Sex Talks Pt5

All right.

Well, before we kick off, I'll just quickly say, because, you know, that's

what you do these days, don't you?

Do a trigger warning.

I guess the, some of the territory that these guys are going to

cover could potentially, be triggering for some people.

I don't know all your backstories here.

And if that is the case,

then,

And you feel it's appropriate to, you know, make sure you come and talk to, you

know, one of us at some point about that.

There is no story that is too shameful to share and, yeah.

So if there's anything that comes up through this that's, that's a really hard

and traumatic nature for you, and you've, you don't feel like you have shared

that part of your story before, yeah.

I would.

like to think that you would find Red Door a safe place for you to do that.

Whether you come talk to me, whether you come talk to Luke, or, yeah.

I mean, even if you wanted to start by talking to these guys, I'm sure

they would be fine with that too.

And I do, and just on that note, I do just want to acknowledge, as much as

we, you know, we're a great bunch here.

Myself included.

No, just kidding.

And so, oh seriously, good one Dale, shoot yourself in the foot.

I was about to say, this is a weighty matter, so let's be serious.

It is a weighty thing that we're talking about now, and it

is okay to joke and have fun.

But just remember this potential sensitive nature, and so what

might be, you know, not a big deal.

big deal for you could be for someone else.

So just be mindful

of where, one another

is at.

And this is, this is a, yeah, this is a really weighty thing

that we're talking about, and that we have been talking about

over all of, These months and,

yeah, I feel like in a way we've barely started scratching the

surface and, but, we'll see where it goes from here, won't we?

All right, so you're starting, Caleb.

Okay.

All right.

So let's begin with the backstory then, shall we?

If you're a youth leader, sorry, you probably heard some of

this on Sunday night already.

Had the privilege of talking to the youth on Sunday night about sexual

brokenness and sexuality and stuff.

But a big quote that's been like rattling around in my brain I wrote all this

down like six months ago and sent it to my brother because he's one of my

best friends and it's

literally on my word doc.

It's called how to dismantle a bomb notes on lust porn and grace and I just sent

it to my brother and I was like, I don't know what to do with all this stuff in

my heart Uh anyway, and he just sent me back this really good quote and he said

comes from a poet called Robert Bly.

And he says, where a man's wounds are, that is where his genius will be.

And as I look at my life, really the story that God's been writing

in my heart and in my story.

I told Dale, I think Sunday night, like, Dale, I don't want to be the sex guy.

Like, I don't want to be like, I care about so many

other things.

And she,

you challenged me like, Hey, like, it's not just your story,

but it's a lot of people's story.

But, Those of us that are courageous enough to go there, and I think

it's really cool that we're in a community that wants to go there.

So, like Dale just said, some of this is weighty.

And I haven't shared a lot of this with a lot of people go around doing that.

But, yeah, like this 1 comedian said, if we can laugh about

it and we can talk about it.

And God is kind anyway.

Yes, we can just start

beginning.

And like

Summer said and Dale said, each of our hearts is, is, we're speaking

from places of a lot of it healing and the journey of restoration.

But also this stuff is

so touchy.

But,

when I was 19, I lost my virginity and it wasn't magical or

romantic.

It was just

a really fleeting, painful, very awkward experience.

I didn't love her.

She didn't

love me.

And then

when I was 12 or 13, I think that was around the 1st time I

started watching porn and got

exposed to it.

And that's

really again, I don't remember exactly where I was.

All I remember is this rush of dopamine hitting my teenage body.

And sort of exploring all of this in my therapist office when I was

21, because it was at that age at 21 that I came to the surface that.

I was inappropriately, like, sexually touched and molested by an older female

when I was like, 3 or 4 or 4 or 5.

And my body had carried that through.

I don't know how many years you did math 5 to 21 and so a lot of my

story.

Was, again, I

didn't.

Say that out loud to anyone till

I was 21.

And so much

of my story, I, I lived in secrecy and in isolation and an addiction

and with just a completely

fractured soul.

I was raised in a really loving home.

My parents are very loving, but it was super disengaged.

And so there was a lot of

rules.

But, my parents

were very preoccupied in ministry and.

So there was, like, really not a lot of engagement.

And so you pair this

childhood trauma, porn and

no, not a lot of parental figures, it was just this incubator for this

longing for intimacy that we all have, but I just grew in shame and in

secrecy.

And,

yeah, I did have a lot of awesome, genuine moments with Jesus in my life,

but they would often be marred by like, Just slipping back into, yeah,

these unwanted sexual behaviors and

patterns.

And, again, I

know a lot of pastors kids, this is a lot of their

story sucks.

And again, my parents were loving and generous and we've walked through a lot

of this together and we're in a much better place as a family, which is really

awesome.

But again,

it was a horrible

cocktail of, family history

and trauma and

religious shame.

That was my story.

I don't know how many years 28 now.

Yeah.

2128 and I didn't really, yeah, I carried all of that for

so long.

And so, again,

I had these really genuine moments with Jesus.

I grew up in the church and around

it.

And, yeah, I had

these moments that maybe we've all had, like, okay, I know Jesus is real.

And I've experienced parts of his kindness, but man, I love sleeping with

women and like, I didn't know I couldn't.

I couldn't mend the 2 and I had the language of Jesus and.

Real experiences with Jesus, but I couldn't reconcile why.

Or how.

The shame and the secrecy would

drive me to, use women

as objects, to use my body as

an object.

And so, yeah, this was so much of

my life,

and it wasn't until 24.

So I had that moment in my therapist's office at 21, after getting out of

this relationship with the girl that I really loved, we were really close to

getting married, then I cheated on her

a bunch.

And I was

like, how the heck did I do that?

Like, why did I do that?

I thought I loved Jesus.

I thought I love this girl.

And that's really when the journey of unpacking all of this started

of, Oh, that's why I do that.

Like I so long for intimacy and my sexuality got hijacked at

such a young age that secrecy and isolation became a turnoff.

And so

I would, things would

get hard at uni or things would get hard in my relationship with this girl.

And I would run not only to porn, but to other

women to, to, cover this

longing for intimacy.

And it just imploded my whole

life, really.

So here I am 21,

nearly single and labbing all this stuff to my therapist and I would

say that's really the beginning again of unpacking a lot of this

journey.

What, is it okay

if I ask you a

question?

What led

you to therapy?

Was there a moment?

I just remember sitting outside

the curb, this was

before my parents and I

reconciled,

of my house and after admitting all of that to my housemates, after admitting

that to the girl I was dating and, and her

parents, like that

I had cheated on her

and stuff.

And I just

felt so and I was like, okay, I got to call my parents and let them know and

they were really disappointed in me and I just remember my mom like going in

on me and,

she was like, what?

Like, and then it's, it's almost as if in

that moment,

for the first time, my brain and my heart was like, Hey, you're already this broken.

Now, this thing that happened to you can come

up.

And so, that trauma

came up in that moment and I was like, I don't know how to deal with this,

but I should probably go to therapy,

I guess.

So it was

that moment really that I admitted that for the first time out loud and I

was like, I don't have the toolkit to

deal

with this stuff and I've tried everything else.

Maybe I should

try this.

So you've

got siblings, was, did any of them have a similar story or were you the black sheep?

Yeah.

I can't share all of their story, but my brother and I, we, we have very similar

stories.

Yep.

He's 36.

So he's eight years older than me, seven years older than me.

And so now we talk so often about this stuff that it's, it's great

because he's, he's a parent now and he's processed a lot of this stuff.

And I have a nephew who's six and.

Yeah,

it's been, ultimately

restoring and I'm super grateful, not grateful that this has happened to me, but

grateful that,

that God is so in his kindness, like brought this up in me and in my brother

so that we can now deal with it.

So now my nephew, who's just a beautiful boy, never has to deal with

this stuff, which is really cool.

But I'm 21 and I wish I could say it was like awesome after 10

months of therapy, but it wasn't.

Moved to Bali to help a church plant and in that 10 months that I'm

there, I, I sleep with like 3 or 4

different women.

Again, I

had this pattern of, okay, I know the problem, but I'd never learned the,

how to cope well with stress and life

and stuff.

Had an amazing

pastor there who just pastored me

really well.

And then

I moved here at 24.

And wrestled a lot.

Someone I was talking earlier, right before this, I, a lot of

my sexual brokenness was paired with a lot of alcohol dependency.

She was like, Oh, you should probably share that.

And I was like, Oh, yeah.

So I would get inebriated just to be a madman, like sexually.

Because sex and sexuality was such a no no in my home.

So I was like, Oh, if I get like, crap faced.

Then I'm off scott free because I was

just drunk.

And that

was just

so stupid.

Anyway, I

moved here and I shared parts of my story with some close

friends.

And I didn't have any, like, I guess what you

call in,

addictive or rehab circles, any

relapses.

In terms

of alcohol or women.

So I was like, cool, I'm healed or

whatever.

Start dating

another girl.

She's

awesome.

We break

up and then after we break up, like a month later, I

start seeing,

a woman that I met at a cafe that I was working at and we start sleeping

together and,

yeah, just that old, like coping mechanism

came up of, here I am

in seminary.

and turning out of church, not this church, another

church.

And,

yet this thing, and I can't shake this

thing.

And, just remember

driving down to Frio to see the woman I was seeing at the time.

And I have, I have such a good, I have such good people in my

life.

And, my friend

called me and he was, and he knew, and he knows my story.

And he was like, Hey man, like, I love you.

But if you keep going down this path, like it's going to, you're

going to fracture yourself to a point that you can't come back.

Like you are going to, you can be with her and you can do what you want to do.

But you're going to get to a point where everything that you feel called

to everything that you feel God's called you to, like, you will just

have given yourself completely over to

yourself, that you

won't come back from.

And that day I went and broke up with a girl, which

is great.

And I would

say that was really the moment at 24, I'm

28 now of,

formation, the beginning of formation of my soul into Christ likeness,

I think.

So thanks

to therapy and really good

friends.

And I haven't, Slept with another woman since then, which

and then I'm joined this community and you and ads and

Luke and the team here are just

the best.

And I remember the 1st time I sat with Adam in his office, just told him my whole

story.

And, since that

moment, he hasn't left my side.

You guys haven't left my side.

Some

hard times,

and I think, I don't know if you said it, but we're not up

here because I'm like, awesome.

Everything's great.

God's kind and nothing.

Everything's fine.

But.

A lot

of my heart has been restored and is being restored.

And a lot of

my mind, has been

restored and is being

restored.

And that's genuinely, I think

God's grace,

In and through

the people of God, you

guys, Luke, Mandy, Vinny,

a lot of the team here that, that know the guts of my story

and yeah, it's just been super painful.

Like, so

painful,

So excruciating at times,

shame sucks,

but so I'm really grateful, I think, in a weird way, not in a masochistic

way, but,

genuinely

in a way that

I can,

not confident in myself, but confidently say, like, I'm not going back to those

things anymore, which is really cool and

really hard.

But 4 years

on, it's like, what Peter tells Jesus, right?

When Jesus is like, you guys going to bail too?

And he's like, man, where else would I go?

Like, you alone hold the words

of life.

And I think

at this point in my life, and hopefully forevermore, like, that's.

in my heart.

I got nothing else, man.

How are you

feeling, Summer?

Oh, I'm pretty

excited.

I'm always

excited, aren't I?

Yeah.

This is really the first time you've shared this, isn't it?

So, this is the first time I've shared it.

Like, so I've shared it one on one with people, but never like this.

And it's been recorded.

Don't even know if we'll release it.

So, lucky you guys.

We may, I don't know, we'll see what happens.

Yeah, I guess,

yeah, so I'm excited to share it.

It's been a long time

coming.

So, I grew up

in Pindgirlie actually.

So I'll start there.

That's where you start.

I grew up in Pindgirlie.

I grew up on a

farm there.

So I have

a dad and a mom and two older brothers and then all this stuff.

So I'm the youngest.

That might

explain a lot.

So I lived

there until I

was eight.

And then

my parents split and they got a divorce.

So me and my mom and my sister, we moved to Perth and then my dad and

my two brothers stayed on the farm.

So, you know, I got to see my dad every fortnight and, you know,

got to see my brothers then as well, but they were older as well.

So,

So it was kind of, you know, didn't have that full relationship that you have, you

know, with your sibling that you might live with, you know, or that relationship

with learning how to be friends with men

as well.

So yeah, so it was a Christian

household.

We went to

church every Sunday.

I loved singing, you know, the little

worship songs.

Father Abraham,

I was

a banger.

. I went to Sunday Church and Sunday School Church, and we did all that.

we

had like, quite a Christian

upbringing, you know, all the TV shows were Christian and like, it was good.

And I remember we watched like, I Am Special, and then I went to school and

told everyone at school that they're special and no one wanted to listen to me.

I was like, you're special.

Like they were fighting.

I special.

And they're like, What are you talking about?

So summer hasn't changed very much.

Yeah,

was this yesterday?

So I used to do

that a lot.

And then,

so moved to Perth when I

was eight.

Went to school

here and, you know, it was just really

liked boys.

Had my first

kids when I was 12.

Cute.

Caleb did too.

Sorry, you had your first what when

you were 12?

Yes.

Oh, okay.

So cute.

It was memorable.

So

memorable.

Yeah.

His

name was Tyler.

He was from Canada and he was shorter than me.

Anyway,

so then, you know,

I grew up in a Christian home, read my Bible.

My mom got me a teen Bible and had all the advice and the

quizzes and all of that fun stuff.

So used to read that all the time.

And I, you know, like I'd pray to God.

And so I'd have, I had this relationship

with him,

And like, yeah, like I would often like pray with my friends if they

were going through a hard time.

And so like, I definitely like was a

Christian.

But then at 15,

I got an 18 year old boyfriend and I decided that I was ready to

have sex.

So yeah,

so I lost my virginity at 15 and you know, I had decided, yep, I'm ready for this.

But then I didn't have any wise counsel to navigate

actually how,

the boundaries or the rights, you know, in a relationship or how to actually

navigate that in an adult way, you know, I've had the advice of, you

know, other 15 year olds and adults would just say, Oh, don't have sex.

Let's

don't do it.

So no one

really was like, Oh, this is how you do it.

You know, it was just, sorry.

And after I got out of this relationship after a year

and a half, you know,

like I, I went to the Bible, my teen Bible, and I looked up all this

ones about sex, all the stories, and it was just like, okay, don't have

sex, just don't have sex, don't have sex, and like, just don't do it.

And then, so I was like, well, I've

done it.

So I'm kind

of screwed, so I might as well just keep going.

So, yeah, so I definitely, I went looking for, you know, acceptance and healing

in that, but my Bible just, you know, the stories were just like, don't do it.

I was like, okay.

So anyway, so that kind of put

me on the, a path, I

guess, you know, feeling too

far gone.

So by 17,

17, I got my driver's license.

That was terrible.

I could drive to parties and hang out with boys and all I wanted

was just love and intimacy.

I just wanted that.

I just wanted them to know me, to see me and yeah, I, you know,

enjoyed the attention and all.

But I, you know, put myself in many terrible and hurtful

situations where I was sexually

assaulted.

So yeah,

so that happened many times and that kind of

shaped me.

Yeah, so

I kind of grew into this identity of just, you know, being promiscuous.

I was a promiscuous girl.

So all my friends knew me as that and that was my identifier.

You know, that was the stories that I would bring.

You know, to work on Monday morning or that was the conversations that me

and my friends would have and we talk about and, you know, someone just has

sex with lots of people and that's just

who she is.

But it was,

yeah, there was so many, many facets to it as well, because.

you know, I was trying to gain back control.

So I had this identity, I felt broken, I felt lost, I felt

like I couldn't go to church.

And, you know, kept trying to go to church as well.

Like I went to a youth group a couple of times, went to Riverview a couple

of times for their youth, but then just kept kind of going back into the

world and kept staying on that path.

So yeah, so that kind of just really, yeah, kind of put my life in a

trajectory.

I've just,

Yeah, becoming that.

So then when I turned 18 and started going clubbing and drinking and

all of that, so, and then that also became my identity of just being

a

promiscuous drunk.

So

yeah, so that is kind of my story and yeah, what it was like before God.

So that's my backstory.

I want to talk about say the unhealthy intimacy.

So this is how I was kind of, you know, so I was creating this deep intimacy

with people by having sex with them.

So, you

know, the, the sex talks that, Dale and

Adam's house, where we did

the boxes, we had four

boxes stacked on top of each other.

So the bottom box was in a spiritual, the third, the second box was intellectual.

That was it.

Then there

was physical and no, it was social and then

physical.

Does that make sense?

And then he looks blank.

You got it?

That's

his natural face.

Yeah.

So spiritual,

intellectual, social, physical,

if you build it upside down, it's going to fall over.

Like it, it will, you know, so then, so

yeah, so,

I would create,

you know, The boxes that I was, you know, coming out of was the physical

box and then like the social box.

So I was, you know, having sex with people to have deep intimacy with them.

But these relationships would last either a short, like a super short amount

of time, to maybe

2 or 3 months.

Like, that was, that was my

relationships.

So it was

just from 1 to

another,

and, yeah.

It didn't, like, it didn't create long term, like even if it went

for three months, it like fizzled hardcore out because I was like,

We have nothing else to talk about spiritually or intellectually, you

know, there was nothing else we had.

It was literally just a physical box and that, that didn't make

anything last.

Yeah, so

it created in me a false sense of intimacy, say, and

ownership over people as well.

So I'd

actually, you know,

I would feel like, okay, I had sex with you.

I'm going to try and not look at anyone.

I had sex with you.

I had sex with you.

So now I will, I will be like, I'm the most intimate with you.

No one else can ever be as intimate as I have been with you.

Even if we haven't had good sex, it will still be like, I had sex with him.

No one else.

So her as I had sex with them.

And like, I have this connection.

I have this bond.

And like, if we didn't like it was, it was not, it was false.

It was,

you know, and I realized

this after I stopped having sex with people and which

is like, hang out with them.

I just didn't have that ownership over them anymore.

I was like, I just like.

I didn't have sex with you and now I, we don't really have that much

intimacy, because we

had nothing else.

So I would like, you know, fall in lust with people and infatuation

with people.

But it was

just, you know, the chemicals of the dopamine and, you know, all of

that science stuff that goes on when you have sex with people or just,

so anyway, so.

That was, yeah, that

was that.

But then another way that I was building intimacy with people was in the social

box of just getting drunk with them.

Like I had social anxiety.

I didn't know how to talk to people.

I hated small talk.

I was like, I don't want to know what you do for work.

I don't care.

I just want to be a hundred percent.

Like that's just be best friends.

So I just would get drunk with people and then that would be my way of.

Oh, we're best friends now because we go drunk together and we just throw

up in weird places and you know, do weird stuff together and it's just

really funny and you know, you hurt yourself and whatever and yeah, whatever

you do when you get drunk, you know.

So that was another way that I would do it.

And then also like my work colleagues, I had a good relationship with them,

but then we would start talking about social stuff and then we would

probably get drunk together and so I'd go down the same rabbit hole.

And then another way that I built intimacy was gossiping.

So, if you just had, like, a mutual person that you, like, is just so annoying or you

just hated them and, like, you just wanted

to just, gossip about,

you know, just talk

about them, you could

just find a person and that could be your bond.

You could have nothing else in common except for a hatred towards someone

and then that is what bonds you.

And like, that was a lot of my relationships was like, just built around

gossiping about our work colleagues.

Or, yeah, like a lot of them were

like that, which is

just so terrible and horrible and just gross.

And I think, like, I hate it when I fall back into those, those patterns

as well.

So I was

just having really, yeah, not enjoyable intimacy

with people.

Yeah, so sex,

drunk and, gossiping.

So,

all right, ready?

This is the good bit.

This is exciting.

I had to reread my

journals, from 2016,

just to

kind of, get some

facts.

It was good.

It was really fun, actually.

Ah, so funny.

Okay.

All right.

In 2016, I just ended

a long term relationship the

year before.

I think it

was like a year, year and a half that we were together.

And in that, I was like, I just, there's something more out there.

Like, I know that there's something more.

This is not fulfilling.

Like, I.

Like, yeah, I just wasn't satisfied in this

relationship, and then

I ended up, so we broke up and I was like, I'm going to go to church.

So then went to my mom's church a couple

of times, and I had

decided that I was a

Christian.

So I had

put on, like I had painted my nails.

and painted a cross on my fingernail to be like, to remind me that I was a Christian.

And I was like, I go to church now and I have this cross and I'm a

Christian now.

And that,

that's like, and I was like, Oh man, I'm sucking at this.

This is not reminding me at all that I'm a Christian.

So I was very like religious and like, let's just go to church.

And I remember going to my mom's church and the pastor

was like, I sin all the time.

I'm like the, I just struggle with this.

And I was like, I don't sin at all.

Like, I just had stopped having sex with people.

And I was like, I don't sin.

What is he talking about?

Like, what is he doing?

He was doing, doing some like really bad stuff.

He needs to paint his nail, clearly.

He actually, he mentioned that in his sermon because I told him the week before

and then the next week he's like, a girl came up to me and painted a nail to

remind herself that she's a Christian.

And I was like, Oh, that was me.

I was like, I don't know if it was a good thing to do or not to, like, yeah,

he didn't really say what the heck are

you doing?

But anyway,

so.

So I went there a couple of times.

It was too far.

I was like over in Forestville.

I was like, I'm not driving there every Sunday.

That's crazy.

I'm not that committed to this Christian

thing.

No.

At that point

I was really just watching TV, my, you know, during the whole week.

So I'd go to work, come home, watch TV.

On my weekends, I would just stay watching TV all day, all night,

go to bed, wake up, just watch TV.

So anyway, that was my life.

So I was like, I, yeah, this is boring.

And I need a.

Let's get it.

Let's go to a church.

So on the

1st of May, like Google

churches in the area because I live in 6S, Coburn.

So I was like, Google churches in the area.

And I was like, cool, there's Red Door.

Let's go there.

So on the 1st of May, I came to Red Door and it was

magical.

I, sat next

to a girl who normally doesn't come to the morning services.

She goes to the afternoon.

She's like, Hey, come to the afternoon services.

There's lots of young adults there.

And I was like, okay, cool.

I'll do that.

Anyway, then during worship, we sang the creed.

That was so beautiful.

And the whole worship, I was just weeping and crying and I had just, I.

felt God's love.

I felt his acceptance.

I just felt him.

And I was like, Oh, this is amazing.

I felt really wonderful.

And I just felt a release and I just couldn't stop crying.

Then

during the, sermon, Luke actually

spoke, he spoke on confession and

repentance.

Yeah, it's pretty good timing.

It's

been great.

Yeah, it

was a little bit perfect, so that was really

wonderful.

So, I wrote in my notes, don't blame

others for your sin, confess them to God and he will

redeem you.

So that's

what I think Luke spoke about.

Don't blame others.

For

your sin.

So that was

good.

So that impacted me because that was one of the things that I wrote down.

But anyway, so then I cried and then I went home and I just

cried and I can like write out my repentance, write out my confession.

And it was, it read

like this.

Okay.

Okay.

I wanted, so this is what I wrote, I was like, I want to stop having casual sex.

I want to experience a relationship with Christ.

I want to read his word and follow him.

And I just felt in that moment from, you know, experiencing my mom's

church, to be like, I don't sin at all, to be like, Oh, I am a sinner.

And I feel it all.

And yeah, like just feeling the weight of it, feeling the need

for God, feeling the desire

for God.

And not like

a

superficial love.

I ended up

coming back in the night service as well and ran into my good

friend Asha, out the front,

but I'd never met before.

And she was in a bubbly mood and she's like, I'm Asha.

And I was like, Oh, I'm Summer.

My first day here.

Friends morning, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, so I sat with her and it was a good time.

And I cried again, and I just cried, and for a couple of months I just

cried, and that is what I did.

I came to church and I cried and I just, yeah, came here to heal.

Oh, so yeah, so I have done a lot of repairing in this

building, a lot of

it as well, but yeah, it's been

wonderful.

Yeah, but so I grew to love God deeply and cherish his words and enjoyed spending

time with him and I was intimate with God.

And he helped me change my identity.

So from that

point on, I, I went to

the basic course that we used to

run here, and that

was really cool.

So I was just going through the basics of Christianity.

So that was really

awesome.

Just would like, just fell in love with reading the word.

I would do hours of Bible study and I would pray and, you know, I loved

house fires, that one there, that was

great.

The, the band worship people, they're really

wonderful.

So, yeah, so I found it really easy to be intimate with God.

Like that was easy because I was like, oh, because that's easy.

You know, you just by yourself and just talking to the Lord and it's just lovely.

And you're reading and, you know, But initially it was really

challenging, to be friends

with the young adults because I couldn't have sex with them.

I, I couldn't get drunk with them and we tried not

to gossip.

So it was really, really hard.

Look, we all Yeah, we all are growing and changing and healing.

But anyway, so I was like, I don't know how to be intimate with these people.

I don't know.

I don't, I just don't know.

Like, I dunno what, I don't know how to have a small talk.

I was socially awkward.

I was like, should I just go to

church drunk?

I, I, yeah,

I was so

confused.

My first.

You young adult camp.

I was so nervous to go down.

I went to my like he's in bustleton.

I drove to my auntie's house my cousin offered me a glass of wine and

I drank it and I then I went to the camp because I was like This is I'm

so scared to go to camp and I went to camp and I cried and it's really

good And it was a wonderful weekend.

Yeah, I'm a crier Yeah, but So, how do I have, how do I build relationship with

these people?

The quickest

way I built

community was, with one

person, who, well, I guess like a couple

of people, but,

Louisiana was super

wonderful, we would

talk about the Bible and talk about love for it,

ah, and, yeah, https:

otter.

ai

That helped, you know, and

challenged me.

So thank

you.

Ah, anyway, but I, yeah,

that was, that's how I started to be intimate with these people.

By talking about God with them, by journeying, you know, my

story with them, opening up and

sharing and, going to

Bible studies with them.

And that was, you know, that was where I created intimacy and it was so awesome.

It was so awesome to build that kind of intimacy with

these people.

Yeah,

so then, I've even

grown in my

intimacy, You know,

with guys as well, having healthy relationships

with them,

I, you know, I can, it doesn't have to be that sexual attraction or the

tension for us to have, you know, build an intimate relationship.

We can just have conversation and.

So like, I've learned that over the years, you know, it's been eight

years and I've learned that, that I can just actually have a conversation

with them, and it doesn't

have to be this like, Oh, do I like this person?

Can we date?

It's

like, no.

Yeah, but it was really hard.

It was a really hard journey to get to

this point.

So now I

can have, now I have, Men in this, in this church that are like brothers to me.

And I have, you know, like Luke has been a brother to me the

last couple of years, and Mr.

Liam Shaw has been there

as well.

And they've

just been able to speak truth into

my life.

But there's

so many of you,

you know, even women as well.

It's been

so awesome being able to journey with you and, you know, to be

intimate.

Yeah, so they've kind of, you know, taught me how to be

a sister, and had all

brothers in Christ

as well.

So yeah,

so back

to like the four

intimacy kind of like stages, the spiritual, intellectual, social, physical,

it's like now I get, now I have built.

These relationships up, you know?

So then, you know, being able to talk about God and then just being able to talk

about, I don't know, intellectual stuff.

, I dunno.

Mass, let's go mass.

Politics, just your political

issues.

You know,

just, I know doctor stuff.

Oh, like kids?

I dunno.

Yeah.

Like science?

No, like kid, like brain.

Things like develop, I don't know.

Psychology.

Oh, that's a good one.

So anyway, so kind of get to that and then there's a social.

So then it's like building relationship socially as well.

So going to the beach and having dinner.

Oh my gosh, I love eating.

I love eating with people.

And I just like, yeah, that made that is

so good.

But then,

you know, physical, how do you have healthy physical, you

know, intimacy with people when you're not married and whatnot.

It's just like, oh, mate, I love to like hug people, but only after

I've built this beautiful tower.

You know, I just don't want to go around hugging everybody, hugging

everybody.

But like, you know, I hug people, I touch their faces, I play with

their hair and I actually just hold

their hand.

So if I hold

your hand or like give you a handshake and it goes a bit longer than you

expect, just know that I'm just, yeah, a couple of you would know.

Yeah,

when you just have so much love in your heart for someone and it just

comes out in this like hug or this, you know, you just wanna touch their

hair or just touch them Anyway, so I do that and I just think it's so powerful.

Oh my gosh.

I love working with kids as well because I just get to like hug them and like,

they're just so good at hugging as well.

Like they hug so well and they just hug for so long and it's

so like, it's so terrible.

That like the devil has like taught, like, you know, turn this, like

this powerful, beautiful thing of just a hug and, you know, like a

kiss on the cheek or just, yeah.

And it's like, no, like, let's make it.

Let's bring it back.

Make hugging.

Okay.

Again, but the levels.

The levels.

Okay.

Make hair touching.

Okay.

Again, touching.

You

don't have,

I think what,

yeah.

What summer's getting at is if you can't hear it, we've both

been searching for like intimacy.

Yeah.

Mm-Hmm.

, like all of us search for that.

Some of us through childhood stuff, some of us through

circumstance.

Have this, Saint Augustine,

right?

God, because you have made us for yourself.

Therefore, our hearts are restless until we find rest in you.

And God, if you haven't learned, is infinite.

And so, therefore, our souls and hearts and bodies and

entire beings long for intimacy.

And like someone just said, like, the enemy knows that.

And in my story, he got in really early and just You know, really

morph that.

And so some

of us here tonight, I think that's the, the rock in our shoe is, is

there something wrong with me?

Like any of us struggling with pornography, any of

us struggling with lust.

Any of us struggling with anything that we're talking about, I think it

was Spurgeon that said any young man that finds himself in a brothel is

looking for God and that's the reality.

I think, it's not

justification for our actions,

but it's, gives language

to our lived experience for any of us struggling and navigating this stuff.

We're just looking for God and again, our hearts, our bodies, our minds, like some

are saying, are restless

until they find their true home and safety and that's in Christ.

To like, what some are saying, our

community, safe people, in restored

relationship.

Yeah, I think something you're saying, like, it's such a blessing

for me to be able to have.

Female friends, and it'd be platonic and my heart actually long for the

best for them, not in a way of.

What can I get out of them?

Because I, I need something and then even also, how can I be honest?

It's funny.

Luke probably shared something about confession as well.

And it's just something he's

taught me is, in confession.

It can feel so weird and

awkward and,

like, but in that I remember confessing stuff to him and he was like, and

Adam, and they were both like.

Man, like, we just want you to know we don't see you less now.

We actually have more respect for you because when we're honest and when

we're open and in safe community.

That's when, like, I guess a lot of healing starts.

It's something I read and I didn't say it's just everything we're talking

about the brokenness in our stories.

Is a symptom of a longing heart and a longing heart.

We all have every single person in this world.

Whether for us in our story, it was, it was sexual brokenness.

Some of you guys, it's money.

Some of you guys, it's pride.

Some of you guys, it's career.

Some is relationships.

Some is you insert

anything, just longing

to find home in God.

And I think, like you said, like that weeping, I also experienced that really

early in my healing journey of just these bouts of like, Oh, I'm going to play

this Hillsong song three hours later.

I'm just a wreck, like just a wreck.

And I think it was my body

grieving,

brokenness and coming home again.

And I think.

The story of the prodigal son, I imagine the parable continuing and the young son.

Learning as we have to find himself at home again.

Like, waking up in his bed and being like, oh, no, I'm good.

I'm actually good.

Like, my dad actually is not going to turn the tables and be like, I'm just kidding.

Like, we're actually good

and

for a lot of us that struggle with this area.

I think it is that prodigal soul of, of we're good.

Like even, even today on the drive here, like

I'm good,

I'm loved, I'm seen, I'm known, I'm imperfect and broken, but

I'm so loved and I'm so seen

and I'm

safe.

And that's, that's me.

I was done.

You're good.

Caleb, do you feel like you shared every part of your story that you were wanting

to share, that you were wanting to

share?

Yeah.

Well, first thing that comes to mind is just because you just brought it

up, the story of the prodigal son.

Which is such a powerful story in light of what you guys have just shared and

that real prodigal experience both of you having that experience of church

You being a PK, but both of you growing up in church and then that going away,

but then that coming home and I think What's so powerful about that story and

something we've got to remind ourselves of and I've been reminding Some parents

of this recently who, who are struggling with their kids who are going down that

prodigal road is that at the end of the day, which is the one that came home?

You know, you've got the older brother and you've got the younger

brother and the younger brother is the one that comes in and he comes

into the party and the older brother.

And often what we do in church is we go, we can comfort ourselves with the

thought of either ourselves or as parents, or my children are behaving rightly.

They're ticking all the boxes.

They're not having sex, they're not getting drunk,

they're showing up to church.

They're serving, but we're just cultivating older, older brothers

at the end of the day just 'cause they don't know the father.

And, and that's something, because, you know, in this room right

now, we've got the, we've got a

spectr of youngest

to older.

And, and the, the, the power of that story is that both the younger and

the older brother were equally lost, but the father's heart towards both.

was

the same.

It didn't matter.

His heart

was just that both came home to

him.

And and that's,

that's the core thing at the end of the day.

It's not, the most important thing isn't that you stay morally pure

till your wedding night, right?

As important as it is because sex is powerful and it's intended for

the, within the context of marriage and, and that's, you know, that's

That, that's the goal of where we

express, sexual desire,

but you know, we know it doesn't always work out that way, but the,

the, the end goal is that you know the father and that the father

knows you, not that

you can tick a bunch of religious

boxes.

And I think that's

really important.

And the other thing I just really want to say.

to you guys.

Well, one, thank you

so much, for what you shared.

And thank

you for your

vulnerability.

And, oh,

I just

want to say,

I'm sorry.

I know I'm

not part of your, literally I'm not part of your stories, right?

Your backstories, right?

But as a representative of the church, the church has done a terrible job, right?

And the church was not a place where you were able to come to a true understanding.

About who you were in God's sight and around your sex and your sexuality and

and all of that and and it wasn't a place where Your brokenness was answered and

healed and seen and the church has not done a good job in this space because,

you know, you, you, you're both brought up in the church and I just, I just,

it's just hit me the last couple of days as I've been just, you know, reading

over things for tonight and just going, Oh man, we just, there is just not a

compelling vision in this area at all.

And so that when your brokenness is screaming at you, there isn't a compelling

vision that you have been taught and that has been sewn into you that

holds you.

When the

pain is screaming, when the loneliness is screaming, when the shame is screaming

and you have to answer those cries, right?

A starving person has to eat, right?

And God understands this, but here we are as the church and there's

all these starving people and we're not giving them the food.

And so they've got to go feed

somewhere.

These needs

are deep and they're part of who we are.

And the church does.

There is, the food is here.

It's just not getting served up.

And so I just feel like God's heart over your stories is

just one of such compassion.

And like, He grieves over it.

And I know, you know, you guys are at home with the Lord.

There's no shame or condemnation that you have there.

You know, I know you're good with God and you know God's heart for

you.

But, you know,

I'm just feeling His heart as you're sharing.

stories and go, you know, that was not his intention for you.

And, and certain people should have done better and they didn't.

And yeah, anyway, that

was free.

Did anybody have any questions, comments?

Oh,

yes, Sarah.

Yes.

I'm

going

to sing, karaoke.

I'm asking this question because I kind of already know the answer,

but I feel like it might be helpful.

I think maybe just like.

Since, for both of you, like, since you've had your,

I don't know, your moment, your turning point, has it all

been rainbows and butterflies?

Are your relationships with the opposite sex, have your relationships with the

opposite sex been perfect ever since then, or like, what's that journey been like?

It's good, Sarah.

Yeah, mine's been perfect.

I am

perfection.

No, it has not been, rainbows

and butterflies and perfection.

It has been

Yeah, a long, yeah, a long

journey.

It's

been

a long journey.

I have definitely,

you know, the devil has tried to pull me back again and again

and again.

And I have

stumbled and has been days when I have just woken up and just been

like, I think I might have sex today.

And then I just go and have sex.

And it's like, I just, I just did it.

And I was like, why did I do that?

Why did I have this on my mind?

And like, have that as my assignment for the day, not that I like, not that

I was actively doing that, but I just felt like, Oh, I think this is, yeah.

So it's like, it's a, it's a battle.

And I think it's a journey and like, you know, going through, you know,

counseling to heal in all of this area.

Like I've been to prayer ministry.

I've seen clinical psychologists.

I, you know, like, it has been a long journey to be able to, you know, come

and just share this and share this in a place where it's like, you know, it's

totally fine to share this or, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't hurt as much, you

know, or,

yeah, but I have slipped, slipped up so many times.

And I think even in the last.

Like I'm 30 now, you know, the last time I had sex was when I was 25.

I was like, you know, five years ago, I slipped up and I was

like, I don't want to do this.

I don't want to, I don't want to keep building my relationships

with this physical box.

I want to actually build these healthy relationships.

And that, that is definitely what I have done in my

relationships, with men

and dating.

It's like, no, I'm

building a, one that

is strong on our love for God.

And that is the, like, that's the strongest foundation.

And if we don't have the same views on God and that,

then I don't, I don't

want it.

And, you know, you want to be able to.

You're going to marry this person and have 40 years together.

You're not going to have sex every, well, maybe you'll have sex every

day, I don't know, but you won't have

sex 24 7, you know,

you're going to have to.

Sounds exhausting.

You know, you're going to have to do other things in your life,

you can't just have sex all the time, you know, you're going to

go, anyway,

yes, you

need more common interests than just, yeah.

Physical and like just learning to build a relationship, not

just on sexual tension or like.

You know, sexual attraction, and you're like, oh my gosh, like,

you're just, I just want you so bad.

It's like, no, that's not healthy.

That's not a healthy place to be.

You know, obviously that's a natural desire, but I think if that's your

only connection that you have with someone and, you know, you don't.

Can I just ask you a question just off the back

of that, and then

Caleb, you can answer that question if

you want.

Oh, there's,

you can choose to

pass too.

Do you have

to be careful about what you're feeding yourself on?

So if you've got a vulnerability in this space, right, where you,

you are romantic by nature and you have this longing for this intimate

connection, so do you have to be careful what you watch, what you read?

Yep.

Yeah, so I, music's a big one for me.

Mm hmm.

So like, like listening to music, it really changes

like me.

I was listening

to Melina Martinez and her is quite, you know, I don't even know how to

describe her, but like, it was like, just made me feel super like, you

know, like heavy and saucy and kind of like very like, you know, put me back

in that promiscuous headspace again.

And a lot of songs do that.

Like they, like, they put me in that headspace and I'm like, Oh, I need, I

need to stop listening to this because it's just, it's just getting me.

I

wound up and, and definitely

what I'm like

watching, I don't watch porn.

Yeah, that's a

big one.

Know,

watch

porn's, like, yeah.

Yeah.

So I don't watch, we got that in common.

I don't

watch.

Yeah.

I don't watch, you know, heavy

sex scene, movies and

like, even if like, I'm watching a TV show and it's like a bit of

a heavy sex scene, I'm like, oh, I don't really wanna watch this.

Or like, I, you know, like, I'm.

There is that little bit of a check of like, nah, I don't.

I don't need to

see this.

So I watch

a lot

of like, nice cuddly

Hallmark movies.

I love them.

Oh my gosh.

They're just so beautiful because they're like building, they're building

relationship in a kind of a nice way.

Aren't they?

You know, now most of the time it's like sexual

tension, but, but also,

you know, they're doing, they're helping each other and they're doing nice things.

And like I watched one the other day, I was like, this

is so wholesome and beautiful.

And I just, I just

love it.

But yeah,

I don't.

I try not to watch

too much, crap, and

then just the songs I

listen to.

I had to

start reading a book the other day because I was like, this is

not good.

Yeah.

Because

that was kind of just like, I think she became a prostitute.

And I was like, I have to start reading this.

Yeah.

No, no, not the Bible.

No, no, I'm sure that does happen in the Bible.

It happens in the Bible.

Yeah.

So even the Bible, like sometimes I read the Bible and be like,

okay, I need to start reading this.

To get out of Song of

Songs.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just

sometimes, I'm just.

The sealed section

of the Bible.

Okay.

Yeah.

I need to start reading this.

We'll come back to you another

day.

But, but yeah.

No, it's good.

Yeah.

That's good.

Caleb, did you have anything you wanted to add

to that?

I think first,

Sarah's question, turning point, I think it's turning

points for me, like constantly.

I think I texted Luke like two weeks ago.

Hey, man, I'm sharing on, you know, sexuality and sexual

brokenness, like, two nights

in a row.

I feel like

that's going to put me in a quite vulnerable space,

and just constantly, what this whole journey is continually

waking me up to is not an

arrival.

But man,

like I'm so needy and I'm so dependent.

And for me, the moments I start feeling like I'm

all good.

I think it's

a Proverbs or something.

It's like, be careful to say you stand unless

you fall.

And it's

not this like paranoia.

It's just this like, no, I like,

I

know my heart's really good at deceiving me.

Really good at deceiving others.

So I'm like, and now having gone through a lot of this being where I'm at today,

it's like, And I know what it is to be like this open and to be known.

And that's so much

greater for me.

So constant turning points.

How is that

reshaped my view of women?

I don't honestly, not in a, in a boastful way.

I never really had a, a.

Antagonistic or aggressive view

of women, in a domineering

way, it was actually quite similar to summer.

Like, I really long to be seen and love and

accepted.

And and it's

funny, I, I was probably more emotional after sex and women were in my.

Instance, and it's

not

funny and,

they were still an object of my story anyway, so constant turning points, being

careful to be open to my female friends.

That will be the call me on stuff.

I'm like, Hey, like, you seem a bit flirty there.

We're like, Hey, this can be perceived this way.

Okay,

and being aware of my own heart.

Like, I know what I'm trying to do right now and it's.

Manipulate a conversation to get me.

And then the 2nd

question is.

Yeah, for sure.

I think,

it's like if you've ever trained for a sport or, or a marathon or anything,

or even when you just try to start eating healthier and like you're doing

awesome for a few months and then you go to McDonald's and just like pig

out and you just, I feel hung over.

Now if I have McDonald's,

like

I just feel like, so.

Sickly, and I think it's

similar,

Like

when you're trying to be formed into a person that is good and, you know,

after Jesus heart, it's like, you just like, start sitting back that way.

Feel it, I think not to over spiritualize, but you do, but then if you keep going,

right, James says, like, you just get numb and I live that as well for sure.

Like, some similar music,

like.

I know what I want to listen to, to get me in a headspace

to where I'm like, after world.

Yeah, Max, yeah, anyway.

Anyone else any questions?

Good questions here.

No,

you're not very curious,

but

I just want to say to what you said earlier.

Thank you.

And if you call red door home, like, this is actually a safe church.

And I've, I think I've told you maybe hopefully countless times.

I hope that, like.

You and Adam and Luke and what you guys have built here and are

building here is actually not perfect, but it is a safe place.

And it is a place where people like that have walked what we've walked through can

actually heal.

So thank

you, both you and Ads and Luke and the

team,

and you're actually practicing what you preach.

And for those of us, again, that call up Red Door Home, and you're

still in that place of like, I don't know, like, I've sat with Adam, I've

sat with Dale, I've sat with Luke.

And if yeah, open my heart expecting because I know shame

really well, for them

to spank me and be like, okay, now go say, you know, do all this stuff.

Like, oh, okay, like, we love you.

Let's go grab dinner and still being like, oh, you guys are going to like, shame me.

It's like, no, you want ice cream.

That was after I told you you were an idiot and don't ever do that

again, but just so we're clear.

I

forgot, but you actually, you also looked at it.

There is

grace, but there is also truth.

It was hard too.

But that was, anyway, yeah.

It's a hard ask.

Uh.

No, definitely, I think some of what Caleb said, like that shame thing,

like, can become so heavy in you, like once you, like, slip up again and

then you just get flooded with this shame and you're like, I know better.

Like, I shouldn't be, I shouldn't have

done that.

But I think

just being able to just bring it into

the light, to talk about

it

was

super helpful.

And yeah, we do have a lot of safe people here.

Del and Luke are safe and Adam

is safe.

Yeah, there's just so many safe people.

Yeah, and if you are in that place of kind of that shame has just

gripped you,

yeah, I think definitely talk about it,

healing and release from that.

Yeah, absolutely.

A surefire way to kill shame

dead is to,

share it,

confess it and,

yeah, in that

safe place.

Oh, that's something profound to say, and now it's gone.

Oh, I do so

hate it.

Oh, I think,

I think one thing that came out through both your stories is a

desperate, longing to

be known.

That was a huge thing that

drove you, to do what

you did.

And I think that's the point, you know, for

all of us.

You know,

Maia's, you know, Story, not, you know, I'm not so much of a church background,

but, you know, not so dissimilar from your guys stories, but just that

driven by that need to connect and to be known and, There's a very good reason

why that is such a strong drive in us because it's the thing we were created

for so it makes us so very vulnerable in a broken world it makes us so very

vulnerable like we simply cannot live without being known you use babies that

are born and that are never You know, have interaction will literally perish, they

will die because we are so wired for it.

We literally cannot survive without it.

And so if we

can't find, we can't

meet that need in healthy ways, we will seek out other ways to do it, or

we will need to try to anaesthetize

ourselves, from the

pain of the hunger of death.

needing to be known and not having that need met.

So, you know, welcome to

drinking.

And, well, I mean,

the social media is

great, right?

Cause it's

just, I can shut my brain off.

I can get my dopamine hit through the scrolling and I can distract myself.

from this ache of not really being seen, being known.

And, and it starts with that, you know, relationship

with God, being seen

in that space, but that's not enough.

All right.

Sometimes we like to idealize this relationship and it's not, we

weren't designed for that to be.

Otherwise Adam just would have been an Adam and he could have just, I don't

know, reproduced like gremlins did.

Anybody seen gremlins?

You know, they just put water on them and they just pop out

another one.

Mowgli.

Was

it Mowgli?

What's his name?

The cute little one?

Anyway, terrifying movie.

Don't

watch it.

There's a reason why there was an Eve,

right?

And, because that's

what we were created for.

But, yeah, we've got to be aware.

I think we underestimate how vulnerable we are and that we can, how

vulnerable we can be in that space.

And, You know,

the gift of this, the body of Christ is we get to be that for one

another and it's having those, you know, just as like Lou had eyes to

see Summer, in her vulnerable

place when she first started coming, you know, Lou became what Summer

needed in that moment in a healthy way because she had eyes to see.

And so, you know, the other trap we get caught into is we're

always looking inward, right?

Oh, my own pain, and my own loneliness, and my own needs.

That's a surefire way to just turn inward on

yourself and, and it just

becomes more and more

desperate.

Surefire

way to answer that and shut it down is to Look up and go who,

who are you calling me to see?

Who needs to be known?

Who needs to have, you know, just to, oh my gosh, the saddest thing,

and Kieran once, the guy that he works with, this guy's so desperately

lonely that and then

no friends, no family, so what he does on the weekends, he, he goes to shopping

centers and just walks through crowds of people in the, just, just to have

people walk around him because then that lets him know that he's actually there.

Just to, okay, if I'm walking in a line and people have to move around me, at

least then I know I'm actually here.

And it's like, oh.

That's just so, so sad.

Anyway, why did I go down that sad,

sad path?

That's right.

It is that

having the eyes to see.

Yeah.

Cause people can be so, so lonely and like, you know, not just the easy people

either.

Okay.

You know,

sometimes, you know, the awkward people amongst us, not putting any fingers

here and everyone's awkward here.

Everyone's great.

Right.

But we are, the church is the church and we're a mixed

bag.

And, and sometimes

people are awkward because they are so.

Lonely

and broken.

But yeah,

the more we can look out and be for others what we

ourselves need, the greater

freedom and healing we can find in that place.

That has certainly

been my, my experience, through this

as well.

How are we going for time?

What time?

How's everybody holding up?

Oh, Liam's got a

question.

It's not quite mapped out in my head, so I'll see if I can

articulate it.

And without

trying to like diminish people's stories, Because, like, God

is so good and so redemptive.

Caleb would say.

In this context of trying to build a community that does

sexuality well, what would have made a difference in your stories?

Like, if you had this, these moments in like your mid twenties, in the

five or ten years before that, what would have made a difference?

I think

if I

like,

like in that moment when I was like 15, if I had maybe asked someone to

kind of like, you know, like reading the Bible and being like, okay,

I'm, I'm feeling really condemned.

Like,

I'm just feeling like I'm too far gone.

I think having, you know, having someone who I could bring that question to,

or like, probably like a safe person.

So it was like, if I was connected in a youth group and actually

go to my youth leader or like,

But like, yeah, I,

I think just having someone that

I was, like, actually telling and actually like a healthy adult that I would

actually tell, cause I didn't

want to tell my mom,

obviously.

I think she

knew, but then,

yeah, but I think,

I think just having a safe person to tell would have been maybe my

thing, but now I have forgotten the question, so is that the answer?

But yeah, I think definitely having a safe person to be like, Hey, like

you're actually not too far gone.

You're not like, it's actually

okay.

But summer.

So even before that, right.

So that decision to start dating an 18 year old guy and to start, you know,

But that decision that you made on your own mind, that I am now ready to

have sex,

like, can you go, okay, what was the need in you that drove you to that place?

Because it was, was it as simple as, oh, it seems like a good idea?

Or was there some, a need in you that wasn't getting met that made

you vulnerable in that place?

Yeah, I guess, like, this guy definitely made me feel seen and, you know, loved,

like my mum had just recently got

remarried, as well and

he wasn't a great guy and he was a little bit jealous of me and

my mum's relationships because she was like my best friend.

So I think, you know, having, not that me and my mom's relationship got broken

down, but definitely I had walls up and I was like, I'm okay, I'm fine.

Everything's fine.

And I kind of, you know, shut people out.

So then this guy came along and was just like, Oh my gosh,

like, you're so beautiful.

And I just like, I just want to like, take you on a date and like, you know, so he

just made me feel so desired and so loved.

And I hadn't had like a proper boyfriend, like I had like, you know, high

school boyfriends, but he was like a proper one, you know, he was an adult

basically.

So it was like,

you know, just that

it did, it did meet that, meet that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Need to be loved and

seen.

And,

and to be seen as beautiful,

beautiful.

And,

and to be wanted and desired and all of that.

And he's just a bit like a drug, isn't it?

Particularly at that age for a girl.

Yeah.

He's chased me hard and was

just like, like just

pursued me.

And I was like, and I was, The first time I met him, I was quiet, I was

shy and I was like, I saw him and I was like, and I just ran to my room

because he had come to meet your friend.

But would you say it was, right, what made you vulnerable in that moment?

Because all those, all those needs are normal, right?

All those wants to be seen, to be known, to be desired, to be pursued, right?

Do you think what made you vulnerable in that space was that You didn't actually

have language for that kind of thing, like, nobody had actually prepared you.

Around this age, you're likely to find yourself, you know, in a vulnerable place

when, if somebody is paying you this kind of attention, so just be careful.

Yeah, yeah, definitely, there was no language.

There was no, yeah, yeah.

Then, you know, all my friends were already, like, my friend had had sex

at 14, my other friend, like, I had multiple friends that were having sex

with their, you know, boyfriends as well.

So then everyone was just doing it as well.

Yeah.

So it just seemed like the normal progression of where to

go anyway.

So

yeah, yeah, there was definitely no language around it.

Hey, look, you got any thoughts?

Question was, looking back,

how do we essentially create a space where that doesn't, that stuff doesn't happen?

That's the question.

What could have been in your world that might've stopped

you from going down that road?

Is that?

I think Dale

touched on it, like if those that find that like a more

compelling vision of Jesus.

It sounds corny and, and kitschy, but genuinely man.

Like if that, if you can get a 15-year-old and a 55-year-old and

a 75-year-old to see, actually I think CS Lewis might have been the

person closest to do this in Alan.

To see the majesty and yet the compassion of Jesus in a real way.

I, I think

genuinely,

if someone is, is vulnerable and open, I think

genuinely, and then

pairing that with a healthy

community, a safe community,

I think

as I

look back,

that that's, that's what holds me

today.

It is.

Even on the drive here, I was like, man, like I have all this

gunk in my chest and in my heart and then it was the song, right?

Like, Oh, God, like in like the depths of where I make my, where I make, if

I make my bed and shield, even there, your hand is with me, even there you are

with me.

And if at

15, if at 13, if at 14, I had the theology or the not understanding in my head, but

in my, in my heart and my guts of, no, no, no, this is a God that is not far off.

But is there was there when that happened to you breaks when that happens to you.

And loves you as an addict where you are here now,

I think.

Yeah, I think and I think the expression of that, the best expression of

that, what Dale was saying earlier, like, grieving the lack of that is.

When we don't do that as a church, so I think a more.

Tellin

not just theology head knowledge, but a genuine experience.

Jesus and his majesty and his holiness, but also.

His tenderness, his kindness that

is wild, I think that,

man, that will, that, that over

encompasses, sin management

that

eclipses, shame that

eclipses secrecy.

I thinkm,

the closer I get to Jesus, which is the hardest thing in

my life,

the more I'm like, oh man, like you.

Love me, and I suck, and you

love me, and you love

me enough not to let me suck.

So I think that, and then doing that in

community,

can I frame

it this way and see if you agree?

I think one of the greatest problems that we have in the church context,

it gets highlighted with the topic that we're talking about now, is

that we are good at teaching people a lot about God, but that is very

different from actually knowing God.

And there are moments in our lives when simple, not abstract knowledge about

God, you can know all the scripture verses, you can know all your doctrine

and theology, but if you don't know him, all that stuff is not enough to hold you.

In that space, it's not enough to hold you when like proper suffering comes upon you.

Only relational knowing of God will hold you in that space.

And when, you know,

something as powerful as

sex and, all the associated

things that go along with it, it's knowledge about God,

knowledge about, Biblical

ethics and theology and all of that isn't enough.

And so it's that, how do we just not be translating information, but a place

that become, where people actually.

Yeah, Francis Schaeffer

talks about, we've done

like the danger of reformation in a church or in Christianity is that just about

changing or, learning

like doctrinal points and the danger about revival in Christianity is it just becomes

expert, like, emotional

stuff.

But when you pair them

together, that's a

beautiful and dangerous thing.

So, yeah, you're right.

Like, Judas knew Jesus

in the flesh, right?

And yet didn't know Jesus in his heart.

And that's crazy.

Like, we do that.

I think, I guess, for those of us that grew up in church.

So, yeah, 100 percent I agree.

I think,

I love reading.

I'm not, But it's

been, I remember, Maybe like a year ago, I told blue guys outside the parking lot.

I was like, Luke, man, I'm having all this, you know, angst and all this

stuff and I don't know what to read.

I don't know what to do.

He was like, you do nothing, but just stop, but it just come before Jesus.

And I was like, no, man, like, tell me what to read.

Tell me what greater remember.

Tell me what song to walk through.

And Luke is not anti any of that more well read than I am, but he

knew in that moment, it was not more.

head stuff, it was actually my heart that just needed to sit in front of

Jesus and remind my heart like who he is.

And in light of that, who I am.

So I think a bigger understanding of Jesus and a greater understanding

of the dignity of human.

I think for me, that's been scandalous for my sexuality.

Is that like my desires, not all of them, but a lot of them

are great.

And God given

and, you know, we talk about sex, like intercourse, but not, I don't think enough

about sexuality, like the energy that we

all have, that drives

us to do horrible things or really

cool things.

Anyway, normalizing sex, talking, talking about sexuality and human sexuality,

Paul and Colossians talks about.

I toil with this energy, something like that.

And he's talking about the context of preaching the gospel.

But I think it's cool that he uses those words.

A single man trying to remain celibate being like, I wrestle

with this and toil with this energy for the sake of the gospel.

I resonate a little bit with that.

I'm not Paul by any means.

Anyway, I'm going to shut up now.

No,

it's good.

The other

thing that just came to mind as you were talking, just related to that

knowing God is, is in this, and I think this is, we forget this too.

We think we're on my I can think we're on

our own.

We just have

our own strength to

rely on, as we navigate

these, these waters.

And you don't, there is god's grace there for you in this, if you will lean

into it, if you will trust it, if you'll

seek it.

He does not

leave you on

his own, on your own.

And he's not like standing far off waiting for you to sort this out for yourselves

and just exert enough self-control and enough willpower to fix it.

And then he's then.

Gonna draw close?

No, he's close to you in the wrestle and in the struggle and

his grace is sufficient for you in

all of it.

No matter

where you

might be, on the spectrum

of

this and, we forget

that sometimes, I think, in our various different struggles, I

think, so I've just got to rely on my own strength and we don't.

We have His grace there for us.

We have the

Holy Spirit.

And I think

we've got to get more mindful of our Broken nature, which, and

that like you, you touched on the deceptiveness of our own hearts.

So we, sometimes we'll literally do everything but talk to God.

Right?

So, you know, we'll listen to podcasts out the wazoo, we'll read books, we'll listen

to hours and hours of worship music, and we'll literally do everything to avoid

just stopping and being still and being.

And, and all these good things, and, but they're not,

they're not, they won't do it.

Like they're all good.

Right?

And they're all a part of a healthy spiritual life, but they,

none of them can take the place.

They're all, at the end of the day, there's an element of counterfeit.

Even reading something like reading the Bible, it's amazing

how we'll even use that.

We will use the very best of things to do anything to avoid

just being still in the silence.

Amen.

Amen.

with God.

Yep.

But that's where you know him.

Be still and know that I am

God.

Should we leave it there?

No?

Anything final?

Going once, going twice, going three times?

Thank you everybody.

Thanks for coming.

Yeah, did so well.