Imago Dei - Panel on Women in the Church

At this time, I want to welcome today's panel

forward. Miss Africa Davis, Kathleen North, and

Kelsey is going to come back up and join us for

today's panel. We are all looking forward to

this very, very, very much. As they're coming

forward, I'm going to do a little prep work as

well. So, today is our panel on women. And I'm

going to read to us a primer that we've been

using for this series, Imago Dei. It has been

the thing that has guided our discussion, that

all people are made in the image of God, but

there are those who have found themselves, unfortunately,

marginalized. in many, many, many spaces globally

and throughout history and society. So we want

to highlight some areas that we could do better

with as a church and hopefully even lead the

way. Today is Mother's Day. It is the day that

we have done our panel on women, but let us also

as a church remember. that women exist outside

of this holiday. And we want to do a good job

honoring not just the women who have become mothers,

but women in general. We want to remember them

at the table. We want to remember them in conversation.

We want to remember them in all areas of society.

And so let us as a church lead the way on that.

Our primer is this. The scriptures tell us that

from the beginning we were created in the image

of God, and so we bear the likeness of our creator,

every single one of us. This is why for many

years now our church website has said we welcome

all persons and have no leadership limits based

on race, gender, identity, sexual orientation,

or physical ability for those who confess Jesus

is Lord. The central standard is Jesus. But because

of how the Bible has been interpreted over the

centuries, the church has often implicitly and

explicitly communicated that we do not all bear

the image of God or belong equally. Women have

been left out or excluded from leadership in

the church historic. Gay, lesbian, trans, and

queer folk have been promised they can belong

so long as they fit in. People with differently

abled bodies have often been excluded or treated

less than because of their physical bodies, and

non -white cultures and ethnic groups have often

been treated like they're only here to help the

quote -unquote real image bearers. It sounds

ugly because it is. It doesn't sound like Jesus

because it isn't. And so our panel discussions

during this Imago Dei series are meant to be

a kind of promise, not to perfection or to utopia,

and we aren't expecting full agreement for everyone

in the room about everything, but these conversations

are a kind of promise that we are working and

learning to be a community that is safe for people

pushed to the margins, people of color, women,

the disabled, and the LGBTQ plus person. because

we're all created in the image of God and no

one should be left out. As we discuss what it

means for us to bear the image of God in the

church and in the world, and for the church to

be a safe place for us to grow in the likeness

of Jesus and the fullness of what God has created

us to be, will you please welcome our panel for

today. actually did some work on monday night

talking through some of these questions and the

conversation was so rich and full and then we

realized we've got 30 minutes and so um so we'd

love to keep having this conversation further

we all agreed on was this is a starting conversation

that this is a starting point and from here we

want to continue to just keep the door open on

those conversations. And I think that is the

case about this series, that this is not just

a one -off and then we've had the conversation.

I think, Corey, you said it as well, that this

is a starting point that we go from to realize

we can talk about these things. We are a community

that talks about things, we wrestle with things

together, we understand, we listen. And so that

is what we want to see happen from these conversations,

that these are starting points. And if from these

starting points you want to start with these

women, that is okay. And then the conversations

go out from there. You already know these are

individuals who are ready and willing to talk

and answer questions. And if that is a safe place

to start, Great. And then you can learn how to

carry these conversations into other places.

Because part of what has happened with marginalizing

various groups of people is we've gotten real

quiet. We've gotten real quiet about talking

to or with others about these things because

we don't know. Is it okay? Is it okay? Y 'all,

it's okay. And so... We are happy to continue

this conversation past today. So I'm going to

ask the first question, and when I do, I'm going

to also have you guys introduce yourself personally

with that. So how did you initially get connected

to God and the church? My name is Kelsey Campbell.

I grew up in the church. I grew up going to church

with my parents and my siblings. My dad was an

elder at our church, and I remember in high school

thinking, why is just dad an elder? Why isn't

mom? But I didn't have the critical thinking

skills at that point to dig into that. It was

just I specifically remember having that thought

when my dad was prayed in as an elder. And so

grew up going to church, but it wasn't until

I got to college where I had to make the choice

to go to church on my own. My parents weren't

telling me to go every Sunday, and I did make

that choice. And that is kind of when my relationship

with the Lord personally began, I would say.

Hi, I'm Kathleen North, and I grew up going to

church, similarly to Kelsey. I went to a church

where women were in leadership roles. One of

the pastors that was a big part of my spiritual

guidance when I was growing up in the church

was a woman, and she was the head pastor. And

we had elders and deacons who were also women,

and so that is kind of my foundation for church.

But when I went to college, I... I learned that

people didn't have women in leadership in their

churches sometimes, and that was a big shock

for me. But I got involved in a campus ministry

in college, and that was at a time when I had

to decide between quite a few different ways.

So I joined a sorority, and I joined a college

campus ministry at the same time that believed

Jesus loved Greeks. And so that was a huge part

of how I got involved in the church and came

to know Jesus. through those things. Good morning

and happy Mother's Day. My name is Africa Melzine

Davis and I started going to church with my grandmother

when I was a toddler. Shout out to Melzine Davis.

I still love you. I started going to church with

her because she wanted to introduce me to God

and not only the word of God, how we're supposed

to be in the likeness of the Lord. She was just

a saint to me. I grew up writing poems about

how God -fearing she was. She introduced me to

not only church, but family, church family. So

that's why I value the house to this day because

this is a family to me and I love you guys very

much. With your experience, the world that we

live in can be pretty male -driven. Being a woman

in the world, take some navigation. How have

you come to, has it been difficult or easy to

come to terms with womanhood as it relates to

how you walk through the world? I'll go ahead

first on this. So I was reflecting on this a

lot, and I realized that my experience of being

a woman has been pretty... simple pretty easy

and that is because of a lot of things i am white

i am educated i come from finance a financially

stable background there are so many privileges

that i haven't earned and so i think that helps

me to be to move through the world with fewer

barriers and fewer yeah i just have less to navigate

and So I was remembering that I got to be an

honorary member of the Boy Scouts when I was

a child. That was before girls could join, I

believe. And I got to just join right in with

the Boy Scouts and do all their activities and

stuff. And so I felt accepted in that, even though

I was separate still. And then later in college,

as I mentioned, I joined a sorority. I just found

different expressions of how I could be myself.

And I have also experienced myself to be the

gender that I was born as with just my anatomy.

So that would be, you know, I experienced the

world of being a cisgender straight person. So

that has been more natural for me. Again, fewer

barriers, fewer things to navigate. I would say

my experience in a male -driven environment.

I grew up in a church where women had most of

the responsibility or all of the responsibility

with no control. There was always a gap between

the people who were responsible, which were the

women, and the people who made the rules. The

rules were just basically followed through with

the word of God. But the women in my grandmother's

church were the ones to make a statement and

make it easy for us to understand the word of

God, who were there front and center to let us

know that God loves us and that we have a responsibility

to follow through with the word and be good people.

So I never really got a full male experience

until I was an adult. the church, you know, watching

Greg and everybody talk about how good God is.

This is the first time for me. And I enjoy every

bit of it because being a woman in a male driven

environment, you can become obsolete. You can

become very invisible. If they can't see you,

you start to not know yourself. You start to

not be able to see yourself and what you have

to offer in the house of God. So yeah, it's,

it wasn't, you know, perfect, but it was good

to see women take control of their own and to

be able to run through a male -driven environment,

even though the odds were against them most of

the times. You know, their names weren't on things,

but our head pastors was, but they did all the

work, and I will always give commitment to them.

To that point, I have a ton of resources that

I brought because I love... books and reading.

Africa's point, women were often obsolete or

invisible, is how you said it on Monday. And

this book, Invisible Women, is about the lack

of data on women in the world and how that affects

every area of our society. So I'm going to leave

that up here, just if you want to take a picture

of it or browse through it. It's really insightful.

To your point about... being in a male -dominated

space. I was called to become a pastor when I

was 14, and I grew up in a church that was affirming

of women in ministry. I was really, really fortunate.

But when I went to college, I was not ready for

the array of different experiences people were

coming from, and for those of us who were studying

to be pastors, what that was going to look like.

And I remember talking to... one of my another

person who was in the ministry track another

woman and she stated something so overtly that

was essentially like how to be like she was trying

to replicate male pastoring but I said but you're

a woman you're not a male pastor but I it it

helped me recognize that that was sort of the

thing that we were experiencing, being surrounded

by all these men, a majority of men, and a majority

of men in the field, that there were women coming

up in pastoral leadership courses that were looking

to replicate male leadership in the church. And

there wasn't a whole lot of examples of how to

be a woman in ministry, and we had to forge our

own way. Or recorded. Thank you. And that goes

along with the invisible data. And I would love

to actually hear you share a little bit more

about that if you want to. Because I think you

talked about that more on Monday night. Both

of you did. But yeah, the recorded stories. I

didn't know where to look. And it wasn't until

I got to college that I started having to think

through what it means to be a woman in a largely

male -dominated space. Initially, I... And I

grew up in the town where Susan B. Anthony was

where she lived. Frederick Douglass lived there.

These are spaces where I was like, yes, we've

made headway. And then I get to the church and

it's like, thank you, but no, you've got to figure

out how to be a woman again. So it started as

a natural place and then I had to figure it out

like in my 20s. I think even just the language

that you used too, you said. your pastor courses

and then you distinguish between female pastor

like that language that is used is that it's

assumed that a pastor is a male and you had to

identify you had to put the word female in front

of that and how often does that happen where

you have it's called the default male that you

have the statement and then you have to add female

to it to designate that this is a woman doing

it Stay alert of that. I've always loved being

a woman. I've never questioned that. I love femininity

and living in dresses. I was telling Jen, I think

it was actually just last Sunday. Something I've

really wrestled with, though, since becoming

a mom is I love being home with my kids. And

I feel like that is where I'm called to be. I

love nurturing them and raising them and loving

them. And I really wrestled with, like, am I

no longer a feminist because I've become the

stay -at -home mom and I love it? And kind of

really just had to realize the power for me was

that that was my choice. Like, that was a choice

that was made for me. That was not something

that... Alex said, you have to stay home with

our kids now. It was my choice. And for me, that's

where I find empowerment. And that is the choice

that I made. And I have friends who also have

kids, and they are working. And that is the choice

that they made. And I feel so thankful that I

was able to make that choice, that we have the

financial means of being able to do that, because

I do know that that's a privilege as well. And

largely, women walking through the world often

have to define themselves or are asked to define

themselves by a male standard, how they relate

in the world to a standard that has already been

set in maleness. But that is not God's design.

God has designed us separately and differently

and uniquely. we've had to navigate what that's

like living in a male -driven world, or in some

male -driven spaces, but how do you experience

God and your affirmation of who you are with

God? How do you think God feels about you as

a woman? Has that changed over time? And is there

a place that you specifically go in the scriptures

to remind yourself of what God really thinks

of you? Okay. I feel as though God has not only

allowed women to be the sunshine to a man's moon.

We are partners. We are loved by him unconditionally.

And that's crazy because we as humans, we have

conditions to be loved. I was actually having

this conversation earlier, and I was saying my

love is not unconditional unless it's towards

God. I require respect, and that is definitely

something that in a male -driven environment

has to be the forefront. It has to be something

we have to come to as this is what I want from

this environment, and this is what I deserve.

But it's often shut down because we can be called

aggressive. Or we can be ignored because, you

know, conflict in the church when I was growing

up was just non -existent as recorded. But it

definitely existed. A place that I go through

in scriptures, I was telling Jen and everybody

else that I wanted to go to Ruth so bad. Because,

you know, she stood her ground. She got her man

and she kept it pushing, baby. She said, this

is mine and I got it now. But I instantly went

back to Sarah and Hagar. Because I feel in these

times that this is what we go through. A tug

of war between men and women and women and men.

Especially in 2025. There's a border between

us. And I feel that a woman like Sarah, who looked

at Hagar as an extension to a person that she

loved and deemed responsible for her happiness,

had an extension like Hagar to have a child by,

open up the world to God's grace. That there

are people out here that can bear children and

love each other all at once. But I feel that

Sarah was more of a person who wanted it to be

her and only her. And a lot of the times I feel

like that's what's happening today. We can't

share God's grace. And I'm saying women versus

women right now. There shouldn't be that. There's

already a male -dominated environment throughout

the world that, not saying all males. Oh, you

guys are beautiful. I love you guys. But other

people feel that, like I said, women are obsolete.

And that type of drama between women versus women

doesn't make anything better for us. So I feel

like that has changed. Maybe just a little bit.

We're getting better, but the more we speak on

this topic, it shall continue to grow. I'll jump

in here. Since I came to recognize that Jesus

loved me, I was 14 when that was the case, and

that was never an issue for me to recognize that

God loved me. When it talks about how it changed

over time, it grew. My confidence, how I saw

myself, because I saw myself as quite low, small,

unvaluable. The transformation in my life about

how I see myself because of how God saw me and

how I was able to move in the world is huge.

It's such a testimony. When I talk about where

I go in the scriptures to remind myself of what

God really thinks about me, I am so encouraged

by the women in the New Testament that were the

early church leaders. And there is no word about

any of their attachments. We don't know if Phoebe

was married. We don't know if Junia was married.

We don't know about Lydia because it didn't matter.

Their attachments didn't matter. i'm encouraged

by that because we have defined women so much

about who they're attached to um and who they're

connected to and i'm i'm just not like i'm not

um i'm not a married woman i'm not going to be

a mom in the traditional sense um and so seeing

these women in scripture that were identified

as leaders not because of who they were attached

to but because they had their own Their own fullness

of identity was huge for me. So those are women

in particular that stand out to me in scripture.

It doesn't necessarily mean that we have to choose

these women, but how do we see ourselves represented

in scripture? This is how I see it for me. I'll

share a little bit more about myself. So the

question, what do you think God feels about you

as a woman? Up until recently, I feel like I

didn't fully understand that I was a woman. That

sounds very strange to say, but I had such a

confident childhood upbringing and I could flow

between different groups just fine. It wasn't

until I experienced fertility adventures, we'll

call it, that I really understood that I was

a woman. And not all women have biological parts

that can create children. But my husband and

I had hoped that we would have a third child.

And it wasn't until I had a very traumatic emergency

department stay for over 10 hours waiting for

care. And then we learned that I had a pregnancy

growing outside of the uterus that had to be

surgically removed in an emergent way. It's a

long story and I'll tell you about it sometime

if you want to know more about it but the main

part of that was that I hadn't fully understood

that I was holding on to some of my worth as

it was attached to being a mother and performing

womanhood that way and there were consequences

of that event that over the months played out

and really broke that down for me. So that was

with the help of a physician and nurses and my

family who saw me made in God's image and worked

really hard to help me to see who God was. And

that in addition to my worth not being tied to

being able to have children, I also fully for

the first time realized that I didn't have to

do anything. I could just be me. So I've been

really enjoying having that experience for the

last couple of years now. And yeah, so in the

scriptures, I don't look to, like I love the

leaders, the women leaders in scripture, but

what comes to mind for me is the woman who bled

for 12 years. And here's my emotional support

papers. So in Matthew 9, 22, Jesus turned and

saw her. Take heart, daughter, he said. Your

faith has healed you. And the woman was healed

at that moment. And I think that's beautiful

because Jesus was fully God, fully human, knew

that there are parts in people's bodies that

bleed, and he didn't shy away from that, and

he... said that her faith healed her. And yeah,

so Jesus acknowledged it, but I feel like we

have a long way to come in just general women's

health. And, you know, with the NIH ending contracts

recently for one of the largest studies for women's

health, that happened recently. Yeah, so Jesus

was on it, but maybe we are not so much right

now. I'm going to insert some statistics here.

So there's a significant research gap in women's

health with less funding and research dedicated

to conditions primarily affecting women compared

to those affecting men. Black women in the U

.S. experience a significantly higher maternal

mortality rate compared to white women with the

rate being about 2 .6 times higher. And in 2023,

the maternal mortality rate for black women was...

50 .3 deaths per 100 ,000 live births, while

the rate for white women was 14 .5. White female

patients are twice as likely as male patients

to die within one year of a heart attack. They

are also less likely to be prescribed preventative

treatment because when they go to the doctor,

what are they told, women? Who's ever been told

that? That's the... But men in the same condition

are not told to lose weight and their pain is

taken seriously. Whereas women have to often

go through months to years to get doctors to

hear their cries for help when it comes to pain.

It takes an average of seven to ten years for

a patient with endometriosis to receive an accurate

diagnosis, but the frequent dismissal and belittling

of pain is present in all women's health care.

Women are less likely to be given painkillers

than men. And you brought up the statistic last

time we talked that women's health had not been

studied overall and in earnest until the 1980s

and 90s. That's when major studies started beginning

for women's health. And so to that, when we recognize

that Jesus saw women for their full bodies, that's

an important point to take. In your experience,

have you felt more othered or affirmed? So othered

or affirmed by Christianity or the church because

of your gender? And is there a story you'd feel

comfortable sharing? I can share. So because

I am a woman, I feel like I have had roles, gender

roles placed on me. And so one such story is

I used to work for a nonprofit before I had kids.

It's a Christian organization, and so I had a

Christian volunteer. And we were just chatting

before a program, and I had made the comment

about, you know, going home that night to eat

dinner with Alex and how he would have dinner

ready to go at 8, 830 whenever I got home because

it was a second shift job. And she was surprised

by that and kind of, she's like, you don't cook

dinner? And I said, I don't get home until 8

or 8 .30. No, like, no, it's hot and ready to

go when I get home. And she was like, oh, well,

do you get up and make him his breakfast or pack

his lunch for work? And I was like, no, he does

that. And so she offered to send me recipes for

easy dinners that I could make for my husband.

And I was like, you know, I don't like cooking.

Alex is gifted in that way. He's a very good

cook, and I don't want to. But it was something

I really wrestled with, and Alex actually reminded

me that it was something I wrestled with for

a long time. Like now, because it's been so many

years removed, and I feel very confident in my

non -cooking skills, that it's easy to kind of

brush off. But it definitely made me question,

you know, am I being a good wife? I'm not cooking

my husband his food? And I was like, that was

such a silly thing. Like, that's a gender role

that has been placed, that was placed on me.

That is not true. That's a worldly thing, and

that has nothing to do with me being a woman

and my lack of cooking skills. And in terms of

a partnership, a household takes on the various

roles that it takes on. You don't want to assign

them just because this is what is traditional

when it doesn't actually work as a system for

the house. Anyone else? Okay. I'm actually gonna

jump ahead to our last question because I think

that there's some significant value to, because

it's very solutions oriented and forward thinking.

So what do you think are some barriers that prevent

churches from being fully inclusive of women

and their leadership abilities? And what do you

think are the practical steps that individuals

and our community can take to ensure that women

know they are valued, heard, and embraced? I'll

start off with the practical steps is keep the

conversation open and affirm that women are here.

We are in the church, too. We hold roles and

responsibilities just like everybody else. But

to be affirmed of that, you've done this. Like,

Jen, you've done a wonderful job leading this

church. And you may not be a physical mother,

but you have mothered my son into submission.

So thank you for helping me raise my child. But

the barriers that exist are just that. They still

exist. So I would just say keep talking. Keep

letting it be known that we are here and we're

not just cave women being pulled by our nappy

ponytail. Like, we are. good people and so are

the men around us so if we all just come together

and keep keep um keep ourselves open to the possibility

that there is growth there then women have a

chance to prosper within the church yes well

and you had said i mean your statement earlier

about women had um a lot of this they spoke up

they had a lot of voice but they had no power

because they weren't invited to be at the table

where decisions were being made and where conversations

were being had, big and little, because even

what is considered little affects the big things

in many places. It gave servitude. That's what

it gave. It gave servitude. And I don't know

about everybody else, but I'm not walking around

with a platter unless God's name is on it. So,

you know, my grandmother did what she had to

do. I'm not going to shun her for anything. You

know, she stood there and she took what she could

to, give the word of the Lord to especially us

as children. So I will never diminish the work

that these women have done, but they deserved

better. They did. I would say knowing our history,

whether that's women's history in general or

specifically women in the Bible. And I think

Kathleen brought a book, which is really good,

The Making of Biblical Womanhood. Highly recommend.

It talks about the early leaders of the church,

and there were female leaders of the church,

but were not taught about them, or they are just

brushed aside as, oh, Phoebe wasn't a deacon

in the terms like the men were. She was just

a leader. But it was the same word. used to describe

the male deacons as she was given. I was actually,

last night when I was reading in preparation

for this, in Romans 16, the NLT version has switched

Junia's name to Junius. That's still 2025, and

this is a female, but we have made her name a

male's name because it couldn't possibly be a

woman that Paul is writing about. She's named

an apostle. historically churches have said apostles

are men. And so they have literally in translations

taken the step to say this couldn't have possibly

be a woman because it was an apostle. So there

must be a typo. It must be Junius instead of

just saying Junia was an apostle. And that's

not just like a, oh, like there's historical

evidence that she was a female. And so knowing

our church's history with a woman who... We've

always been here. Women have always been a part

of the church and leading in the church. We maybe

just don't know their stories because they haven't

been recorded. And another just a small thing

that I've consciously kind of tried to do is

our kids call adults Miss or Mister, but they

know it is Pastor Greg and it is Pastor Jen.

And my hope for them is that they are just used

to hearing Pastor Jen. Like it's not... They

don't ever question if a woman could be a pastor

because they grow up seeing Pastor Greg and Pastor

Jen. And it's not Miss Jen, it's Pastor Jen.

I want to add just one quick thing on to what

Kelsey was saying about learning our history.

One of my favorite parts of the Making a Biblical

Womanhood book, I have it bookmarked up here

if you want to come read the actual page. I learned

about the different translations of the Bible

and how they were written and in what context

they were written in and how the King James Version

made it really accessible for a lot of people

to read the Bible, but it also changed the language

to more man -men focused, son instead of daughters.

And then later, the NIV was made to be more inclusive.

but it was just going back to what the original

language was, more inclusive of humankind, people,

they. And so I think that it's really important

to understand the history of where did our Bible

translation come from, in what context was it

written, and how can we understand that now,

today? When the NIV translation did move to a

more inclusive and true to... manuscript translation

the the church was crazy there was so much if

you were around it was like the late 90s early

2000s I think that some that language went back

to being the original when it said man mankind

or humankind or men and women people were in

uproar if they came from a a very conservative

background, not realizing that the history is,

that's actually the truer version of the language.

And so we have to ask questions of translations.

We have to ask questions of history and of interpretation.

Because we do look to the scriptures as the story

of God that we lean into to tell us. how God

sees us, and how he loves us, and the stories

there are true, but we have to ask questions

of the translations. We have to ask questions

of the history. Don't just assume that what you

have is this direct from Paul and Jesus' mouth.

Ask questions. That is okay to do. We are going

to wrap this up here, but again, this conversation...

does continue. We had more questions. We have

more things that we'd love to discuss. I'm going

to put books out on the table. Kathleen's book

is going to be up here too with her highlights.

We are both conversationalists with our books.

I know Kelsey is as well. And so, yeah, please

come take a look at these things. We are going

to move to communion now. Oh, baptism is before

communion. But I am going to pray for us as we

transition to that. So, Lord, we are grateful

that you see all of us completely, that you see

us all fully, and that there is nothing that

separates us from you. And in you, even though

you have designed us fully in every way, we are

so grateful that there is no hierarchy. There

is no... Yeah, the fight that has been created

in history about where people belong is not one

we want to perpetuate. It's not an idea we want

to perpetuate. And we want to be a place that

is safe for all people. As we reflect on today's

discussion, we want to be a place that's safe

for women. The church has not always been that.

So guide us in all truth, God. We are asking

for your leadership and guidance in these things

and that we would be brave with the conversations

and brave with our own critical thinking and

open to your spirit as you lead us forward into

a better way. We pray this in your name. Amen.

Let's thank our panel.