Imago Dei - Panel on Disability

As they're getting comfortable, I'll read through

an intro that we're going to have for each one

of our panels. So I'll read that and then we'll

get started. Like I said, good morning. My name

is Scott. We're in the third week of our Imago

Dei series. As our panelists come up and get

settled in, we have a primer we want to read.

at the top of each of our panel discussions is

a way of setting the stage. The scriptures tell

us that from the beginning, we were created in

the image of God, and so we bear the likeness

of our creator, every single one of us. This

is why for many years now, our church website

has said, we welcome all persons and have no

leadership limits based on race, gender, identity,

sexual orientation, or physical ability. for

those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord. The central

standard is Jesus. But because of how the Bible

has been interpreted over the centuries, the

church has often implicitly and explicitly communicated

that we do not all bear the image of God or belong

equally. Women have been left out or excluded

from leadership in the church historic. Gay,

lesbian, trans, and queer folk have been promised

they can belong so long as they fit in. People

with differently abled bodies have often been

excluded or treated less than because of their

physical bodies. And non -white cultures and

ethnic groups have often been treated like they're

only here to help the quote -unquote real image

bearers. It sounds ugly because it is. It doesn't

sound like Jesus because it isn't. And so our

panel discussions during the Imago Dei series

are meant to be a kind of promise, not to perfection

or utopia. And we aren't expecting full agreement

for everyone in the room about everything. But

these conversations are a kind of promise that

we are working and learning to be a community

that is safe. for people pushed to the margins,

people of color, women, the disabled, and the

LGBTQ plus person, because we are all created

in the image of God, and no one should be left

out. As we all discuss what it means for us to

bear the image of God in the church and in the

world, and for the church to be a safe place

for us to grow in the likeness of Jesus, and

the fullness of what God has created us to be,

will you please welcome our panel for today?

I'm going to start all the way down to the end

with you, Dave, and then Kathy and Liam will

go to you. If each of you would introduce yourselves

and your friends and why you're participating

in this panel, that would be great. So this is

Sweetie Paw, when you guys recognize and know

her. And my name's Dave Hodge. I'm here kind

of just as her dad and to talk about it from

a parent's perspective. And Sweetie will interject

with laughs and probably chomps throughout the

whole entire thing. So do you want to say anything?

I'm Kathy Webb. I am here because I have several

different invisible or non -apparent disabilities.

I'm William. You all probably know me as Liam.

And what did I need to say? I've got some physical

disabilities in my arm. And then like my back

too. So yeah. All right. Thank you. And again,

my name is Scott. I had a spinal cord injury

about 10 years ago. So this year is my anniversary

10 year of being in a chair. And then I also

am the parent of a child with a disability. Our

daughter that we were able to adopt in November,

but have been caring for since birth and will

be three this month has Rett syndrome. which

affects her speech and her physical abilities

as well. How did you initially get connected

to God and church? And this time, Liam, if I

can start with you, you can share, and then we'll

go down and through. I mean, my dad is Pastor

Greg, so I... Yeah, I grew up here pretty much.

I've always known, like God and stuff. So yeah,

that's all. Yeah, so my parents come from two

very different Christian faith traditions. So

they got married and didn't know what to do or

where to go. So they didn't go anywhere. And

then I was invited to a vacation Bible school

when I was six. And we started attending that

church afterwards. Yeah, and I was raised by

both my parents from a very young age going to

church. They always taught our kids clubs and

Sunday school class and was a part of a program

that did verse memorization as a kid, like an

Awanas program. And I remember being seven years

old and just asking my mom what a verse meant

and how to explain it to me and accept your Christ

at that point. And then it has always been a

place of safety in my life and community the

church has just kind of. Moving around a lot

and getting involved in ministry. Also went on

to college and got a degree in ministry. Have

been a part of a lot of nonprofits and stuff.

And then Sweetie came into our care and has been

with us for going on six years almost now. So

yeah, so she's just kind of been a part of our

lives since then. Awesome. And for me, similar

to Liam, I'm a pastor's kid. So I was at church

every Sunday for as long as I can remember. whether

I wanted to be there or not, and it stuck. I

like being there, so I'm still there and still

a part. I'll start with you again, Liam. Have

you found it difficult or natural to accept how

you were made or your current physicality? I

feel like since... I mean, like, yeah, I guess

I've been this way for the majority of my life.

So if it is natural, it's just because it's,

like, most of what I've known, I guess. So, yeah,

I guess I would say, like, I've come natural

to it. So you've gotten comfortable with, you

know, the body that you have. Yeah, I make do

with it. Both. There are some parts of me that

are easier than others. So I think, like, I have

a chronic pain disability, amongst some other

things, and that one tends to be weirdly easier

to deal with with other people, but not as easy

with myself. So it just depends on the circumstances

and with whom I'm speaking as to whether or not

certain parts of me are easier or more difficult.

Yeah, and so for Sweetie, she's nonverbal. has

some developmental delay, has white matter changes.

And so, you know, asking her questions, sweetie,

do you love being sweetie? She's very happy all

the time. This is her demeanor, who she is. From

our parents' perspective, I mean, we have been

all in with her from the very beginning in life.

We've learned a lot and grown a lot, especially

around the ideas of faith. Just processing her

and who she is through faith. And so I think

we're at a very accepting place in our lives

with her and who she is. And we're always learning.

I mean, she's new every day. Yeah, thank you.

For me, it really depends on the day and situation.

There's days that I wake up and think, you know,

hey, this is the situation I'm in. It's okay.

I'm so grateful for the things I'm able to do

and the supports that I have. And then there's

mornings I wake up and feel like this is just

too much work. This is too frustrating and feel

very frustrated. So it can go back and forth

for me, definitely. What do you think God feels

about you? And has that changed over time? I

felt some acceptance. from the beginning of my

disability because it happened very suddenly

and it just became you know at the time I was

28 so I had some maturity and age and so it just

happened and you know I just came to the conclusion

pretty quickly of I had a relationship with God

this has happened I'll continue to have relationship

with God and so accepting that He understood

and accepted me, came pretty naturally. And I'll

remind our panelists, and just so you know, that

all of them know that if there's a question that

they don't really have anything to say about

or don't want to speak to, then they're welcome

to just go ahead and say that. So not everybody

will have something to add to every question.

Liam, do you have anything you'd like to share

on this one? I just think he cares about me just

as much as everybody else. So yeah, that's all.

Ditto. Well, I'll talk a little bit about this.

Is that okay? I'm sorry. So yeah, so with Sweetie,

this has been a huge change for me personally

and my thoughts of understanding religion and

Christianity and faith and all those type of

things. With her being nonverbal, I think a lot

of people... First of all, I'll say this. I think

a lot of people... I mean, Sweden's very complex.

And from the first view of her, I think the judgments

of, well, you know, even her schools would say

that when she was first tested that she ranks

around three or four years old. But she also

speaks another language. She came here speaking

another language. English was not her first language.

So the fact that she has... and understands English,

and as we talk to her and can communicate in

some phrases and respond to those things with

her feelings and match up those feelings with

her words when she does talk, simply saying I

love you or I eat or whatever she says, shows

to me that she has far more capabilities of understanding

than what she is given. And so when it comes

to faith and understanding, though, she also

is not able to respond. in the typical ways that

we have laid out through evangelical Christianity,

of that we expect a person to respond, to accept

Jesus as their personal Savior, and say the prayer,

and spend their life with devotion and prayer,

and reading the Bible and Scripture, and all

those type of things. And so that has to then

begin to shape, for me, differently. Like, how

does God view her? Perfectly. And so for me,

that is the beginning point for me of understanding

faith and understanding when it comes to her

that God looks at her perfectly. God's not expecting

anything from her more. He just gets to enjoy

her every single day. And I believe that deeply,

just as much as we get to live and enjoy her

every single day. And I have no expectations

for her as a parent, as a father. I think it

shaped a lot for me. It's changed a lot for me.

It's continuing to change a lot for me and how

I understand how God sees her and then how I'm

able to relate that even to myself and to others

about how really truly God sees us and understands

us. And what are those steps that we have to

take? And what does that look like? And I am

still learning. I'm still growing. I don't sit

here to say I'm an expert in this field. But

I will say the experience of having Sweden in

my life. has definitely began to shift in my

mind and my heart and my understanding of how

I see scripture and how I read scripture when

it pertains to God's love for us, God's grace

for us, what Jesus has done on the cross for

us. Because if we truly believe it does not come

from us earning those things or whatever that

may look like. then I have to believe that for

God and Jesus for her also. And so I believe

Jesus deeply loves her, cares with her, interacts

with her on a daily basis, lives with her, walks

with her, laughs with her, speaks to her, shows

up to her in dreams and ways that I don't understand

because she is constantly filled with joy and

laughter. And I wish, you know, more of my life

reflected that of what Sweetie lives out every

day. And with that, our next question is, is

there a certain place you go in the scriptures

that reminds you of that or causes you to think

of that? Yeah, so like for me, like the beginning

of the Sermon on the Mount, right, is like Jesus's

first ministry. Understanding the idea that when

Jesus goes, begins to speak, he has a plethora

of crowds, like thousands of people are following

him. before he ever opens his mouth. And those

are people who are demon -possessed, who are

sick, who have infirmities, who are coming to

Jesus to be healed. And so they're all coming

to Jesus, so Jesus heals them, and Jesus heals

them, casts out demons, and does all of this,

and then he sits down, and he begins to speak

to his disciples and the crowd, and the first

words that come out of his mouth is what we call

the Beatitudes. which can be looked at a thousand

different ways, but if you realize the first

words out of his mouth is blessed. Blessed are

those who are poor. Blessed are those who are

persecuted. Blessed are those who are sick. Because,

then he goes on to say, because they would see

the kingdom of God, they would do all these things.

Understanding that passage for me, knowing that

the concept of that all these people who are

coming to Jesus to be healed are people who have

been told their whole entire lives and in that

culture that they are cursed by God. In the biblical

times, if you had any type of ailment, sickness,

disability, injury, it's because you ticked off

God, and God was punishing you, and then you

were removed from your home. So you had to live

outside of the city walls. You were cast out.

You were seen as less. You were seen as unclean.

So to have all these people who believe because

of their infirmities, because of their disability,

or whatever they had going on, by culture, by

religion, that they were cursed, they come to

Jesus and they get the complete opposite. A,

they are freed of it. And then B, they're told

they are blessed. That you were never cursed.

That you have always been loved. That in God's

eyes, you have always mattered. You have always

been seen. So that for me is huge understanding

to begin this journey of looking at. you know,

and understanding sweetie through a life and

eyes of her disabilities and needs. And then

there's all kinds of stuff, right? Christ came

to die on the cross, and he says, I came to give

you life and life to the full. It's not an afterlife

to the full. It's a life currently to the full.

And so I believe that Christ died for my life

to be full. I believe that sweetie also gets

to have a full life because of that. Numerous

passages. I mean, I could go on all day. with

this, and I'll stop and pass it on. But I think

our ideas of heaven, of getting to heaven, and

we think the beauty that is heaven is there,

and we want to get there, but that becomes like

that escapism of, well, life is hard here, and

so there it's going to be perfect. But then Jesus,

again, like in his prayer, says, right, that

we pray that his kingdom come, his will be done

on earth, now, presently, just as it is in heaven.

And so that we get to live in God's presence

fully now on earth, just as we will one day in

heaven. Like that again, to me, plays into the

role of Sweetie's life, that she's living the

fullness of Christ now in her earthly body as

she will one day in heaven. So, so many things,

I think, for me fall into that. Yeah, thank you.

And to answer that question for myself and also

connect with a couple of the things you said.

My daughter is also nonverbal and has the most

beautiful smile and the most beautiful laugh.

And as I've met Sweetie and others, I have never

doubted for a second whether Sweetie was loved

by God fully. It is just so clear. But we often

struggle with that for ourselves and others.

Yeah. It can be a challenge for some of us that

are, it's always tough to find words, but able

-bodied or of normal mind. We can question decisions,

different things. But we never question that

for some of the more profoundly disabled. And

I think one of the reasons that's significant

is that doesn't come naturally. Throughout history,

that hasn't been the case, that we look at people

with more profound disabilities and say, wow,

that person is really a sign of God's love and

God's grace. And even those who don't recognize

Jesus as God's son or scripture are still influenced

in our culture by that belief. And everywhere

I would go in the world, people wouldn't necessarily

jump up and open a door for me or ask me if I

needed help. There are lots of places that that

might not be normal. For us, in our culture,

it's pretty normal. But I very strongly believe

that's because of the influence of, even when

we don't realize it, of Christianity, meaning

Jesus, and those teachings that you mentioned.

And I'll pause there. That's a tough one to pause

on. Liam, do you have anything to add about a

certain place that you see in scriptures? I was

thinking about it last night. And I went, I think

it was Romans 8. And Paul was writing about,

like, that we aren't from, like, this realm.

It's our, like, spirits that matter. And he was

just saying that, like, it doesn't matter, like,

what you're capable of doing with your body.

And it's like you need to just lead with your

spirit. Awesome. Thank you. I'm going to take

us to the Old Testament. So I love Ecclesiastes.

I'm one of those weirdos. And Ecclesiastes 7

.13 says, who can make straight what God has

made crooked? And I just love that verse for

several reasons. But, you know, God explicitly

says that he is the one who creates disability.

He told Moses this. He said, who makes man deaf?

Who makes man blind? Moses was complaining because

he didn't want to do what God told him to because

he had a communication disability and he didn't

know how he would go about doing that. And so

God is like, I made you this way. But because

you're uncomfortable with this, I will send your

brother Aaron as an accommodation for you. Right.

And so like there's this beautiful history throughout

the Old Testament where God is like, I did this.

And people are like, well, OK, then I guess I

have to deal with it. And I think for me, like

just recognizing the fact that like I'm not a

mistake, like God didn't have an error in the

pattern that he was using when he made people

like that's just so powerful to me to think like.

God did this for a reason, and I am this way

for a reason, and I live my life different than

a lot of other people, but that's by design.

That does different things. It teaches different

things. It allows me to learn different things

than it would if I just, like, you know, fit

them old people. Thank you. I'm going to move

on to, have you ever felt othered by Christianity

or the church? Because of your body and abilities.

And I would just start with the really simple

one of seating. I've been in churches where there

wasn't anything available for persons that use

a chair. And that can be tricky because it's

like, wow, nobody thought of this. You know,

nobody thought of the possibility of someone

in a chair coming in. This is where sometimes

people overcompensate. So they start removing

a whole row of chairs. And I'm like, I just need

a spot. I don't need you to rearrange the sanctuary.

So that's just a little example of sometimes

in church, and not just in church, but included

in there where people might wrestle or church

structures might wrestle to how to figure out

how to handle disability. Kathy, do you have

anything to mention that? And then I'll go Liam

and then Dave and Sweetie. Sure. So constantly,

not as much in some spaces as in others, but

it's little things, right? Like, so sometimes

my pain doesn't want me to stand up, but I am

young. And so people are like, why aren't you

standing up? Right. And then also sometimes when

you sit and you can't see the screen, so you

can't sing along. You literally can't see through

the tall people standing in front of you. But

also just little things like sometimes the songs

that are chosen have lyrics in them that are

just really hurtful. And there's just so many

places where there could be more thought put

into how we're thinking about and talking about

disability. I have had occasions where I've had

to go talk to a pastor after service and be like,

we need to talk about what you believe about

me and let's learn some things because I am incredibly

hurt right now. So it's definitely something

that is a constant thing on my mind because I

have had to battle it enough. I don't really

think there's much. I'm not really, I don't really

need many accommodations, so I haven't really

noticed this issue much. I also think that it's

cool that we're in a church that Pastor Greg

really has the perspective of having a family

member where that's something he's really conscious

of. And when he notices a need or something,

he'll ask myself or someone else with a disability,

hey, how does this affect you? So I think it's

really cool that you've gotten to be in a church

where that environment or that situation is something

that was thought of. Yeah, I think, you know,

there's all kinds of things, right? I mean, like

every individual is different. Every individual

has different needs. You know, I mean, for us,

like coming to church, you know, we can navigate

space and all of that kind of stuff. But there's

other needs of like, I mean, bathroom care is

a big thing. You know, I mean, like it's really

hard to change a sweetie in a restroom, just

being honest. She's a big kid. She's not an infant.

She doesn't fit on infant tables. You know what

I'm saying? And so those kind of spaces, of course,

I mean, that's everywhere, though. It's not just

the church. But I think for me, just growing

up in a church and spending time in a church,

there's obviously some truth there because there's

a lack of representation in the church. And the

more that I have been involved with other parents

of children with disabilities and having those

conversations, like, they don't feel welcome

in church. It's very hard for them to experience

church. There is a large population in our community

of people with disabilities, and very few of

them are represented in churches all across the

Quad Cities. And so there's obviously something

happening there that is not connecting, whether

that's how we view our children's spaces or even

our adult spaces or what that looks like. But

when you can go to an event where people with

disabilities gather, Like there's a local event

called Night to Shine that happens once a year

for people with disabilities. And you can have

so much registration that you have to fill two

spaces across two states to make that happen.

But yet when you walk into churches across the

Quad Cities, there's no representation of people

with disabilities, or very few. That should be

concerning for us as Christians all across, and

not just in the Quad Cities, but I think across

the United States and the world, it's probably

very much true. So I think there's a lot of growth

in things that can happen and conversations that

can be had with those type of situations when

it comes to church and people with disabilities.

Thank you. And I want to take a moment to acknowledge

this panel is doing an awesome job. Can we just

go ahead and thank them right here in the middle?

They're making asking questions a little tricky

because they're they're covering them so well

and doing such a good job that they're they're

covering a lot of stuff, which I appreciate.

What does it or would it mean to you for a church

to be the safest place for you? I'll start with

that and then Kathy will go to you and then Liam

and then Dave and sweetie. I think for me. People

being aware of having things being thought of

ahead of time. Or, hey, if we have someone with

a chair, we can let them know. What's the bathroom

situation? What is the chair situation? Would

you like help with the drink? Just being aware

of and thinking of those things for people that

come in with disabilities. It's always tricky

because it can be scary to ask someone a question,

and you might get a response of, I don't need

help with that. And you can feel behind it, I

don't like that you asked me that. And sometimes

I feel that. But at the end of the day, would

I rather leave somewhere feeling someone wanted

to help me even though I didn't need it, No one

was willing to have the courage to ask me if

I needed help or willing to make a space for

me. And so I think having the courage to make

mistakes and understanding that even if you do

have an awkward moment, that's okay. And it's

going to take that sometimes for people to feel

connected and have a space. I think for me, I've

seen and experienced so much discrimination that

I am constantly not able to be myself in spaces.

That is 100 % the thing that makes spaces not

safe for me is that I can't, I promise I'm not

crying, the lights are getting me. I can't lean

into who I am fully and trust that people are

gonna be okay with that. When people don't know

things about you, they say things. about you

that they don't know that they're saying about

you um and then you learn that you can't trust

them so you just kind of come to a place where

you're like this isn't a safe space for me i

can't be who i am and i'm not great at peopling

like just plain and simple like people are not

my gift um so it doesn't make it easy to make

those connections and to feel safe with people

and so um it would be a huge shift for me to

feel like I'm in a space where I could fully

be myself and not need to be hiding aspects of

myself. Wow, thank you. Do you have anything

that you'd like to add to that, Dave? Yeah, I

think just overall, you guys have said amazing

things. If we take Sweetie into a space... I'm

going to make sure that it's safe for her. I

think for other people, you know what I mean,

like coming into a space to feel safe, it comes

to the community mindset, right? Like are we

here to care for each other as a community or

do we walk in the doors for our own experience?

And so if we come into church in our own experience,

which is the individual mindset, which a lot

of us are stuck in in our culture, and that's

just how it is. But if you come in for individual

mindset, we're going to come in here, we're going

to have our experience and what we thought of

the service, what we thought of the music for

that day, if we could find parking or not, if

we could find a seat or not, and then we're going

to walk out the door with our frustrations, our

thoughts of what happened in that service. And

so as we begin to shift to think about how do

we want a community to experience church together,

how we want others to come into the space and

feel welcome and loved by each other as a body,

as a family of Christ, that then begins for us

to put ourselves aside and to make space welcome

for all people. And that will begin to change

as we begin to view things that way, and I think

it will begin to change as a community in the

church and the body as a church as we begin to

think that way. And I think that this is a great

space. I see that already happening. The fact

that we're having these discussions is the reason

that Greg's heart and the church's heart is that

we begin to become more of a community -minded

space of what we think of others first and not

just ourselves when we come to a church, and

that's the way it should be. And so yeah I think

there's always things right for others to come

in and feel space and there's things that we

have to think about whether that is facilities

or layout or extra volunteers you know because

sometimes people disabilities need help and support.

And so if we're going to have children coming

in with more disabilities it's going to take

more volunteers to help out in spaces to help

navigate that especially if their children and

their parents have you know are able bodied.

It allows them to have normal experience too

and allows them to have a little bit of peace

knowing that their child can be taken care of

and they don't have to be the caretaker of their

child at church also. And so, you know, there's

all kinds of things I think that can be done

and being mindful. And I see a beauty in this

church already. I mean, I see mothers coming

in with infants and I see other people who go

over to them and take their infant from them

so that they can have a little bit of space,

you know, and a little bit of peace and be able

to participate and support. I think as those

things kind of keep in mind, people feel more

welcome involved. as we're thinking of others

first instead of ourselves when we come into

spaces. Thank you. And sometimes when my wife

and I leave on our way home, and some of you

may have noticed this as well, that for the size

of our congregation, there's a lot of really

young infants and young kids, people of different

backgrounds represented, and people with disabilities

represented. And I think that's really cool,

and I think that says a lot about the community

that we have and the choices that our leadership

has made. And sometimes I could be in a much

larger group of people and be the only person

represented as a person with a clear physical

disability. But that's not the case here, and

I love that. I'm going to ask another question.

There's definitely some overlap here. So please

don't hesitate if you don't have something additional

to add. Just so I didn't say that. But the next

one I have for you is, what does it mean to you

to see people from diverse backgrounds, including

those with disabilities, included and given space

to be who God made them to be among Christians

and Christian community? That one's a little

longer, so I'm going to read it again. What does

it mean to you? To see people from diverse backgrounds

included and given space to be who God made them

to be among Christians and Christian community.

I'll start. Liam, do you have anything you'd

like to add to that one? I don't really have

any deep insight, but it does mean a lot to like

me as a person. Yeah, that's all. Thank you.

So I don't know many of you, but I teach it.

So I have a lot of facts in my head right now.

And one of them is the fact that like the CDC

says 28 % of non institutionalized adults have

a disability. Like that's a large number of people.

So if congregations are trying to be representative

of the communities that they're in, we should

expect about a quarter of the people. whether

or not you're able to see it so i think that

like framing it that way helps us to think a

little bit differently about who's in our space

right like that's a lot of people i don't have

a count for this room but it's a significant

number of people right and so if we're thinking

about that across multiple demographics like

if we want to be the the community, we need to

have people represented from those spaces, and

then that helps us to feel seen and be present

in spaces differently when we know we're not,

like, potentially the only one, right? Yeah,

I think for me, you know, I've said a lot already,

you know, but I think even for me just as a parent

with Sweetie, of some of the things that we went

through, like, it was easy for me to cross some...

boundaries but i had like fear right so like

um and this may sound weird to some people but

like even like the first time i remember like

we we participated in communion with sweetie

like walking her forward to give her communion

where in some spaces in church culture like that

they may not i don't know how people view that

you know like i don't understand how people Like,

my thought was, like, I don't know if I'm going

to get, like, conversations with this ass word.

Like, you know, like, saying, hey, well, is she

really a Christian? Like, has she said a prayer

yet? You know, I've kind of mentioned those things.

But I remember that first time of just giving

her communion and saying, no, like, I'm all in

with her being a part of the body of Christ.

You know, baptizing her. We baptized her on Mother's

Day two years ago here. You know, I mean, sweetie's

probably never given a procession of, like, a

personal, you know, profession of faith out loud.

But we're walking in that steps of faith of believing

that, hey, but God has like God's blessed her

and who she is and being OK with that. So for

me, like there was some things there where I

definitely struggled with feeling comfortable

with things in the church. and having to worry

about some of those things. But it's also what's

pushed me to dive in more to learning and to

researching and to, like, you know, reading the

Bible and having other discussions with people

about faith and what that looks like with people

with disabilities, especially where there's nonverbal,

you know, involved where they can't kind of vocalize

their thoughts. So yeah, and I think a lot of

misconceptions come through appearance, but there's

also, like you said, so much that's not seen.

But I also think with the church, I'll reiterate

again, we have to do better because there's a

huge community that's not represented and not

going to church. And that to me is where we could

grow as a church, is how do we reach out more

in our outreach to those areas and creating space

where people feel welcomed. Thank you. There

have been some great answers to this question

already, but this is the last question that I'll

ask, and you can choose if you have anything

you'd like to add. What do you think are practical

steps that individuals in our community can take

to ensure that disabled persons and their families

know they are valued, heard, and embraced? I

think for me... uh a little disability thing

is being willing to ask people if they need assistance

with something if you can see some type of challenge

they're having but being willing to accept their

answer sometimes if i say that i'm trying to

move it if someone sees me trying to move a chair

and they say hey can i help you uh the answer

might be yes the answer might be i have it And

then sometimes it's so hard to watch people struggle

to do something, but that doesn't mean that they

don't want to do it themselves. If I'm grabbing

a cup or something like that, and someone asks

if I want help, again, it's so appreciated. But

sometimes I might be perfectly fine struggling

with something for 30 seconds that might take

you two seconds to do. And I even noticed that

when Liam dropped his phone, There's an offer

to pick it up, but you chose to pick it up yourself.

And I've noticed just in observing Liam from

a distance, I'm going to go out on a limb and

say that you and I have in common that we stubbornly

would prefer to do things ourselves than accept

help. Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah, I'll step out

on a limb and say that. And so that determination

is there. Being willing to ask and then being

willing to accept the answer that's in response

and recognize that even if someone struggles

with something They might kind of enjoy the fight

a little bit So that would be that would be my

my answer Do you have anything you'd like to

add Liam? I feel similar. Okay. Thank you Yeah,

I mean I guess for me there's two big things

one of the biggest struggles for many of us with

disabilities in place is people's attitudes because

people just don't understand disability well

we haven't done a good job about talking about

it and so these you know unknown biases against

disability sometimes overwhelm people and make

it really hard for us and I'll throw research

at you again we know that the best way to become

comfortable with people who are different from

you is to spend time with them I know, revolutionary.

But thinking about how am I spending time with

people and am I getting to know people who are

different than me to help you work through some

of those things that you might not know that

you don't know. But then the other big thing

for me is just inviting. I might tell you no

100 times, but if you keep inviting me, that's

really meaningful. I have lost friends because

I said no too many times. Sometimes I say yes,

and then the day comes and I need to change my

mind and say no right but that invite and being

Intentionally included in things is really really

important especially I think for people with

disabilities because you might have Every intention

of going and then your body or your mind might

be like not today So having somebody who's still

willing to invite you even if you don't show

up regularly is really really meaningful Yeah,

I think, you know, the same thing, too, is just,

like, and I understand, like, I've had to learn

how to change my thoughts and processes and my

interaction when it comes to, especially people

with disabilities. So it's a learning curve,

but it's also the first step of just, like, reaching

out. You know, I mean, like, I know a lot of

people will approach her and may not know how

to even interact with her because they don't

know her disabilities just even by looking at

her. And you can come up and be like, hey, sweetie.

And she's just going to give you that look of

like, na, na, na, na. And she's going to reach

her slobber finger out towards you. And that's

what she's going to do because that's how she

shows she loves you. Because you can tell by

looking at me and wherever we go, we have wet

spots. I mean, so that's just life. But as you

hang out and spend time with her, you realize

the first thing is that she appreciates every

single interaction. Like, she soaks it in like

a sponge. And so I think for us, like, just going

out of our comfort zones and interacting and

talking and treating people like people, right?

I mean, that's just the overall rule that we

can always do better at no matter where we're

coming from or who the person is. But, you know...

It's just one of those funny things, like even

with Cameron, I blew Cameron's mind this morning

because he was like, well, why doesn't Sweetie

come to Treehouse? And I'm like, because she's

18. She's an adult. But you wouldn't know that

maybe by first looking at her. And so there's

a lot of things like that where it's just understanding

as people that we have to treat people as people

no matter what we want to label them or put them

in categories. You know, and that's just loving

them as they are, giving them the respect they

deserve, talking to them, interacting with them,

giving them the time of day because we all deserve

that, you know, and just being aware of that.

And it may be hard and difficult, but I think

it's just taking the first steps just to break

through those barriers yourself, not expect them

to come to you and be like, hey, this is what

you need to do. Like, break through the barriers.

Like, be the person that takes the first step.

Find spaces where it needs to happen, where you

can. And that goes with all things. Man, put

yourself in spaces other than what you live in.

Get outside of your circles. That's really how

change happens. That's really how we learn, right?

Like if you never went to school, you'd be like,

you probably know a lot less than what you know.

Because you had to get up every morning and you

had to go somewhere to learn well That's still

the model we live in every single day like you

we have to go out of our comfort zone And we

have to go to spaces we have to be around people

we have to interact and the more we interact

We realize how human we all are and then we can

begin to change and grow from those perspectives

Thank you, you can each take a deep breath unless

you have something you'd like to add we're Just

a kiss from sweetie. Thank you, sweetie. You

guys okay if that's our stopping point? Okay.

A couple quick comments. Thank you all so much.

Your answers have really resonated with me emotionally,

and I know I feel listening to you heard and

seen in really special ways. And so thank you

for that. I'd also like to do something. I'd

like to have Pastor Jen and Pastor Greg come

up, and I'm going to say a prayer for them. And

as they come up, I want us to think about the

work that they do to, if you'll come up on this

side of me, to have our community be the special

place it is. And when I think of these panels,

I know they're different from what we're used

to. But they're also discipleship. Isn't following

Jesus learning more about how to be like Jesus

and what he thinks and feels? And aren't we better

able to be Christ followers as we hear and see

these things? I think so. So I'd like to pray

for Pastor Jan and Pastor Greg. I want to thank

God. For the insight that he's given them and

the heart that he's given them. And also that

you would continue to lead them as they make

these efforts to make our church a more welcome

place. So I'm going to go ahead and pray for

that right now. Father, I thank you so much for

Pastor Jen and for Pastor Greg. And I thank you

for the heart that you've given them to love

people in unique and creative ways. and to go

beyond the all are welcome that we see on so

many church signs and that so many people think

that they mean, but don't understand what that

entails. Thank you for towards people of all

the things we're talking about on these panels,

especially today with disability, the heart that

you've given them to ask questions and to read

deeper into your scriptures. And I pray that

you'd continue to guide them as they go on that

journey to have increased insight and wisdom.

And we ask this in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Can

we thank everybody up here one more time? All

right, panelists, you're dismissed.