Imago Dei - Panel on LGBTQ+ Inclusion in the Church

Well, good morning. I already said my name is

Greg. I'm one of the pastors here. If we've never

met before, I would love the chance to meet you.

There's going to be a QR code at the end of the

service. There's also one on every one of the

tables if you want to put your camera at that

and fill out that connection card and just put

that you'd like to meet with the pastor. We'll

make sure to connect. We are in the fifth and

final week of our series that's called Imago

Dei. And as our panelists come on up, you guys

can come up now and find a seat. I'll just sit

here on the end, but you guys can decide who

wants to sit where in the other three. As our

panelists come up, we have a primer that we have

been reading at the top of each of our panel

discussions as a way of setting the stage. The

scriptures tell us that from the beginning, we

were created in the image of God, and so we bear

the likeness of our creator every single day.

One of us. This is why for many years now our

church website has said we welcome all persons

and have no leadership limitations based on race,

gender, identity, sexual orientation, or physical

ability for those who confess Jesus Christ as

Lord because the central standard is Jesus. But

because of how the Bible has been interpreted

over the centuries, the church has often either

implicitly or explicitly communicated that we

don't all bear the image of God equally. Women

have been left out or excluded from leadership

in the church historic. Gay, lesbian, trans,

and queer folk have been promised they can belong

so long as they fit in. People with differently

abled bodies have often been excluded or treated

less than because of their physicality. And non

-white cultures and ethnic groups have often

been treated like they're only here to help the

quote -unquote real image bearers. It sounds

ugly because it is. It doesn't sound like Jesus

because it isn't. And so our panel discussion

during this series, they're meant to be a kind

of promise, not to perfection or to utopia, and

we aren't expecting full agreement about absolutely...

everything from everyone in the room. But these

conversations are a kind of promise that we are

working and learning to be a community that is

safe for people that have been pushed to the

margins. People of color, women, the disabled,

and the LGBTQ plus person. Because we were all

created in the image of God and no one should

be left out. So as we discuss what it means for

us to bear the image of God in the church and

in the world, and for the church to be a safe

place for us to grow in the likeness of Jesus

and the fullness of what God has created us to

be, will you please welcome our panel for today.

The lights can be a little bright to the uninitiated.

So I'm putting this here. If you guys want anything,

I have another. I'm going to pull out. I realized

that it's nice to have something that us on the

panel can put our drinks on. So I just thought,

you know what? I'll pull these out, and you can

move those around however you like, whatever

makes sense for you. And then I will plop myself

up on this. Do you mind each of you just introducing

yourself to your church family? Hi, y 'all. My

name is Destiny. I'm Bradley. And I'm Kathy.

All right. Let's see. So throughout this series,

we have been using the same questions for each

panel, just changing them slightly so that it

makes sense for the people that we're chatting

with today. And so as you feel comfortable, I

wanted to just ask what... What was your introduction

to God and or church and how did you initially

get connected to God and church? If you don't

mind, we'll just go straight down. So my mom

grew up Catholic and my dad grew up. I forgot

what denomination, honestly, but he was forced

in a church and he said that my. Papaw would

always poke him in the leg with a pencil if he

was falling asleep. So we went to a few services,

but my parents inevitably let me pick my own

adventure with Jesus and stuff. So I started

going to a church back in my hometown from Rochelle,

Illinois, and I started going to Sunday school,

started going in the worship band and all that.

So just really found my own path with Jesus.

I also grew up in the church. My parents were

both very active in the church. I was very active

in my home church growing up. I went to a Christian

undergrad and have pretty much always attended,

though I have changed where I've gone and what

specific denominations and flavors I've gone

to. Yeah, so I had a mom who was Catholic and

a dad who was from the Church of Christ. And

so when they got married, they went, where do

we go? So they didn't go anywhere until my sisters

and I were invited to a vacation Bible school.

And then we started attending that very conservative

church. We stayed there until we were asked to

leave. And then we attended a different conservative

church. And so I've moved around from place to

place. over time, but have chosen different kinds

of churches since I have been old enough to make

that decision myself. So if you feel comfortable

sharing, because it's not always obvious to everyone

that we know or that meets us, how do you personally

identify, and with that in mind, have you found

it difficult or natural to accept who you are

or how you were made? Start anywhere. I self

-identify as gay, homosexual, whatever. It was

certainly not easy to affirm who I was, to accept

that within the church. Like I said, I had always

grown up in the church, and I grew up specifically

in very conservative churches until my adulthood,

mid -20s. And so it took a long time for me to

sort of combine the two aspects. in my life,

and that actually happened while I was in undergrad

at a conservative Christian school, but in sort

of a more progressive bubble that allowed me

to go on that journey for myself and find my

personal relationship with God and my personal

relationship with the balance between my orientation

and attractions and my faith. Now it seems so

silly. That was such a hard journey for so long.

But yeah, it was a long journey. I would say

I probably knew that something was different,

though I didn't necessarily have the language.

From the time I was very little, I probably was

able to put a label on it when I was in high

school. wouldn't even let myself think about

it or explore that until I was in college. But

yeah. Sure. So I am a cisgender woman who is

asexual. About 1 .7 % of the population is asexual.

So we are people who do not experience desire

for physical intimacy, we'll say, since it's

a mixed -age room. So for me, it was an interesting

experience growing up because there was no option

but straight, heterosexual. And I didn't even

learn that asexuality was a thing until I was

in my 30s. So it's my newest identity. So I'm

still working some things out there. But it was

really hard growing up because, especially in

the teenage years where everyone's thinking about

other people, I was like... why are we spending

so much time talking about this? This doesn't

make any sense to me. So we'd have weeks where

we would do purity stuff, and you'd sign the

cards, and I'd be like, is everybody really having

a problem with this? I don't understand why we

spend so much time talking about this. There

are so many other interesting things we could

be talking about. And so it lends itself to a

lot of interesting relationship dynamics, but

the expectation for me was always... that I would

get married and have kids, and that I was going

to be the first of my sisters to do that. My

mom got married the day after she turned 20.

That was supposed to be what happened for me,

and I am now in my 40s and unmarried, the only

one of my sisters who has never been married,

and the only one of my sisters who has never

had kids. And that was not what was supposed

to happen, and that's not what I was supposed

to be. I grew up in a church where... women grow

up they get married they have babies and they

raise them and so i have done none of those things

and that has made life very interesting in terms

of my church attendance and then i identify as

non -binary so they them pronouns and pansexual

um so i Had a really hard time accepting myself

because we grow up in a community where you want

to check a box right you want to label what you

are and I was just talking to Jake about this

earlier and saying how I Couldn't find the words

to figure out when I had fallen for my first

female and you know then that that really complicated

things in my mind too because oh my gosh, does

this mean God's not going to love me anymore?

You know, does this make me unholy? Does this

make me not belong? So it was really, really

hard. But the more that I've grown with my faith,

I feel like I finally have found a church home

that affirms who I am and is graciously still

wanting to take the fruits of my labor, right?

Like other churches, I know I've been a part

of boards that it's time, talent, and treasure.

And other churches are great to take your talent

sometimes if you fit the box. They're always

willing to take your treasure, that's for sure.

But here, it's totally the opposite, and we can

really be who we are. First of all, thank you

for being so vulnerable. I think that this is

something that, for at least one person on the

panel, I said, hey, I'm willing to not stream

this. If you would prefer that. Because it's

an extremely vulnerable thing that they're doing.

And so just thank you very much for being so

vulnerable about this. And so I just wanted to

ask what we've asked everyone else. What do you

think God feels about you? And has that changed

over time? I'll go first. I think God loves me.

In my journey, I think... It doesn't matter who

I've loved, who I'm going to love in my future,

whether that's romantic, friendship, platonic,

you know. I just know that God is a good God

and I wouldn't be made to be just condemned to

hell. So I think God loves me for who I am. Yeah,

I think very similarly. I think, not to like

jump questions or weave questions together, but

I'm... And I know that this passage has been

brought up other times in this panel, but I think

so much about the Psalm 139, 13, and 14. I'm

sorry. I'm sorry. I know it's been brought up

literally every week. So I'm sure you all have

heard it in the last month. But for you created

my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother's

womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and

wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful. I

know that full well. And I think we obviously

all identified with that because I think it's

like the most succinct thing about the like being

image bearers, right? And so I like think back

to how different I felt Always. And I didn't

know what that meant. I remember being attracted

to friends, but I didn't know that I was attracted

to friends, even when I was very little, and

then in high school, and then later. And I didn't

have the vocabulary for that, but I can trace

those things back to literally being six and

seven and that sort of thing. And I don't believe

that God makes mistakes. And then there's also

so little in the Bible, about queerness anyways

and those like those things that are that those

passages that do talk about it so rarely are

talking about love and connection and relationship

they're talking about non -consensual acts they're

talking about immorality they're talking about

um other things and adultery like they're those

clobber passages if you're familiar with that

term um which what an awful But, like, they're

not talking about the relationship and the identity

that we're talking about or that we identify

as. And so I think when something is mentioned

so little and also when it is mentioned isn't

actually what we're talking about, like, I think

it's hard to ignore us as part of that fearfully

and wonderfully made that God says we all are.

I think for me, it's been a little bit different

just because I guess my queerness is the more

church acceptable kind, right? Like people just

assume that you're choosing to be celibate. That's

a different thing. Like that's, this is not a

choice I have made. My high school years would

have been a lot easier if this were a choice.

But like, I think because of that, it's been

a lot less about how God thinks of me and how

I understand what my place is in the church.

like I've never doubted that God loved me I've

never thought that I'm going to hell because

of who I am but I have like growing up in that

place where you were supposed to get married

and have kids and raise them in the faith like

that was your whole purpose for being that's

the part that has had to change for me and I've

had to like grow and think of differently so

Riley kind of stole her thunder a little bit.

But I know that Kathy, you had a verse last time,

so I'm curious if you have one. And then I want

to give you the chance to share if you have insight

about that particular that you want to say. But

is there a place that you find yourself going

in the Scriptures that reminds you of what God

really thinks of you? And the reason we've asked

everyone this question is because all of us probably

need a place in the Scriptures to go to remind

us what God really thinks of us. Right? The world

is going to tell us what God thinks of us, and

even sectors of Christianity will tell us, well,

this is what God really thinks of you. And so

I'm curious if either of you have a place that

you go that reminds you what God really thinks

of you. I was thinking about this a lot. So when

I was on the panel for disability, I shared that

verse from Ecclesiastes about not being able

to make straight what God has made crooked. And

I think that applies here as well. In thinking

about it, for me, I get more comfort in looking

at the women in the Bible who weren't married

and had kids and did important things. So I was

thinking on the drive here about Rahab. She gets

a bad rap, but my goodness, was she really pivotal

to the story in which she appears, right? So

just kind of thinking about... how the value

of women is not necessarily tied to men in the

Bible, and we don't necessarily point that out.

But for me, that was something that was really

helpful. Let me jump in real quick. Anyone familiar

with the Dan Brown novel, The Da Vinci Code?

The conspiracy, and it wasn't real, it was all

fiction, but a lot of Christianity freaked out

about this idea that, oh, they're saying that

Jesus was married. to marry Magdalene. But there's

another side to that, is that it doesn't just

say, oh, well, Jesus was actually married. It

removes the idea that Mary Magdalene was valuable

in and of herself without having to marry Jesus.

That she could just be an important person in

the story of Jesus without having to be married

to him. And that matters, but we are also still,

not to go to last week, but we are such a male

-driven culture that we're thinking more about

the problem of Jesus being married than we are

thinking about the idea that it removes part

of Mary's story. So, did you want to say something?

No, you stole all my thunder. No, I mean, I genuinely,

I go to that verse just because I really do believe

if this all -knowing God, that is supposed to

be so good and has known me before I've been

knit in my mother's womb would just create me

to go to hell. I just don't think that that's

a good God. So that's why that scripture stands

out to me so much. So thanks for bringing it

up. And this next question is also a vulnerable

question. And it's not framed because on any

of these panels that we're looking for us to

share a story that somehow makes other churches

look bad because Every church has its issues.

Every church has things that they're working

through and that they're growing in and learning

how to be healthy about. But it's also important

for communities to hear about how either the

church as a whole or even our church has done

something that's been helpful or even if there's

something, this is probably hurtful and it would

be helpful if we didn't say things this way.

And so in your experience, have you felt more

othered or affirmed by Christianity or the church

because of your identity? And is there a story

you think would be helpful to share that goes

along with that? I can jump in if that's okay,

but I think just accepting people for who they

are. I know that sounds so basic, but, you know,

I just really think back to a church a while

back that, you know, my fiancee, who is a female.

we thought was our new home church and stuff

because they really seemed welcoming and affirming

and all that good stuff. And then the pastor

turned around and said, we need to have a talk.

We need to have the talk. And the pastor's wife

said, this isn't a breakup. Well, you know, again,

how I mentioned time, talent, and treasure, they

were very easily to take my treasure that I so...

you know, heartfelt driven because it was to

help a kid go to church camp. And I remember

that when I was a kid and how pivotal that was

in my faith. And okay, but we got to make sure

we're following the doctrine. You know, that's

what we were told. So I just, I don't know. I

mean, even if it's not your belief, you know,

even if you, I don't know, even if you don't

agree with LGBTQ -ness. Just really just taking

people for who they are is really what it comes

down to at the end of the day and appreciating

all of them and not just parts of them. Two things.

I like that you turned it into a new word, LGBTQ

-ness. So if you hear me say that, it's because

of you. The other thing is maybe we don't all

understand what you mean by treasure, but usually

what we mean by treasure in some churches is

that, like, well, you can give money. And for

me, my philosophy is that when you give money

back to God through the local church, that's

an act of worship. That's literally an act of

service and trust. And so I've always felt that

it's wrong for me to say, like, we'll take your

money, but you definitely can't be XYZ. And so

it creates problems. It creates this weird power

dynamic where, like, oh, yeah, give us all your

money. but you can't stand at the door and welcome

people. And so that becomes problematic. So either

of you have a, have you felt more othered or

affirmed by Christianity? And is there a story

connected to that? Yeah, I mean, I would say

I felt more othered overall, and not so much

here, but in a lot of churches that I've been

to. Either you are supposed to be a part of a

post -high school 20 -somethings ministry, which

is... truly a meat market, right? Like, M -E

-E -T. Yeah. And, like, that was not a priority

for me. And then, like, you know, I became an

adult, and I was going to work and doing job

things, and they were like, oh, you know, join

the women's ministry. I'm like, okay, I'll hang

out with women. Sure, why not? But every women's

ministry event was about being a good wife. about

being a good mother, about how we have the relationship.

And I'm just like, that's not my reality. I mean,

I love kids. I'm very proud that I helped raise

my nievelings. But I also, like, I'm glad I get

to give them back at the end of the day. And

I am happy with that. So, you know, to have every

event that I'm supposed to go to to be a part

of this community be related to being married

or being a parent, like, that just made no place

for me. I even went to a church once where the

very first day I visited, they were like, just

so you know, there's no one your age here. There

were four of us. Yeah, so I think some of that...

Scott, you're taking notes, right? Where's Scott?

We need to add that one. When people walk through

the door, make sure you tell them how many people

the same age as them there are. Yeah, you know,

it's a thing. So just not finding a place for

people who don't... fit your standard, regardless

of what that is, makes it really hard to be a

part of a church. Yeah, I mean, I have a story

very similar to Destiny's, where I had been attending

this church all through undergrad, and then I

moved back to the area where my parents and my

school were after COVID happened. And so I started

attending there again and wanted to get more

involved. And I've been a part of worship ministries

and music ministries pretty much since high school

and at different churches that I had been a part

of. And I was like, hey, I'm trying to get involved

in this church, would love to get involved in

this way. I had had a great relationship with

both pastors, but specifically the music ministry

leader pastor. um that church throughout the

four or five years that i've been attending and

um said hey i'm here more long term right now

would love to get involved and we had the talk

you know um which was like if you don't agree

with this doctrine you can't serve in a public

facing way but you know you can run sound if

you want you can you know those sort of things

you can help out in other ways but we can't have

you in a public facing position um because of

how you identify. If you were saying, this is

something I struggle with, I'm on a journey,

that would be a different story for them. But

that ended up, or that resulted in me leaving

that church ultimately and starting looking for

other churches. But yeah, then I found this one

literally the first day that I moved here. felt

very differently about, you know, obviously I

sing today and have been for three years, but

yeah, so yeah, very similar story, but yeah.

So to piggyback off of that, like what does it,

and maybe not even just for you, but for people

that you feel like are part of the LGBTQ -ness

community, what does it or would it mean for

you for a church to be the safest place? For

those people. And for you. I mean, I think it

really just comes down to putting us in those

spots of public facing. You know, I really, really

cherish that, you know, I'm able to help with

the kids. I know I've been really busy lately,

so this year's been really bad at that example.

But, you know, I mean. Here I'm fully accepted.

Like, it was no question to, you know, when I

proposed to Robin, hey, I'd really love to help

with the kids. What do I have to do? Okay, here's

some papers to fill out. Cool. You know, like,

this is truly the first place that I feel like

I can be myself. You know, when I'm here with

my fiancé, I can say, this is my fiancé, Beth.

She is great, you know, and people don't shy

away from it. Y 'all don't treat us any differently.

because we're in a same -sex, what's going to

be a marriage later this year? Shameless plug.

I mean, I think it means, like, so much to be

in a place that allows that and welcomes our

queerness in whatever capacity we're trying to

be involved and serve. And that, like... For

a long time, I felt like I'm supposed to help

teach whatever people in some capacity. And for

a long time, I thought that meant ministry. I

thought that meant whatever. And then when my

career started becoming sort of at the forefront

of the thought and studying that I was doing,

it was like, well, maybe I'm in an industry where

there's such a high percentage of... queer people,

people who have felt othered by the church in

other capacities. So I was like, maybe it's to

show them there is a way out of gayness in the

early times. But that same idea has remained

the same, just flipped. Maybe I'm all of these

things, and I'm in these industries, and I'm

in this church, and I'm in... I am gay because

I'm supposed to show people that you are not

othered by God. You are welcome. You've been

othered by the capital C church, not God, not

individual church communities. And so it's such

a blessing that I get to do that and that I get

to be a public -facing Christian in an industry

and in circles where that has like... the opposite

connotation of what it does in the larger community

and also get to be like a public facing queer

Christian in a capital C church where that's

not generally looked at greatly but I think it's

so intentional on God's part you know that fearfully

and wonderfully made and knitted together with

all of these things that are so important for

the like progression of this faith that has always

been a part of my life. I guess I'll just add

that many of us have strained relationships with

our families. My parents don't know. It's not

an uncommon thing for us to really struggle to

be fully ourselves in the home spaces. So having

a church family that will accept you as you are.

and be there for you is really important. So

I want to preface this next question because

I think that the different experiences that we

have open our eyes to what else is happening

in the world. For me, I really started learning

how to be anti -racist because my son was in

the hospital and our tech was a black male and

I was talking to him about what had happened

to Michael Brown in Ferguson. And things that

he was saying was causing me to see, like, we

were experiencing an affliction. And I was talking

to him about an affliction that was happening

to his community and people that looked like

him. And just having an affliction that I was

experiencing had opened my, I need to pay attention

to these other things, too. And what can happen

is that when you experience something personally,

sometimes it gives you, for lack of a better

word, it gives you a little bit of a superpower

to know how to care for people. especially in

that arena. And so the reason that every single

week we've asked these different groups of people

about how does the biblical teaching that all

people are created in the image of God shape

your understanding of your identity and inclusion

with the church is because they have carried

this their whole lives. Even if they've discovered

it and understood it in different ways in different

times, they have carried around the desire to

be loved and accepted by the people around them.

So that shapes. how they go, this is how you

could do that. And so I'm curious, as we hear

at the end of this series about the Imago Dei,

the image of God being in you from the very moment

that you were created and from the beginning

of time, all of us being created in the image

of God, how does that shape your understanding

of identity and inclusion within the church for

people in general? That's a big one. I mean,

I guess I've mentioned it a little bit before,

but I've always felt close to God. I've always

felt like I was supposed to be a practicing Christian.

That's why when I started thinking about queerness

within my faith, it started as a how to heal.

Because I was like, I know that my faith is...

So how do I get past this obstacle? And then

once I realized and started learning that this

wasn't an obstacle in way of my faith, but rather

in the way of community and my understanding

of my faith and the world around me. I feel like

that's really important because so many people,

I feel like, about any number of things are told

it's either or. Yeah. You either are this or

you have faith. Right. And these days you'll

hear the word deconstruction quite a bit. You'll

be like, oh, they deconstructed. Well, if they

know that God is going to love them and walk

with them and be with them no matter what, it

helps you go, okay, well, then my faith isn't

something I have to lose. Right. Yeah. And so,

like I mentioned, I went to a Christian school,

but I was studying theater. And so I was in a

relatively progressive bubble within my conservative

school. was the only, like, out person in my

circle, one of maybe two or three out people

by the time, like, I was a junior or senior in

the, like, larger school campus. And within,

like, six months of graduating, most of my friends

came out and started deconstruction, you know,

and very few of them are still engaged with faith.

And we, like, started at the same place. We came

from very similar backgrounds. And, but that,

like, was never even a thought in my mind. And

so, so I think it, like, you know, also it's

been mentioned, like, how do we fit into the

larger church community within groups? I, like,

have always wanted to be married, to have kids.

And, like, so the, like, celibacy idea was never,

never made sense for me. desires to have a family,

to whatever, to not be single, to be a dad, but

also this attraction to other men. You know,

like, why would these two things be true if we're

perfectly created? And so, yeah, I don't know.

End, I guess. However that wraps up. A Star Wars

just wipe. You just like, from one. Would either

of the other two of you like to share how that

biblical concept shapes your understanding of

your identity and inclusion of not just you but

others inside the church? Yeah, I guess I'll

share a little bit. I've been thinking about

this now for a while in kind of different pieces

and related to myself and related to others.

It's been my disabled queer friends who have

kind of helped me the most in kind of thinking

through what this means for me and what this

looks like. And we've been talking a lot about

God and the plurality of God, right? God is not

one thing. God is three in one. Father, Son,

Holy Spirit. Right. And, like, Son, like, Jesus

was born a man. But we have assumed God identifies

as a male, and we assume that the spirit is some

male -related thing, right? Because that's what

we have been taught traditionally. But, like,

there is nothing that indicates that God is,

like, I'm a he, right? God the Father doesn't

have a body. And so we kind of project this image

of, well, God has a body. God is a male. God

has everything that a male has. And it does shape

the way that we think about a lot of things.

As much as that is a cultural thing that needed

to be written in the scriptures to help people

understand what it was that was being presented

to them. Right. So, I mean, I guess for me, like,

if God created me in their image, like, maybe.

god's image isn't what we expected it to be right

like just kind of thinking about that differently

in the first place like we have you know art

that shows us what god might look like but um

no one's seen him and come back me like as i'm

imagining myself in the image of god i'm imagining

myself more widely i guess than i was before

because i'm thinking of god more expansively

yeah that's i'm gonna go ahead and jump to the

last one what do you think are some barriers

and when i say this i'm talking about us like

i don't just mean like the big church because

while some of us are going to end up moving or

or going going away to college or for whatever

reason some of us are going to end up not at

this church anymore and you're going to maybe

end up at other churches. And so while it has

applications that are broad no matter where we

end up in our lives, I'm more thinking about

us, for us as a family to hear from you what

you think. What do you think are some barriers

that prevent churches from being fully inclusive

of LGBTQ plus persons and their leadership abilities?

What do you think are practical steps that individuals

in our community can take to ensure that they

know that they are valued, heard? and embraced

i just keep thinking about you know just full

fully accepting and just loving us meeting us

where we're at too because there are so many

layers you know just like kathy had said with

having a strange ties to family relationships

and you know even some friendships and stuff

like that and i just i truly think like Okay,

maybe you might not agree with our lifestyle,

quote unquote, like people like to say, but,

you know, just accepting us for the goodness

that we want to bring. I mean, that's what we're

here for. We're all here to serve God. And maybe

we don't fit this cookie cutter, cisgendered,

you know, image of, you know, getting married

and having kids by a certain age and falling

in love with the opposite sex or whatever that

may be. Just we're here to serve God. right and

that's what we're here for at the end of the

day all of us should be um i guess i'll say do

your research that's the professor in me um but

i think like for me it was really helpful to

take some of those passages that i had grown

up with saying this is what's right and this

is what's wrong and look at them more fully in

context So when I was doing my exploration, I

asked a queer friend of mine, I was like, I keep

looking for things and all I keep getting are

the things I know I'm not supposed to read. Right?

Like when you do that search, like there's plenty

of stuff written about why you can't be queer.

And sometimes wading through that is really hard.

So I read God and the Gay Christian. And that

one was a really helpful one for me in terms

of like looking at those passages actually in

the context in which they were written and thinking

through some of those clobber passages that Bradley

talked about earlier. And I think just like if

you know you have that bias or you were raised

to believe that we're not okay, like spend the

time doing the work to see like. why that might

not be what everyone believes. Whether or not

you agree with it in the end is, you know, you.

But I think doing the work to kind of explore

that a bit more is a big one for many of us to

be able to feel more comfortable. And before,

I don't know if Bradley's going to share, but

I'll say, I have books, just, I just, not as

organized as Jen in the women's panel, like,

just bring out an entire library of books to

put about, but I have books that I can suggest.

And I'm also happy to have coffee with you and

explain my entire path of how I got to believing

what I believe. Because I was brought up very

conservative as well. And so there's a really

long path of how I got to the place that I am

in my understanding. Bradley, you have anything?

I mean, yeah. Would you like me to repeat the

question? I was literally just talking to Jen

before. I was like, I'm nervous. Yeah, I like

wrote essays, you know, so that I wouldn't just

stutter up here. But yeah, so I mean, you asked

about barriers. What barriers are there? And

I think like the... just the collective history

of anti -queerness in the church is a barrier,

even in, like, relatively affirming spaces. You

know, like, it is, like, counter what the, like,

larger church, what we have all, or not all,

I guess, but what most of us have been taught

within the church. It's, like, counterintuitive

of that to be affirming. And so there's also,

like, so many, like... regressions happening

socially right now socially and politically and

that sort of thing which affects the church you

know like the church and the state are so interwoven

right now in the country in which we live and

so like it's so hard when like the larger community

of our nation and hand in hand the like capital

C church are like speaking so so boldly against

queerness and talking about removing rights that

have been here and taking steps backwards. The

things that we can do as Christians, whether

you're queer or not, are to interact with the

queer people in your life in a real way. Support

queer programming, especially since they're being

attacked right now. talk to people about your

beliefs. We talk about so many other things that

we believe, talking with your other Christian

friends, talking with your queer friends about

what you believe about queerness within the church.

Discussion is important, allyship is important,

as with any sort of social movement. It takes

both the people who are in that experience and

the people who are outside of that experience,

but standing with them for for progress to happen

and for tradition to be broken and that sort

of thing. So this is a series that every once

in a while someone will ask me, like, how do

you come up with what you guys are going to talk

about? I have a document, it's a note on my Apple

devices, and when I have an idea for a series,

I write it down, or I'll ask Jen for an idea,

things like that, and we'll just write it down

and we'll figure out when it might fit. This

is a series... that I started talking about the

idea for this series three years ago. And part

of the reason was because our church is diverse

in more than just black and white. Our church

is diverse in a multitude of different ways.

And I knew that over the years, there's certain

things that get talked about a lot. And so I

knew that it was... It was going to be coming

time where we needed to talk about this subject

more directly. And two years ago, I put it on

the calendar, and then there was something else

that was going on, and I was like, we need to

talk about that instead as a church. And then

last year, it was going to be in January, and

I was like, we need to start this year talking

about this other thing. And if you look at the

graphic, I told you there's some secrets in that

graphic. Imago Dei happens to be spelled D -E

-I. And you have unknowingly been bamboozled

into a series about diversity, equity, and inclusion.

But that had nothing to do with what was happening

in the world. Because you can ask Jen, you can

ask Scott, like the people that are on the regular

teaching team. I said, hey, I think it's going

to be time for us to do this series like last

fall. I was like, it's going to be time for us

to do that series. And then it was like, all

right, I was going to start the Sunday after

Easter. And I was like, you know what, let's

actually use Easter as the primer. And part of

this is because we're going to have the most

people here to hear it. And see, like, this is,

we are all, we all bear the image of God. And

behind the word Imago Dei is the Father and Adam

reaching out their hands to each other. And the

word safe, safer and safest. And then the color

scheme is the trans flag. Like, the church needs

to learn how to communicate in so many different

ways that you can be safe here. And no matter

who you are, we want this church to be a place

that is safe for you. There's going to be people

that don't understand you. There's going to be

people that don't get why you feel the way you

feel. And that's why we always say that Jesus

is the central thing. I talked to another friend,

this was probably a year and a half ago now,

where a gay man had started coming to the church.

And I was talking to someone else about that

experience for that person. And they said to

me, I didn't know that it was possible for a

church to do this. And I said, well, what do

you mean? And they said, to be as affirming as

we are is to still be about Jesus. And that's

really what we're trying to do. to be open to

everybody, but for this still to be about Jesus.

We still value the scriptures. We still believe

in God. And we want to point people to God with

every moment that we have together. But holding

things loosely with our hands open, understanding

that there might be things that have been interpreted

because of culture. There might be things that

we don't understand. And there might be things

that... God has space for us to go, you know

what? We're going to walk into this believing

that we can do this by faith. So if you have

questions about any of the things that we've

talked about over the last four and five weeks,

feel free to email me. I'm not afraid of your

emails. Feel free to connection card me. Whatever

it is, I'm happy to talk to you about any of

these things as the lead pastor of this church.

I'm willing to discuss any of these things. But

let's make sure that we are moving forward as

a church with kindness. You may not think it's

okay for a woman to preach. You may have grown

up in an environment where interracial couples

were wrong. You may have grown up believing that

if someone is disabled in any way, it's because

they didn't have enough faith. And you may have

grown up being taught... that there is no room

whatsoever for a man to love a man, for a woman

to love a woman, or for someone to have no desire

for physical affection in that way at all. And

we are going to make space for it, for everybody.

That's the promise that we're making. Not that

we will never get anything wrong internally with

each other, or even from this pulpit, but that

we're going to try. Amen? Amen. Will you please

thank our panel for joining us today? Thank you.