Parashat Vayikra | Rabbi Roly Matalon & Reverend Dr. K Karpen | March 21, 2026

My heart

these days is expanding so big because I

have so much gratitude

for all my experiences and the blessings

of these 40 years. It's enormous

amount of gratitude

and one of the uh joys and the greatest

blessings

of my 40 years here has been the

relationship with the church of St. Paul

and St. Andrew

and in particular with the Reverend K.

Carpin.

He's been a friend and a partner and

this u relationship which

had started a number of years just a few

years after I started working here with

Marshall.

Um but it really was accelerated

by the coming down of our ceiling here

in 1991

which was probably the biggest blessing

in disguise

for this community and we moved in 1991

to the church of St. Paul and St. Andrew

at the invitation

of Reverend Carpin and at the time his

colleague the Reverend Ed Horn.

We are going to tell the story later

after kush.

But in brief

they said why don't you come and pray

here? We don't use the church on Fridays

and Saturdays. We only use it on Sundays

the sanctuary. We say it may take a

while. They said don't worry just come.

It took 26 years

and it was a wonderful wonderful

experience to be there. We are still

there on the high hol dayss and it's

always wonderful to return to that

beautiful place which holds

so many memories and also so much

holiness for everything that the church

there does

to improve humanity and to and give

to enhance

human dignity.

So I want to introduce my friend the

Reverend K Carpin who with whom we're

going to have a short dialogue.

K Carpin is the senior pastor of the

church of St. Paul and St. Andrew United

Methodist Church where he has served

since 1984. He holds degrees from

Cornell

and Union Theological Seminary.

His doctorate he has a PhD in Jewish and

Christian ethics. For the past seven

week seven years, Kay has been appointed

to community board number seven

comprising the upper west side of

Manhattan. So if you have any complaints

about sidewalks and

and he's a member of its preservation

committee and parks and environment

committee K served for many years on the

New York conference board of ordained

ministry and on the board of directors

of Westside campaign against hunger

which is housed in the church largest

food pantry in the city of New York. He

was a founding board member of

Methodists in New Directions. He has

taught at Drew Theological School and

Union Theological Seminary. He also

worked for 15 years part-time as a

chaplain to Columbia University and

prior to seminary K served as a fellow

on the Council on Economic Priorities, a

progressive nonprofit think tank. He's a

passion. He's passionate about

interfaith work and work with the poor

and marginalized and the possibility of

an inclusive church.

Some time ago I said to somebody, you

know, the Reverend K Carpenters, who was

that? I said, you know, the pastor of

St. Paul and St. Andrew. Oh, K.

So, here is K.

And when we started,

I had long hair

and he had short hair. Now he has long

hair. I have no hair.

Hello everybody. Hello dear friends. So

good to be back home here. It's been a

minute.

So Kay is uh recovering from a bout of

pneumonia.

>> So we're very grateful. He just went out

for the first time

in in a few weeks uh just a couple of

days ago. So uh we hope you're

recovering. you will soon be back to

your full strength.

>> Thank you.

>> And so very grateful that you're here

this morning.

>> I'm glad to have this to hold on to just

in case.

>> Uh K and I were studying together this

week, looked at the Torah portion, the

haftar, and we lifted up a section in

the haftar

which uh talks about testimony and

witnessing. You see in the Torah

portion, the Torah says that a person

who has a testimony to offer that could

resolve a case in court but withhold the

testimony, does not offer the testimony,

is guilty and has to bring a sacrifice

called asham. And in the haftar,

the prophet Isaiah also talks about

witnessing, not about witnessing in

court, but about witnessing God. He

says, "Do not be frightened. Do not be

shaken. Have I not from old predicted to

you, says God, I foretold and you are my

witnesses. Is there any God then but me?

There is no other rock. I know none.

You are my witnesses, says God. And so

the of course the connection to this

notion in the Torah portion is that we

can't withhold

testim testimony of God. God depends

on

being

um testified or

being witnessed. Yeah.

>> By human beings.

>> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's a

humbling thought. Um but maybe also

inspiring and it gives us some idea of

how to be in the world. um this idea

that

uh we we witness as we see who God is.

We try to experience who God is through

the wonders of the world, through other

people, through other other means,

through prayer. Um but that's not all

that witnessing implies. Uh to kind of

represent God, to be um a witness in

that out loud kind of thing. So, it's

not only about seeing God and knowing

God, but it's about saying something

about God and being something about God

that's worthy of who we come to know

that God is. I think it's a it's a

rather

radical concept, right, to think that

God depends on human testimony. I mean

the the midrash already an old midrash

uh says you are my witnesses is gone and

the midrash says if you are my witnesses

I am God. If you're not my witnesses

as it as it were I am not God.

>> Yeah in that sense I'm not God. Um you

were told telling me that the other day

it blew my mind. Um and yet there's a

reality to that. there's a reality to

that. So, it really is on us to to

witness God in the world in such a way

that people will

maybe know something about God and the

love of God and the deep compassion of

God when um by what we say about God and

and what we do.

>> I've been uh greatly and and you and I

uh were together in Israel with a BJ

group.

>> Yeah. You joined us back in 1995.

I believe it was.

>> We were just little children. Yes,

>> we were younger and it was a a really

powerful experience for us and the group

of BJ group that went to Israel and you

were you were a part to see Israel

through your eyes as a Christian person

as a person of faith. Yeah. in the

Christian tradition to see it through

your eyes to see the presence of God in

that land through your faith faith. It

was a powerful experience then.

>> I always refer to it as 70 Jews and me

in the land of Jesus.

It was it was it was lifech changing

though to be there with the BJ community

and with you and to experience things in

a in a very different way.

So, I've I've been uh I think many of us

have really really admired the work that

you and your colleagues Lee Matthews at

Horn at the time and other people and

the members of your community have done

with your church because I always felt

that your church that the way you

positioned your church St. Paul and St.

Andrew was really to testify to God's

presence in the world. everything that

you've done is was that the intention?

Tell us a little bit how

>> Yeah. Yeah. We just set out we're going

to show everybody what God is. So, no.

Um I think you know in some sense you

just try to follow the ways of God the

best way you can. I think we learned a

lot um frankly from you and from the BJ

community. Um I think I never understood

Jesus until you know deeply immersing

myself in uh in Jewish culture and

Jewish tradition

um for instance. But I think yeah I

think it is a responsibility. I think I

think our congre communities have at at

their core at their best have tried to

be that that witness for God and

everything. And I think when we came

together

in a way that for us, you know, because

we had the relationship already, we had

but um it was surprising to other people

that we would be sharing space and not

only space but program and community and

and be in each other's space and faces

and things like that. And um I think

that also was a witness that you know at

a time when it's it wasn't a natural

thing to do for outside for the world.

It was a time of you know huge division

not unlike you know today.

>> It was a time of great division in the

city of New York in the early 90s. But I

feel that um that uh that we were able

to witness together

and to expand in many ways to expand the

power of our testimony of God by coming

together.

>> Yeah. Yeah. People took notice, you

know, it was in the times. It was in you

know it was it was a thing at the time

that people were quite surprised about

but also I think for many quite

delighted to see that such a thing could

be

to learn from each other. I mean there

was one moment I remember you know

people say things we say things

sometimes we're not sensitive enough to

what we say and one time I said

something

and I thought from now on

I will not say anything that I will not

say in front of K. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No. Likewise

>> about Yeah.

>> religion, about Christianity, about

others, about the other.

>> I will not say anything that I will not

say in front of Kay. And it was a very

transformative moment for me because you

know, you say things, people say things

about Jews, about Christians, about

Muslims, about the others, about

>> Yeah. uh things that you hear and then

you you just

put out there without thinking.

>> Right. Right. Right. Right.

>> And I think that I think we've learned a

lot from each other. Both communities I

think learned a lot from each other what

it means to be neighbors and to be

partners

to look to look at the world together

from our faiths. with two Marshall used

to say we don't do here

>> promiscuous synratism

>> promiscuous synretism can hear the word

it was a very very important very

important thing

>> to to define that we were going to be

separate in our traditions and each go

deeper and deeper in their own tradition

we were going to partner where we could

partner and we would not do this

promiscuous synretatism

and I think it strengthens

>> it strengthen both of our communities to

be able to walk side by side in this way

to collaborate where where we could and

where we needed where was important to

collaborate and then at the same time to

be you to be more Christian has to be

more Jewish

>> and to testify and to witness God in in

these different ways you know because

the world now is

>> you have to do it my way it has to be my

way

>> so sad

>> so sad right it has to be my way and

here we say well there are multiple

paths and multiple ways to God. And

there are many different ways in which

to testify God and to w to to be a

witness of God in the world. If God is

God, God is much bigger than any

religion, any faith, any tradition. Much

much bigger and cannot be contained in

Judaism, cannot be contained in

Christianity, in Buddhism, Islam

>> and any ideology, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think our

witness together, you know, then brought

in other communities. I think of the

mosque of the Islamic Brotherhood and

some of some of the other imams and and

faith leaders that became kind of part

of our communication and community as as

a result. It was very powerful. Still

is.

It's been a a a great honor.

I get emotional.

>> Yeah.

a great honor and privilege to do this

together

and I hope our two communities will

continue to walk side by side and hand

in hand

as we do all the time with shared

programs and coming together in

important times for many many many years

to come.

>> Yes. At least 40 more. Yes.

>> Many more. We're 200 years old.

Yeah. Yeah. And we're 191. So, you know,

we're catching up. We're

>> talking to old folks here.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We look so young,

don't we?

>> So, thank you so much, my dear.

>> All right. Thank you, Roly. It's a

privilege to be here. Bless you.

>> We'll continue our conversation after

kush. Please stay for kdush and join us.

That's when you get the good