20260722 1 Samuel 8 Wednesday Bible Study Dave Dickmann

Before I read the chapter, does somebody want

to give us a synopsis, a summary of what we're

reading? Of chapter 8. Samuel's getting old and

his sons are not that good and people... Want

to have a king? And Samuel's like, well, if you're

going to get a king, then here's what you're

going to do. And they said, we don't care. We

want a king. Okay. All right, so let's read it.

And it came to pass when Samuel was old that

he made his sons judges over Israel. Now the

name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name

of his second, Abiah. They were judges in Beersheba.

And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned

aside after Lucre, and took bribes and perverted

judgment. Then all the elders of Israel gathered

themselves together and came to Samuel unto Ramah,

and said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and

thy sons walk not in thy ways. Now make us a

king to judge us like all the nations. But the

thing displeased Samuel when they said, Give

us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto

the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken

unto the voice of the people, and all that they

say unto thee. For they have not rejected thee,

but they have rejected me, that I should not

reign over them. According to all the works which

they have done since the day that I brought them

up out of Egypt, even unto this day, wherewith

they have forsaken me, and served other gods,

so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken

unto their voice, howbeit yet protest solemnly

unto them, and show them the manner of the king

that shall reign over them. And Samuel told all

the words of the Lord unto the people, and asked

of him a king. And he said, This will be the

manner of the king that shall reign over you.

He will take your sons and appoint them for himself,

for his chariots and to be his horsemen, and

some shall run before his chariots. And he will

appoint him captains over thousands and captains

over fifties, and will set them to ear his ground

and to reap his harvest and to make his instruments

of war and instruments of his chariots. And he

will take your daughters to be confectionaries

and to be cooks and to be bakers. And he will

take your fields and your vineyards and your

olive yards, even the best of them, and give

them to his servants. And he will take the tenth

of your seed and of your vineyards and give them

to his officers and to his servants. And he will

take your menservants and your maidservants and

your goodliest young men and your asses and put

them to his work. And he will take the tenth

of your sheep and ye shall be his servants. And

ye shall cry out in that day because of your

king which he shall have chosen you. And the

Lord will not hear you in that day. Nevertheless,

the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel,

and they said, Nay, but we will have a king over

us, that we also may be like all the nations,

and that our king may judge us and go out before

us and fight our battles. And Samuel heard all

the words of the people, and he rehearsed them

in the ears of the Lord. And the Lord said to

Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them

a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel,

Go ye every man unto his city. So it's just as

Jake prepared us. We have what a king is. We

have the people asking for a king. We have the

Lord instructing Samuel to give the people a

king. And at the beginning of it all, we have

Samuel, who has appointed his two sons to be

judges, and they are wicked judges. So before

we get into whether or not or how we should understand

their request and what a king is, what do you

guys think about Samuel appointing his sons to

be judges? And why is that part of the story?

Was that a good thing? Was it a bad thing? Was

it a right thing? Or was it a wrong thing? And

people said, what about a kingship where it's

passed down to their sons? That's a good idea.

It seems crazy. And I don't know. I mean, I guess

it seems like it's a bad thing. Because Eli did

the same thing, kind of. Were his sons considered

judges? I thought they were. No. No, they were

priests, though. Oh, they were priests. But I

don't know. Yeah, if he knew his own kids, then

he would have known that they weren't that good

of guys. That seems like poor judgment. Well,

was there any history in Israel of a judge appointing

his sons to be judges after him? They wanted

Gideon to be a king and to appoint his sons,

right? And what did Gideon say? He said no. So

the tradition in Israel, I guess if we want to

call it that, would be the people say, we like

you, why don't you become a king and appoint

your sons after you? And the judge says no. Why

Samuel did it? Why did he? We don't know, do

we? Did Moses appoint some judges to help him

out? Well, they went to the elders, and they

heard the cases, and he took the hardest ones.

I thought he had planted some relatives of his.

Well, Jethro was his father -in -law. And he

helped him judge. No, he told Moses to. You've

got to have some help. Well. Why is it in the

story? Anybody give any thought to that? Why

is Samuel appointing his sons part of this story

of how kingship comes to Israel? So you think

Samuel appointing his sons should have caused

the people to reasonably do what? So let's get

rid of these two judges. Okay. is the succession.

That's the thing that I was wondering about when

I was reading this. What's really the difference

between what they were asking? They wanted a

king instead of these judges. They want a king

so he can fight their battles for them and so

he can judge them. That's what the judges were

doing. They were leading them into battle and

they were judging them. What was special about

a king? They didn't want to have to wait for

a judge to kind of rise up and be recognized

as a judge? Well, I think one thing, there's

a distinction between earthly kings and the judges

in Israel. What is that distinction? And who

really was leading them into battle? God. Okay.

So that's really the distinction. It may look

like the judge is leading them in battle, but

what the judge is doing is he's following the

one who's going before them, which is the Lord.

And so when they rejected, when they asked for

a king like other nations, what they were asking

for was a king to be their God, essentially.

They were tired of God going out before them.

They wanted to have a physical, earthly... King

who would go out before him as far as the judging

goes I think yeah, I think in Canaan there was

a lot of judging that I mean There's only one

authority in a kingdom I Don't know if you guys

are aware of that, but if you have a king he's

the only person in the entire Kingdom who has

any authority everybody else's authority is derived

from him So whatever he says goes. So, I mean,

even if he appoints judges or whatever else,

it's his authority that rules in those cases.

Now, in the case of Israel, all of the judging

that the judges did or that the priests did or

that the Levites did was derivative from what?

God's authority as written down in their covenant.

scriptures right so i think that's yeah i mean

i think when we were in judges we and maybe it

was way back when we were looking at kingship

uh in the in the uh when we were going through

the covenants what there's all kinds of overlap

between you know the role like a prophet a priest

and a king they all do something what do they

all do They all teach. So they all are supposed

to, and the king is supposed to what? Do you

guys remember? Does he just store up the memory

of the covenant in his head? Well, before he

can read it, what's he supposed to do? Write

the whole thing down and have it right there

by his side and then teach the people. So that's...

Totally different than the tradition around them

in Canaan. How did they view their earthly king?

The Canaanites, the Philistines. How did they

view their king? Well, was he just a man who

was born into the right family? Okay, he was

a deity. So, I don't know if you guys do any

kind of history reading or whatever, but you'll

see it everywhere. I mean, well, just think of

Nebuchadnezzar. I mean, he's in the Bible. Think

of Pharaoh. Those weren't just men. That wasn't

King George living in Egypt. That was God to

the Egyptians. And he reflected... Everything

about his God was embodied in him. He's kind

of like the Pope. So if you're a Catholic, what?

Whatever the Pope says is the word of God, right?

He can't speak nothing wrong. And whatever he

says must be done. That's kind of how it is for

an earthly king in Canaan. So now you know where

the tradition comes from in the Catholic Church.

Straight from the land of Canaan. So when they

were rejecting then the kingship of God, or when

they requested a king to go out before them and

win their battles, that's why God says they're

not rejecting you, Samuel, they're rejecting

me. Why did God allow Samuel to appoint his sons?

Everybody think about that. Was that part of

God's plan? Or maybe Samuel kind of snuck around

and God was busy somewhere else. He didn't notice.

To me, that's the providence of God. That's God

working. He's sowing, or he's not sowing, but

he's allowing discord in the whole nation because

of Samuel's irresponsible and probably I mean,

we're not told that God told him to. So, if God

didn't tell him to and he did it, what's the

only reasonable conclusion to come to? It was

sinful. And God allowed that to happen in Israel

so that what? Okay. So, who gave any thought

to that? Was it God's plan to have a king in

Israel? An earthly king? Jake says no. Jake says

yes. Who else? Nobody else? I say it was part

of the plan. Okay, it was going for part of the

plan. You're going for part of the plan. We're

talking prescriptive or descriptive. Because

I say it's stupid. Okay, well, you can expound

on that. Well, I say that... You know, we talk

about God, the will of God, like what God says

for us to do. And in no way was it what God was

telling them to do and was his command to them

what they ought to do. They were doing the wrong

thing by picking a king. But was it all part

of God's eternal sovereign plan, working out

his eternal purpose? I mean, everything is. But

this, you know, you see it. We have a king. We

have King David. And we have a picture of Christ.

Christ being this king that we rule forever.

And all those things are worked out through this

providence, through things working in this way.

So in that case, I would say, yeah, it was part

of that. So it's part of God's plan in the sense

of everything that happens is part of God's plan.

Well, yeah, but even in a greater sense than

that. Part of his plan of redemption, I think,

is tied in with having a king that would point

forward to another king that would come after

David. Christ. So you're saying that it is, well,

what's your position? Are you saying it's descriptive

or prescriptive? Because I thought you were saying

it's descriptive first, but now it sounds like

you're saying it's prescriptive. Well, I'm just

right in the middle. Walking the fence. Who wants

to jump on one side or the other? It can't be

both. Descriptive and prescriptive? Well, that's

the wrong term for it, right? Because we talk

about the different wills of God or whatever.

This is what we're told to do and also what God

works out, as he works out his purposes. I don't

think that's, I think descriptive and prescriptive

is the wrong. Well, you're saying like when God

gave the promise to Abram and to Sarah, that

kings would come from them. Is that, you're saying

that... That that was just God telling them what

was going to happen in the future. It didn't

have anything to do with whether or not he wanted

to have a king in Israel. Are you saying that

that's not God's prescriptive will then? Is that

what you're saying? because I think that when

we have here, God is telling them, or through

Samuel, he's telling them, you don't want to

have a king. They're rejecting him by going to

the king. Did God want them to reject him? I

can't go that far. Well, no, God isn't the author

of sin, and he never would cause somebody to

sin. Okay. Well, first of all, yeah, I think

one of the reasons we read through the whole

chapter was to see 19 and 20. Or to see 20...

Yeah, to see 19 and 20. It wasn't only that they

wanted a king so that they would be like the

other nations. They wanted to be like all the

other nations. So that's where Chris is coming

up with his, their heart had already left God.

Their heart wasn't with God. Did anybody read,

and we're not going to come up with an answer

yet to Brian's question, but I haven't forgotten

it. Did anyone read Deuteronomy chapter 17? Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy 17 · chapter mention

17 is an interesting chapter, not only for the

verses there, but just for the whole, everything

that goes before it, before we get to the part.

In what, verse 14? Yes. Deuteronomy 17, 14. When

thou art come unto the land which the Lord thy

God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt

dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king

over me, like all... like as all the nations

that are about me. Thou shalt in any wise set

him a king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall

choose. At the beginning, I think, here's the

way that if we want to talk about how God intended

or how God instructed Israel to bring about kingship.

At the beginning of the chapter, you have this.

Anybody whose heart wasn't with the Lord, they

were cast out of the camp and they were killed.

So the people were then, within Israel, were

all keeping God's covenant. We'll just use that

term. Their heart was with the Lord. And they're

listening to the Lord. If a judge, you know,

that's why the next section comes up, where you're

going to take your case to the judge, or whatever

the judge says. That's what you're going to do.

Why? Because you're submitted unto the Lord.

And so in that context then, when it comes time

for a king and you say, we want to have a king

like all the other nations, you do it in this

context of our heart is with you. And we want

you, talking to the Lord, to choose the king

that's going to rule over us. And he's going

to rule over us in the sense that he's going

to teach. He's going to judge according to God's

word. Now that's how I understand Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy 17 · chapter mention

chapter 17. Amanda, what did you think when you

read it? Did you think that it was just prophesying

something that they were going to do that was

sinful? Or did you understand it as God saying

this is okay as long as you do it the right way?

something that would be sinful like the Lord

allowing it because it was part of his biblical

plan but I also was I always thought that there

was a command or something where he told them

not to want a king he was their king but I couldn't

find that I was just doing like some google searches

and I was like is it just this like first Samuel

8 where we get that idea where he says like you're

rejecting me and so I I was a little bit, you

know, whatever, thinking that maybe I hadn't

been thinking of it right to think that he, under

no circumstances, really wanted them to have

a king, even though he was going to allow it

as part of his plan. Okay. I had read this before

I tried Google searching all that, so it was

with that in mind. Okay, good. Is there a verse

where he tells them, like I've been reading through

the law just in my daily reading, and I haven't

come across it there that I remember, but is

there a place that he says, like, you shall not

have a king, I'll be your king, that you know

of? I could just find things like in Psalms where

it might declare him our king or like one verse

in Isaiah, one in maybe like Zephaniah, but it

wasn't him saying like, I'm your king, do not

take another king. But it was... Well, God always

presents himself as the king. Okay. And that's

where we get the concept of theocracy. Right.

So it's not, I mean... So that brings up the

question then, is it an either or proposition?

Do we either have a theocracy with prophets,

priests, and judges? Or do we have a theocracy

with king, prophets, and judges? Or kings, prophets,

and priests? Do we have to choose one or the

other? Or do we have, if we... Because even in

God's way, there were always priests. And, I

mean, Moses was a prophet, so we can include

prophets in that, in God's original design for

the nation. So is it an either or? Once a judge

comes on the scene, that was God's doing. We

know that, right? God raised up a judge. So it

was still a theocracy. The judge, what? Ruled

and judged according to God's word. So the judge

didn't displace God as king. So is it possible

that there could be a king who would not displace

God as king? Seems like it. Why? Because there

are a lot of ungodly kings. Well, they would

displace God as king. Right. So we would have

to find a godly king who would not displace God

as the king. Is there such an example as that?

Is it possible for God to be king and there to

be a human king over Israel at the same time?

And we know that because there were godly kings

whose heart was after the Lord, who spoke forth,

taught, The Lord's word. And rule according to

the Lord's word. Give me somebody. Give me an

example. David. Okay. Let's go all the way back

now to Genesis. We're going back in time. What

was Adam? How was he going to exercise dominion?

Remember God told him to go have dominion. How

was he going to do that? So how was he going

to do that? And how were his descendants going

to either carry on that tradition under Adam

or how were they going to come to know what the

Lord's will was? Now you guys do remember when

we talked about dominion, when we were going

through the coverage, right? I'm assuming everyone's

hands are shaking. I'm not going to look up.

Well, how did God equip Adam to be, to exercise

his dominion? Well, what does Genesis tell us

that he gave him? How was he made? How about

that question? He was made from the dust in God's

image. Now, what did we say that meant? It allowed

communication between him and the Lord. I want

to call it the communicable attributes of God

he gave to Adam. The big picture is what? He

knew what the Lord wanted him to do. So the Lord

didn't just say, here's a man, go do whatever

you want. Go by instinct or go by feeling. See

what your gut tells you. flip a coin. He didn't

give him any of those resources, did he? He gave

the sure resource of a revelation to Adam, and

he said, now, go forth into all the world and

exercise this dominion. So, Adam, that was the

first king, right? Remember that? The first king.

The king in all the world. And he did, he exercised

that kingship and that dominion, Under the authority

of his God. And he exercised it perfectly. Because

he understood perfectly. Everything that the

Lord had instructed him to do. And he didn't

have any sin. That would get in the way. Of him.

Performing or doing. What the Lord had told him

to do. That's God as king. With his. Earthly

king. Vice regent. If we want to call it that.

You read theological books, that's what they'll

call it. You come across it. God is king, and

then you have this sub -king, who is Adam. And

he rules according to God's word. So when we

come, then we get to Abraham, or we get to Noah,

and Noah has the same thing. Then we come to

Abraham, and then we come to Israel. And you

get this... If you just think of the big picture

of Israel going forth out of Egypt into the land

of Canaan. If you think of Israel as one person,

what was that one person doing? That's a biblical

concept, just so we're clear. God says that Israel

is my son. So there it is. So Israel, as a nation,

is what? They're going forth and they're conquering,

they're subduing the earth, right? So as a whole,

under God's leadership, and as his people, they

look just like a king. They look just, they're

doing just what Adam was supposed to be doing.

When they go into Canaan and they wipe out all

the chaos, they wipe out everything that is not

conformed to the will of God, is gone. And now

Israel, his son, and his people, they dwell in

the land that God has conquered or that they

have conquered under the power of God. So my

answer to Brian's original question is that I

think it is, I think God never commanded them

to have a king. They didn't have to have a king.

But God put everything in place and he intended

for there to be a king in Israel because that

king in Israel was going to foreshadow or prophesy

of Messiah King, Jesus. So we know that it was

part of God's plan. My own personal opinion about

the way that they went about it here in Kings

is what Chris said, that their heart was far

from the Lord. They had rejected the Lord. They

didn't want him to rule over them. The Philistines

were a thorn in their side. They'd been going

through judge after judge after judge, and there

was no discernible difference between the time

they first came in and the first judge was raised

up by the Lord and the time of Samuel when the

last judge was raised up by the Lord. Israel

was in the same state of affairs. Even Eli has

been, you know, priesthood is gone and his judgeship

was left in a shambles. And yet still Samuel

appoints his sons in that context. So the Lord

was bringing about kingship, but what did the

people want? What kind of king did they want?

We all know who Saul was, right? Which meant

what? What was unique about Saul? Does anybody

remember? How much taller was he? From his shoulders

up, he was taller than anyone else in Israel.

Now, did anybody go back and read part of Hannah's

song? In the beginning of 1 Samuel. Now, one

of the things I may not have mentioned when we

look at this is when you read it, you get this

expanding picture of what's going on. So we start

with a whole bunch of eyes as Hannah thanks the

Lord and praises Him. And then it gets a little

bit bigger. In the sense of Israel. And then

it gets really big. In the sense of the ends

of the earth. I guess. We'll just read the whole

thing. It's too good not to. Hannah prayed and

said. My heart rejoices in the Lord. My horn

is exalted in the Lord. My mouth is enlarged

over my enemies. Because I have rejoiced in thy

salvation. There is none holy as the Lord. There

is none beside thee. neither is there any rock

like our God. Talk no more exceeding proudly,

let not arrogancy come out of your mouth. For

the Lord is a God of knowledge, and by him actions

are weighed. Okay, so remember, if the nation

of Israel had had just that part in their mind,

the Lord is a God of knowledge, and by him actions

are weighed, then they would have been able to

say, just give us the king that you want us to

have. The bows of the mighty men are broken,

and they that stumble are girded with strength.

They that were full have hired out themselves

for bread, and they that were hungry have stopped

being hungry, so that the barren hath born seven,

and she that hath many children is waxed feeble.

It's the Lord that kills and makes alive. He

bringeth down to the grave, and he bringeth up.

The Lord maketh poor and maketh rich. He bringeth

low and lifteth high. He raises up the poor out

of the dust and lifteth up the beggar from the

dunghill to set them among princes and to make

them inherit the throne of glory. For the pillars

of the earth are the Lord's and he has set the

world upon them. He will keep the feet of his

saints and the wicked shall be silent in darkness.

For by strength shall no man prevail. The adversaries

of the Lord shall be broken to pieces. Out of

heaven shall he thunder upon them. The Lord shall

judge the ends of the earth, and he shall give

strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of

his anointed. So, we've already read this, we've

already thought about it together on a Wednesday.

Who here would think then that the tallest, strongest,

Most handsome person is probably the one that

the Lord is going to choose to rule over his

people. Is that the impression you get from reading

that? What do you get the impression? It's probably

going to be somebody on the dunghill. Some poor,

weak, hungry guy who's just got nothing. And

that's the one that the Lord's probably going

to raise up, and he's probably the one that's

going to rule over Israel. What did the people

want? They didn't want the guy from the dunghill,

did they? They wanted the good -looking, tall,

strong, strapping young man who could go out

in front of them and battle. Does anybody think

it's ironic that who were they fighting? Who

was the representative of the Philistines? Goliath.

What was unique about Goliath? He was really

big. He was really strong, wasn't he? So Israel,

what did they say? That's what we want. We want

our own Goliath. We want that guy to go out and

fight in front of us. Somebody that we can see.

Somebody that we can appreciate. Somebody that

will rally the troops and make us feel good.

We don't care about anything else. That's what

we need is a hero. We need our own Achilles.

We need our own Goliath. We need somebody that's

like us, only bigger and stronger. It goes completely

contrary to exactly what Hannah's prayer teaches

us. So that's why I would say that this was a

wrong, they didn't have, they didn't inquire

of the Lord anything. They never submitted to

the Lord and said, just give us the man of your

choosing. Whoever you choose will be good enough

for us. If that had been in their heart, probably

Jake is right. I think that's what he said. They

would have just said, let's get rid of these

two scoundrels just because they happen to descend

from Samuel. And let's ask the Lord to raise

up a godly judge. Let's ask the Lord to raise

up a godly priesthood that's not like Eli. That's

probably what would have happened. Does that

seem reasonable? Just not. They wanted to be

like all the other nations. They wanted to have

a king that would go before them instead of the

Lord that would go before them. Alright, well,

we can finish the discussion next week unless

somebody, we can finish tonight with anything

that anybody else wants to say. If you did some

prep work and you want to say something, now's

your chance. It's more of an inquiry. Is this

the same, this idea of God raising up a man in

the will of nature, is that the same idea that

we have about God raising men up in a church

to lead a church? You know what I mean? Instead

of having someone, and this may be a distraction,

it probably is, but I was just thinking of God

raising up men inside the church to lead the

church rather than having someone come from outside.

Is that... Well... Do you understand what I'm

saying? Yeah, but they... I mean, I haven't been

to seminaries, so I'm not defending seminaries.

I'm certainly not defending seminaries as an

institution. But that doesn't mean that God's

man couldn't have gone to a seminary somewhere,

right? It doesn't mean that... God's man couldn't

have gone to a seminary and been part of the

congregation and God raised him up. Right. I'm

not specifically singling out people coming from

seminary. Right. Well, that's usually where they

come in. Nobody says, hey, I was picking up garbage

in Tucson. I'm in St. Louis now. You want me

to pastor your church? Yeah. The key would be

What do you want? What does the congregation

want? Do they want a lettered man, or do they

just want the Lord's man? That's where the stories

would, and that's where we can make personal

application to that. Do I want what the Lord

wants for me, or do I want the Lord to change

to get so that I can get what I want? That's

what the people were saying. If you're going

to be that kind of a God who's going to go before

us and do all these things, we don't want that.

We want you to change and give us the man that

we want and guarantee our success. So that's

for us if we want to apply it very personally,

that's how we do it. If we want to apply it in

the church, that's how we would do it there.

We don't care if a man has letters. Great if

he has letters. The brightest, most intelligent

person that's ever lived. He can be a great pastor

if he's the Lord's man. Amen. We'll be back in

chapter 8. Then we'll finish chapter 8 next week.

And maybe we'll bleed into chapter 9. We'll see

what goes on with questions.