S1 E5 | Conflict & Discomfort: Why We Avoid It (And Why We Shouldn’t) | After the Message

Welcome to the Celebration Church Orlando podcast.

This is a segment we like to call After the Message, where the conversation about life, God, and the Bible continue beyond Sunday.

We hope today's episode will encourage, enlighten, and inspire you.

Keeping the good times rolling here on After the Message.

Great intro.

A relaunch at Celebration Church Orlando.

So thankful that you are watching and or listening.

And uh thankful to have both senior pastors in the house today.

Let's go.

Joined by Pastor Megan Pittman as well.

Pastor Megan, how are you?

I'm good.

Good.

A little nervous, but good.

I'm going to be talking about him.

So it's like.

Oh yeah.

You know.

Okay.

Awkward.

If you wanted an insight into your pastor's life.

Get ready.

You know, coming off the heels of last week's episode, I'm getting the sense that that might have been one of your favorites, Pastor Keith.

Is that is that accurate?

I would say yes.

I mean, I'm I try to treat this like children.

I don't have a favorite.

Of course.

But there's certain ones you have a deeper connection with.

So yeah, last week's episode um was really powerful, but we're we're building on something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think today, you know, you have your favorite sitting next to you.

Right next to me, so it doesn't get any better than this.

I'm tapped out.

This might this is like my retirement.

This now Kobe did his last year.

This is his retirement tour.

This is it.

I didn't know about that.

Hey, so uh hard transition.

We're talking about conflict today.

Yes, we are subject.

There's no shortage of that in our world, right?

And so I think that it is fitting that we that we discuss it um in the church as well.

And uh as many of you may know, or we are in a series um in Acts, and uh Pastor Vinny spoke uh a message recently within our series just dealing with discomfort, and sure um that kind of triggered the the idea like well what if what if we talk about the discomfort of of conflict here?

And um so yeah, I just wanted to speak on that a little bit and hopefully the three of us can come to a resolution towards the end here on how we how we deal with it.

But yeah, Pastor Mingan, I kind of want to start with you because the Bible or uh we as a society or we as people, we can awfully look negatively at conflict, right?

Yeah, it has a a negative connotation, but can there be good conflict?

Can conflict be a positive, I guess would be my my question.

Absolutely.

Um conflict, uh you either have healthy conflict or you have unhealthy conflict.

The healthy version will produce fruit such as you know, growth, maturity, and all those things.

I think that um even biblically, when we look at the scriptures and stuff, there was no absence of conflict.

You know, conflict was there, but it's how do you handle it?

And you could see repercussions from that from, you know, even uh Cain and Abel, you know, like when you don't handle conflict well or, you know, an unresolved issue that you have inside, then maybe you express it differently and the outcome is in the negative.

But if you handle it in a proper way, there is understanding, there's clarity, there is um growth, it strengthens your relationships.

And so I do feel like conflict can be healthy.

It's all in the way that you do it.

And so it it's about Keith and I, um, when we counsel uh clients or people from the church, a lot of times we talk about time, tone, and topic, and it's all in the way that you say it.

What is your tone?

Are you yelling?

Are you saying things in a sarcastic way?

Is this the right time?

So if I came from work and I had a hard day and now I start some beef with my husband when he comes home, that wasn't the right time to do that.

That is an unhealthy conflict that can result in an argument, a fight, and you know, ultimately you guys separating or not talking for a couple of hours or days.

Right.

Yeah.

Where does conflict it seems more natural to us than it should be, right?

Like conflict seems to stem from something within us.

Um what is that?

You know, I heard someone say recently that they can be delightful to people all day long, but it's like the people that they're closest with as soon as they get home.

Yes, you know, it it it seems antithetical to who they were the the rest of the day.

So what what is that, man?

Man, I there's there's so many layers to that.

I I think at its core is that we we all are on our own unique journey.

We all have our own experiences, our own perspectives.

And and so the way that I'm wired, the way that you're wired, the way that we interact with people, we we kind of have a social contract on what's acceptable behavior and the way that we function and try to advance whatever is the initiative, whether it's the friendship, it's the organization, we have like a mutual understanding.

And so I think the the the issue is that when there is conflict, we don't look at it as an opportunity to grow, to sharpen.

It just becomes like this this thing that either we avoid or we just burn everything down because we just can't find any resolve of it.

But I think at its core, conflict is often birthed through differences.

And it's now a matter of how do we respond to each other's differences in a healthy way that there actually can be growth and and mutual understanding versus this is a difference that then means that now we're opponents.

And I think that's the unhealthy side.

So I think that's what we often find even in relationships is that your differences doesn't mean that you have to be enemies, and that's what I think gets lost in society.

Yeah.

I think also like you're a team, and so when you're on a team, that means you have to work together to solve something.

Like I'm thinking about basketball.

Like if it's just my way of doing things, we're never gonna get anything done.

But as a team, we'll win.

And so oftentimes we'll come back to are we being a team right now, or you know, are we doing things on our own and being individuals?

You see the sports reference, Nate?

I do.

She was watching the the Western finals with me last week.

But I think it's just fresh in the a week from now, she won't even know what best ball is.

But no, you're right.

We all play different roles, right?

And so the the point guard can't look at the power forward and go like, hey, I wish I was a power forward.

No, you you work better as a point guard, but yeah, it's just different perspectives in order to reach a common goal.

So but at the end of the day, conflict is uncomfortable, yeah.

But it's also um it it's also um inevitable.

Yes.

So we're gonna face it.

Yes.

So, Pastor Man, I don't know the amount of conflict you may have experienced in your life, but have you gotten to a point where you're comfortable with it?

Is it still difficult for you?

Like what's your experience?

I'm glad you started with me now, because it's my turn.

Um I which is so funny, is because we had our in-laws in town last week, and um my mother-in-law loves my crab cakes, and so does my father-in-law.

And we we had a disagreement, is what I'll say.

Um, and it was all in different, you know, interpretation of things.

So when we were out, Keith said, You're gonna make your crab cakes and I'm gonna make my salmon.

And I was like, Okay, but typically with my crab cakes, I'll make like fettuccine, I'll do a salad, and I'll have like breadsticks, garlic breadsticks.

And I was like, Oh, are you wanting any sides to it?

We're not doing any sides, right?

And he was like, What do you mean we're not doing any sides?

And so this became became a back and forth about, I shouldn't have to say that.

You always make it with that.

And I'm like, but you said crab cakes and salmon.

And so I think conflict is all about um our interpretation of things and all ultimately how we understand something.

So we went back and forth for a little bit, and then we can't, I said, can we come to a uh compromise and just saying, like, if we talk about a meal, we'll talk about the complete thing.

Hey, are we gonna have sides with this?

Are we gonna do this?

So it can prevent him saying, Well, you you never uh make crab cakes without sides.

And I'm saying, but you only said that you were making salmon and that I was making crab cakes.

And so we solved it.

From this day forward.

This is this is compromise.

Because for me, I still hold on to the ever-changing found like I believe I was correct.

Um, but for the sake of my marriage and to move on from that situation, we had to come to a compromise.

Yes, going forward, I will make sure that I narrate every ingredient that will go forth in all of our meals.

Yeah.

Sounds like you guys have healed from this.

Yeah.

So it seems better.

I'm I'm okay.

If you if we have the wide shot, and I hope we can take that now.

Here's something that Megan and I like I promise I will get off of this.

But whenever we meet with a couple, you can always tell about the health of a couple based on how they sit on a couch.

And so um, right now, if I was looking at this, I'm like, okay, what's in between you guys for this therapy talk?

But okay, we're we're good though.

We're good, right?

We're good.

We're good.

It's just the microphone that's over here.

Very good.

I love it.

This is real life right here on After the Message.

Yes.

Um, what does the Bible have to say about how we should handle conflict?

Yes.

You know, the the thing that I love about scriptures is that, you know, they they try to ensure that we're not caught off guard.

Um, we have some examples of how not to handle conflict, and then we have uh a litany of examples on how to resolve it.

So, of course, we can come to the words of Jesus where he's talking, he's like, hey, if you have an ought with your brother, here's what you need to do.

And and resolving it was so important that that the words of Christ said, if you have an offering, a gift, leave it at the altar and go be resolved to your brother.

Like, so this idea of finding um unity, not uniformity, but unity was so important that Jesus was like, I'd rather you stop doing that and work this out with your brother.

But he says, go and try to work it out one-on-one.

If you can't work it out, then bring in an elder who can then hopefully kind of bring some perspective, a neutral party to work through it.

So I think at its core, whenever we find ourselves in a space of conflict, genuinely going and trying to work it out.

But I think it's not just speaking to be heard, but being curious, speaking to and listening and trying to genuinely understand where someone else is coming from, find that common ground, and then figure out what does moving forward look like?

And sometimes moving forward can look like we just have to agree to disagree, or we may go our separate ways as it relates to this.

I think, you know, you look at um this the story of Paul and Silas, like there was a moment where it's like, hey, like we we came to the or Barnabas, like we come to this point where it's like we're we're not on the same page with this, and this may require us to give each other a little bit of space.

Um, but I think there's just ways of let's handle this one-on-one, let's not gossip about it, let's not make it toxic, let's not tell everybody about it and and disguise it as a prayer request because you know sometimes we can do that, but let's genuinely have a conversation, then from there, if we can't get resolved, bring in someone else who's a neutral party that can hopefully bring some measure of resolution, but don't handle it on your own because I think that's where it can turn into we we have our own narratives and then we bring that into the conversation and we assume the worst in people, and that that never produces fruit.

Yeah.

I think it's also interesting because um there's so many different communication styles, right?

You have assertive communication, which considers uh both perspectives, right?

Your needs, your wants, and your feelings, but you can also respect um the needs of others.

But then you have aggressive communication, which deals with um it's all about my needs, my feelings, and my wants, and I'm gonna dismiss yours.

And then you have passive, which is you're going to um you're going to neglect your needs for the the sake of others, and that leaves you to be trampled on or taken advantage of, but you don't communicate that, so you end up suffering in turmoil, inner turmoil is what you experience on the inside.

And so I think when you can get to a place of um assertive communication, you tend to hear the other person's side instead of your just your own, but you're still able to communicate that as well.

Yeah.

The example that you gave um with going to try and resolve something with someone, that not working out, grabbing someone else to go and try and resolve it.

And you guys don't if you you have an example of this, you don't have to get into details about it to but to divulge too much.

But have you seen that work out before?

Like have you seen have in your own life specifically an example of that happening?

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's there's there's there's levels to it.

So I I certainly would say that I think of our our children and and how we've tried to raise them on how to navigate and and manage conflict.

And of course, as a parent, sometimes you want to jump in and try to fix it for them.

So I think that there's there's a version of that, but as they grow into maturity, um, when something is brought, you're trying to coach them through, like, hey, this is a great way for you to have this conversation.

Um, don't frame it that way because that has an accusation attached to it.

So we certainly see versions of it with that, and then there can become a space of, well, then yes, we'll get involved.

So very practically in our household for sure, I would even say um, depending on who that third neutral party is, um, that can range from uh a mentor to even a counselor.

And sometimes we've seen it work in that space.

So I think for us personally, um voices of wisdom and people that you trust that can speak into situations.

And so in our case, like as a husband and wife who are pastors who are also therapists, and a multitude of counselors are safety.

So we have other couples, friends that are very well respected.

Um, but I think we haven't had anything that's personal that we just haven't been able to work through.

But in our own lives, we've certainly had other people speak into things that have helped to redirect us into um believe the best and figure out how to move forward.

I'll say too, like um at the beginning of our relationship, me and my mom were really really close.

And I anytime we got into like a conflict, I would um tell her about it.

And and Keith had a conversation with me.

He said, um, if you tell your mom about our conflicts and it's just from your perspective, when you move on, your mom's not going to be able to move on.

And I that always stuck in my head because I think about people now who have shared their uh what's going on in their marriage and stuff like that, and the way that they speak about their spouses, but when they have resolved their issue and they're back with that person, the support system does not support it.

And so I think that you can still share about what your conflict is going on in your relationship, but how do you talk about your spouse?

Is it you're coming to the conversation and saying, hey, we're having a we're having problems with communication.

We're trying to figure out how to work that out.

Oh man, you know, we're trying to figure out this parenting with our kids and we're just not on the same page.

We need to get on the same.

That's neutral versus he does this, he doesn't do that, she doesn't do this.

And we found that that has worked out for us and has helped save us in a lot of things where our support system can still support us.

When we're talking about and going back to the part about who do we go to, you have to go to people who have a neutral mindset.

Yes, they are for you and they are for your spouse.

So they're not going to take sides, they're just gonna say, Well, how do you guys resolve this?

I think that these are some ways that you guys can figure this out or have the conversations instead of a neutral party that is for you and only for you.

Yeah, I think that's not the person that you go to.

Yeah, a thousand percent.

Trying to be as objective as possible, right?

In a very seemingly subjective battle.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's not easy, man.

Well, that too, and also just sharing what I what I started to think about was sharing the resolve with the person that you shared the grievance.

You know, like going back to your mom and saying, Okay, here thanks so much for your help.

Here's where we ended up, as opposed to just leaving it open and then and then now this person has a grudge against the other party because they never actually heard about how it got resolved.

Yeah, 1000%.

I think that's that's a that's a key point in in making sure that we close the loop.

Um, because certainly it there's opportunities for you to pick up someone else's offense.

So there's a big difference between carrying one another's burdens and picking up someone else's offense.

Burdens are we're in this together.

I'm praying for you.

We're in this.

I want to see relief.

I want to see healing.

But when I pick up your offense, that means that even when you're no longer offended, I got it.

I'll be offended for you.

And now you now become the biggest obstacle to our progress because I'm trying to move forward and you're trying to convince me that I shouldn't.

So, yes, I think closing loop on that is critically important for for healing.

But I also think that and maybe I'm jumping ahead a little bit, I also think that the way that we have seen conflict resolved in our upbringing largely influences how we understand conflict in the present day.

Like if we grew up in homes where conflict wasn't a normal thing or it was unhealthy, our our default response to that will either be to mimic what we saw, which could be good or bad, or to avoid conflict altogether, which can be completely terrible because it kind of gets into what you were sharing earlier about just kind of like having this passive approach to it.

So I certainly believe when it comes to conflict, the connotation that goes with it, one of the stronger influences that we have is what did we witness coming up.

And if you grew up in a home where there was no conflict or or was one way, that marks us in one way or another.

Yeah.

I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who experience the feedback loop, right?

Where you feel like I say this, the the other party says this, and then we just keep going around the same mountain over and over again.

In your experience, how do you get unstuck from something like that?

And and maybe it ebbs and flows with the seasons of life, but I think that's a real thing for a lot of people because yes, we do change and evolve as people, and but for the most part, we are who we are.

Yeah, and we say what we say, how we say it, because that's just who we are.

Um so yeah, any any advice from either of you on how can we break the cycle of repeat having the same conversation without getting any resolve?

Um I'll I'll go first and then um I'm curious to see what you say.

For me, it comes back to vision.

So so scripture says without a vision, people cast off restraints or they perish.

So I'm a firm believer that if we don't have something beyond ourselves that's that's that we're keeping our eyes fixed upon, we can just find ourselves going around the same cul-de-sac over and over again.

But if we know we are simply trying to make it to this destination, we have a vision for our family, a vision for our marriage, and maybe we don't agree on the route to get there, as long as we're in agreement that we're trying to move in this direction, then we can begin to have a discussion that moves from the conflict itself to what does resolve look like?

Because we have a shared vision.

But I think when we don't have a shared vision or agreement, that's when you find yourself in these feedback loops that seem like they never end.

One of the things the passages I love to quote is Amos 3-3.

And it says, How can two walk together if they're first not agreed or agreement?

Uh different translations say it different ways, but ultimately it typically renders is that the agreement is past tense.

So how can we make it to a destination if we haven't agreed on what that destination is?

So when I look at conflict, whether it's personal or anything beyond that, church, whatever, it's like, can we find agreement on something?

Can we find something that we all are in agreement on?

And now we can discuss the best way to get there.

But if we can't even agree on what we're trying to do or what we're trying to accomplish, that you're kind of stuck in this nebulous cycle.

And I think that's the first thing to address is what can we agree on?

Let's find that and let's work towards it.

I think also um one of the things I have learned is like as I'm getting older, like how can I be a better version of myself?

And if I'm a better version of myself, then I'm gonna be a better version to the people that are around me.

So, case in point, like if I struggle with, I think because I'm Caribbean, like we can be loud, we can turn up, like we can clap back really fast.

Is that really a thing?

We can clap back really fast.

And as time went along, I saw how unhealthy that was.

And I had this pivotal moment, um, even with my kids when they're like, I can't hear you when you're yelling, I can't hear you when you're upset.

And and I was like, but I want respect.

And I was like, if I want respect, I have to do my part, like I'm responsible for me.

And so when I started learning that I'm responsible for me and I started getting better outcomes, that's what allows you to change and get you out of those cycles.

Like, will you come back to those things?

Is that still there?

If that's been a part of your DNA makeup and you've learned those kind of behaviors, yes.

But I'm still responsible for myself.

If I mess up, then that's my part on um apologizing.

That's my part on.

Um, forgiving as well, because a lot of times you feel validated in your own feelings.

And it's it's just helped me out a lot when I can say, Man, I'm going after God's heart.

How do I change who I am so I can be a better version?

Because I can't do this in my own strength.

I can't be humble in a fight or a conflict if I'm not drawn closer to God.

And I think that has helped me out and changed me so much from where I used to be.

When we first started out, we didn't have marital counseling.

So we learned everything the wrong way.

We did all the things wrong.

You know, we fought unfair.

You know, and so now, like even the simple thing as that could have turned ugly and we were able to resolve it in a few minutes and laugh about it.

We should do a book called What Not to Do.

And each chapter could talk about the things that we did and how it's literally a miracle that we survived.

Talk about supernatural.

It literally is a miracle.

Let's talk about it right now, man.

Seriously.

Like let's help some folks out.

Like what are some of those examples?

Like, how can you help people maybe fast track a little bit more or avoid some of the pitfalls maybe you guys had?

And again, you know, we don't have to get into like dirty laundry, but what are some of the principles that one day you how long have you guys been together?

Um 31.

We're about to send, yeah, well, 31 years in October, but our anniversary is June 3rd.

Okay.

And that will be 26 years.

26 years of marriage, too.

So 26 years of marriage.

So uh I would say that you have a little bit of ground to stand on and be able to talk about this.

So I I guess for each of you, you know, what have you learned?

Um I I I come back to, you know, speaking of like parental influence, um my mom gave me the insight that you have to pick and choose your battles.

Um, I I feel like what often happens, depending on your culture, depending on your upbringing, depending on how you may have had to fight to have a voice, whether it be in your family, amongst your friend group, that sometimes we bring that energy into our marriage.

And sometimes, again, you can have the passive approach where you shrink back and then you just let it build up until you can't take it anymore.

And then by the time you're willing to address the issues, you're so far dissociated from it that it almost seems irreparable, which isn't true, but it takes a lot of work.

Or you can just be super reactive and everything is a thing.

Man, you you put the soda cans in the wrong way.

I'm upset.

And there's typically some kind of backstory attached to it.

So I think for me is, and and this is something that we've worked through through the years, it's like, I'm like, just can we give each other the benefit of the doubt?

Can we just come to a space where we recognize that I am not going to do anything to intentionally try to harm you?

And can you do the same for me?

And and I I can only speak for myself.

That that matrix alone changes the way that you respond to things when we both understand that maybe we're having a misunderstanding, but I'm not trying to hurt you.

Because I think sometimes our defense mechanism kicks in when we think that someone is intentionally being disrespectful, someone's intentionally trying to harm you.

Now our fight or flight kicks in, and I don't run as well as I used to.

So let's fight.

But when we can give each other that benefit of the doubt, it changes the landscape of the discussion and at least shifts the atmosphere, in my opinion.

So for me, that's a big one for me.

Is like, let's just give benefit of doubt.

Like for us, we've been together for 31 years.

Like, you, you know everything about me.

I'm not trying to hurt you.

So just let's lead with that.

And I know the same thing about her.

So I think that would probably be the first principle for me is like, can we come to a space of benefit of the doubt and believe in the best for one another?

I'll say too, you have to know what your limits are in a conflict.

So uh for me, before I used to fight fire with fire, right?

Because I'm not gonna back down.

Um, that was my mindset.

I had to learn that in those moments when I don't do that and I feel like I'm being pushed and I continue to engage, it I I either lash out or um I say things that I don't mean.

And so I never wanted to do that again because I saw the repercussions of that over the years where that's repeated, you know, that person can't forget that.

Um not that person, my husband couldn't forget that.

And um, and so I learned that if I get to a space where I feel like I'm not in control of my emotions, then I'm gonna say, Hey, can we talk about this later?

I can't talk about this right now.

And that has worked for us.

We'll come back and talk about it and we're able to move forward because now I have a level head.

But if I'm in that moment and I'm being pushed and I feel like I'm gonna do that, my defense mechanism comes in and I'm hurting the person that I love.

Yeah.

I think that kind of speaks to like such profound self-awareness.

You know, one of the things that I I say to my kids, and even sometimes with Megan and I, I'm like, okay, like I you were saying earlier about how it can seem as if certain people in our lives get the best version of ourselves, and by the time we get home, they get kind of like the remnants, the scratch, or or like the the the exhausted version of us.

And I get that we're human beings, we're finite, we get home, we finally can take a deep breath.

And so, yes, the those who are closest to us can sometimes have to deal with the ripples of that.

But one of the things I always come back to is that, you know, self-control is a fruit of the spirit.

Yeah.

Like it's it's a part of the package, and we have to choose to do it.

And so for me, while I understand the exhaustion, I understand the things that we all carry, but I often say this, and this is like so tongue-in-cheek, but I'm like, but if you got pulled over by a cop, you wouldn't be acting like this.

You would choose to have self-control or you would go to jail.

I don't want anything less than what you would give to someone else.

And so we try to live by that, by that standard of don't treat someone else better than you would treat me.

Not to make it a competition, but but we genuinely want to make sure, like, if I can give self-control with you, Pastor Nate, I can give self-control when I'm at work, then why would I not choose?

Yes.

Sorry.

Yes, for Bishop Nate.

If I can do self-control with all these other people that are important to me, yeah, then I also need to exhibit that with those who are also in my household as well.

Yeah, and you talked about the the longevity of this and like playing the long game.

Unfortunately, people don't even let it get to that point.

Yeah, yeah.

What have you guys learned about perseverance?

You know, what have you what have you guys learned about the ability to to push through and to not throw in the towel when that could seemingly be the easy road, right?

Yeah, I know you guys talk a lot about, hey, there's it's amazing what you can accomplish if you don't quit, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm sure, yes, you're Christian people, you're even pastors, but you're human just like just like all of us, too.

So can you guys speak a little bit to to the longevity and the and the perseverance of what it takes to actually have and pursue a Christ-like relationship?

And this can be superimposed on sure business or friendships, it's not just about marriage, right?

Yeah.

I think that um Keith and I were friends first.

Yeah.

And um we have our kids, and we didn't have the initial set up with our biological parents where they were together.

We got saved um on the same day, and God had spoken to Keith about this is gonna be your wife's door, that and there were so many different confirmations over time about what God wanted to do with us together.

So for me, our anchor was on Jesus.

Like, we didn't want to disappoint him, we didn't want to go into a divorce, we wanted to have our marriage be an example to others, especially coming from an African-American community.

We're like, hey, like we don't see this healthily modeled anywhere.

Like, and so we wanted to press past the stigmatisms that we saw.

I mean, because we've been together for so long back then.

Yeah, sure.

Um, and so with conflicts, I have learned that I have resolved not only with Keith and friends and family, when I can push through that and have healthy conversations, it comes with um restored relationships.

It comes with reconciliation, there's unity, there's agreement.

And when you learn how to do that, the more you learn how to do it, the more you do it.

Yeah.

Um, because you know the fruit that's coming from that.

And I think that um I just didn't want to give up on that, especially when it came to friends or my family or anything.

There was something, a drive that was bigger than I that said, don't give up on people.

And I think it was the word of God that really anchored me in once I got saved, I was like, I really want to live my life for Christ.

How do I do that?

Yeah.

Yeah, I I would say, I mean, you you shared the story that I was gonna share with like that that moment at the altar where like God's like steward this relationship.

So that that was our saving grace.

I think you know, the the other side of it is like just try to be at a space where neither one of you want to quit at the same time.

Yeah.

Because that's basically what ends up happening.

Like there's there's moments, and this is just being real, there are moments where one person is like, I don't know if I could do this anymore, but the other one is kind of like still in it.

Like, okay, then it's the opposite.

I don't know if I could do this anymore, but the other one's still in it.

It becomes very critical when both are like, I don't know if we can do this anymore.

Now, again, we've seen crazy resurrecting redemptive stories even in those moments.

But for us, I think it's just been neither one of us who like wanted to quit at the same time.

It's not really in my like my temperament to quit.

So for me, I'm always trying to figure out what is the root issue that we're trying to escape.

Um, because a lot of conflict, it's connected to something.

There's a root thing.

What's what are we there?

And so when we get to a space where we feel like separation is relief, it's like, okay, like let's deal with that because no matter where you go, there you are.

And you could be bringing that same thing with you into the next relationship and into the next relationship because you're trying to escape something.

There's something that's uncomfortable there.

So you might as well deal with it.

And then just a very practical black and white version of me.

Um, and I say this with people in church, I say this to people in our in our counseling.

I'm like, okay, so listen, you're thinking about dissolving this relationship.

Let me tell you the path that's ahead of you.

It's gonna cost you a lot of money, it's gonna cost you a lot of energy, it's gonna cost you a lot of effort, and then you're gonna have to rebuild your life as an individual, and then you're gonna have to begin to date someone else, and then you're gonna have to figure out what that relationship looks like, and then you'll have to build a future.

And some people have done that.

God bless them.

What I'm saying is all the energy and effort that it takes to separate, imagine what would happen if you invested that into the relationship.

Let's just give it a shot for a year.

Take what the concept of that is and let's pour it into this.

And if you genuinely give that a good shot, you'll probably find that there's redemption available.

Yeah, that's great perspective because quick fixes can often seem like the right answer.

Or the, you know, quick fixes can often seem like the most desirable answer, I guess.

So um you you guys talked about your kids, you you reference your kids a lot here today.

Talk about teaching your kids.

You know, for our parents out there.

Actually, this is just for me, so because it's way easier as the parent, as the authority figure, to to uh whether it's uh between siblings or friends or you know, between you and your child to just want to say, don't do that, right?

And just hey, just stop.

Let's just nip this.

But that doesn't seem uh A sustainable or and B constructive for their long-term development.

Yeah.

How do you how do you teach kids, specifically in the age of three?

Uh how do you teach your children to to fight well, as you as you put earlier, or to be able to have constructive conversations when there are disagreements.

Um I don't think we did this initially well.

Okay.

Because you're you're raised with you just you just repeat what you know.

Sure.

Yeah.

Do what I say.

Yeah, do what I say, and you repeat what you know.

And so as you get older, you begin to kind of recognize things.

And I don't know what it was.

It wasn't like it wasn't like our counseling journey we went on, but I think there was a moment when um and this is gonna sound so ridiculous, so so people don't judge me, but there was a moment when I realized, like, wait a minute, your your kids are sentient human beings who have their own thoughts and opinions and feelings and perspective that's different from yours.

And I don't, I can't remember.

I think Keith Jr.

may have been like 12 or something, because I've I was like, why won't he just do it this way?

Yeah.

And it hit me where it's like, because he's not you.

And that revelation, I know it sounds so surface level, but considering my context, my age, like that was a revolutionary moment where I genuinely learned, like, yeah, your kids are other than you, like they're they're different.

Yeah.

So so how do you how do you raise them and recognizing the way that they're wired and celebrate that and and train them up in those ways?

And so one of the things that they have in like the counseling space, they have this thing called a feelings wheel.

And the feelings wheel kind of has like your main big feelings, and then connected to that are subsequent things that are connected to those feelings.

But it gives people the vocabulary to express what they're feeling.

So I think ultimately, in a nutshell, is the best thing you can do with your children as you're training them on how to handle conflict is to increase the vocabulary to discuss what they really are feeling.

You're angry right now, but what are you angry about?

Oh, you're feeling angry because you feel overlooked.

Why does it overlook?

And like it helps you to drill down for them to learn how to express themselves.

It helps them to learn how to self-regulate, but it also allows them to be able to communicate what they're feeling in moments of conflict.

So that way it's not like, I just feel mad.

Like, how do I, what do I do with that?

But I feel mad because I feel overlooked, and this is why I feel overlooked.

Now we have something we can work with.

Instead of just trying to react to each other's feelings and dismiss someone's feelings, teaching them the vocabulary of what they're feeling and thinking has probably been the biggest game changer, not only for my kids who are now adults, but even for myself.

Like, man, I've even actively, like if I feel away, I'm at home, I'm like, why am I feeling this way?

Yeah.

What is that?

What is that connected to?

Is this a me thing?

Yeah.

Or is it an us thing?

Is it a her thing?

More often than not, it's a her thing, but it's okay.

Cut it out, Sam.

Cut it out.

Here's how I'm gonna handle this conflict.

No.

Um I I feel like it's modeling, right?

Um, I do feel like with children, it's learning, it is the teaching them how to communicate their vocabulary.

Like, are you sad um putting those words into their vocabulary?

But also, I feel like when we regulate our emotions around our children and we show them in the natural what we're doing to resolve it, I think that's a better example.

So our kids have seen us from the worse to where we are now, night and day.

Um, I think that there is a um, there's a part of ourselves as parents where we don't want our kids to do things because we know the outcome of what's going to happen, right?

Don't touch that hot stove, don't touch this, don't do that, or you're gonna fall.

And how do we bring them on the journey?

I I always say stay curious, like with your kids.

Um, why do you want to touch that?

Do you know that that can hurt you?

You know, and daddy doesn't want that to hurt you.

It's like reframing how like how you say it instead of, hey, don't touch that.

Or I told you that three times already, because that is the part of kids don't respond that well to it.

But it's like, hey, tell me why you you continue to do that.

Tell me why you're so fascinated with that.

Maybe you're gonna be an electrician one day.

Like, we're gonna do some other stuff.

We're gonna get you some toys that will help you like play with different things and you know, just stare it in a different way.

But it it's definitely was something that we had to learn over time by trial and error.

I say for parents, don't do that.

Get some books, look at some things on some videos that can help reinforce some things and have conversations around it, but we had to model it.

Yeah, um, I think they they didn't get the concept and they were mimicking what we were doing, and we had to change ourselves first.

Modeling, I think, is so that's so important because I think that's one of the things that's often um overlooked because we're in a life hack world and we're in the what's the quickest way for me to get the the quickest results.

I'm all about efficiency.

But man, Megan, you just reminded me like our greatest influence is what our kids are actually able to see.

And I know we live in a world where there's so many things and so many inputs and so many distractions, and we want to protect.

But listen to me, fathers, mothers, guardians, you are still the most influential person in your child's life.

So modeling for them is so crucial.

Thank you for that reminder because it it it really does.

The best thing you can do for your wife is let your kids see them, see you loving their mother well.

Yeah.

Let them see how you resolve conflict.

Because I think there's also that side of things where some people are raised in environments where they never seen their parents argue.

Right.

Yeah.

Um, like my my biological father left people know that, but my stepfather is the one who who raised me.

And um, I've never really seen my parents argue.

Like, I don't think that's really like my dad's temperament, but I just never saw it.

And I'm I'm grateful for it, but I never saw model to me.

How do we resolve?

How do we figure this out?

How do we pass through it?

So I think those moments where you can recognize that just because we're having a disagreement doesn't like we'll talk about this later.

Sometimes it's okay to say, Hey, I see that differently.

And letting them see that, man, that plays a major part in how they understand, like, wow, you can, they came to different conclusions and they still love each other.

Like that is huge.

Yeah, I say for for parents, teach your kids how to forgive.

Yes, teach your kids how to apologize, teach your kids how to share their emotions and how to regulate their emotions.

So when you're upset, this is this is what we want to do differently.

You know, and and just talking to them about that.

But I think those principles will help in a long way when it comes to conflict because you'll learn how to regulate, if you can learn to regulate your emotions, um, you're able to communicate or you're able to create a boundary for yourself to say, hey, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna wait until I cool down.

I'm gonna do some things to cool down and then I'll have a conversation about what I'm actually feeling.

And if my feelings are valid, then we can talk about that.

I'll say, then I want to like stop, but you just said something else that reminded me, I gotta have you on this podcast more often.

Man, you're crushing it.

Um next, I'm gonna be completely removed.

It's just gonna be Bishop Nate and Megan L and somehow I'm the special guest of case here.

Um but but but in all sincerity, like the the modeling how to apologize and how to forgive is so crucial.

Yeah.

Um that's a part of attachment styles, and that's a whole nother thing.

But but when kids can see a parent apologize, again, you're not teaching them to do it just because, hey, you say you're sorry, but you model it for them because when we as parents, and this is something that again, I I wasn't I wasn't raised in an environment where parents apologize.

Yeah.

It you know, and uh my parents are amazing, but that's just not something that they did.

It was like it moved forward.

They just moved forward.

We all just move forward.

Um, but a big part of childhood development, and they call it, they call it returning or repairing, is when you as a parent do something wrong and you can come back to your child and actually say, I'm so sorry, buddy, I didn't mean to do that.

I was wrong.

Yeah.

Without providing qualifiers, without providing this is why I did it, but just apologizing, you'd be amazed what that does to a child's um development.

Yeah.

They are so impressionable, right?

Especially earlier on.

And so for them to be able to see the way that you carry yourself, yeah.

It's almost like they it's almost like as osmosis, you know.

They just begin to take that on as well because like you said, you are their you are their authority, like you are their God-given authority, you are their the best influence that they have.

I think too, it just demands a lot of work from us.

Yes.

And we would rather not put in the work because there's already so many other responsibilities pulling.

But once we realize, like, hey, your house, your household, that's that's your number one priority, right?

And so if you start to prioritize other responsibilities uh over that, yeah, of course you're gonna be exhausted.

But yeah, if you put in the effort and the work like you were talking about, you you can see differences in that.

I'm gonna say this to you, Bishop, and for everybody who's listening.

Because I mean, we've we've we are at the stage where we have grandchildren now, so we're so kind of like far removed from the little ones.

But I can tell you on this side of things, having adult children, the the greatest compliment that my kids have ever given us has been I really respect you.

And when I think about the decisions we've made to get to that point, it wasn't that I'm impressed by the home we live in, I'm impressed by how much money you've made, I'm impressed by all these other things.

Certainly those things play a part, but each of my kids in their own ways at different points have said to me, to us, how they respect us.

That is the greatest.

Value.

So I think if we can as we're raising kids in this modern context, reverse engineer that for your children.

What do I what do they need to see in me that allows them to reach a point of adulthood and say, I really respect that?

And what I can tell you is very rarely is it connected to what you have, it's what you've given them.

Yes.

And I'd say it's not too late for any parent to change, right?

It's not too late to because it wasn't too late for us.

Now I'm seeing my kids like when they have like a problem or a conflict, they'll come and be like, Hey, mom, can I talk to you about this?

And I'm just like, okay.

And I'm like, okay, I can see your perspective.

I was like, that wasn't me for sure years ago.

It sure wasn't last year.

Weeks ago.

That wasn't her last one to see.

Um, but seeing them even modeling now is so crazy to see.

Like it makes me, it warms my heart that they're not carrying something in their hearts of, you know, there's an inner conflict they may have with their parents.

They're coming out and talking to us about it.

And that we can openly receive it and say, okay, yeah, let's let's work on this together.

Again, that goes back to modeling too.

And there's nothing worse than having your paradigm shift so much by thinking my family is this way, and in reality it's not, because you never saw anything else other than everything's great, everything's good.

You know, so my wife's calling me.

Hold on one second.

Hello?

I love it.

Yes.

No, I'm recording a podcast.

That's okay.

No, no worries, you're gonna be on after the message.

Yes.

All right, I'll talk to you soon.

This makes me so happy.

All right, bye.

Jen, he didn't want any conflict.

Conflict.

I had to answer the third point.

Always answer your spouse's answer your spouse's comment.

Last thing, she's just like, no, no.

We'll wrap, we'll wrap on this because both of you mentioned it, and I think it's pivotal is forgiveness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's more than just saying sorry, right?

Absolutely.

You know, it's more than just mouth service.

Like, what is biblical forgiveness?

We'll start with that.

Uh-huh.

Man.

Bro, how much time do we have?

No, it's make it short because you know you're long with it.

You go, you go.

You go first.

Okay.

Well, I I think forgiving is is not forgetting.

But like when we think about the premise of repentance, there's a moment of awareness of I'm I've done something, I've gone in the wrong direction, and this has brought harm.

So at its core, I think when we talk about what offense is, offense creates a barrier that almost makes it almost impossible for the relationship to move forward or to be reconciled or to be strengthened.

What forgiveness is, is ultimately saying, I am not going to hold this against you.

Now, that needs to be done with faith.

That needs to be done with trust.

Those are the ingredients that allows forgiveness to take place because you have to almost believe that the very thing that you did that caused me harm, I'm choosing to believe that you're not going to intentionally do that again.

So I'm not going to hold it against you.

But if we think about like forgiveness in the biblical sense, it was the wiping away of a debt.

You no longer owe this.

So it's genuinely getting to a space of we had this thing, but I'm not holding it against you.

And it takes a lot of work to get there, but that's nonetheless, that's the standard that Christ has set for us.

I think if we don't forgive, the result of that is uh there's resentment.

It does more stuff to you on the inside than it does for the other person.

Um I can remember going through an instant instant where I was um I didn't forgive someone.

And I for a whole year it ate me up inside.

I mean, it like literally tore me up inside.

And when I was able to release it, the freedom that I experienced, and I said, I never want to have that feeling again.

Sure.

Because when it broke off, it was like the light was bright.

It felt like chains fell off of me.

And I was like, man, I was carrying so much of this.

And I thought I was ignoring it, but ignoring a problem uh in hopes of avoiding someone and not having conversation does so much more damage on the inside of you that it comes out of you in other areas.

And so for me, forgiveness looks like you're moving forward and realizing that there's going to be expectations that people can't meet for you.

And they're going to disappoint me, as the Bible talks about.

So, how do you move forward?

Yeah.

And the and the the expectation that you have met today is you will officially replace Pastor Keith.

Uh I'm okay with that.

I'm okay with that.

Thank you.

No, it's in all sincerity, like this was super helpful for me personally.

I'm sure that it's going to be helpful for people within our church and beyond for just addressing the topic, you know, of of of conflict, of discomfort, and just facing it head on.

And yeah, man.

Thank you.

So appreciate uh you guys, and uh, we'll catch you guys next week on another episode of After the Message.

Thanks for listening to After the Message.

If you want to learn more about Celebration Church Orlando, visit our website, celebrationorl.org, or follow us on social media at celebrationorl.