20260624 1 Samuel 4-6 Wednesday Bible Study Dave Dickmann

We're going to be looking at Judges chapter 4

Judges 4 · chapter mention

tonight. And, or I mean, I'm sorry, 1 Samuel.

1 Samuel chapter 4. And actually 4 through 7

1 Samuel 4 · chapter mention

is what we're going to read. Yeah. I hear you

there. of introduction. This is a kind of a story

within the story, but it's not accidental or

incidental to the bigger story. So this is the

story of the ark. What is it? The ark of the

covenant of God with the cherubim. Let's see.

Which the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord of

Hosts was dwelt between the cherubims from 4

-4. That's the full name. We just call it the

Ark of the Covenant. It's the story of that.

And it is the first of two stories that have

to do with Israel usurping the reign of God as

their king. The second one is in the... Is it

the 8th chapter or the 7th chapter where Israel

wants to select a king like the nations all around?

So the author deals with this particular attempt

to usurp God's authority. And then he deals with

the next one later on. But as we read this, we're

going to take most of our lessons tonight, I

think, from chapter 4. I don't know how much

time we're going to spend on 5 and 6 after tonight.

So that's why we're going to read them all. So

1 Samuel chapter 4. And the word of Samuel came

1 Samuel 4 · chapter mention

to all Israel. Now Israel went out against the

Philistines to battle and pitched beside Ebenezer.

And the Philistines pitched in Aphek. And the

Philistines put themselves in array against Israel.

And when... They joined battle. Israel was smitten

before the Philistines, and they slew of the

army in the field about four thousand men. And

when the people were come into the camp, the

elders of Israel said, Wherefore hath the Lord

smitten us today before the Philistines? Let

us fetch the ark of the covenant of the Lord

out of Shiloh unto us, that, when it cometh among

us, it may save us out of the hand of our enemies.

So the people sent to Shiloh that they might

bring from thence the ark of the covenant of

the Lord of hosts, which dwelled between the

cherubims, and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and

Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant

of God. Now when the ark of the covenant of the

Lord came into the camp, all Israel shouted with

a great shout, so that the earth rang again.

And the Philistines heard the noise of the shout.

They said, What meaneth the noise of this great

shout in the camp of the Hebrews? And they understood

that the ark of the Lord was come into the camp.

And the Philistines were afraid, for they said,

God has come into the camp. And they said, Woe

unto us, for there hath not been such a thing

heretofore. Woe unto us, who shall deliver us

out of the hand of these mighty gods? These are

the gods that smote the Egyptians with all the

plagues in the wilderness. Be strong, and quit

yourselves like men, O ye Philistines, that ye

be not servants unto the Hebrews, as they have

been to you. Quit yourselves like men and fight.

And the Philistines fought, and Israel was smitten,

and they fled away, and they fled every man into

his tent. And there was a very great slaughter,

for there fell of Israel thirty thousand footmen.

And the ark of God was taken, and the two sons

of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were slain. And

there ran a man of Benjamin out of the army.

and came to Shiloh the same day with his clothes

rent and with earth upon his head. And when he

came low, Eli sat upon a seat by the wayside

watching, for his heart trembled for the ark

of God. And when the man came into the city and

told it, all the city cried out. And when Eli

heard the noise of the crying, he said, What

meaneth the noise of this tumult? And the man

came hastily and told Eli. Now Eli was ninety

-eight years old, and his eyes were dim that

he could not see. And the man said unto Eli,

I am he that came out of the army, and I fled

today out of the army. And he said, What is done

there, my son? And the messenger answered and

said, Israel is fled before the Philistines,

and there hath been also a great slaughter among

the people. And thy two sons also, Hophni and

Phinehas, are dead, and the ark of God is taken.

And it came to pass, when he made mention of

the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat

backward by the side of the gate, and his neck

break, and he died. For he was an old man and

heavy, and he had judged Israel forty years.

And his daughter -in -law, Phineas' wife, was

with child, near to be delivered. And when she

heard the tidings that the ark of God was taken,

and that her father -in -law and her husband

were dead, She bowed herself and travailed, for

her pains came upon her. And about the time of

her death, the women that stood by her said unto

her, Fear not, for thou hast born a son. But

she answered not, neither did she regard it.

And she named the child Ichabod, saying, The

glory is departed from Israel, because the ark

of God was taken, and because of her father -in

-law and her husband. And she said, The glory

is departed from Israel, for the ark of God is

taken. And the Philistines took the ark of God

and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod. When

the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought

it into the house of Dagon and set it by Dagon.

And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow,

behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the

earth before the ark of the Lord. And they took

Dagon and set him in his place again. And when

they arose early on the morrow morning, behold,

Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground

before the ark of the Lord. And the head of Dagon

and both the palms of his hands were cut off

upon the threshold. Only the stump of Dagon was

left to him. Therefore, neither the priests of

Dagon nor any that come into Dagon's house tread

on the threshold of Dagon and Ashdod unto this

day. But the hand of the Lord was heavy upon

them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them and smoked

them with emeralds, even Ashdod and the coast

thereof. And when the men of Ashdod saw that

it was so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel

shall not abide with us, for his hand is store

upon us, and upon Dagon our God. They sent therefore

and gathered all the lords of the Philistines

unto them, and said, What shall we do with the

ark of the God of Israel? And they answered,

Let the ark of the God of Israel be carried about

unto Gath. And they carried the ark of God of

Israel about thither. And it was so that after

they had carried it about, the hand of the Lord

was against the city with a very great destruction.

And he smoked the men of the city, both small

and great. They had emeralds in their secret

parts. Therefore they sent the ark of God to

Ekron. And it came to pass as the ark of God

came to Ekron that the Ekronites cried out saying,

They have brought about the ark of the God of

Israel to us to slay us and our people. So they

sent and gathered together all the lords of the

Philistines and said, Send away the ark of the

God of Israel and let it go again to its own

place, that it slay us not, and our people, for

there was a deadly destruction throughout all

the city. The hand of God was very heavy there.

And the men that died not were smitten with emeralds,

and the cry of the city went up to heaven. And

the ark of the Lord was in the country of the

Philistines seven months. And the Philistines

called for the priests and for the diviners,

saying, What shall we do to the ark of the Lord?

Tell us wherewith we shall send it to his place.

And they said, If ye send away the ark of God

of Israel, send it not empty, but in any wise

return him a trespass offering. Then ye shall

be healed, and it shall be known to you why his

hand is not removed from you. Then they said,

What shall be the trespass offering which we

shall return to him? They answered, Five golden

emeralds and five golden mice, according to the

number of the lords of the Philistines. For one

plague was on you all and on your lords. Wherefore

ye shall make images of your emeralds and images

of your mice that mar the land, and ye shall

give glory unto the God of Israel. Peradventure

he will lighten his hand from off you. and from

off your gods, and from off your land. Wherefore

then did ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians

and Pharaoh hardened their hearts, when he had

wrought wonderfully among them? Did they not

let the people go, and they departed? Now therefore

make a new cart, and take two milk cows, on which

there hath come no yoke, and tie the kind to

the cart, and bring their calves home from them.

and take the ark of the Lord, and lay it upon

the cart, and put the jewels of gold, which he

returned him for a trespass offering, in a coffer

by the side thereof, and send it away, that it

may go. And see if it goeth up by the way of

his own coast to Beth Shemesh, then he hath done

us this great evil. But if not, then we shall

know that it is not his hand that smote us, it

was a chance that happened upon us. And the men

did so, and took two milk cows, and tied them

to the cart, and shut up their calves at home.

And they laid the ark of the Lord upon the cart,

and the coffer with the mice of gold, and images

of their emeralds. And the kind took the straight

way to the way of Beth Shemesh, and went along

the highway, lowing as they went, and turned

not aside to the right hand or to the left, and

the Lord to the Philistines went after them unto

the border of Beth Shemesh. And they of Beth

Shemesh were reaping their wheat harvest in the

valley. And they lifted up their eyes and saw

the ark and rejoiced to see it. And the cart

came into the field of Joshua of Beth Shemite

and stood there, where there was a great stone.

And they claimed the wood of the cart and offered

the kind of burnt offering unto the Lord. And

the Levites took down the ark of the Lord and

the coffer that was with it, wherein the jewels

of gold were, and put them on the great stone.

And the men of Beth Shemesh offered burnt offerings

and sacrifices the same day unto the Lord. And

when the five lords of the Philistines had seen

it, they returned to Ekron the same day. And

these are the golden emeralds which the Philistines

returned for a trespass offering unto the Lord.

One for Ashdod, one for Gaza, one for Ashkelon,

one for Gath, one for Ekron. And the golden mice,

according to the number of all the cities of

the Philistines, belonging to the five lords,

both of fenced cities and of country villages,

even unto the great stone of Abel, whereon they

sat down the ark of the Lord, which stone remaineth

unto this day in the field of Joshua the Beth

Shemite. And he smote the men of Beth Shemesh,

because they had looked into the ark of the Lord.

Even he smote of the people fifty thousand, and

threescore, and ten men. And the people lamented,

because the Lord had smitten many of the people

with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth Shemeth

said, Who is able to stand before this holy Lord

God, and to whom shall he go up from us? And

they sent messengers to the inhabitants of Kirjath

-Jerim, saying, The Philistines have brought

again the ark of the Lord. Come ye down, and

fetch it up to you. And the men of Kirjath -Jerim

came, and fetched up the ark of the Lord, and

brought it into the house of Abinadab. That's

the story then of the Ark of the Lord. Hopefully

you're at least somewhat familiar with the story.

I'm sure we're familiar with the Dagon falling

down before the Ark of the Lord. We talked about

that a little bit when we looked at Judges. It's

odd, kind of, because what? We've been building

up and anticipating the life of Samuel. And then

right here, right when all of Israel knows that

Samuel is a prophet, that he received the word

from the Lord, then we switch gears and we hear

about the ark of the Lord. Does anybody have

any idea why that would be? What are we intended

to see from this story? What's the biggest picture?

I would say the leaving of the presence of the

Lord. The leaving of the presence of the Lord.

That's definitely one lesson here in the story.

Well, in the context of the Bible, who is the

main character? In the context of all the individual

books of the Bible, who is the main character?

God. And even here in this, even in the story

of Ruth, who's the main character in the story

of Ruth? Is it Ruth? No, it's God. And so even

here, then, we are reminded that Samuel is not

center stage in his own story. But at the center

of the stage, at the center of the story, is

God. Now Samuel occupies whatever off -center

stage. I don't know, I'm not an actor, so I don't

know what that is. But the center of the stage,

the spotlight, is always on God. And so what

is God telling us about himself in the story?

Okay. That's true. Yeah, I think we can phrase

it that way. How would we phrase it specifically?

Israel came out to meet the Philistines, right?

And they were going to defeat them in battle.

That's the first chapter, right? The second chapter,

that is what? God doesn't even go out to meet

them in battle. They just carry God through their

land and what happens? They're defeated. They

die one after the other. So not only will God

not share his glory with another, but what? God

doesn't need men. God doesn't need beings. God

alone can accomplish his purpose. He chooses.

to use means. He chooses to use men, not because

he's weak and not because he has to, but because

he has chosen to do that, to glorify himself.

But without the aid of men, God is able to travel

through the entire Philistine nation and slew

thousands of men, wreak havoc upon their cities,

and declare to them and manifest to them that

I am God Almighty. And I will do and go where

I please and no one will stand in my way. Now

that is a lesson for us. God doesn't need you

and he doesn't need me to do his work. He has

chosen and called us and instructed us to do

that. And we ought to be eager to do that. It

is a great privilege and an honor to be able

to glorify God in that way. is not limited in

what he can do by whether or not a man or a woman

or a person will or can do what he's called them

to do. I always think of lots of stories, especially

in the Middle East, where people are given visions

of Jesus and are called by God to believe in

Jesus. They don't have a whole bunch of people

out there working. I've heard those types of

stories even here in the States. And one of the

things that I always have to question is why.

Why was it that God had to use a vision to speak

to this person? And the answer is maybe, and

at least I have to consider maybe, somebody didn't

go when God called them. But God wasn't going

to allow this one to pass from this life to the

next, and so he intervened and went there. God

chooses to use us. And he calls us to be his

ambassadors. He calls us to declare his gospel

out in the world. He calls us to do all kinds

of things here in the church. We all have responsibilities.

Whether we like those responsibilities, whether

we shirk those responsibilities, has no effect

on whether or not God has given us certain responsibilities.

And if we don't do those responsibilities, if

we don't do what God has called us to do, God

will still accomplish his purpose, though he

will do it in ways, that are unpleasant, at least

for us. This was unpleasant for the Israelites.

Now, they started off, right? They asked a good

thing. They went out to battle. Well, first we're

told that what? Samuel had the word of the Lord.

He had his word that he was their prophet. Did

they go to the prophet and say, what should we

do here? They didn't, did they? They just went

out. And then when they were defeated, they asked

the right question. What did they ask? Why did

this happen? Now we know the answer because we've

just read the story. So you tell me, why did

it happen? The sin of Hophni and Phinehas. Okay,

so God had declared that Hophni and Phinehas

were going to die on the same day. And this battle

accomplishes God's purpose in that. It proves

that God's word is true. What else? Oh, and that's

why they were defeated. So what's the lesson?

Okay, so God insists that we not only do things

his way, but we do it according, or we do not

only what he tells us, but we do it in his way.

God's way for all of Israel was for them to come

to him and ask. Remember that's what he told

them at the beginning of... Of judges. They said

what should we do. And who should go first. And

God said Judah will go first. Go up. And every

time that they asked God. He had an answer for

them. Whether it was Moses in the wilderness.

Whether it was the patriarchs back in Genesis.

Whether it was Joshua. And all through the book

of Judges. And now here in Samuel. But they didn't

consult God. They didn't care what God had to

say. They just went. Why were the Philistines

raised up? Okay, God was going to use them to

judge Israel. So that's why they defeated Israel

then in judgment from God. And then why was the

other reason that God raised up the Philistines?

We've already said it. To demonstrate his independence

from man, to demonstrate that he didn't need

men in order to accomplish his good and his perfect

purposes. In this case, judgment upon Israel,

the removal of his presence, And the continuing

defeat of the Philistines. What do you got? Why

did they bring the ark out there? What does that

tell us about the way that we relate to God?

What do we call that in our day? Okay, there's

definitely presumption in it. No, it was definitely

not a good thing. Okay, God had told them to

carry the ark when they traveled around Jericho,

right? Carry the ark in front and follow behind

it. And then I feel like in this story it was

more of a talonsman or like kind of a good luck

charm in a way for them at this point. It really

wasn't. They really didn't seek God in the right

manner nor was his presence there. So it was

just kind of a good luck charm to them. Like,

oh, the ark's here. We're definitely going to

prevail. But why did they assume they would prevail?

Because in the past, when the ark of the Lord

was in the different places, they did. Right?

Well, I think they, yeah, I mean, God had instructed

them before to do that. So what were they trying

to accomplish here? Why did they take it out

there with them? Okay, and so they were going

to, why did they think they would win? Was it

because they thought it was a magic box? Or what

were they claiming was at stake when they carried

that ark out there? God's glory. God's name.

They were saying to all of it, let's take this

ark out there because if God is out here in the

front of the army, we can't lose. Why? Because

we're going to Tie God's very name. To this battle.

By setting this ark out here. Now what's that

called? An M word. M A N. Manipulation. They

were manipulating God. God won't give us his

word. God won't tell us to go. We don't know

why we haven't go. We're going to manipulate

God. We're going to force him to do what we want,

because if he doesn't, then his name is going

to be cast in a bad light. Now that's what was

at the heart of it. And manipulation is always

wicked, whether it's from one person to another,

or certainly in the case of God, where... The

Israelites were attempting to manipulate God

to do and to get what they wanted, which was

victory over the Philistines. Samuel never told

them to go out. They did not consult him. That's

right. They didn't consult Eli. Eli was obviously

not happy that they were taking the ark out there.

It seems obvious. Although he didn't do anything

to stop it, but maybe he did and the word is

not told. Are there two different meanings when

it's saying the ark of God and then the ark of

the Lord? No. It's referred to as all... Why

would it? I'm just curious. Well, the full name

is there in verse 4 that I read at the very beginning.

The ark of the covenant of the Lord of hosts

which dwelleth... Between the cherubs. I don't

have. I don't think it's significant. But it

could be. And I would be willing to hear from

somebody. That thought it was. I guess I'm kind

of interested in the, you said that they were

supposed to consult God before they went up,

and you talk about the judge at the beginning,

but if the command was for them to eradicate

those, you know, all these man -minds that grew

up on the land, then why would it have been necessary

for them to consult God to do what he told them

to do? Like, I feel like we've talked in the

past about that. You don't need to, Well, just

because God gave them a general command to subdue

the land doesn't mean that he doesn't want to

be consulted in the particulars of how that's

going to be carried out. And all throughout Judges

and all throughout their history, they had always

consulted God. Is this the time? How do we do

it? You remember all the weird battle tactics

back in Judges. That was God that was behind

all that stuff, giving instruction to the generals.

This is how it's to happen. So the text is pretty

clear that when it says that in the first verse,

the word of Samuel came to all Israel. All Israel

knew. that Samuel was the spokesperson for God.

That what Samuel said could be understood as

the word of God to them. So it wasn't a question

that they didn't know, or they didn't, it was

that they didn't care. That's essentially it.

Remember, the story is that they don't want to

have a king, right? They don't want to have God

as their king. It's interesting that the... The

plural is used by the Philistines, the gods of

Israel. What does that tell us? Is that just

a misunderstanding by the Philistines? They didn't

understand that Israel really was a monotheistic

nation that only had one God? No, it's just an

observation of the obvious truth that there isn't

one God in Israel. They worship the God of the

covenant. The Ark of the Covenant, they worship

Baal, they worship Astaroth. They have all these

gods. So that really is at the heart of why they

didn't consult God, because God wasn't their

king. He wasn't their only God. He was one of

many that they consulted and that they talked

to. And that was what, in chapter 7, that's what

Samuel tells them to do, right? Turn back to

the Lord. So they don't turn to the Lord. They

don't much care what the Lord has to say. Are

we all clear on what manipulation is? I'm surprised

nobody else wanted to talk about that. Is that...

I mean, I think it's... It's... It's always,

to me at least, it feels like it's always right

there. So essentially they weren't testing to

see if God would hold up his name? No, they were

saying, okay. Okay. Let's think of it just in

human terms. I need something from you. Maybe

I need a loan of money, whatever it is. I go

through all this planning. I make all these commitments.

And then I come to you after I've already made

all these commitments, all these plans, and everything

is done. And I say, I've made all these commitments

and plans. I don't have any money. I need you

to give me a loan. Now, why did I do that? Why

did I come to you first? Okay, and so rather

than come to you first and say, hey, I want to

make these plans, I want to do this thing, will

you loan me the money? What I do is I put the

pressure on you. If you don't do this, then you're

really not going to be a good friend to me. You're

really not going to, and everybody's going to

know that you're not a very good friend. So whatever

manipulation is involved, you always feel pressure.

That's what they were doing. They were putting

the pressure on God. Now how, I mean, that is

just, it's exceeding wicked. It's something way

beyond that. To think that they were going to

put God in a pickle. They were going to make

him feel the heat because they wanted to get

something out of the situation. People do that

to us all the time. Hopefully we don't do that

to them. Hopefully we're very careful with how

we relate to people and with how we try to lay

forth an argument of what we believe. We don't

do it by hiding facts or telling half -truths.

That's why advertising is always manipulative.

They're going to tell you all the good things.

Even with prescription drugs. I mean, they spend

the whole commercial and they tell you all the

great things. And then what? They flash in tiny

little letters on the screen and here's all the

side effects. And you get the brochure and the

side effects are longer than the good things.

Now, why? Why is that? Because they're afraid

that if they just tell you the whole truth and

nothing but the truth, that you're going to say,

yeah, I don't think I want to risk that. I think

I'll just try something else, maybe a natural

remedy or whatever. But in our everyday dealings

with people, we, if we're not careful, will be

manipulating. And it doesn't matter if the person

is swayed by the manipulation or not. The manipulation

has occurred. And it's dishonest, and it is...

It's bad. Have you ever had somebody tell you

they're an expert at something? Why would they

tell you that? Well, I'm an expert, so of course

you will have to agree with my opinion. What's

the point? It's to manipulate you. It's to get

you to say, oh, well, then I must agree with

this person. Now, we can do that without even

thinking about it. But that's not what does God

call us to be. What is it that will set you free?

The truth. The whole truth and nothing but the

truth. Now in our dealings with other people,

in our dealings one -on -one, what are we interested

in? The truth. Let's establish the facts. You

and I can agree on the facts. We may not agree

with what is required of us after we have agreed

on the facts. But we can agree that here are

the facts. And then we can have a discussion.

I believe that the implication of these facts

is this. I believe that because of these facts,

we should do this. But if I just come to you

and I say, well, I'm an expert. Of course you'll

believe and do what I want. That's not the truth,

is it? That's not the way that God deals with

you, and that's not the way that God deals with

me. He lays forth the truth. He tells us exactly

who we are. He tells us exactly who he is. And

then not only that, but he applies that truth

for us. Because you are this, then you ought

to do this. Now how do we see this played out,

this manipulation of God? How do we see it played

out in our day in the church? Well, that would

be, I mean, we've all heard of a revival meeting,

right? Yeah. Okay, so I think that's kind of

what you're talking about. We're going to announce

it. We're going to have a revival. We're going

to announce ahead of time that God is going to

work in some kind of saving way, in some kind

of miraculous way among these people here. And

then we have the meeting. So what are we doing?

If we engage in that kind of thing, what are

we saying? Well, if God doesn't save some people,

then we've claimed the name of God, we've claimed

that we've heard from God, and we've had these

meetings, and nobody is going to, certainly God

is not going to allow that to happen. He's not

going to allow his name to be soiled by not doing

what we said he was going to do. What else? Seed

faith. Seed faith. We're going to manipulate

God. In our DNA, just in the way that we think

about God. What about, I think this is, you want

to give us a definition of seed faith? Okay.

Now you can take that here. Well, God has made

certain promises to me. I'm his child. What?

He's promised he's going to put clay. He's told

me not to even worry about tomorrow. Don't worry

about the clothes that you need to wear or the

food that you need to eat. Right? God has taken

upon himself that obligation, right? He said,

I'm going to provide what you need in these physical

areas of your life. And so we say, well, since

God has promised that, then I'm going to go ahead

and do this. Maybe I'm going to be risky with

my money and make some risky investments or whatever.

But God is obligated to take care of me. So I'm

going to manipulate God then, which will allow

me to do what I want to do, and I'm still not

having to risk anything really, even the physical

well -being of my person. That's an attempt,

that is a manipulation of God. Now God, the consequences

of that are what? Difficult for you. The chasing

hand of the Lord will come upon you. You will

reap what you sow. But that is a manipulation

of God. That's totally different than faith.

Completely different than faith. Faith says what?

What has God called me to do in this particular

circumstance? And if God has called me to this,

then I will trust him to do what he's promised.

So I'll be generous with my money and I'll give.

I'll do whatever. And if I lose my job tomorrow

and I have no more money, I'll trust God to provide

for me what I need. That's faith. What about

in the church? What? The church gathers together.

God's told us to gather together. But he's also

told us how to gather together. He's also told

us how to conduct a meeting. He's told us what

should happen in the meeting. It's an attempt

to manipulate God when we... say, well, this

part we're not going to do, but we are going

to gather together. We're not going to have anything

to do with this prayer meeting thing. The church

doesn't really need to pray. We don't need to

make that a priority. We'll just manipulate God

to meet with us when we come together. Or, how

about this? God's name is on the church. God

has told us how business ought to be conducted

in the church. Who's in charge, in other words,

the polity of the church. He's given us clear

instructions there. But how many churches have

a board that consists of a president, a vice

president, a treasurer, and a secretary? And

we will give to them the responsibility to lead

and to direct and to make decisions in the church.

without ever any consideration of whether or

not they're elders. We'll just take that authority,

but we will manipulate God to meet with us because

we've got his people together here, but we're

not going to do things his way. That is a manipulation

of God. That's saying, bless us, be faithful

to your church in spite of the fact that we are

not going to do things your way. Anybody want

to disagree with me? But I have to throw something

out there. Okay. Does manipulation have to be

intentional? Because it seems like it kind of

matters a little bit. Like, you know, you've

got a random big church where they have the Lord

and whatever, and that's not good. People who

talk to me know that I kind of make a big deal

about modern church polity. But, like, that's

not to say there's no Christians there at all.

Maybe the people making decisions are just clueless.

The question then would be, why are they clueless?

Is that just because they don't have any way

to get a clue? Or have they said, I'm not interested

in getting a clue? Well, I'm not going to speak

for anybody, so I can't tell you what anyone

else is thinking for sure. Well, I'm not asking

what they're thinking. What I'm saying is, is

it possible that a person says, I want to do

things right? Well, there's lots of people that

want to do things right, who go to what we all

say are wrong conclusions, like all Presbyterians,

right? They all want to do things right. Well,

they consult the Word of God, and they come to

certain conclusions. We disagree with the conclusions

that they've come to. But they don't believe

that any of the conclusions they've come to are...

the word of God. They believe God has commanded

them to conduct their polity in this way. Okay,

so that's totally different than somebody that

says, well, I don't have a clue. Okay, well,

I guess I should have phrased myself better.

Then take the person who has studied the Bible

and they think the Presbyterian church polity

is the way to do it. Even though I think that's

frankly kind of ridiculous. Would that still

qualify as manipulation? No. Because they're

attempting not to manipulate God, but they're

attempting to submit to God. Yeah. Again, I'm

not sure where you get the conclusion from the

Bible that a big Baptist church with four is

the way to do it. If that's possible, then I

guess that wouldn't be manipulation either if

you consulted the Bible and tried to figure out

the best way to do stuff. I know. I'm not being

dismissive of your question. It's a good question.

To me, what your question started with, does

manipulation have to be a conscious effort on

purpose? And my answer to that is no. I don't

think it has to be. It can just be a habit. So,

you know, if I am in the habit of manipulating

people everywhere I go to get my way, I don't

even realize I'm manipulating them after a while.

But I do think in the case that you're siding

with disagreements over doctrine or the Bible,

then it's a question of what's the motive. Is

this person actively attempting to glorify God

in everything that they've done? And are they

doing it in a way that is informed by the word?

And are they taking the posture before God that

I am submitting to your will in this way? Okay.

Anything you want to say on that? Goes right

along with this argument or with this discussion

is the discussion of the glory of God that's

left Israel. What does that mean? Well, in the

strictest literalist sense from the word, what

it meant that the ark was the presence of God

and it was gone into Philistine territory. It

was no longer in Hebrew or Jewish controlled

territory. So in that way, it had departed. In

our day, though, we don't have, obviously, the

Ark of the Covenant of the Lord where the presence

of God is. What we do have, though, is God within

us. We have the experience of walking with God.

Can that be interrupted? Yes. Okay, and how is

that interrupted? Sin. Okay. What's the solution?

What's that? To repent of sin, which means what?

To be sorry for what you've done before the Lord

and to turn away from the sin and what? Towards

God's way. So our experience of God, our experience

of the presence of God will be interrupted by

sin. It can be interrupted, what, by known sin.

I know that God has told me to do this, or I

know that God has told me not to do this. But

I'm going to either do this or not do this, contrary

to God's instruction. When I get to that point,

that's a very, I can't expect to experience the

love of God should have brought in my heart so

long as I am. Going against his direct instruction

for my life. Right? We all in agreement there?

When you say interrupted, you're not saying that

the Holy Spirit can depart from you, correct?

No, that's why I said the experience from God.

The experience of the presence of God. It's interrupted.

How would that manifest itself in our lives?

Surely we've all had that experience. Emptiness.

Emptiness. Doubt. Conclusion. About. Your salvation.

Okay. You're doing the right thing. That's a

big deal. The joy just gets sapped out of you.

But not only known sin, unknown sin. I've been

in this habit. I'm clueless, as Jake says. I've

read the Bible eight times, but I've missed this.

I've probably missed it because I'm biased, because

I want to continue to do the thing that I'm doing,

but I haven't realized that it's a sin. That's

unknown. And God lets us know. And so then what

happens? When we're joyless, when we're questioning,

what do we do? Why, right? We ask the question,

why is this the case? I can find all kinds of

scripture that tells me about the joyful Christian

life. It tells me about what it's like to walk

side by side with my Lord and my Savior. To know

what it is to be certain and to just feel the

love of God in my heart. Why is this calling

for me? That's the right question to ask, right?

And in the case of the known sin, the answer

should be obvious, shouldn't it? And the answer

is just like what Jake said. I've got to repent

of this thing. This thing is sapping all the

joy out of my life. I've got to deal with it.

As hard as it is, as difficult as it is, as hard

as it is for me to look at myself as this, that's

where I am. And I'm not willing to... keep on

on that trajectory in my life. I've got to repent.

I've got to turn back to God. In the case of

the unknown sin, you may have to get what? You

may have to go to, hopefully, a bosom friend

and brother, sister, and say, what? This joy

is sapped out of my life. I've checked, and I

can't see any known sin in my life. I don't think

that I am purposely rebelling against God in

any kind of way. Is there something that you

see in me? Is there something that is a red flag

about me to you? And hopefully your friend, even

though it will hurt, will tell you the truth.

Not manipulate you, but just tell you the truth.

This is what I see. This is what I would suggest.

Seek the Lord in this area. It's also possible

What's the last way that our experience of God

is interrupted? Well, that would be sin. That

would be a known sin. No. I would say it's when

God... Brings us into a difficult circumstance.

A trial in our life. And we. Get overwhelmed

by that trial. And we lose sight of God. What's

God teaching us in that? He's there. But we haven't

made the time. And we haven't fixed our faith

on him. In that difficult circumstance. Difficult

things to do. Maybe our life is busy. Maybe the

pressures of providing for a family. Or. The

pressures of this, that, or the other thing in

our lives. Legitimate. And they're real. I'm

not dismissing them. I'm not saying they don't

exist. But they crowd us out. And we don't say

I'm not going to spend time with God. We don't

say I'm not going to account for God in this

particular stresses in my life. But the stresses

and the pressures just overwhelm us to the point

where God seems far away. And what's the solution

then in that circumstance? Own the difficulty

and look to him to give you the strength that

you need to be faithful amid the trial. The presence

of God left Israel. Is there any hope in that

circumstance for them? No. There's no hope for

us when the experience of God in our lives is

gone. The only thing to do is to cast yourself

upon the Lord in that circumstance and say, show

me your way. Get me back on the right track.

I want to do what you want me to do. Restore

unto me the joy of your salvation. Well, you're

asking if a devil or a demon can oppress a Christian

in what way? What's the solution if that's the

case? So you're saying that here's a Christian.

He's doing what the Lord's called him to do.

He's doing things the way the Lord called him

to do. He's in his daily activity of repentance.

And he is in the word. He's doing everything

he's supposed to do. And then the devil comes

to him and whispers in his ear some accusation.

And you're asking them if he will give in to

that in that circumstance. What's the devil going

to accuse him of? I would say that the person

that is well grounded in the scripture and is

well grounded in a life of repentance, a life

of faith, If the devil comes to you and says,

you're not good enough, what's your response

going to be? It's not about me, is it? I'll agree

with you on that. That's what the Christian would

say. I agree. I'm not good enough. It's not based

on my goodness. It's not based on my good works.

My relationship with the Lord is based on his

work for me. What happens is we give way to sin.

We rebel against God and we give an opportunity

to the devil. We give power to sin. That's what

happens. I'm going to give myself over to this

thing because I'm refusing to submit to the Lord.

I don't want to. I want to go do things my way.

I don't care what the Lord has to say. And we

give opportunity to sin. And then the devil comes

in and he says, you're right. You shouldn't feel

this way. You're right. Why is it? Well, how

could this possibly be wrong? Doesn't it feel

right? Maybe the devil manipulates other people

around you to feed right into your sin. But the

well -grounded Christian walking close to his

Lord in faith, living a life of repentance is

I don't believe is going to have an opportunity

for the devil to come in and interrupt his relationship

with the Lord. There's no opportunity for the

devil in that circumstance. The devil takes the

opportunity that we give to him. So yeah, if

you're not a man of prayer, if you're not a man

of the word, if you're not a man of repentance,

If you're not a man of anything else that God

has called you to be, what you're doing is giving

opportunity to the devil to come into your life

and to just make the power that you've given

sin in your life a total wreck. He will cause

you to exponentially give yourself over to sin.

I do believe that. But he's not the source of

it at the very beginning. That has to do with

where you are with the Lord and how you deal

with sin in your life and how seriously you take

the word of God in your life. I mean, if a devil

comes to you and starts to whisper in your ear,

you run to the Lord. You run to him. You don't

give them opportunity. You don't try to talk

to them. You don't have a reasonable conversation

with it. You just run to the Lord. I'm cast upon

you. Can you remove this influence from me? Because

I only want to be influenced by you and by your

Holy Spirit. Minister your word to me as I read

it. Minister your love to me as I pray. Give

me strength to walk in faith in the things you've

given me to do.