Venture Unfiltered #11: Enneagram

Venture. Oh my goodness, we are on episode what episode? What number

is this now? Twelve? I think it's episode eleven eleven. Welcome to

Venture Unfiltered PB, Pastor Brandon, Pastor Tony here. Oh my gosh,

there was a lot going on. I don't know about you, Pastor Brandon,

but we got a lot. Actually, maybe i'll let you unpack this.

I feel like a lot of people called you and I out recently after

last week's podcast. Yeah, well do before we even get into that,

do you want to just fill everybody in out what we've been doing this week?

Or do you want to do that afterwards? Let's see it afterwards.

I'll take care of business after. Immediately after the podcast hit and people started

downloading it, the number one question I got, in fact I easily got

it ten times was I can't believe you really didn't know who Lizzo was.

I was worried people who are going to be upset about things I said about

Donald Trump? But instead we're upset I didn't know who Lizzo was. No

one addressed that we talked about Donald Trump or Joe Biden. The flak I

got is people said every time Pastor Bando talked about something he's passionate about.

Tony, you were very disengaged when we talked about Pac twelve football. I

just went, uh huh, cool, that was it? That was the

whole time? Did you I find it? I also found it kind of

fascinating that nobody had anything to say about the Jason Aldean song. No one

would never happen in a small town. No one cared. No one really

cared. Jason Aldean. Do you know he's coming here when I don't know?

David's going to the concert. He invited me and I said, no,

Wow, I actually like Jason Aldean. You and I could go again.

It could be like a repeat of when we were in Houston together.

We could compare the Houston country music crowd. Yes, the Seattle country musical

wear boots. Could you imagine a Palestinian man wearing cowboy boots? These boots

were made for walking. The other thing that people talk to me about as

they said they were they were making fun of us about what was it?

It was? What was the big hot topic we hit on? It was,

Oh my gosh, why am I blinking right now? Wasn't Lizzo Barbie

movie? Yeah, everyone's like I can't believe you haven't watched Barbie movie.

Yeah, I can't believe I haven't watched Barbie movie. I'm like a dude

who's straight and loves his wife and hasn't gone out of his way to go

watch the Barbie movie. I don't know. This is awkward because you did

watch a barb movie. Okay, oh lord, hey, let's talk through

business. It has been a great week, but yet a mentally exhausting week.

PB. You want to unpack what we did this week. This is

our yearly staff training week. We bring the entire pastoral staff together, use

it for a few days, sometimes travel to other locations, visit churches,

go to seminars, and this year we decided to do a seminar at the

central campus. So the first day with staff planning strategizing, which really excited

in the weeks to come to share our future big expansion plans with the church.

Then the next day we had several pastors of large churches in our region

that we have relationship with that maybe you'd say some of the churches are like

sister churches to venture, and the pastors came in and they would share for

forty five minutes I didn't even really give them a specific topic, but they

fit really well, like each one hit on a different area and then we

would ask questions and that was incredible. And then today you and I sat

in basically an eight hour seminar about the aniogram. Which so the aniogram is

interesting because my wife was on an inniogram kick, like way before COVID,

read all the books and then started typing everyone, and then you know,

we'd be on date night and she'd kind of say, oh, there's such

a four, which that used to get so under my skin because I'm like,

who are you to type me? You don't know me? She wasn't

wrong. But we have a very special guest with us today. We're gonna

unpack the aniogram on this podcast, and we're going to actually go even a

little further. We're gonna unpack Pastor Brandon's aniogram his number. So we'll talk

about all your hurts, habit hangups and what why you love what you do

and whatnot. Well, before we introduce our guest, I would say,

especially Di and I, we consider ourselves absolute experts in the disc assessment.

Yes, and we have used the disc at venture easily for the last twelve

years at least. And I have always been able to categorize everybody if they're

D, I, S C. I am one hundred percent D, one

hundred percent I. My wife is a high high h D and then her

secondary is I, and were categories everybody, so really familiar with that.

But what I discovered was that if you are a millennial or a gen zer,

you don't use the disc assessment. You actually have no idea what the

discuss. But you are an expert in your own mind on the inneogram.

And I always like to say this that sometimes we listen to a bunch of

podcasts, we read a bunch of blogs, we take a bunch of online

tests, and we think we're an expert on something. And I like to

say it, you know enough to make you dangerous, meaning that you know

enough to think you know everything and confuse everybody else. So when I started

hearing about this ineogram, and I don't know anything about it, and people

tell me, Brandon, you're a this wing, that arrow that, and

I don't know what they're talking about because there's nine of them, I thought,

I'm gonna bring in an expert. I'm gonna bring in someone who's job

and professionate is to take a team through the aneagram and talk about group dynamics

with that. And that leads us to our guests. Do you like to

introduce them? We have a very special guest all the way from Indiana.

Not Pawnee, Come on, not Pawnee, all the way from Indiana,

Ben pastor Ben. Yeah, you remind me your last name stern Key,

stern Key, pastor Ben stern Key, all the way from Indiana. What

city and what church? Ye? I'm Indianapolis area and I co pastor a

church that I planted there about eight years ago called the Table. That's awesome.

We have one of our campuses is in Federal Way and it is called

the Table, and they literally meet at a table every every Wow. We

don't we don't have I mean we we we have a table, a communion

table. That's awesome. Yeah. I think it's a great name for a

church. It's trending. I think it is a communion table. It's a

great table to have raider role. Raiders role. Okay, So in Indiana,

I didn't ask any of this when you were teaching the seminar before I

introduced you. Some mighty as well, do it here live spontaneously? Where'd

you go to college? I got my undergrad at Taylor University. Okay,

they're in Indiana. They actually had a campus in Fort Wayne. We moved

out to I grew up in Minnesota and moved out to Indiana Fort Wayne,

Indiana in ninety eight. Nineteen ninety eight, wow, with a wife and

a one year old to finish up my degree. I got my doctorate at

Asbury in Kentucky. Yeah. Yeah. It drove through Indiana many times to

go to Chicago, where it's fun and you drive in an absolute straight line

through cornfields on the left and right for five hours. There's not much there

unless until you get to you know, Indianapolis. It's quite a bit there.

So are you a Pacer fan? I? You know, I'm happy

for Indiana sports teams to win things, but I'm not like a big fan

of of India. You know, I don't follow Indiana sports. You don't

follow any sports. I don't follow Indiana sports. I follow Premier League Soccer's

right and rowing me again? Your team Liverpool Liverpool? Oh yeah yeah.

If you said Manchester United, I would have thrown down this headset and walked

down said, Pebe, you do the interview, I'm out. Yeah,

so thank god we're on the same page. There there we go. Yeah,

okay, perfect, yeah yeah, before this entire conversation denigrates into a

conversation about soccers, Brandon Henry will soccer. Get I loved watching my son

play soccer, and I played soccer in high school. But I just can't

handle watching any sport on TV that can end in a tie. It's just

sports are not supposed to end in time. Because you're watching the MLS.

MLS is hot, garbage, whatever. Okay, real quick, Well you

so people thinking through right now, Church Planter, Indiana, how do you

know that in your gram? So? Well what got you into that?

Yeah? So I was introduced the Instagram about twenty years ago through like I

think, my sister brought a book on vacation, you know, and it

was it was ended up being all we talked about on this vacation, and

I just I just continued to explore it. I continued to investigate it.

I found it extremely helpful in my own my own life, my own spiritual

growth, my closest relationships, you know, with my wife and with my

kids, with the people that I worked with Yeah, and just found it

tremendously insightful, a really really deep and helpful tool. And so I just

continue to explore it to to explore it, and started very informally teaching others

about it. Eventually led our first church plant, led them through kind of

thinking through you know, what each of our types was, and so awesome.

We just found it really helpful. So I've just been I don't know

if exploring it, I mean somewhat informally, but eventually dove into it deep

enough that people started asking me to teach them about it. One of I

didn't prep you for this one. All good. Yeah. One of the

things that we have talked about relatively often on this podcast is Christians in general

are very generic propensity to be against anything we don't understand. I think a

typical lifelong, second, third, fourth, fifth generation Christian if they hear

of something and they've never heard it before and they don't understand it, they

immediately think that it's wrong, demonic, some some sort of evil or worldly.

And surprisingly, when I shared that we were having an expert in the

indiagram test the different people on our staff and the ineogram and that the group

dynamics. I actually people ask me about whether or not it is demonic.

Yeah, you had to have heard that before the numbers and all that.

The numbers and you look at the symbol and it looks a little suspicious,

right, you know the symbol of the yeah that you know, is that

a pentagram whichs on there right? Yeah? Yeah, people ask that all

the time, and yeah, I you know, I haven't. I've been

working with it for twenty years and I don't think I'm demon possessed yet.

Others, you know, there are demons behind the three yeah, so but

yeah, no, I mean all joking aside. People are suspicious of it

and they're they're nervous about it. I and I make no you know,

I said this in the seminar today, but it's not necessarily a Christian tool,

doesn't actually come from the Bible, but we but I think it can

be used christianly, and I think it can be used as a tool that

gives us some spiritual wisdom, you know, about how the Gospel can interact

with our lives, how we can be more aware of what God is doing

in and around us, And there's all kinds of other stuff that we use

every single day that isn't in the Bible. From the Bible, you know,

including like automobiles, you know what I mean, Like, I just

this is part of my point, is just that automobiles, Like, yeah,

that's not in the Bible, And how do we know we're not you

know, how do we know they're not demonic? Yeah? I mean again,

yeah, that is a great thought. I one of the things I

think Christians we need to can I say this, that we need to grow

up with is just stopping against things that we don't understand. The world is

full of new things for us to learn and discover, and and here we

are the eneogram. But here my favorite thing is when I see Christians repost

their horoscopes on Facebook. Oh I haven't seen that, but they have a

bone to pick about the integram Like well, yeah, okay, I don't

follow the people on Facebook. Oh yeah, I minister in a unique area,

Pastor Brandon. So anyways, let's unpack the Instagram. So today you

came in, Ben, you and we all took our tests, and you

really helped each of us understand what numbers we are. I kind of already

knew what I was. So if you're listening like, I wonder what Tonia

is. You probably don't care. I'm a three wing two. I want

success. I want to be well respected in the eyes of people, which

obviously is birth from things from childhood and security. But you really helped us

today understand our part in God's mission and taking the Gospel into the world,

and why these numbers help us. I would love to today. I think

all the gals are going to get a kick out of this aerial shout out

Andy Dobridge. I know she's listening right now. They're gonna love to hear

what's Pastor Brandon's number and really unpack that. Pebe, can we can we

go there raider's role? Okay? Sure, as we as we get to

mind doing for everybody else's amusement, should we hit on some staff? Yeah?

Let me let me ask you specifically about do you have the staff's report

with you? I mean, I already remember a handful of but I want

to make sure we have the report so we can really So, Okay,

here's a hot take everyone. Pastor Claire Dayton, our young adults pastor.

She forever thought she was a three. Today she had this revelation she is

a six. She had no idea she happens that way. She almost cried.

I after hearing what they all meant and were, I knew that I

was either a seven or an eight, and I really really, really really

wanted to be a seven. I like seven, but I had to be

honest as he went through the different dynamics of how they group and deal with

conflict. I accept the fact that that I am an eight. What did

Nicole Butcher score? Nicole Butcher is a one, So describe what a one

is. So the one is often called the perfectionist or the reformer. I

actually prefer reformer sounds cooler. I'm a one as well. But yeah,

ones are are They're part of what's called the body triad, and so they

are They're concerned with autonomy and kind of being self directed in general. And

ones are, yeah, trying to take a stance of reforming. They're trying

to improve the world. They are seeking to make a difference in the world.

They're seeking to have integrity. They're driven by a desire to be good

and to avoid criticism. So that's general a pick. You described ones in

a way that might have been the greatest description of what it is like to

work with Nicole. Now, I have long said that Nicole is my right

arm. She helps make dreams come true. But Nicole, if you are

on Nicole's bad side, the whole office stays clear of Nicole. And he

described ones as I saw you laugh so hard at the state. It was

the best statement. I wrote it down. That two times ones have exasperated

annoyance towards everyone around them. Yes, And that one of the things that

ones love to do is instill wisdom in those that are ignorant. Yes,

I feel like I am here frequently the ignorant having wisdom instilled in me.

Yes. Yes, yeah, we ones. We do have an unfortunate tendency

to position ourselves as teachers, as parents, as those who know best.

And it can be a little bit insufferable. I think I have some ones

on my board too that could be Now it's important to say, I think

with the enneagram, each of these types one is not better than the other.

And each of these types have potential for great gifts to be given to

any community, and they also have potential to do a lot of destruction.

And so every type you know exists on a range of unhealthy to healthy,

and the goal in identifying your type is just to identify kind of you,

what your deep motivations are, and then from there move up to a healthier

place. And I think that's what I love today, Ben about your teaching

is that there's like no shame in your number exactly, it is what it

is. You embrace it and you work with it. You better understand yourself.

And I think for anyone listening who's like, man, I'm a four,

I just don't want to be, embrace who God made you to be.

Embrace all your shortcomings, your successes and growing them, growing understanding yourself

as you understand God. More so I agree with that. Let's keep going.

What about David Diaz. He's going to be so sad if we don't

say his name. It is true David, Yes, David Diaz. He

he scored as a three, and as we walked through that today he so.

One of the things I say about tests is tests can give you an

idea of where you might want to start to explore this. But the best

way to understand the innagram is really is really learned the whole system, learn

how it works. And then and then I think as you grow in self

awareness and your understanding of how the innagram works, then you can settle on.

Okay, I think this this is the type that resonates for me.

But David did resonate with that, the description of the He was so happy

when you call him out. He stood on his chair, he was helping.

He wanted to yep, that's that's threes for you. You know you

said you're a three. Uh yeah, Tony, so you know what a

little bit of what. I'm thirty two though now, so like I'm a

three, but like when I was a twenty three old youth, Pastor yeah,

I take my shirt off and say look at me now, I'm like,

oh yeah, I think Also Pastor Kayley scored as a three. She

did what I found interest. You have nine different categories that people fall into,

and when you've never heard this before, it's it's hard to remember nine.

I mean, most people have trouble remembering three things. And so there

was always like one word that I've remembered or one description that you gave for

each one. Here we go, and when you described the threes we go.

The thing that stood out to me as you said their root sin like

them at their worst, is that they are deceitful. So I realized really

quickly that Tony, this whole time time are not being truthful. He said,

I've been wearing a mask this whole time, Like, how long have

you known me? I Am going to find out that Tony actually has hair

and has been wearing a bald skull cap to give off the impression that he's

I've loved I've loved every sermon. Ud, no need for that. I've

loved every sermon. Everyone realizing I'm bald and told him that's what about?

What about Pastor Die? What are my wife? Here? We go?

Pastor Die scored as a I wrote that wrong down wrongs an eight. She's

a boss. That's why an instagram eight describe an eight. So eights are

oftentimes called the challengers. Eights are pretty confident in themselves. Eights have a

need to be against They are decisive, they are willful, They can be

confrontational. It sounds like someone I know. Are you ready to know what

sentence stock out stood out to me? I'd love the hates. You described

eights as viewing fighting as a form of intimacy. Yes, eights oftentimes Yes,

that's uh. I don't know if it's healthy or not. But eights

sometimes, yes, view fighting as a form of intimacy. They tend to

get into fights and they're what they're doing when they're fighting is they're sizing people

up, and they're trying to get people to stick up for themselves, and

you know, they're trying to have some confidence. So there's someone else that

I know. Let's before we do that. I was pointing, I wanted

to talk first. Oh no, we're like coaching each other on the fly.

Here you get to hear this, and I thought, you said,

you want to talk about you. Oh, I don't want to talk about

me. I wanted to talk. Uh. I was googling, and I

googled what are the rarest eneogram type? So there's nine and so it breaks

down and the rarest was a five. I don't know if you that in

your experience that several studies, but that I wouldn't be surprised by that.

Yeah, and then the second most rare is an eight. That also wouldn't

be surprising. Ironically, on our staff, there were more eights than anyone

else. Yeah. Yeah, it was the single most well represented number.

I think there was six six people out of the there's like twenty one in

that room, I think, and six of them were eights. So here's

what's crazy. Six eights, zero fours, no fours, none. And

the only twos we had were people that in the middle of the seminar changed

their number to it two. Yeah, they realized they were there were twos

in the middle of it. Yeah. Handful of threes, couple of sixes,

one five. Creative director Brandon Greenwall was a five ye, but a

handful of eights. Yeah. So when you have the unusual, Yeah,

the highest percentage of our staff finds fighting a form of intimacy, you get

an impression what staff meetings are like. Well, I'm I've never been part

of them. I just met you guys, but it does it does give

me a picture that do you smell the intensity in the air? So Tony,

before we do the drum wall at the end, So our eights were

Coley, Amanda Farley, John White, Johnnie White, Diana Beals, Dibals

and drum roll Judah, what is that? Oh God, here we go,

Mastor Brandon isn't eight? Everyone? Shock? Okay, let's just show

on the on the buttons for a minute. I scored as an eight wing

seven. I really wanted to be a seven wing eight. Yeah, but

I I couldn't deny when he was describing when there's conflict, what is the

gut response of he grouped people together. I think it was the eight was

with the when there's conflict, eight goes with with the six and the fourth.

It's the emotionally reactive triad with conflicts. So he said that in conflict,

the natural response from eight is anger and angry elf. Yeah, and

then four and then natural response of a seven is positivity. So and I

okay. So forever I always thought PBS in eight, but then I also

realized, I mean, he use a seven. You love spontaneity, you

love to just buy airpoint ticket and go I'm going here tomorrow, see you

guys in a minute. I'll come to seven. Yeah. I want to

be a seven. You love doing fun things. And and the way that

the way that the wings work, so you said you were eight wings seven.

The way that the wings work is that at least one theory of it

is that you do have access as an eight to some of the aspects of

being a seven. And so it wouldn't you know that's oftentimes a way to

kind of hone in on what your number might be is if you're vacillating between

two of them and they're right next to each other on the you know,

if you look at the inneagram diagram, they're all in a circle. If

they're right next to each other, then you know one of them could be

your wing and the other one is kind of your core. So can you

like because okay, so like Pastor Brandon for instance, you know, like

when the church is full steam ahead, we got big things we're doing.

Yeah, and naturally he's gonna be an eight. But like when things are

kind of chill, we're doing well, I feel like you're a little more

laid back, he can be more of a seven. Can you lean more

into your wing and be that? Yeah? I think there's there's a couple

different ways of thinking about that. So and one of them is that some

people theorize that maybe you develop one wing early in life and then you develop

another wing later in life. And so for an ineogram eight, you know,

maybe earlier in life you you kind of lean into a nine wing,

later you lean into a seven wing. But it can also be circumstantial,

where you know, in circumstances where you know, hey, things are going

okay, there's no crisis to manage, then maybe, yeah, maybe there's

a little bit more freedom for an eight to feel like, oh, I

can lean into my seven wing and that's cool. You know. Explained really

quickly, what is a nine. A nine is called the need to avoid

just everything, period, and so they are often also called the peacemakers.

Nines are motivated by a need to avoid conflict. They want to sort of

hold onto their world, and they they their strategy for doing so, kind

of holding onto the people in their life and the and the world as they

have it, is not to make waves, not to be too disruptive,

and so they've learned it's like a survival mechanism that they've learned to say,

I'm going to stay out of the way, I'm not going to be a

problem. I'm going to let other people. I'm gonna go along with what

other people want. And that is kind of them of a nine earnestly desire

unity or is it more like they want to control the situation. No,

I think they what they're desiring is unity and what they're what they're looking for.

So they're part of eights, nine, and ones are part of that

body triad, and autonomy and anger are words that describe that they're they're seeking

autonomy. And so what nines are looking for is kind of a sense of

inner peace. They want their inner world to be okay, and and conflicts

seems to be threatening to that. And so I do think they want unity,

and they are. They can be very powerful peace makers. They can

be powerful mediators. They tend to see every side of a conflict. But

the downside is they oftentimes don't know what they want and they can end up

merging with other people and sort of losing their own sense of identity and sort

of purpose. The reason the reason I thought maybe I was a seven wing

eight is he described that typically the number that you are, you can wing

to both sides depending on the situation. And I looked at myself and I

thought, I don't think anybody in my entire fifty years of existence has ever

said that person is all about peace. So I don't think I have any

nine in me whatsoever. Pastor Brandon, I will I will give you credit,

though, when there is conflict, even if it's with you or if

it's other people, you always find solutions and resolution always, and people typically

walk out of meetings with you. They walk in pretty upset, and they

walk out like, all right, I think we're good. That got solved

at least all the conflict I've ever had with you, or I've noticed with

other staff, or or even anyone in our church. So can you can

you have like I know, PBS in eight seven, but can you also

have like a little hint of a nine if it's since it's next to the

eight? Yeah. Like I said, there's there's different theories about the way

the wings work. And I said this in the workshop. I don't really

know which one I believe, but but I do think I've seen in my

own life and I've seen this in in others that there is there does seem

to be sort of I think about it as access to sure another number,

you know, the access to the qualities of you know, of your wings.

Yeah, so it wouldn't surprise me. You know that a healthy eight,

especially a healthy eighty, might be a very good, you know,

peacemaker, that they could lean into that that kind of nine energy, even

though at their core what motivates them most of the time is that need to

be against I will receive healthy eight. Yeah, yeah, I think you

are well. You had talked about what would be kind of fun to do

is talk about from the different ineogram types how they would interact with me.

Why don't you give the scenario that you want them to interact with and then

I'll give him the number and he could say it, and you can be

honest. We've already given your honorarium check. We're not going to cancel the

check. Finish the seminar, so you can be be brutally honest. Okay,

m should we use the one from today's meeting or should we hold off

on that one? That scenario? Which which scenario? The amusing one?

He used the amusing one? Will you remind me again what was the amusing

one? Oh? Yeah, But since Tony is now laughing at me unbeknownst

to me, so I did not know this happened in time at this staff

training, apparently, don't gonna tell you what happened. Sure, go ahead,

Okay. We have a certain church who we're not going to throw under

the bus because we love them. They rent out our facility on a certain

night of the week. Long story short, they left the water on all

night long. In the sink of the bathroom. So when we came in

the next day, Pastor Brandon's gone on vacation. Pastor Alex has gone vacation,

so there's no chain of command at this point. Morgan and Nicole,

I think, are next up, but they're here. There's about three inches

of water all in the auditorium, in the lobby, and we have twenty

one in turns throwing their shirts, jackets, towels down trying to dry this

up, all of it. We didn't tell as for Brandon about this until

today because because this is the first time you learned about it. This isn't

really no. I found out about it in that meeting when and so,

how would an eight react to a phone call? Hey, pastor right before

church on Sunday? Editorium is just a little flooded right now? Uh yeah,

what would an eate do in that moment? Yeah? I mean,

well, eights are part of a group called the emotionally reactive group, and

so they would react very emotionally. They would, they would be very upset.

They would they would probably figure out who who is to blame for this

and how do we take vengeance upon them? Which is so funny. That

is what is their thing they're all about. Was it their vengeance? Is

there? Yeah, it's it's one of their it's called their fixation. So

if they so anyway, that would man yes, yeah, so that that

would be the reaction, which is why I found it funny in the seminar

because people are saying like, yeah, that's why we didn't tell him,

that's why, that's why nobody called Brandon or Alex and I would never want

a night as well on your behalf p being like, this is what you

would have said, but yeah, do you agree with that? Do you

think you would have been pretty fired up? My assumption is based upon the

ineogram that quickly when all of this happened, because Morgan is a seven and

Sean's the seven, they probably jumped around in it like it was a puddle

and decided it was super fun. And then immediately Nicole and Heather as my

ones, started thinking, Okay, how do we fix this? And I

am betting there was a moment where Nicole looked at everybody else and said,

don't tell Brandon. Oh, I'm not betting, I'm telling you the entire

time I have Greeny here. She was like, no one text him.

No one called, and she didn't say it once or twice. It was

like on the front page of the Seattle Times. Leave Brandon alone. Yeah,

so that's super fascinating because, as you said, she's a one,

Nicole's a one and a one. We've talked about them and kind of how

they are, but they're they're part of under conflict. Eights are part of

the emotionally reactive group. Ones are part of the competence group, which means

that they seek to suppress emotion in order to solve the problem. And so

it's interesting that they began to solve the water problem, but they also tried

to solve the Brandon problem, the potential Brandon problem, right, So it's

like part of solving the problem was we don't need another emotionally reactive person in

the midst of this. I find that fascinating. It is not a branding

problem. It is a pastor brand I'm doctor. Okay, is there a

button for that now? I thought about this as you were describing the anger

response, and you did a really great job talking about you use the example

of husbands and wives interacting with each other. And my wife will come home

sometimes and she will and my wife is an incredible story Tarial tell her she's

an eight. She will tell this great, detailed, passionate story of some

injustice that happened to her. And I have no ability to respond any other

way than be angry for my wife, like I want to know who did

it, what I have to do to take that person out every single time.

So when you're talking about anger and vengeance, literally, Batman, that's

what it is. I'm a random member hero. Where is she? So

what my wife learned that she has to do is she has to say,

all right, Brandon, I don't want you to react. What I want

you to do is just listen and hear me and feel bad for me.

So she will then share some grand injustice that has happened to her. And

I'm supposed to step outside of my natural inclination and just be sensitive and understand.

She's forcing me to be a nine and I don't want to be.

Can we can we do like another scenario like that would that has happened in

the past here at the church? Can we play out scenario and see how

an eight would react? You have obviously got something in your no, okay,

So Pastor Brandon speaks all the time, and all the time for the

most part, people love the messages, and then there's always the one person

that gets all disgruntled. How would an eight react to someone who pulls them

aside in the lobby on a Sunday morning and says, you know what you

said this and your sermon, Man, I'm ticked off, or this is

how it made me feel. How would an eight react to that? Well,

there's there's probably a few a few different ways, depending on depending on

the context, right, But immediately what comes to mind for me is that

eates, you know, if they're challenged. If somebody says, hey,

I think you're wrong about this, I think eates, would you know,

step up to defend themselves and say, no, actually I researched that really

well and here's here's why you're wrong. So that can oftentimes be the response.

I mean, other times, depending on who it is. You know,

if it's an elder pulling you aside, that's maybe one thing. Right.

If it's a you know, if it's somebody who's visited the church this

is their second time of the church or the first time of the church,

maybe it's a little different. Maybe it's a little bit more of a dismissal.

Maybe that is where I shift into the nine Nope. I've watched literally

people do this to you and you and you just gracefully go, hey,

thank you so much, appreciate your your feedback. One of my life I

would say creeds and mottos is that if you live by the praises of men,

you'll die by their criticisms. And I've just learned that if somebody's telling

you that was the greatest sermon that you've ever heard, or that was the

worst sermon that you've ever heard, you respond to it exactly the same way.

And I always describe it as thank you, and it goes in one

ear and out the other, and then you you forget about it. I

think that scenario that you talked about is an interesting dynamic from the response of

my staff because the staff, I feel intense loyalty from our team, great

love from our team. Many of the many of our staff members have been

on staff, got saved in the church, or have been on the team

for a long time, and they see me like as a spiritual dad.

And so I think my team's gut reaction is to be offended for me.

How would a just out of curiosity. Somebody is on your team and they're

overhearing somebody comes says, I didn't like this thing that you said in your

message. How would a three respond to that? Yeah? Well, why

I think I think that it's it's important to note and I think your your

response to this other uh scenario points this out. It's important to note,

like we're not we're not bound to respond a certain way because of our type.

Right, Yeah, totally, But there's going to be a tendency that

that we have to you know, learn to mitigate or modify, you know,

as it comes out. So I think, you know, a three

sort of watching somebody that they love and appreciate and feel loyal to being criticized.

Yeah, I would probably feel somewhat the same way that, Hey,

this is a you know, this is a person that I, you know,

have have invested in a lot in and they'd want to avoid the appearance

of being you know, sort of unsuccessful. Three threes are motivated. I

don't know if we mentioned that, but threes are motivated by a need to

succeed and sort of to appear successful, and they're they're highly achievement oriented and

very deceitful. Oh my goodness, well what the yeah? Ere we goes.

I'm even laugh like Halloween every day for me, I guess. So

okay, I can ask you this as a three. In my earlier twenties,

when I was a youth pastor, all I wanted was look at me,

look at me, look at me. A lot of immature, a

lot of insecurity, and to be honest. Now, if I ever get

praise, accolade, or if people even acknowledge me, look at me,

I'm highly uncomfortable. So like today you made a stand up and and you

ride over us some affirmations. Yeah, I wanted to crawl just in my

shirt interesting and hide. Yeah yeah. Why do you think that is?

Do you think it just things happen over time, like as you just get

older and kind of mature a little bit, or yeah, I think that's

part of it. I think that, you know, again, we these

things name tendencies, they name the ineagram names kind of survival mechanisms, almost

like the ways that we've learned to cope with the pain of life. And

I think as we get older, you know, we we start to play

that game. So threes are playing this game of Okay, when I achieve

things, people love people like me. I like. I like that feeling.

I'm gonna keep achieving more things. Oh, people like me more.

Oh they didn't like when I did that. I'm gonna do that again.

I'm going to do that better. Right, So they learned to play this

little game to kind of get what it is that they think they want,

which is an affirmation, which is attention, you know. And so I

think what you're describing is as we get older, if we're paying attention and

if we're you know, have some relative modicum of health and a desire to

let Jesus heal us, I think we start to see the ways that that

is harmful to us. Like, man, if I spend the rest of

my life seeking attention being awesome, I don't think that's doing good work for

me. And I don't think it's doing good work for the people that I

serve and love. I don't think it's doing good work for the people that

I'm close to. And so I got to do something else. And so

I would imagine that anything that feels to you like that, which standing up

and being affirmed, feels like what you used to sort of what you know

what you now realize is like, oh, that doesn't give life. I

don't want that drains me right, Yeah, And so anytime and this is

how trauma works in our body as well, But anytime that that reminds you

of that other thing that you know now know is bad. I think there's

this discomfort that we feel like, oh that's not no, that's I don't

want to do that. Yeah, And there there is, I think just

different stages of growth that we go through that that can manifest in those ways

where we start to learn. I mean, this is part of learning the

enneagram as it can feel actually kind of embarrassing because what it starts to name

for us is, you know, the ways that we've tried to cope with

life and the ways that it's not working. So it kind of names our

false self. It names and it ends up feeling embarrassing to us to realize,

oh, gosh, have I been playing this game my whole life?

And man, we want something better that's good. Using that same scenario of

someone coming up chewing me out in the lobby overhearing it, we have a

couple of six on our staff. One of our Spokane campus pastors, justin

Farley is six and our young adult pastor Claire is six. How would a

six respond in that scenario? What would they think in that scenario? Yeah,

so sixes are called the loyalist. They have a deep need for security.

They're great team players, engaging and responsible. They they tend to create

a community of their seeking security in the way that they seek that is by

creating a community of like faithful friends around them. And so they are often

deeply loyal to the people that they have decided to be loyal to. And

so I think six is in that scenario would definitely feel defensive toward, you

know, someone being criticized right that they that they love and that they identify

with. It's like, hey, that's part of my crew, you know,

and you're not gonna You're not gonna come If you come after him,

You're gonna you have to deal with me. Yeah, So that's oftentimes I

think the way that they would tend to respond. Claire is your Robin as

you are, Batman, Well, you were convinced, as was Claire for

apparently the last six years of her life, that she was a three.

I was. I mean, so Pastor Claire got staved in our youth ministry

was my admin now is our young Adults pastor, And it was cooler than

all of us. So, but she thought it's all about success. Drive

drive drive. But as you back this, she's had the same group of

friends since high school. Yeah, and there's it's like us four no more.

She every time I bring her something, Hey, we want to do

this, she is like, oh, man, but but what if this

happens? But what if that happened? What if? Like she thinks worst

case scenario, and I'll go, hey, Claire, We're okay, let's

just let's just keep going. Now. She is incredibly faithful, incredibly loyal.

She doesn't want to mess up. Yeah. The thing that was messing

me up when they were all dogmatic that she was a three when you begin

to describe the three is Claire is one of those people that I really I

adore Claire. I'm super proud of her and what she's been able to do

in our YA ministry, just her testimony story. So I I deeply love

Claire. And then when I heard she might be a three, I'm thinking

she's been deceiving me this whole time. She doesn't really like me. Yeah,

you cannot go. When I discovered that Claire is a six, I

think she might really like me. Yeah, gosh, it might be.

It might actually be true. Well, six as will, let you know,

I mean joking aside, six as will. Yeah. The one way

to see a six is that they value that loyalty so much that they will,

you know, they'll go to bat for you. They will, they

will die on that hill, you know, defending their faithful friends. And

they also feel betrayal than a lot more acutely because it's so important to them.

Kind of, as we as we wrap up here, what would you

say to everyone listening who knows their number or figuring it out and they're going

to go figure out what number they identify us, what would you say is

a good next step for all of us, even pastor Brandon and I who

just spent eight hours with you. Yeah, what's a good next step for

someone as they unpack the aniogram? Yeah, I would say, fine,

find a way tests. My caveat with tests is they can tell you a

little bit, but you really it's the drawback and the blessing of the innagram.

I think the drawback is that it it's so dense. There's nine different

things to learn, right, It actually takes up quite a bit of knowledge

to even get to the to the level of like, Okay, I think

I get how this system works, but then the blessing of that is that

it goes then so deep from that place. And so I would say that

the best way to really understand how the inneagram can, like what is your

type and why does that matter? And how can you grow and what you

know, how can that help you in your you know, cultivate better relationships

and help more christ likeness all of that kind of stuff, is just to

continue to find a way to learn the system, learn how it works.

And so that could be reading a book. There's you know, there's a

few good books out there. There's there's lots of good books on the inneagram.

Or listen to a podcast. There's tons of podcasts out there now.

So if you would recommend one book, which one would it be? I

would probably say, from most Christians, the best book out there that gives

a good summary would be The Road Back to You by Suzanne'stabel. It's a

good one. I read that one. Yeah, it's very good. That's

a good overview. Ben. Thank you for traveling all this way from Indiana

to minister and really invest in my staff. It means a lot. I

you said you're not super into Indiana sports, but I do want to let

you know, okay, that our beloved University of Washington Huskies just joined the

Big Ten starting in twenty twenty four. We will on occasion be making a

road trip to Indiana, and I expect you want to go watch the Huskies

there. Okay, we can crash in your spare bedroom. You've got it

all my all my kids when college starts here, all my kids are out

of the house. I got four kids, but they're all going to be

out of the house, so we got plenty of space. We just got

a dog now, Okay, So I would say thank you, Ben,

And also I want to thank you because I never want to box in someone

and be like, Okay, well, Pastor Brandon's an eight, so I'm

gonna treat him like an eight. Boy's gonna view him as an eight.

Sure, No, he's a man of God, he's a human. But

to be honest, it helps me better understand how to talk to someone.

Address someone kind of see maybe how their mind is thinking. So rather than

me come at them and be like, why aren't they just getting it but

actually come in with some strategy to the conversation, what would best help reconcile

or bring up conflict or encourage that person. And I think it was actually

really beneficial because now I feel like there's things with the staff I can say

and do. Yeah, So thanks a lot for being here, man,

We really appreciate it. My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Tony.

Why don't we share with them the plan for next week. We do want

to make everyone aware that for the next couple of weeks we actually have a

couple of extra bonus episodes. So the next two weeks we're gonna enter view

our Spokane campus pastor, interview our police campus pastor. They we're good.

But next week you're gonna hear a special interview that Tony and I are doing

with Andre Mubarek about a really hot topic topic. Why don't you explain the

topic? So this is pretty hot. Here's a question I get all the

time. People ask me where are you from? And I go on Palestinian

and they go what's that? And where's that? And I go, well,

it's in the Holy Land. It was on the map. But it's

not anymore. It's in the Bible and they go, huh, so are

you like, what does that mean? The Arab Israeli conflict has been going

on for years and years and years. I am no expert. I honestly

don't believe anyone truly is an expert on this. I think we go back

to biblical roots when it comes to this conflict. But I want to we

want to discuss what it is for a Palestinian Christian and we're going to speak

with an Arab Israeli and really unpack this entire topic of Israel Palestine and not

necessarily the politics of it, but the biblical root of it. So I

am super excited. This is gonna be a hot one. It'll be very

interesting for anyone who's interested in Israel traveling on an Israel trip. Andre is

one of the guides that we hire to do our Israel tours, and you're

gonna love him. He is amazing. Dibil said, he is the Israeli

brandon I said, there's such a thing. Well, come on next week

you get to meet Andre again. Venture friends, thanks for listening. Don't

forget to share this podcast. Like this podcast, give us a review on

iTunes and Spotify. Thanks for listening. See you next week. I love

you guys, Audios, Raider Roll, Never forget Jesus is the hope of

the world. Yes, h m hm