And I'm so thankful that he did.

But when I first started attending um celebration back in Jacksonville, it was different.

The music was different, the vibes were different.

But God said, But this is where I'm calling you to go.

And I'm so thankful that he did because it was through that I was exposed to different cultures through that.

I traveled different parts of the globe and was exposed to so many different things and worshiping with people who don't look like me, who don't think like me, who don't vote like me.

It just broadened my perspective beyond just my own little bubble.

And there's not that I would say that there's few things that have been more precious to my faith journey than being in spaces that were different than where I started.

I still stand on the foundation of where I started, but I'm able to bring that into this, but also be able to bring this into that.

That's such a cool testament to the church at large, man.

Like that's what it was supposed to be originally, is all the people of the earth, you know, in the family of God.

And that's exactly what the spirits that's exactly the mission right now.

Is he going for it to try and bring the family back together, uh, every tribe, nation, and tongue.

So um I think I think we're we're we're we are in definitely some weird, difficult, unprecedented times, if you will.

Sure, sure.

But we're also in some really cool times too.

It's a lot of opportunity.

We get to see a lot of really cool things that that God does.

And uh, if we are so cynical, uh we're gonna miss out on some great moves of God.

I think that's the I think that's the key, man.

It's just being open to the idea that, and this is gonna be something that's gonna be hard for us to accept, that God is different than us.

That God moves in ways that are different than us, that that that that he his strategy is different than ours, and that he uses people that maybe we wouldn't use.

And I think the the most the most scary thing that I think you can be as a believer is absolutely certain that you have everything figured out with God.

Yeah.

So I've I've grown to have a sense of the way that I understand the things of God and my assignment in this, but I genuinely try my best to not project my experiences and my calling and my assignment and and superimpose that onto everyone else.

So genuinely, Megan will tell you like my biggest thing is like, man, everybody's on their own journey.

And and and there's some things that you see, and some things you may not agree with, and some things that may not resonate with who I am, but I've seen God use it, man.

And and even if it's even if it's things that I just kind of like, ah, I cringe at some of that stuff, it's like, but man, maybe maybe God's using it.

I've seen I've seen that it hopefully will produce fruit.

And so for me, it's just I'm always just praying that, you know, and and scripture talks about that.

Like, you know, when when the disciples came to Jesus and said, hey man, there's a guy that's over here, you know, baptizing, but he's not with us.

He's like, as long as he's not against us, then he's with us, man.

Let's not, let's not get focused on that.

Um, so yeah, I know that some people have the assignment of like, you know, woof alert, this guy's a false prophet.

Okay, man, like that's just not my assignment.

I feel like my assignment is to be faithful to the place that God's called me, extend the benefit of the doubt, um, and just pray for things that I don't understand.

Yeah.

And your next assignment is to stay tuned for our next episode of After the Message.

Come on.

That's it.

Great segue.

Yeah, thanks for joining us today.

So thankful uh that you're with us.

And uh yeah, we'll talk to you soon as we continue our new season of After the Message.

Love it, man.

See you guys soon.

Thanks for listening to After the Message.

If you want to learn more about Celebration Church Orlando, visit our website, celebrationorl.org, or follow us on social media at celebrationorl.