S1 E4 | Angels, Demons, and the Supernatural | After the Message

Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

This is a segment we like to call After the Message, where the conversation about life, God, and the Bible continue beyond Sunday.

We hope today's episode will encourage, enlighten, and inspire you.

Welcome back to the future Emmy nominated podcast.

After the message.

I like you.

So glad that you are joining us.

If you are stumbling along this, you're on the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

And uh this is a how do we say it?

A refresh, a relaunch, I guess, of our After the Message segment here at Celebration Church Orlando.

And like good disciples, we're multiplying.

Three, three of us today on the on the show.

Come on, Nate.

I've got the senior pastor of Celebration Church Orlando, Pastor Keith, our resident theologian.

Oh, geez.

I don't know about that.

Pastor Vinny.

And I'm Nate.

So thankful that you're here with Nate the Great.

Yes.

Bishop.

Great.

I'm a bishop apparently today as well, too.

Absolutely.

1000%.

Um yeah, at Celebration Church Orlando, we are currently post-resurrection Sunday.

We're in our uh series going through the book of Acts, just kind of looking at the resurrection, the implications of that.

And so you can't read Acts without discovering the supernatural.

Come on.

Well, you can't read the Bible really without discovering that.

But Acts in particular takes on a little bit of a new light.

So we figured we'd discuss the supernatural today.

How's that sound to you guys?

I I'd love it.

It's a bold topic.

I'm glad you decided to go here.

Yeah, this was all my idea.

That was a great opening, man.

The rest of the episode, we don't know, but the opening.

So I just want to kick us off with a very a softball, if you will, an easy question.

And Vinny, I'll start with you.

What do we mean by the term supernatural?

Just easily explain that, you know, within a matter of moments.

Yes.

Well, I'll try to make it very simple.

Um and I'm not trying to talk about what other people think about supernatural.

For me, everything that it's not natural or everything that it's hard for me to explain, um, I would consider supernatural.

Now, different people might attribute something that that can't explain to a force, an idea, a miracle, a god.

Um, I believe that the source of everything that it's supernatural is God.

Um, and I and also that's the reason why it's so hard to explain what it is because supernatural is God.

And if you can explain who God is, man, we're gonna give you a certificate, you can go to heaven tomorrow.

Yeah, yes, fast pass.

You can skip the line 1000%.

But I I think that's it.

Supernatural is everything that I can't explain, and the source of it is God.

Yeah.

What where do we find this?

Do we find sort of a definition in the scriptures, or is it just is it assumed when you read through it that there are supernatural events occurring, or kind of like you said, if I can't explain it, then I would just categorize that as a supernatural occurrence, right?

But does scripture explicitly talk about that at all?

Or are you just reading the pages realizing, like, yeah, I there isn't really not a great way, humanly speaking, to categorize this?

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

I I would say, I would say it this way.

Um, I was recently watching uh a TV show that seemed as if it was a drama.

And so you approach a show with the oh, this is the premise of the show, this is the way that it functions.

I get the rules of a drama, and then it threw in like a sci-fi twist at the end.

And so you're thinking, like, oh, I didn't know that that was what we're bringing into this conversation.

So now it changes the way that I look at it.

So different genres require you to approach it with a certain level of understanding.

And so I think to answer your question, um, I believe the Bible is written in a way where it's assumed or expected that you understand that there's a supernatural worldview, cosmic worldview, if you will.

Like from the very beginning, it it pretty much introduces you to this idea that there are things, so it's supernatural by definition, it's like beyond natural, above natural.

So the very premise of who God is, the very premise of creation, all of that is beyond the realm of something that we could probably easily explain.

So the Bible is written with the assumption that you get that if you're in this genre.

Yeah, yeah.

Let me rephrase something that I said.

I said that supernatural is everything I cannot explain.

Let me rephrase that a little bit.

I think it's there's lots of things natural from this world that I that I can't explain.

I don't know exactly what's happening inside of my stomach right now, right?

Um, but this is natural.

We can bring somebody here and they will explain to you what it is.

Right.

Supernatural is things that I cannot explain that it's beyond logic.

I think that's what I what I meant.

And I am with Pastor Keith.

I think since the beginning, the Bible doesn't, it seems to me that the Bible doesn't try to convince you of the supernatural.

It almost assume you assume that you know.

In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.

That's it.

No time, no matter.

Yeah, it was just this supernatural being creating.

Okay, give me more information about that.

What was happening before, we don't know.

But how God created, we don't know.

We know He spoke things into the existence, but it's almost like the Bible saying, hey, supernatural is a thing, believe it or not, it is.

Yeah, it's understood when you're reading the scriptures.

I've even heard people go so far as to say, like, supernatural is just it's a category for us that doesn't really exist existentially.

In other words, we we have to put language to it in order to explain it.

So we use a term supernatural when in reality it may be the most natural thing that there is.

Have you have you heard about this like view on the supernatural at all?

Yeah, I I think kind of similar to what you're saying, the the view that I was kind of introduced to that kind of tries to capture what you're saying, is in the mind of the biblical writers and the mind of the original audience, they didn't view the supernatural as something that was distinct and separate.

That their view was it's all connected.

So, yes, our senses, it may be the world beyond our natural senses, but that was very much just a part of their reality.

So that's kind of the way that they approach it, and that's how I've heard it explained.

So for me, it's it's it's fascinating when I consider in the church context, and especially when you consider like church here in in the West, like we're seeing that people are genuinely intrigued by things that are beyond their ability to define it.

We see that the highest-selling genres and movies and box office are things that are pursuing, whether it's superheroes, whether it's horror films, people are curious about the supernatural things that are beyond description.

What I find fascinating is that as the world is aching to learn more about things that are beyond us, the church is actually shrinking back from those very things.

We don't talk about it as much.

We feel uncomfortable with it.

People come from different backgrounds, different contexts.

We don't want to freak people out.

So we kind of have like this safed version of it.

But the more you travel and the more that you kind of get the mind of the original writers, it was just very much a part of it.

It wasn't like a separate, distinct thing, it was all intrinsically connected.

Yeah, I agree with that.

And to be very honest with you guys, I think that bothers me a little bit because I see the church trying to I don't want to say avoid, but it it is a little bit avoiding the supernatural with an excuse of, oh, this might be weird, this might be and I don't know how is it possible for a church who worship God who is supernatural to expect something natural from him.

I expect nothing but supernatural coming from a God who is supernatural, yeah.

So it's not awkward to me, it's not common for sure, it's definitely not natural, but it is supernatural and I love it.

It doesn't make me feel weird.

Yeah, it makes me feel excited, actually.

Indeed.

Yeah, yeah.

There's probably a reason to why we are created the way that we are and we can only perceive with our human faculties on a normal day or a given day, if you will, because it would just overwhelm us, right?

Absolutely.

I was having dinner with someone the other day, and they were like, if you could actually see the on the atomic level what is happening around you, which is a very quote natural thing, that would overwhelm you.

So imagine having an encounter with something that transcends the natural level.

Absolutely.

And how much I mean, even when we read scripture and in Acts specifically, or uh at the tomb, when people come in contact with angels, and we'll get into a little bit more of that in a second, they're terrified.

Yes, they're absolutely terrified because they're coming in contact with something that is otherworldly otherworldly, 1000%.

So for sake of our discussion here, you know, we see this in Paul and Silas and uh angels opening prison doors and acts.

What exactly is the a biblical definition of an angel?

Whoever wants to take that one.

I'll I'll kick it over to my my the resident theologian, Vinny, um, and then I'll I'll back clean up anything that I may want to add.

All right.

I think we can well, we need to go back to scripture, and um, I think when we talk about that, uh, we need to mention um Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28, which is the the main references of God creating uh these beings that uh he it was created to worship God, and we're gonna understand later in Hebrews that they were also created to serve us, right?

Um, and then the Bible says that one of this angel who was a very, very nice angel, let's put that way, one day he thought with himself, I just want to be like God.

Yeah, I should be in charge.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's it's incredible.

I I always share that with people around me, it's incredible how how he was the word ambitious, yes, but not too much.

Because I mean, if you admire someone, you look at him or her and you go, I want to be better, right?

I want to play tennis better than Adal, I want to play soccer better than Messi.

But because this angel he knew there's nothing better or greater than God, he thought, I want to be like him.

And then on that day, he caused a rebellion.

Um, and again, you can read about that in in Isaiah 14 and uh Ezekiel 28.

And then the Bible will say that God just asked an angel, um, Michael, to kick him out of um out of heaven, um, and not and he was not alone.

Um theologians will say that a couple of millions of angels was part of their rebellion as well.

They were kicked out of heaven.

Now, something interesting about this is the meaning of the name Michael is who is like God, right?

So while while the angel, um Lucifer or or as as is as known today as Satan was approaching God with this idea, who is like like I want to be like God, Michael was kicking him out, saying, What do you mean?

Who is like God?

Um, so he's away from God.

Almost like a rhetorical question: who is like God?

Is that what I think?

Exactly.

Who is what like what do you mean?

What's in your heart?

Yeah, right.

And then of course, uh, we see that he was kicked out of heaven and now he's here, he's in his earth, and the Bible has lots of nicknames for him.

Um, dragon, serpent, liar, uh you can name it.

Deceiver, deceiver, yeah, yeah, um, or enemy.

Um so yeah, when we talk about supernatural, I believe in God, but I also believe in angels who are still with God, and I believe in demons who are those who uh uh were kicked out of heaven.

Yeah, rebel, yeah, for sure.

So angels are f or demons are fallen angels then?

That's what I believe.

Yeah.

And and what you'll find in the in the demonology pipeline is you'll find that there's a couple of schools of thought on who the the demons are, how did they get there?

Um one of them, and it's one that I agree with, is what Vinny described, and and I think that there's also an additional layer to it.

So what what many people talk about, so the conversation we're having, some would frame it as cosmic.

It's kind of like the language, like it's it's it's happening, the prince of the power to airs, all these other things.

Um so you have spiritual beings as a classification of entities that God has created, and within that you have all these different versions of it.

So angels, I think, would probably be, I think it's probably like the simplest form to kind of capture like a lot of these spiritual beings, but even within that, you have different ones, you have archangels, you have cherubims, you have seraphims, you have different layers within that, and they all have different functions and roles.

And then you have on the other side is is the demons, which people ultimately will reduce to saying, okay, these are fallen angels or angels who rebelled.

Um, now you get into some discussion about how many rebellions were there.

Um, how do you read Genesis 6 when it comes to the sons of God sleeping with the sons of men and or the daughters of men?

And so, how does that translate into the Nephilim and all those things?

So I think in its purest form, a demon by definition would be some entity that has rebelled against God, and now they have different functions and roles and the way that they create havoc on earth and within God's people.

There are literally probably a thousand places we can go from here, which makes it very difficult uh to continue the conversation.

But well, before you go, yeah, let me just add to what he said.

Okay.

Um, if you read the book of Enoch, I don't know if you want to go there or not.

But when you were gonna go Enoch, come on there, come on, brother.

There is I I'm not saying I think it should be in a Bible, I'm not saying I believe in what's written there.

That's we're gonna save that for season two of After the Message, but uh, if you read that, you you will see a differentiation between demons and and falling angels.

Yeah, okay.

Um demons being uh I think what we would consider what a demon is today, and falling angels, they are not necessarily evil.

Um, they were just they are just looking for answers, or they are looking for redemption, or they are looking um for for a body so they can possess.

Uh there's a differentiation between the both of them in the book of Enoch.

Um, if you ask me, or if you ask me, I don't believe that.

I I just think it's angels and demons.

Okay.

And demons and falling angels, they are the same thing, and they are evil.

So I'm glad you brought that up because that's actually kind of where I was going for it.

Just to pump the brakes a little bit on the discussion, because this can be overwhelming for somebody who is just curious, like trying to figure this out, trying to figure out if Jesus is who he says he was, you know.

So I guess from a scripture standpoint, or maybe even an extra-biblical standpoint, what advice or what encouragement could you give to someone who's maybe listening to this right now and going, wait a second, wait a second.

What what are we talking about here?

Sure.

Uh I I'll start here.

And and for me, I I I stand on the the foundation of Jesus is perfect theology.

So everything for me like points to and from Jesus.

So when we talk about like this supernatural worldview and what we're discussing, Jesus believed in demons.

He speaks about them, he confronts them.

So I think even for those of us who are unfamiliar with this, maybe different backgrounds, different denominations, or just completely new and we're curious, um, Jesus tends to be like the safe entry point because we can kind of identify with the way that he had justice for people, the way that he cared for people.

We can identify with that part, and and that part of us is longing for that.

But there's also that other side of Jesus where he talks about how um the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy.

What enemy is he talking about?

Um he speaks about the the enemy, I beheld Satan as he was cast from heaven.

We see these passages where Jesus is confronting demonic spirits.

I am legion, for we are many.

Like, so we do see that that Jesus shows us that he believes in the supernatural, he confronts the supernatural, and ultimately through him we have authority over it.

So it's not intended to be this fear-mongering that I think sometimes can happen.

Um, but in Christ we actually have authority, and that's something that that I was exposed to and trained in understanding.

Like, yes, these things are real, but you don't need to be afraid because you have Christ on the inside of you.

Yeah.

I and that's that's exactly what I wanted to get to next was personal experiences, you know, with whether it be an angel or a demon.

And uh I I guess since we're on the topic, let's start with the the fear that a lot of Christians even have, and what you said could be consoling, but it could be like, yeah, right, I still don't want to I still don't want to come face to face or encounter one of these beings, you know, because that just that doesn't sound delightful in any sense of the word.

So Vinny, I'll I'll start with you, I guess.

Is it what is your experience with the enemy?

Uh as much as you're willing to share, and what encouragement can can you give people if they are ever confronted or if they're looking for trouble?

Yeah.

Man.

Well, I come from a third world country where uh spiritual warfare is we preach it about it, we talked about it, and uh we we experience it.

And uh and to be honest, we jump in when we have an opportunity.

Um, I think I love what Pastor Keith said, and I agree with that a hundred percent.

I think the tr the church is lacking an understanding of what authority is, and and there is there is a difference between I don't want I don't want to have an experience with a demon.

That's one thing.

The other thing is I am afraid of engage in a supernatural, that's completely different.

We have lots and lots of scripture verses sorry, lots lots of verses in scripture that tells us that in Jesus we have authority over.

Um so when I am engaging in in spiritual warfare, it's never um with fear or afraid of anything.

I am aware and I I fight it with my spiritual uh spiritual weapons, but also with with um authority.

I have lots of uh testimonies to share with you.

And usually when I share those things, I like to bring my wife with me so she can tell everybody, yeah, he's not lying.

Um because it I think it's hard for people to believe.

Um I only saw I only saw Angel once in my entire life.

Um he was gigantic, it was just for one second, and he was uh pretty much protecting a leader I had years and years ago.

I walk into his house, he came to say hi to me at the door, and then I just saw this being walking behind him, kind of to protect him just for one second.

And and I was like, oh my gosh, what just happened?

Very excited with with that experience.

But as far as experiences with demons, bro, we need 14 episodes for me for me to share a couple of of them.

But I think one that it was extremely remarkable to me was this possessed guy who showed up at church, uh, and we were just praying for him in a in a quiet environment.

We're not we're not making um anything public, and we're just praying for him.

And and as we were doing that, it it was a nasty uh situation.

He was throwing up a lot and changing voices and and crazy uh strength.

And then at some point, a friend of mine had discernment.

Again, I'm talking about supernatural stuff, so bear with me.

Had discernment to take.

his shirt off and and we did and he had a crazy tattoo on his back and our friend just said pray over pray over that I think we should do that and as we are praying the tattoo was moving um and and uh the guy and the tattoo had two um knives and the knives was just stabbing the guy as we were praying for him to a point that he was bleeding serious um again you don't need to believe me but ask my wife um and of course we pray and uh and he got delivered and he surrendered his life to Jesus and then later we ask him bro what's up with the tattoo and he got that that tattoo when he was in jail he was part of a ritual got it um so it was everything was connected yeah so I was not afraid of fighting that battle I was overwhelmed for sure like oh my gosh the supernatural is happening right here in front of my eyes but I know how to fight against it I have authority in Jesus' name yeah that's beautiful does that make sense it does powerful do you believe then Nate look at the camera and tell everybody if you believe in what I just said well because you're my really good friend I believe everything yeah of course man absolutely um I love it yeah I I think I think even on the topic of belief does that have anything to do with the fact that maybe we don't have or it seems as though those encounters aren't as prevalent perhaps in our culture or in our region does it does it have to do with belief um I I think there is certainly a measure of belief and expectation that are woven in together.

So so what I mean by that similar to what Vinny shared um I came up in a Holiness Pentecostal church our church name was literally House of Prayer Church of Deliverance so we we had an atmosphere where you you draw what you are and so we would have people that came in all the time that were in need of deliverance and and so we've had our fair share of moments similar to what Vinny is describing.

So I think what I have seen comparatively and again Vinny you could probably speak to this even more with coming from Brazil but having traveled around I've learned that not only is it something that can be across like different country lines but even certain cultures um and the way in which they engage God.

So I I I would suspect that as I've traveled to Africa there's a there's a greater belief in the unseen realm there's a greater belief and expectation around these things so you certainly see it a lot more not to mention certainly there's the the the the rituals and the things that they do that certainly need to be confronted.

I think in the West we've become so cynical and and so logical and and and so we just can't see.

We don't have the eyes of discernment to see and sense it but but absolutely even if you go to a small tree church down the street that if they have deliverance in the name they probably could tell you some stories that are right a block away but I just think it's all a matter of of of what the expectation is in the filter by which you look at the world through so um but 1000% as as Vinnie was talking and sharing the story like I'm like yeah like and then what happened?

Like I'm I'm with you brother because I I seen it I believe it I've I've witnessed it I walked through it and so um I'll say this about the angel side because I thought about um about the angel side of things um similar to you man like I've I've only seen one once and it was with a leader.

It was with a um a very prominent influential leader and I was I was I watched as he walked on platform and as he walked on platform I saw two um I was like man he got two I think I only got one but he had he had two that was with him and I saw it for like a probably like two seconds and I was like oh my like you could just feel the presence of God it was it was hard to describe but I that was the only time but as far as demonic activity brother like we could probably do a whole series on that what if we did like a Stranger Things um episode and just why not nobody will listen to it you kidding me they would be dolled in sounds like it's an awareness.

Sure and and I've heard people say you know probably one of the greatest strategies of the devil is to convince that he's not actually real.

I believe that 100% so perhaps we've we've fallen into that trap uh in our in our context in our culture um so are there you you think there's things happening even maybe with in households that just seem like everyday struggles or things happening amongst relationships or things happening in businesses that just seem like it's struggles that come with the territory when it's actually demonic activity or supernatural activity.

I think I mean even if we look at the words of Paul where he's saying hey we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities spiritual wickedness in high places like on a first glance it may seem like he's just naming things but he's literally talking about like ranking of demonic opposition he's giving you a breakdown of like a principality and how they oversee certain regions of the world like I think we have to consider for a moment like why does it seem that certain cities certain countries have certain oppressive things going on?

The enemy operates through that but we also see the enemy operate through any system that can be established that is meant to dehumanize or strip away the dignity of mankind.

So we see it in that as well but even at the practical level in households I think that's the thing that causes us to miss the activity of the enemy is because the entry point is so practical.

Like yeah I'm sure that there are tons of stories of people who are like did you hear that noise upstairs?

Why is that picture moving?

Like certainly there may be versions of that but it's also in the very everyday things like man why can't my wife and I get on the same page why are my kids acting up I think it's also those entry points um that scripture refers to as footholds that the enemy gets access to as well so I think our awareness is critical because we simply just can logic our way through how we are and we're missing the the spiritual influence behind it.

Yeah I also think that people reduce um demon activity to possession only and that's not that's not the only way there's oppression there is influence in all of that you know um it is it is it very it it is very possible that I am in a crazy fight with my wife and this has been influenced by demons absolutely um then I need to of course discern that in the moment which is hard because your emotions are you know screaming inside of you and and address it and and you know um so it's possession is not the only thing I remember years and years ago I the same leader that I saw the angel uh around him I once said crazy things to him I was mad at him because the 18 years old Vini thought he did something stupid and I needed to tell him that he did something stupid so I said a lot of crazy things to him and um out of my whatever um it was not the Holy Spirit for sure and then I went for a walk and a friend of mine just just saw me and he was just walking with me and he said why are you mad?

And then I just told him hey man I just saw Jason and I just told him lots of crazy stuff he's what he's doing is ridiculous.

He cannot do that and so I told him such and such and as I was telling him I was proud of how well I I articulated my words in Portuguese to hurt him which is crazy.

So when I was done I was expecting my friend to tell me good job you did a good job and he looked at me and he said bro do you know what I think you should do I think you should pray about this because I don't think it was the Holy Spirit who led you to say that so it was either your emotions or something else influenced you to say things like that.

And I was like oh my gosh.

It's a good friend.

Yeah you're so right yeah um now I'm not saying that everything is a demon that everything is the devil sometimes you're just hungry sometimes you're just mad yes sometimes you're just leaving a bad day but I don't think we should ignore that we are in a war.

Yes Ephesians chapter six I think we need to read that a lot we we forget about that chapter very often we are in a war believe it or not we're fighting a war yep how do we distinguish like flat tire oh you know I'm being attacked today versus actual actual attacks you know actually being targeted yeah that's a great question I feel like it's um I I don't think that it's as boilerplate as we would like it to be like copy and paste.

I think depending on the circumstances and like kind of what Vinny is sharing in regards to like sometimes you're just not having a good day sometimes things happen and trying to categorically recognize that I think for me and and one of the things specifically in in marriage or just in life I try to identify patterns and so when I sense that there's there's something that is there's a there's a pattern here there seems to be like this intentional strategic thing that seems to keep happening.

I think one of the things that we often lose sight of is that is that the enemy of our soul he is not a mindless cloud of negativity.

He's very intentional strategic smart smart actively looking for opportunities to find entry points into your life to cause utter destruction.

So when I begin to get a sense that there's patterns of intentionality that are trying to pull at the thread of whatever it is that I feel like God has for us whether it's it's family, it's unity, that's when I'm able to kind of discern like okay this is not like a man I ran a light and I got pulled over by a cop.

That's not the devil.

I shouldn't have ran the light.

But what I do recognize is that when there are moments where there's genuine like heaviness a sense of like okay there's an intentionality around this this opposition we're facing that's when you can begin to kind of recognize it.

So again it's not like a if these three things happen then you know you got a demon like it's more so like what are you sensing and and and what are you discerning and and what is the opposition and do you feel like this is this seems very very like if I was an enemy playing chess that's something I would do.

That's when I begin to kind of hone in on a little bit more.

Yeah.

So before we move kind of move on and switch gears a little bit you mentioned even I know my weapons or I know I have authority um maybe equip people who don't know what's at their disposal for you.

Yes.

Well I think better than me let's allow Paul to do that.

So I would encourage everybody to read Ephesians chapter six I think that will give you everything you need and it's very clear what he's saying.

So when he wrote that he was in prison right he was in in not a regular prison he was um what's the term in English?

He was it was a house type arrest house arrest and he probably had a Roman soldier with him all the time because come on Paul can run away um so as he's writing the letter and he looks at the Roman soldier with all the equipment he's just man yeah that's exactly what we need we need a helmet we need a sword we need a shield you know so he he's taking that and he's teaching us that there's it there's spiritual weapons that we can use when we're fighting a war.

So Ephesians chapter six we'll break that down but he ends that list with prayers right and when we pray we need to understand that we have Jesus and we pray in the name of Jesus and in his name we have authority that's exactly what he says um or we he he said to his disciples hey you guys have authority in my name so that's what I do I when I'm fighting a war I'm not fighting in my name and with my weapons I'm fighting in Jesus' name with spiritual weapons.

Am I a winner every single time victorious every single time no not really to be honest with you sometimes I stumble here and there sometimes I forget sometimes my flesh wants to take me to a different place but I guarantee if you believe in the name of Jesus if you understand the authority you have and you use your your authority your spiritual weapons when you're facing a war you're gonna face it differently for sure.

And I I'd say to that Vinny um I I think what can help people to distinguish is that there's a difference between the war and battles.

We're in a war but if you look to the end of the book Revelation we win the war.

But the day-to-day battles the things that we face every day those are the areas where we have to continue to engage in our weapons it's the things that we have to continue to do.

I'll say this and I know we want to shift gears really quick.

I think one of the most vivid depictions of what's happening in like the spirit realm if whatever you want to call it um is probably in the book of Daniel and and Vinny you remember the story where um where Daniel is is fasting and praying and then the angel shows up and an angel shows up and appears and this is in scripture and says to him like hey um from the day that you started praying God heard your prayer and I was sent to come and relieve and bring answer to that prayer.

But the Prince of the powers of the air withheld me so long that Michael the archangel had to get involved to free me up so I can come here and deliver you with this information.

That's kind of the concept of where fasting and praying kind of got intertwined together because at that time that's when Daniel decided I'm going to stop eating and I'm gonna pray and seek God but it literally says that in the heavens that the angel was coming to deliver the answer and there was opposition.

So I think that was just a small glimpse that our finite minds can wrap our minds around like when I'm praying there's there's stuff happening.

This is this is not sensationalism.

This is literally pulled from the pages of scripture.

Yeah um speaking of sensational in our time and place in history there's a lot of buzz uh in the news and uh on social media feeds uh in regard to aliens and there's different interpretations of what they what those could be and this is obviously not a a new topic you know it's been around for for decades just the discussion of what if what is it um sightings all UFOs all all this all this stuff um but it seems to be more prevalent here uh today and so I think it's it's okay for for us to to sit and ponder and to to even conjecture uh what what this could be you know if it's anything at all and so um I guess Pastor Keila I'll kind of I'll kick it over to you and start with you.

What do you think?

I was like where something supernatural I was printing in the middle of the video right there on the spot.

No hindrance from the angel there.

What's all the hype?

What's the obsession with it?

I I think um it's similar to what we said earlier where I think just as human beings we are obsessed with otherworldly things.

Again we see that in cinema we see that in the things that we watch.

So I think that that naturally kind of plays into it I believe the modern like interest in it certainly is connected to like this idea of what if there is more out there before it was easy to kind of just dismiss as like a couple of these random instances like when you have a you know a farmer out in Montana who says he has an encounter it's like okay sure but as you're seeing more and more of these things that are coming to the surface it genuinely has people asking questions.

So I think it it's just in the days of social media the days of cameras even though with AI you never know what's real and what's not it's just more in front of us than ever before.

So naturally it becomes a part of discussion.

The reason why I have interest in it for me personally is because I've I've actually begun to ask the question like okay what if what are the implications of my beliefs if there is and I've been watching varying discourses on people who are like well if there is then that means that God's not real or and so that's when I'm like okay like well let's let's sit with this and genuinely ask the question do we feel like if there is the existence of otherworldly beings that that automatically pull at the thread of God as a creator and and what that means and so I think that's kind of part of the interest specifically from a Christian standpoint.

One of the accounts that I had saw that kind of made me want to even go down this pathway of discussion is where I I began to see people say that there was an account of someone who said that this otherworldly being showed up and began to talk about like humanity and how they create they're the original creators of humanity and they even created Jesus as a part of it.

That's when I'm like okay so now we're beginning to get into a space where scripture talks about if something shows up and it's preaching another gospel, if something shows up that is delineating away from who we are and what we believe in Christ, now I believe that as followers of Christ we it deserves a response from us.

So I I'll say plainly to this camera anything that shows up that tries to pull away from the fabric of who Christ is immediately begins to scream a red flag in my eyes of that's demonic activity.

So I'm not I I you know we can have discussions about all the dimensions and all these other things but the moment something begins to say hey we created Jesus actually and he's not a real thing but we did that for a systemic control that's something that I think a demon would do to distract and to cause us to lose faith and to lose heart.

So um the intrigue is there because I think people are grasping at straws trying to make sense of the world all of these things disclosure days all these things out there but at its core anything that pulls away from or has a message that's rooted in fear because even when we think about like I'm sorry I'm rambling but let me say this and then I'll pause um think about the varying times that um that spiritual beings that we probably define as angels have shown up and the immediate response is fear not don't be afraid yeah there's something about their appearance that is not like everything else and if we look at the words of Ezekiel and Isaiah and their descriptions of these otherworldly beings and take them literally and I've seen people do renderings of them they're terrifying for sure.

It's terrifying so if we take that for what it is and then we consider some of the things that we've heard people say about what they've witnessed trying to put earthly language about around a divine entity is something that we don't have the vocabulary for and it's going to produce fear and and and all these other things if then some being shows up and it doesn't greet you with fear not I have been sent by the Lord then for me that's demonic activity.

Vinny do you think there's biblical precedence for some sort of unidentified flying object I've heard thousands of people talking about this I think that maybe the the most like the strongest argument for um for something like that in the Bible would be probably one of the visions in Ezekiel um but again I think this is trying to yeah trying to bring logic to a vision um yeah I don't I don't struggle I'll let's start there I don't struggle with the fact that there is a possibility of having life in some other planet if this is true let's sit together let's read our Bibles together um because yeah we need to figure this out if there is life outside of earth that's not a problem to my faith let's let's put that way yeah um it would be a problem to my faith not not necessarily a problem to my faith but it would be weird to me if if there is sin there and Jesus never died there that's a problem um then we're gonna grab our theologians their theologians we'll see together we'll we'll see yes well do what we'll do but um so I don't have a problem with that now as far as if aliens are real or not I think we have again thousands of theories but three of them I think it's more accepted one being no they're not real it's demons and um I think um we need to um say that uh Michael Heiser was one of uh the guys Pretty much saying that he was a proponent of that.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

So he will he will he was saying, Hey, if you saw something that you think it's an alien, it's probably a probably a demon.

There's this other guy who who believes similar to Dr.

Heiser, his name is Tim Alberino, I guess.

Okay.

He believes that yes, demons, but not necessarily.

It could also be follow fallen uh angels.

Yeah, he just ties.

So he he pulls the Enoch card.

Exactly.

He separates them, yeah.

He separates it.

Yeah.

And of course, we have people that say, no, this is not demon.

This is it's aliens.

Yeah.

Um right now, and this could change in the future, but right now, uh, for me, it's just demons.

Uh when I say could change, is I'm I'm never with with uh Dr.

Tim Alberino because I consider demons and and fallen angels the same thing.

So it's either demons or beings living in a different planet.

But right now, I think it's more demons.

And I agree with with what Pastor Keith um said, um quoting Paul Galatians 1, what, 8, 8 or 9?

Galatians 1, 8 or 9.

You can check.

Um but I mean, if somebody show up saying, Hey, Jesus is not a thing, there's this new thing, yeah, discard that because that's not that's not from God.

Yeah.

Um that is antichrist rhetoric.

Absolutely, 1000%.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And who is God?

Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, they are just they're non-demon demonic other creatures that live on other planets or in other dimensions or however.

What does God owe us to say, like, yeah, I had to put that in the Bible, otherwise, you know what I mean?

Like, exactly.

There's a lot of things in the Bible that are true, or a lot of things that are not in the Bible that are true.

Absolutely.

So uh, and I think he's he's a creative guy, so I think he has the right to be able to create if he wanted to.

Absolutely.

But you know what?

But I have questions.

Yeah.

All of that is true.

But Lord, when we get there, come on.

After what, 3,000 years worshiping him, I would love to schedule a meeting.

Can we take a break to talk about can I can I get you for just one minute?

Now I need to talk with God about it.

One of the things that has helped me, and I try not to use it as like a get out of theological jail free card, but it's it's Colossians 1, verse 16, I believe it is.

Colossians 1:16

And and what it talks about is Colossians' emphasis is the preeminence of Christ.

So Paul's trying to emphasize that Christ is before all things.

But what he does say in that particular passage is he says that he's the creator of all things, visible and unvisible, invisible.

He begins to talk about the varying dimensions and saying how he's the creator of all things.

So I think for me, I find peace in knowing that if there is other things, God is still the creator.

Yeah.

And I may not understand why, I may not understand what their redemptive process is, I may not understand anything about that, but at the end of the day, God is the uncreated creator, and whatever does exist, God is the creator of it.

Yeah, yeah.

I am with you.

Amen.

That's why it doesn't mess up with my faith.

For sure.

If somebody shows up here one day, hey guys, I'm from Plant Zorg.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

Tell me more about it.

Yeah, let's talk about it.

Pastor Keith, final encouragement for people who may be, whether it's aliens, demons, angels, supernatural in general, or otherworldly or just beyond our everyday.

They're talking to their coworker about this, they're talking to their neighbor about this, they're trying to be a good neighbor, but they're not trying to be spook anybody off or uh be um just just be out there for no reason.

How would you posture somebody about having these sorts of conversations that ultimately lead to lead to Christ?

Yeah, I I think one of the things, and again, this is gonna probably go down a rabbit trail.

In the West, we've lost the ability for nuance.

Everything is black and white.

Um, some of my Jewish brothers and sisters, they call it arguments in darkness, where it we're talking about things that we will never actually know.

So I would try to encourage people that while these thought experiments are great to explore, to be curious, because curiosity, I think, produces growth at its core, let's get back to something that we can have a conversation about.

And here's what we know we know that we live in a fallen and broken world.

We do know that that there's injustice, there's suffering, and there's pain that's in this world.

We also know that that that God sent Christ to be the redemption of that, and we have access to hope and and healing and peace as a result of it.

So we can have discussions around these things, but let's let's also get back to what we do know, and that is that Christ is crucified, and in him we move, live, and have our being, and there's redemption and hope and all of that.

So for me, let's work towards hope instead of just spiraling into the nebulous void of darkness without us ever landing on anything.

So I'm not one who says, don't be curious, I'm not one who says don't explore.

I love asking questions.

Asking questions has probably been the greatest thing that's ever happened to my faith, where when people would say, like Jesus died for your sins, I was why?

And that question allowed me to go deeper into understanding the sacrificial system, sin and all these other things.

But at its core, you get to a place where you have to just begin to have faith.

And I think that's the thing that sometimes we've lost um perspective on is that without faith, it's impossible to please me.

At some point, you're going to have to come to the end of yourself and say, I've I've explored, I've answered as much as I can.

I need to walk by faith.

And that's the spot where I think that we all have to come to our end of ourselves and yield.

See, it wasn't that bad.

We did it.

We did it.

Yeah.

Vinny, thank you.

Next week, are we having an alien seated right here?

We can.

That would be what if we did a reveal?

That'd be awesome.

The newest staff members celebrate.

Yes.

We have something to show you at the end of episode, but stick with us for two hours.

Yes.

Vinny, Pastor Keith, thank you so much.

And we'll catch you guys next week for another episode of After the Message.

Thanks for listening to After the Message.

If you want to learn more about Celebration Church Orlando, visit our website, celebrationorl.org, or follow us on social media at celebrationorl.