Critical Conversations

Hey everyone, this is Josh from Encounter Church

Henley and thanks so much for tuning into our

podcast. Our prayer is that through this podcast

you can have an encounter with Jesus that'll

change your life. And now get ready for an inspiring

message from our preaching team. Well, it's a

great privilege to join you if you don't know

me. My claim to fame is that I'm Tim Ashes and

Steph's dad. That's my only claim to fame really.

and I'm grateful for the opportunity to come

and spend some time in the Word with you today.

It's a great privilege and it's been a joy to

sit on the sidelines and hear stories about what

God has been doing in your midst. It's really,

really exciting and a part of my role as I sit

on the church planting task group for Generate

and I hear what's happening across all the church

plants from Generate and always excited. to hear

what God's doing and and the leadership gods

are raising up and you guys have got I Might

be a little bit biased, but you've got some pretty

good leadership Amongst you and I want to honor

them today text is amazing. So Look if you knew

my son when he was a teenager you would believe

in miracles That's the the wonder of the man

that he is today. Well, he... You know, Tex has

pumped me up. Thanks, Tex, for that. That was

really good. And my son has given me a passage

that really has very little Holy Spirit stuff

in it, so... We got that out of the way early,

so that was good. That was good. Hey, we're going

to be talking today because you've been... working

on a series called Sorted Out. We're going to

be talking about something that we call critical

conversations. Now, I don't know if you know

what that is, but a critical conversation, I

can sum it up as a conversation that you don't

want to have. Amen. And when people go to me,

Barry, you're a Reverend, what do you do in a

church? Actually, I had a guy that I played basketball

with. I said, what do you do for a living? He

goes, I'm a cleaner or something like that. I

can't remember what he was doing. He goes, what

do you do? And I go, I'm a pastor at a church.

And he goes, people get paid to do that. But

when I get asked what I do, I say, most of my

work is actually having conversations that I

don't want to have. And I've had a week of it,

of sitting down with people who are grieving.

people that are lost, and it's a privilege to

do that, but boy, it's hard work. And having

conversations with people with marriages are

breaking up. And sometimes, you know, when you're

sitting there, all you want to do is pull them

close, say, I love you, and then smack them really

quickly across the face. But that's not the advice

that I'm going to give you today. Yeah, thanks.

So we're going to be talking about those critical

conversations that you don't want to have. And

I'm going to start by sharing a story about my

mum. My mum's 85. She's the most active 85 year

old that you've ever met in your life. She still

does tours as a guide in the potato gardens at

85. And she does back -to -back tours in 85,

sorry, 85, 35 degree heat. She goes, Barry, I

felt a little bit tired at the end of the second

one. I said, just stop doing them. Anyway, towards

the end of last year, I started to hear that

my mum was talking about me behind my back. And

I don't know about you, but it's never a good

thing when your mum is talking to everybody else

in the family but you, about you, and it's not

the things about you you want her to be talking

about. And so I went and visited my brother,

and look, I'm a big guy, as you probably can

see. There's nothing really hiding here. And

I've had a journey with trying to let go of my

weight. I tell it to leave, it just is stubborn,

it's staying at home. And my brother turns to

me, he goes, I thought you were bigger than what

you are, because I only see him once a year.

I go, what do you mean? Oh, your mum made it

out like you're like 500 kilograms or something.

And we go, OK, that's interesting. And then I

hear other bits and pieces of the family start

to talk about how... My mum has been talking

negatively about my back. Now, the family dynamics

is that I'm the only one who visits my mum. I'm

the only one who goes regularly and cares for

her. My other brother's in Sydney. He'll ring

her occasionally. My other brother in Adelaide

will only come if my mum manipulates him into

coming. So you get the picture. And I'm thinking

to myself... What do I do with mum? Here she

is saying stuff that I, you know, she can just

say to my face, I'm not really easily offended,

but for some reason she's sharing it with everybody

else. But at the same time, with every other

relationship in the family, she's walking on

eggshells. And I don't want to walk on eggshells

with me. And there's a part of me that's really

angry that she doesn't actually love me enough

to tell me, to my face. And then there's another

part of me that goes, well, if I talk to her

about this, this is going to probably maybe damage

our relationship or it's going to... You know,

I understand the complexities. If you're a teenager,

you probably don't because you speak like that

about your parents all the time. But for me,

it was a critical moment and I found myself getting,

as I thought about it, getting wound up more

and more about... I'm the only one who cares

for her. And yet she does this. And as I was

talking to my lovely bride about it and she's

going, oh Barry, should you say something? I

realised that I had to. I had to for my sake

because I was thinking about it more than I should.

And that's always a really good sign that you

need to have a conversation. And I did it because

I didn't really want her to continue the habit

that she got into. And so I said, how am I going

to have, Lord, how am I going to have this conversation

that I need to have with my mother? And somehow

it all worked out OK. And so we were... in a

conversation and God gave me this idea. And I

said to her, I said, Mom, I'm sorry that I've

let you down. She goes, what do you mean? I'm

sorry that you feel like you have to say this

stuff to other people and that you didn't feel

secure enough to come and say it to me. And from

there, there was this conversation about how

she was feeling and what she was doing and what

was happening with it. And came to a point where

now, I think she'll be very hesitant to speak

to someone in the family about stuff that she

can talk to me, but at the same time, she knows

that she's loved and that she hasn't broken the

relationship. Now, my mum's not a Christian.

So that journey is always a delicate one for

me. But many of us have relationships in our

lives that we need to have a critical conversation

in. Whether it's at home or at work or in your

study or something, there's always going to be,

and if you haven't had one, one is coming around

the corner pretty quick. we need to have a conversation.

Now, many of us have this fear that it's going

to go badly. And I have that fear every time.

And usually the fear and the reality are two

very different things. If you're someone who

has journeyed with critical conversations, you

know that when you actually get into it, most

of the time they work out okay. Most of the time

they're life -giving. But the thought that goes

through your head before you get to that point

is always more serious. Like the world is going

to burn. You're going to drop off the end of

the planet. Whatever else is going to happen

is going to happen. But. And so we find it, I

think, a bit easier. To tuck it away. And go,

you know what, I'm not going to have this conversation.

I'm just going to bury my feelings about that

person deep down in my heart. and just pretend

like it didn't happen. And that's an easy option,

okay? It's very easy to do because the fear seems

like it's insurmountable and it's just easy to

say, oh, don't worry about it. It was just a

couple of words that my mum said, surely I can

get over it. And all of a sudden we find Our

stomach's churning. We find it a little bit harder

to go to sleep at night. We find that we're a

little bit sharper with that person when we see

them, a little bit more bitter towards them in

our own private lives, and we start to drift

away from our relationships. And sometimes it's

not fear that does it, or fear leads us to leaving

the conversation longer than we should leave

it. And then all of a sudden having the conversation

goes, well, you know, it was six months ago.

Are they even going to remember it? Is it going

to be worth it? I don't know. And you talk yourself

out of it because it feels like it was something

that happened so long ago. But I want to put

to you today, Church, that if it's sitting in

your soul, it needs to be dealt with. If it's

sitting in your heart and you have not let go

of it, then you need to have a critical conversation.

And this is why. Because if you bury it in your

heart, if you lead it too long, if you allow

that bitterness to grow, then the voice of God

will shrink in your life. And I say this because

God speaks through the heart. If you're struggling

to hear God's voice at the moment, that's probably

because there is stuff inside of your life that

you have not yet emptied for God's voice to be

able to rise up. Doesn't mean that God can't

speak. I'm just saying it becomes more difficult.

There's a reason why Jesus, in the Sermon on

the Mount, spends so much time talking about

the matters of the heart. And that the Lord's

prayer and fasting is all in the middle of that.

Because God speaks through our heart. And if

our heart is cluttered, if our heart has been

swept under a rug and all our emotions are under

there all bubbling away, then the voice of God

becomes very hard, very quickly. And so Jesus

is particularly interested in us making sure

that we're dealing with the conversations that

we need to deal with so that we can get to a

point where we can grow and move forward. If

it was easy, you all would be doing it. But it's

not. If we have those conversations, those critical

conversations, a couple of things happen according

to scripture. First of all, we give the other

person an opportunity to grow. When we go and

have these conversations, we give them an opportunity

to grow, an opportunity for our relationships

and our friendships to strengthen, opportunities

for that connection to go deeper. And so I want

to put to you today through a bit of scripture

about what and how God wants us to deal with

critical conversations. And we're going to turn

to a Bible passage now where Jesus is going to

have a critical conversation with Peter. Remember,

Peter, love the God. Just, you know, Can I hop

out the boat kind of guy? I love that. I love

that energy that you know, but just as Jesus

was Proclaiming the Lord's Supper Peter said,

you know what Lord everyone else is going to

deny you but not me He makes a declaration of

pride and of faith and Jesus holds him up right

there and says before the night is is through,

you're gonna deny me three times. And of course,

we know the story leading up to Easter, that's

exactly what Peter does. And this is the conversation

that Jesus has with Peter after he's resurrected,

after he's denied him, and to bring Peter back.

into relationship with him. So we're reading

from John chapter 21 and we're going to go, I

John 21 · chapter mention

think, five to 17. You can pull out your Bibles

if you like. You can do that. Just a suggestion

if you want to. So they've gone fishing, gone

back to doing what they know how to do. And they're

out there and they haven't caught anything, which

is a familiar story, isn't it? Fishermen out

there not catching anything. And they're coming

in and they see Jesus on the shore with a fire,

with some fish and some bread. And this is where

we pick it up. Jesus said to them, children,

do you have any fish? They answered him, no.

Then he said to them, cast the net on the right

side of the boat and you will find some. So right

there, it's going right back to the image, isn't

it, of him calling the disciples? Right back

to the very beginning when he says, I'll make

you fishes of men. He's calling him back. And

so they cast it and now they were not able to

haul it in because of the quantity of fish. And

the disciple whom Jesus loved, which was John,

therefore said to Peter, it is the Lord. And

when Simon Peter heard it was the Lord, he put

on his outer garment, for he had stripped it

off for work and threw himself into the sea.

The other disciples came in the boat, dragging

a net full of fish, for they were not far off

from land. They're about a hundred yards off,

whatever that is, it's American. And when they

got out on land, They saw a charcoal fire in

place and fish laid on it and bread. And Jesus

said to them, bring some of the fish that you

have caught. And so Simon Peter went aboard and

hauled the net ashore full of large fish, 153

of them. Someone bothered to count. And although

there were so many, the nets did not break. And

that was another reference. And Jesus said to

them, come and have some breakfast. Now none

of the disciples dared ask him, who are you?

For they knew it was the Lord and Jesus came

and took the bread and gave it to them and so

with the fish. This is now the third time that

Jesus was refilled to the disciples after he

was raised from the dead. One was Thomas and

the other was in a closed room. And when they

had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter,

Simon son of John. Do you love me more than these?

And he said to them, yes, Lord, you know that

I love you. And he said to him, feed my lambs.

He said a second time, Simon son of John, do

you love me? And he said, yes, Lord, you know

that I love you. And he said to them, tend my

sheep. Next slide. And he said to him the third

time, Simon, son of John, do you love me? And

he used a different word for love there. And

Peter was grieved because he said to him a third

time, do you love me? And he said to him, Lord,

you know everything. You know that I love you.

And Jesus said, feed my sheep. So here we have

this story that that we see Jesus wanting to

bring Peter back into a relationship, not just

with him and Jesus, but with ministry and mission.

Because really, Peter had done his dash. He said

that he would never do something and then he

did it. He'd broken the relationship. He'd broken

trust. He'd broken everything that he said that

he wouldn't broke. And Jesus... comes and wants

to bring him back into an understanding for him.

I don't think Jesus's love for Peter changed

through the denial. It wasn't Jesus who needed

this relationship. It was Peter who needed the

relationship and needed this sort of conversation.

And we know that Jesus is wanting to have no

expectation of where Peter is at because he doesn't

call him Simon Peter. He calls him Simon, son

of John. That's the name that he calls him at

the beginning of John's gospel before he becomes

a disciple. Peter is the change of name that

Jesus gives him to anoint him into ministry.

So he's coming with no expectation that Peter

is all on board. He sees some enthusiasm with

the nets and the casting out and the fish and

Peter wanting to jump into the lake, but he doesn't

assume that Peter's all back on board. And so

he comes to him with a sense of humility saying,

where are you at, Peter? He's not prejudging

what's happening in Peter's heart. But at the

same time, he's showing Peter by telling him

to cast the net on the other side, that he is

still with him, that he's still for him, he's

still going to do miracles with him. And so there's

this beautiful thing that starts to happen where

Jesus is starting to take Peter back to the beginning,

but to still know that he is with him and for

him. And then he goes on to pull, I don't know,

I always imagine that Jesus pulls Peter to the

side. I can't imagine sitting around the fire

and go, oh, Peter, do you love me? You know,

it just doesn't sort of fit the scene in my heart

anyway. But I think that there is a sense where

Jesus pulls Peter apart and he goes, hey, buddy,

where's your heart at? Do you still love me?

He's not assuming that he does, but he questions

whether he does. And then Simon Peter starts

to show that he does. And he asks him again and

it moves something in him. And when he asks for

the third time, something breaks in him. Here

was a guy who was proudly proclaiming that he

would never deny Christ. And now he's coming

to a point where he's going, Lord, you know all

things. He's not going to proudly proclaim, Jesus,

I will never do this again. There's something

about the experience that brings him to a fresh

place of humility. Something about the experience

that helps him know that he's not beyond. sinning

or being broken or, you know, he once was proud

and now he's not. And so in this questioning,

Jesus is bringing Peter along on a journey of

saying, where is your heart at? What is your

motivation? And then he commissions him. That's

what he's doing when he's saying, feed my sheep,

tend my lambs. You say, I'm gonna make you fish

as a man, that's evangelism, but what I want

you to focus on now is discipleship. Feed my

sheep, tend my lambs, care for them. He's giving

a reactivation to Peter to enter back into ministry

and back into what he's been asked to do. And

so we see this beautiful image of Jesus having

a critical conversation that brings Peter back

on board. We know from history that he becomes

the leader of the church. He's held high from

really from this point onwards. He's the one

who preaches the sermon to 3000 people get saved.

I'm still waiting for that to happen to me. You

know, he's the one who does the first miracle

after the Holy Spirit. He's the one who launches

the church further. And he does it out of not

a sense of guilt and shame that would have happened

if Jesus didn't have this conversation, but out

of certainty and out of love and out of knowing

that God is with him because he did. And that's

the reality of what critical conversations are

meant to be about. They're meant to bring us

to a better place. And although we fear them

and although they seem big and scary and although

they seem like they're too beyond, Jesus is really

quite hot on the fact that we should engage on

them. Look at Matthew 5 to 25 for us. It says,

So if you're offering your gift at the altar,

and there remember that your brother slash sister

has something against you, leave your gifts before

the altar and go. And first become reconciled

with your brother and sister, and then come and

offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your

accuser while you are going to court, lest your

accuser hands you over to the judge. and the

judge to the guard, and you'll be put in prison.

Here Jesus is saying that you need to deal with

the relationship breakdowns or the struggles

that you have in your life. And as a pastor,

I've got to do it with my mum. I've got to do

it with my kids. I've got to do it with my work.

I've got to do it with my staff. I'm going to

do it with my congregation as well. I have to

do it with everyone that I'm in relationship

with. And the bottom line is healthy churches

are born where disagreements aren't swept under

the carpet but are dealt with quickly. And I

say to my church, it's not a matter of if but

it's a matter of when that you get upset with

me or the leadership or something that's happening

in the church. And the issue is not that you

get upset. The issue is what you do when you

get upset. You're gonna get upset. I know me

well enough to know that it's only a matter of

time until people are upset with me. I am gonna

say something stupid. I'm gonna do something

stupid. I'm gonna do something hurtful. It's

just a matter of time. Tim's coming back in a

couple of weeks. He can mop up the fallout from

tonight. But... So it's not an if. Just like

it's not a if that you're never going to have

an argument in your family. How many people have

never had an argument in their family? Yeah,

that's exactly what I thought. My daughter's

in the room. So... And she didn't put up her

hand. You know, it's not when, it's if. No, sorry,

it's not if, it's when. Just checking that you're

listening. And so it's what we do after it happens

is the important thing. And a healthy church

is a church where when people are, when you get

upset, that you go to the person and deal with

it quickly. It doesn't mean that your feelings

don't matter. It means that your feelings matter

more than you know. And they matter so much that

we gotta deal with them. and you've got to deal

with them and God wants to deal with them. So

it's when this happens. Now there's something

that people tend to do to get around critical

conversations and it's called triangulation.

Now you might... I don't know what that means,

but you will know it when I describe it to you.

It's when I've got an issue with text, so I go

to Ash and say, Ash, I've got an issue with text.

Can you speak to text for me and let him know?

It sounds like a schoolyard, but we still do

it as adults, don't we? Let's talk about your

shoes. So... I know he's got a thing or two.

You know, that's triangulation, and that doesn't

help. You know, I've had people come to me and

say, such and such is angry with you, okay? And

I go to the person, I say, you know, who says

they're angry with me, because I like to, in

straight lines, not in triangles. And I say,

I don't want to talk to you about it. They go,

well, where does that leave me? I want to reconcile.

But if you don't want to talk to me, what do

I do? I've got nowhere to go other than to say

I'm ready to speak to you when you are ready

to speak to me. But those people are the ones

who bury it under the carpet, put their emotions

down and don't deal with it. So I've got a couple

of... A couple of ideas for you on how to have

a critical conversation. Are you ready to go

here with me? All right. And this is to be done

in church. This is to be done at home. This has

got to be done in all sorts of ways. The very

first thing is you have to do your own work.

So before you have... your conversation with

someone else, you've got to check your own heart.

So before I came to my mum, I had to forgive

her. You heard me, forgive her. Now I only needed

to forgive her because it was such a big thing

in me. If I didn't care about what she thought,

then I probably didn't need to forgive her, but

I did because she's my mum. And mum's words always

have a little bit more weight, don't they? You've

got to do your own work first. You've got to

let go of your judgment of the other person.

Imagine if Jesus came to Peter going, you mongrel.

You said you weren't going to deny me, but you

did. How dare you? The chances of reconciliation.

are about minus 20 at that stage. OK, because

Pete's walls are up. You know, he's defensive.

He goes, well, you know, you don't understand.

I was under pressure and Jesus would have come

back. Yeah, but I was getting whipped. Oh, but

I thought. You got to do your own work first.

Pray through your forgiveness, work through your

judgment and let it go. And then you can have

the conversation that you need to have a conversation

with. But if you don't do that work first, you

come with all kinds of baggage to the conversation

and the conversation will never go as well as

what you want it to be. The second point, come

to it with humility. Don't come... wanting your

own outcome to be achieved. Come wanting to seek

connection and reconnection. Don't come demanding

that they change. Jesus doesn't come to Peter

and goes, do better. He comes and says, do you

love me? You know, do you love me more than this

job of fishing? Do you love me more than the

other disciples? Do you love me more than these?

We don't know what the these are. But Jesus was

just saying, do you love me? He's asking a question.

He's wanting to seek the person's heart. He's

not coming demanding that Peter does anything.

He's coming wanting to see where his heart is.

And if we want to come to a place of seeing reconciliation

with the person that we have issues with, then

we've got to come with a place of humility. Not

demanding that someone change, but letting them

be who they are. And seeking a connection. where

they are. The third thing is deal with it quickly.

We saw that in the Matthew passage. That is the

longer you leave it the harder it becomes to

have the conversation. I had a great mentor in

this. I've had a few mentors growing up in ministry

but there was one guy called Darren who was a

great Christian example for me but one day I

was at a meeting And we're in this conversation,

and just as the conversation started, one of

the persons says, oh, Darren, do you know that

you offended that guy who's just walking off?

And Darren could have gone, oh, tough luck. But

Darren chased the guy down, ran across the yard

or whatever it was. It was where you had your

launch actually at Woodville Uniting. So there

you go. And he tapped him on the shoulder and

he says, look, did I do something to offend you?

He wasn't prepared. And I knew that of Darren

all the way through. He was never prepared to

let an issue stay there very long. He would deal

with it quickly. And I think Jesus' words are

here very powerfully. When we bury it for too

long, it festers, it becomes an issue. But to

deal with it quickly, then you can put your head

on the pillow at night and you know that you've

done everything that you can do. And the last

one is seek understanding. And reconciliation.

That's what really critical conversations are

all about. Is about... getting out the way and

helping the relationship move forward in some

form or another. So it doesn't matter where we

are in life, whether at home or at study, critical

conversations need to be a part of our life.

And it takes guts. It takes courage to have them.

I get asked, Barry, does it get easier? And every

time I say no, not once is it easier than others.

Every single time my fear jumps in. Every single

time I go, is there a different way? Every time

I think it's going to go worse than what it does.

But I need to put that aside to have the conversation.

And for me, I ask myself this question, what

will happen if I don't? What will happen if I

don't have this conversation? And as a pastor

of the church, if I don't have critical conversations,

then bad behavior keeps on happening within the

life of my church. If I don't have these conversations,

then people will get bitter towards me. And all

of a sudden, I will have people speaking behind

my back about me that may or may not be true.

If I don't have critical conversations, then

all of a sudden I become the third son. who my

mother doesn't talk to. If I don't have a critical

conversation, if I don't see where it's gonna

land, then I'm not motivated to do it. And so

I want you to ask yourself the question, what

will happen? Because I can tell you a lot of

mental health is unprocessed emotions with unprocessed

conversations. Not all, but a lot. And that's

where it normally starts. And so there's all

kinds of things that you've got to ask yourself

about. What will it cost me if I don't? Will

it cost you your mental health? Will it cost

the bad behaviour? Will it cost people speaking

poorly about you? What will it cost? And then

you've got to ask yourself how you're prepared

to pay the cost. And I've got to say, every time

I'm not. I'm not prepared to lay in bed at night

with an argument going around in my head about

how someone's hurt me. I'm just not prepared

to count the cost. I like sleep too much. Particularly

in the morning, not so much late at night. I'm

not prepared to count the cost of a church that

is in disarray and is a bitter with each other.

I'm not prepared to count that cost. I'm not

prepared to count the cost of having a mother

who doesn't have a son to talk to. I'm just not

prepared to do it. So ask yourself, are you prepared

to continue to pay the cost? Because if you don't

deal with the critical conversations, it stays

with you. And you can bury it and you cannot

think about it, but as soon as you see that person

again, as soon as you hear their name, as soon

as something happens to remind you of it, it

will all flood back. And it will get worse and

worse and worse. Are you prepared to pay the

cost? I'm not. This is a discipleship issue.

This is what Jesus really says, if you're going

to have relationships, this is what you need

to do. And he's doing it not because he wants

to make your life hard, because he wants to make

your life easy. He doesn't want you to be worried

about this stuff. He just wants you to deal with

it. And we've got to get our fear and our anxiety

and all the things that prevent us from doing

these things. And we need to crucify them with

Jesus on the cross and step into a brave world

of having critical conversations. Thanks so much

for tuning into this week's message. If you felt

challenged or need prayer, we'd love to hear

from you on Instagram at encounterhenley. Or

if you're interested in how you can support this

ministry, please go to our website encounteradelaide

.com .au. Thanks again for listening. God bless

you.