20260729 1 Samuel 8 Wednesday Bible Study Dave Dickmann

Chapter 8. As far as I can remember, we had two

outstanding questions. They were outstanding

in every sense of the word. And they are outstanding.

We have yet to answer whether or not the Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy 17 · chapter mention

chapter 17 was simply a prophecy that there would

be a king or if it was God's endorsement or part

of his plan that there would be a king in Israel.

And then the second question I think that we

still have yet to answer was whether or not it

was... or how it was wrong or sinful for Israel

to ask Samuel for a king in 2 Samuel chapter

2 Samuel 8 · chapter mention

8. Am I right? Is that what we had left to answer,

I think? Okay. So I'd like to answer those, but

I would like to answer them as we move through

the chapter. So last week I threw it open to

anybody that wanted to have anything that they

had. thought about while they were preparing,

and so that invitation remains the same today,

but we'll just bring it out after each section.

So let's read the first five verses. Yeah, let's

read the first five verses of chapter 8. And

it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made

his sons judges over Israel. Now the name of

his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second,

Abiah. They were judges in Beersheba. And his

sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside

after lucre and took bribes and perverted judgment.

Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves

together and came to Samuel unto Ramah and said

unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons

walk not in thy ways. Now make us a king to judge

us like all the nations. And I think I said this

two weeks ago, that this is one of the hardest

chapters in Samuel to really understand what

is being taught, what the problem was, exactly

where the people's thought was, and to tie it

all together with all the rest of the predictions

of prophecies of kings, and we look at David.

So I think there is some... I think if we leave

with some tension in our thinking as to what

exactly was going on here, that's okay. It's

okay with me. I don't think we have to tie everything

into perfect little knots and tie up every single

loose end. So what was the problem with Samuel,

and why did the elders of Israel go to Samuel?

Why did, was it wrong, we said this I think last

week, was it wrong that Samuel appointed his

sons to be judges? And the answer we said was

yes. We said it was wrong. So why did the elders

then of Israel go to Samuel and demand a king

of Samuel? Yeah, but there was no other judge

that functioned in a way that would appoint or

establish a government. Well, somebody answer.

Who else would do it? God would do it. So, rather

than... No. When God appointed the judge, he

just appointed the judge. There was no succession

in judges. God established what? He established

the priesthood, which included the Levites. He

established the prophets. He established the

judges. So he didn't have any problem instituting

new... or forms of government in Israel. So why

didn't the people go to the Lord then? That's

the question. Why didn't they go to the Lord

to establish a king rather than going to Samuel?

Why did they go to Samuel? Well, he established

a dynastic judgeship. That's why they went to

him. Apparently, they assumed that he had the

authority to establish a government in Israel.

And that's exactly what he did, right? When he

appointed his sons to be judges, it was either

going to be their sons after them that were going

to continue to be judges, or his sons were going

to appoint someone else in some other family

or some other person to be a judge. So the entirety

of this first part of the chapter points to the

fact that Samuel was just totally out of line

with where God had intended for the, For the

nation to be. And how he intended to establish.

A dynasty in Israel. If that was his intention.

He eventually did that with David. It was David's

family. That was going to. Only David's family.

That was supposed to be kings. In Israel. So

what's the lesson for us there? Well it's really

important. That we. Especially when it comes

to any kind of an exercise of authority that

we do so under the authority that God has given.

So if God had said to Samuel, appoint your sons,

it would have been fine. He should have made

that public. God has told me to appoint my sons

to be judges. It's not my authority that I'm

doing this. I'm doing what God has instructed

me to do. The lesson there also in understanding

this whole chapter and really this whole time

in Judges is that who was judging Israel? Was

it Samuel that was judging? Was it Barak who

was judging? Okay, so behind the judge, the judge

or the prophet, the priest, all that they were

doing was voicing, was vocalizing the voice of

God. Whether they had gotten that in their scripture

or they had received a revelation directly from

God, it was always God that was speaking to the

people. Samuel went around that, and so the people

came to Samuel to go around God to establish

a king in Israel. That's my take on this first

part, these first five verses. Anybody want to

comment on that, disagree? Bring something else

up. Right. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying

that they would have or wouldn't have. I'm saying

he gave the opportunity in doing what he did.

And then it's like that Samuel not remember or

learn anything from that. And then he kind of

does the same thing, like just appoints his son

to ride just because they're his son. Surely

he knew they weren't walking in his ways. It's

just interesting. Yes, it is. All right, then

let's read this next section, starting in verse

6. But the thing displeased Samuel, the people

asking for a king displeased Samuel when they

said, give us a king to judge us. I think that's

really interesting, too. They don't say give

us a king to rule us. They say give us a king

to judge us. And we saw that a lot of the judges,

they kind of looked like kings in what they did.

But it's interesting that they would phrase it

in that way. And that's why I think Samuel took

it as a rejection of him, and that's why it was

a rejection of him, but it was a rejection of

the Lord more than that. And Samuel prayed unto

the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken

unto the voice of the people, and all that they

say unto thee. For they have not rejected thee,

but they have rejected me, that I should not

reign over them. According to all the works which

they have done since the day that I brought them

up out of Egypt, even unto this day, wherewith

they have forsaken me and served other gods,

so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken

unto their voice, howbeit yet protest solemnly

unto them, and show them the manner of the king

that shall reign over them. What was wrong with

the request? Have we come to a conclusion there?

Say that again. It's been God appointing the

judges, God appointing Abraham, Moses, all the

people before, but now it's reversed because

Samuel appointed his sons without confirming

or asking God what he should do, even though

he was established by God himself, not following

even the way he had been established, but now

the people are like, oh, Samuel appointed himself

for his sons. I guess that's what we need to

do. Okay, so that is, and that's right. That's

one reason. They didn't go to God. They didn't

even ask Samuel to go to God and see if this

was the time to establish a king in Israel. They

just went and demanded of Samuel that he appoint

a king. What else? So what does that tell us

about them? He said their hearts were far from

the Lord. That's true. God calls us to be set

apart and holy, right? We're to be a set -apart

people, set -apart for the work of the Lord.

And that puts us at odds with what? 90%, 95 %

of the people that we come in contact with every

day. We are the weirdos in the eyes of the world.

And that is uncomfortable a lot of times. Everybody

at your place of work. They want to celebrate

whatever. This is how we're going to celebrate

it. And you have to say, I'm not interested in

that at all. That's not fun. I won't be there.

And then what? They all look at you like you've

got two heads. What's wrong with you? There's

this underlying need or feeling that we all have

from time to time to just be normal. To just

not stand out. I used to hate it when we would

go to these family camps and you had to sit around

in a circle and introduce yourself to a bunch

of strangers. One thing I couldn't remember anybody

else's name. It didn't really matter to me that

this person was however old or whatever. You

just kind of want to go along and do your thing.

Maybe that's necessary. Whatever. I'm just saying.

When you're in a crowd, what? Unless you're dying

to be the center of attention, you just kind

of want to get along with everybody and just

kind of meld into the crowd and not stick out

like a sore thumb. But that's not possible for

Christians. You're going to stick out like a

sore thumb if you're going to faithfully follow

the Lord. There's no question about that. Israel

was very uncomfortable with that, apparently.

We want to be like everybody else. Here we are

in the middle of Canaan and we've got all these

kings around us and all these different kinds

of governments. Can we just be like them? Can

we just not stick out like a sore thumb amongst

all the rest of the people in the world? So that's

why we know that their heart was far from the

Lord. They weren't willing to... Stand there

and bear the ire of everybody around them. They

were tired of it. They were tired of God. We

want to be done with that. We just want to be

like everybody else. What else? Well, is there

any kind of a... Did anybody get any sense of

a request here? Did they ask Samuel, would you

make us a king? They just demanded it. It's like

this spoiled little kid. Give us a king. We want

a king. And that's just what, I mean, that's

what my Bible says. Does anybody's Bible give

them any indication that this was, they were

making a request of Samuel? No. So nowhere in

all of scripture is there anyone that makes any

kind of a demand upon God or upon his prophet

on the scene. You don't get to demand of God.

We don't, he doesn't, and nobody in history or

in the future ever will make demands of God.

But they didn't seem to have, I mean, the audacity

of the whole thing. And God, what does he say?

This is just in line with everything that you've

done since I brought you out of Egypt. Just like

every other time. You're leaving me for another

God. And then in their demand was that they wanted

it now. Not only are we demanding this king,

but we're demanding him now. Again, I mean, it's

really, whether or not God intended to bring

kingship to Israel is beside the point entirely

here because the way that they went about making

their demands and what they wanted made any kind

of, made it really impossible for God to bring

kingship the way that he intended at this time.

Now what happens, if you've read the rest of

Samuel, is God does recapture or take over the

whole timeline of kingship in Israel. And he

begins working then to bring David into the palace

in Jerusalem, if you want to use that kind of

language. God does take it back over. He says,

I'm giving you what you want, but now I'm going

to go about and I'm going to work out. kingship

in Israel the way that I want and with the king

that I've selected. But he does give them what

they wanted. What do you guys make of that? If

this wasn't God's timing, then why did God give

them the king that they demanded? Well, he granted

them their desire, but why? So they could bear

the consequences of it. That seems to be later

on he says in verse 18 you'll cry out in that

day because of your king which you have chosen

and the Lord will not hear you on that day. So

what's the lesson there for us? Okay. So we can

ask the Lord for whatever's on our heart, as

long as our heart and our motive is right in

the thing. That's fine. But we accept the Lord's

answer of no, maybe no, not at this time, maybe

no, not ever, because it's better for us to be

there than to get what we want and then have

to bear the consequences of that. We ought to

remember that in our prayers and just in the

way that we check our desires. All right, then.

Anybody else want to say anything there before

we move on? All right, then. In verse 9, Now

therefore hearken unto their voice, howbeit yet

protest solemnly unto them, and show them the

manner of the king that shall reign over them.

And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto

the people that asked of him a king. And he said,

This will be the manner of the king that shall

reign over you. He will take your sons and appoint

them for himself. I'm not going to read that

all. What did you guys think about all that?

What do you think about what's Samuel saying?

Are these the signs of a bad king? Okay, so it's

not that this king is going to be particularly

wicked because he's going to take your sons and

your daughters and your land and your riches

and you're going to have to pay him taxes. That's

just the way, that's what a king is. Samuel's

just giving a definition of a king. Now, undoubtedly,

those things can be and were, even by Saul, abused.

And he went beyond what was normal or needed.

But the way of the king is that everything in

the kingdom belongs to the king. That includes

people, servants, cattle, land, everything. There's

a certain maintenance that goes along with having

any kind of a government. So Samuel's not saying

taxes are necessarily evil. Taxes, you have to

pay to maintain whatever the government that

you have. Expect that. Now they didn't have to

pay to maintain a government except for the sacrifices

that the priests and the Levites took. So they

had it pretty good as far as their money went.

And the people, the elders that came to them,

undoubtedly those were probably the wealthiest

people, had the best lands, had the most servants.

They were the ones that stood to lose the most

by appointing this king, or by having a king

to rule over them. What does that tell us? Samuel

goes through all this. He teaches them. He teaches

them what it's going to mean to be a king, and

they say what? Okay, that's what we want. So

what does that tell us? What does that tell us

about education? It's not the answer. Okay. That's

pretty obvious, isn't it? If you're still waffling

between an educated or an uneducated populace,

which one is more able to honor the Lord? You're

barking up the wrong tree. If you're wondering

if it's an educated or an uneducated person that's

able to make good decisions. The answer is it

doesn't have any bearing on the subject at all.

You can teach a stupid person everything that

they need to know. They're not going to apply

then that knowledge so that they can make good

decisions. Now, I'm not dismissing. I'm not saying

that education is a bad thing. I'm saying that

education is not the answer to bad decisions.

You can educate someone as much as you want.

But it's not going to make them make good decisions.

It's not going to make them make decisions that

honor the Lord. The solution in Israel was not

that these people just needed to be educated.

So then why did God educate them? So they'd be

without excuse. There's something... That ought

to be horrifying to us in that. Here we have

the only revelation of God that is ever going

to be had. And living in our time, we have it

in more abundance than any other generation has

ever had. We are the privileged generation. If

we want to know what God thinks about any given

subject, we have his Bible. And we have countless

books by countless godly men. Now we can go beyond

that. We can find all kinds of ungodly men that

have written all kinds of things. But we can

fill our bookshelves with books written by men

who were submitted to the Lord. I don't understand

this passage. I can find five or six different

godly men who have lived godly lives. And they

can teach me what I need to know. So what ought

to be the most godly people that have ever lived?

Liz? Us. I mean, would somebody want to take

the other side and argue against that? So then

as we go about our days evaluating ourselves,

Let's not give ourselves a pass. I guess that's

what I'm saying. Let's not chalk it up to technology.

Well, no other generation had Facebook. So we're

definitely at a disadvantage. Let's just reckon

with the truth of the matter that we have more

opportunity to know God and to understand His

Word. Than any group of people that have ever

lived on the face of the earth. It didn't do

Israel any good. It ought to do us good. Alright.

What does that tell us about government? Anybody

want to make an application there? It's all bad

all the time. Well, is the form of government

the problem? Okay, and what's going to differentiate

between a good government and a bad government?

In what way? Well, let's be specific. Let's say

I've got two democracies. How am I going to know

which one is a good government? Okay. Maybe they

both do. What about, now we could say communism

in some sense. What if you had a communist leader

who was, or a dictator, who was a Christian?

Would that be impossible to live under that form

of government? I don't know. Does he kill you

if you're not a Christian? I mean, it's not impossible.

Okay. Because you're saying he's a real Christian.

Yeah. Is there any other kind? So it's not the

form of government, it's who's running the government

that's the problem. They had judges, and as long

as they followed the judge, they did fine. They

had a king, and as long as the king was following

the Lord, everything was fine. They had Moses,

and they lived under Moses, and as long as they

did what Moses told them to do, everything was

great. whatever the form of government, as long

as it's the Lord who is ruling and the government

is voicing the word of the Lord to the people,

then everything is great. Alright, anybody want

to say anything there? Is there anything different

between a monarchy and the government that we

have? Is that the question? I just hate when

people say that. It's the government that's our

problem. It's like, no, you're the problem. You're

in a democracy. You can vote for different people.

Like, it's a relatively free country. You know,

people just complain about, it's like, you're

not living in Soviet Russia or, like, some, you

know, completely bad place. Anyway. Well, I'm

just saying, like, you know, we get to participate

in our government. We do get to participate.

Yeah, it's not like an authoritarian king. So

anyway, maybe having godly people running our

government would be good, but also maybe having

a godly voting base would also be, I guess, you

know, particularly good in a place that gets

to vote. In a democracy, the rulers reflect the

people. Maybe in a monarchy, the people reflect

the ruler. That's what we see in Israel. But

they are one and the same as far as their godliness

or their ungodliness as a general rule. Okay,

now we just need to come to a decision on whether

or not the... I guess we don't have to. We're

given the opportunity to come to a decision on

whether or not the Deuteronomy 17 passage was

predictive or indicative of that kingship was

eventually in God's plan for Israel. My answer

is that it was always in God's plan for Israel,

but it was going to be in his time and in his

way and his king. And I think this passage in

Samuel violates all of that. Does anybody want

to disagree with that and voice your opinion

as to why? Well, that was God's anointed king,

yeah. Is there a question about that? This wasn't

God's time. Well, that's what I'm saying is that

this wasn't God's time. This was Israel's time.

They demanded a king and they demanded it now

and they demanded the man that they wanted. A

man that would lead him out into battle and rule

over him in place of God and replacing Samuel.

I have a question for you. David didn't let him

kill Saul because he was God's anointed. And

then he killed the guy who killed Saul because

he was God's anointed. So it must have been one

of the... He was God's anointed. He was. Yeah.

Saul wasn't God's choice. He was anointed by

God. He was the people's choice. God told Samuel,

give them what they want. Well, we said why God

allowed it. We said why God gave it to him. So

they could bear the consequences and so he could

bring his king then in stark contrast to Israel's

choice for a king. And David was a stark contrast

most of the time from Saul. And he was always

contrasted in the sense that he was a man after

God's own heart. But that didn't make Saul something

to be scoffed at. God, I mean, it was a... When

they installed Saul as king, it was under, it

was by Samuel, who was God's prophet, according

to God's instruction. So he was there under the

authority of God. So you couldn't dismiss him

as less than that ever. And David didn't. That's

it. I mean, if you see the contrast between David,

here he... Here's Saul as king. David's been

anointed as king, right? And then what does David

do? He just waits for God's time. He waited,

how many years was it? Years he waited. Hiding

in caves, running here and running there, always

in fear of his life, having the opportunity to

help Israel. He did, having the opportunity to

kill Saul. He didn't. He just waited until God's

timing. That's totally in contrast to what Israel

did. Israel said, we want a king, and we want

him now, and we want to get to choose him. All

right, then. And this may be the biggest and

hardest lesson for us to learn. If God eventually

wanted to have kingship in Israel, Israel asked

or demanded for a king. So they were asking or

demanding what God was intending to give them

eventually. But their motive was totally wrong

in the whole thing. It's very subtle. Hopefully

we can see that in our own lives. I want this

good thing. I want this thing that God says he

wants for me. But why do I want it? And am I

willing to wait God's time for it? Now that's

hard. And I think that's one of the reasons that

this is such a hard chapter. another opportunity

then to check ourselves. Even in the things that

God says, these are good things. Even in the

promises of God, we await his timing in the thing.

He said he's going to give me food, but I'm hungry

right now. None of us is hungry, I don't think.

If you are, get with me after the meeting. But

it's an easy demonstration. God promises, and

there's Christians that have starved to death.

God's timing. God fulfills His promises in His

time. And we don't have the right to demand of

God that God meet our timeline in anything. And

if our heart is anywhere other than just submitted

to the Lord and patiently waiting for His time

for this thing to come into my life, then we

are on the wrong track. And that is hard. All

right, anybody else want to say anything else,

make an application for us? Or bring something

else out? Or else next week we're going to go

on to Chapter 9. and you shall be his slaves.

And in that day you will pray out because of

your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves,

but the Lord will not answer you in that day.

So, I guess it sounded like we were saying these

things aren't inherently bad, but then you could

abuse them, like if Saul was your king. So, I

guess it doesn't say, I don't know, it doesn't

make it sound like this king is abusing these

powers or anything. It just sounds like, you

know, these are just sort of facts, right? Like,

he takes your lands. You know, that's just part

of, you know, if you want a monarchy, then this

is what's going to have to happen. So, are you

saying that's a bad thing, or are you saying

that... Abusing. Like, are you saying that system

is a bad thing, or abusing that system is a bad

thing? The abuse is a bad thing. Well, I guess

I just don't see that. What? Well, it just, it

doesn't, it just... I'm not saying they're crying

out because of the abuse. They're going to suffer

abuse. They're going to suffer all kinds of stuff

that they wouldn't have suffered if they waited

God's time. And when they cry out and whatever

distress that is, it's going to be because they

demanded their king. And God's not going to hear

it. You understand what I'm saying? You're disagreeing

with what I'm saying. There's going to come a

time when Israel is going to regret making this

demand of God. And when they cry out to God in

that day, God's not going to hear them. That's

what the text says. Well, I guess we'll have

to read the rest of our Bible and we'll find

it, won't we? I mean, if you've ever read Kings,

no doubt you'll find wicked kings and suffering

people. So Saul was the first king. Did we say

Saul was the first king or David was the first

king? Saul was the first king. Okay. Description

of the monarchy. Is that true? Throughout the

whole. Whether it's Saul or David. Or anybody

after them. It's true. No matter who the king

is. So it was kind of the same system then? In

a king. The system that Israel demanded. Not

the way that God wanted to set it up. Samuel

is. Describing what a king is. In Israel. In

Egypt. In England. This is what a king is. In

Saudi Arabia. In our day. He's just describing

what a king is. And what he owns. Well, get with

me afterwards. Okay? Okay. Anybody else?