Episode 16 Everyone Evangelize

Dave: Welcome to Thrive On Mission, the podcast of the Christian Restoration Association. I'm Dave Jones. I am the senior minister at the Millwood Church of Christ and as always with Jim Book, associate director with the CRA. And Jim, it looks like you're in a new location. Where are you hiding now?

James Book: Yes, I'm in a beautiful hotel outside of Indianapolis. ⁓ got the privilege of ⁓ speaking at the tri-state revival, which obviously consists of, Indiana. think it's Ohio and, ⁓ that's Michigan. you churches and, ⁓ Holly and John Piper put this on. go to the stroke church of Christ out there in Angola. And, I was surrounded by some really great guys. one of our own trustees.

Dave: Michigan.

James Book: ⁓ Terry Peer was one of the speakers. ⁓ so yeah, just finished that, went to Harlan Church of Christ last night, got a chance to tour the Woodburn Children's Home. Now that they got that building up, it's beautiful. And ⁓ visiting my grandkids ⁓ today and then head home tomorrow. But we want to take some time to do this awesome podcast.

Dave: Hey, want to have you share a little bit about Woodburn, the children's home there in Indiana. Just tell us your experience there and what you see them doing.

James Book: Yeah. First of all, know, the Bible says, suffer little children come to me for such as the kingdom of heaven. And they are, they're, they're, they're reaching out to the orphans, you know, pure religion, undefiled, right? Care for widows and orphans. And it's a beautiful layout. It's an incredible program. But they're getting ready to build another section on that property for young people who transition out of traditional foster care. You know, they're 18, but they're, but they're certainly not ready for the real world. And so they can live on those sites for the year of 18 to 25 years of age, but they gainfully employ. They have to be going to college. They have to be earning an income. There's, know, they're helping them grow up, but not throwing them out to grow up on their own. And I think this is going to be huge. ⁓ they're very connected to the local church. The church is connected to them. Super well run. was just great to see that vision and that the growth of that ministry.

Dave: And we need a game ball winner for the weekend. Any thoughts on that?

James Book: Yes. Well, okay. So I got this incredible text from Brian Schultz over at Kent Christian. They launched their very first, first steps or connect class last week. I think they had 14, ⁓ two were missing, but they added those two this week and they graduated the class. think they had four plus immersed believers in Christ joined the church that day. And there's a lady.

Dave: you

James Book: that's preparing to be baptized, it just wants to meet with Brian one more time to go over some things. And this is the first time they've ever rolled out a Connect class. And to have that many in your very first, and then to have, you know, lock in, seal the deal, if you will. I don't want to turn it into like a car salesman line, but you know, getting people to make that decision. So Brian was super excited, you know, he posted all over social media. I reposted it. But their goal is to get 200 by 200. They're getting ready to turn 200 years old in the next four years. And they want to be averaging 200, period. And one way to build your numbers is to convert people. And so I'd like to give Olbrido the old game ball, if we could. I think those guys are killing it over there. They're doing just a great job.

Dave: that's a good choice and that's a $25 code for the bookstore, the CRA Bookstore. So lots of commentaries and other resources for churches and preachers and those who just want to know the Word of God, the CRA Bookstore is a great place to go. Jimmy mentioned something in the context there of Kent Christian Church.

James Book: Absolutely.

Dave: that they're doing 200 by 200. So they want to have attendance averaging about 200 people by their 200th anniversary as a church. the Mission 120 is a great initiative that has... has some very direct appeal to churches under 120 in attendance to get them to that number, those who are over 120 to get them to 120 baptisms by 2030. And maybe I just want to address that for a moment. If people need to nuance that a little bit that fits their culture and their congregation, go for it, right?

James Book: Absolutely. know Ryan Williams preaches in Virginia, Northern Virginia. They've tweaked it to work around ⁓ a project that they were already in play. man, ⁓ yeah, absolutely. It's not a fixed plan, but it is a plan ⁓ and you massage it any way you want. know for Ryan, they want to tie it into their 200th anniversary, which does fall within the next four years. And let me mention Dave. If you want more information about Mission 120, if you'll go to the Christian Restoration Association website, there's a link called Mission 120. There are three samples of First Steps class material that you can download. You don't have to create it yourself. We're getting rated Ed, Lakemount Church of Christ on there, and one other church that we really love. They're huge supporters of CRA. They've created a two week class. Again, you can... take Jeff Fall's stuff or our stuff that we had at Kissimmee Christian, you can massage it any way you want. You can take a little bit of all four and put it into one or just take one. But we're trying to do all the heavy lifting for churches. So you don't have to create this stuff. know, Race was our speaker last week, Dave, ⁓ from Cuyahoga, the Kentucky West Virginia Evangelizing Association. He has just done a phenomenal job of developing a program. where you can find out what the DNA of your community is. So it takes the guesswork out of who's in our town. That's information on the CRA link to Mission 120. So we're trying just to give you as much information. we consult all the time, individually. I'm on the phone all throughout the week working with preachers. And that's what we wanna do. That's what the CRA is. The CRA is a resource to help put the restoration movement. in the warp speed. think we've kind of lost a lot of traction. I think we've lost a lot of ground over the years. 70 % of our churches are all under 100. Numbers don't tell everything. I get that. But we know if we don't change the trajectory, then it'll be 80 % under 100 and as soon it'll be 90%. And we've just got to, we got to be very intentional about growth again. That's really what our podcast is all about too. It's being intentional about growth. and development, but not from a pragmatist viewpoint or a progressive viewpoint, but from a biblical viewpoint.

Dave: Yeah, and that really is the goal in your book based on the Axe model for church growth. We're working our way and we'll wrap it up today. These four principles or characteristics of a biblically sound and culturally relevant church. The first three really did center on making sure we knew our community, served our community, and race sort of tied that together last week. The first one was about having the... that serving the community and having solid doctrine are not enemies of one another. We can have solid doctrine and reach our community and grow. I think it's a misnomer in many of our churches that if we're small but holding on to the truth that that's good enough, the truth is God wants the church to grow.

James Book: Right.

Dave: and we can't allow doctrine to be limited to just the basics of salvation, but part of our doctrine and what we believe is the Great Commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel. And so you've done such a good job of framing that for us and such a heart for reaching the community for the Lord and expanding the church in that way. And today we're going to wrap all of this up, these four characteristics, talking about the churches ⁓ who want to

James Book: Yes.

Dave: serve the Lord are going to be engaged in the culture and be evangelistically effective. And so the mindset is that of evangelism. Why is this so important for us to even talk about? Shouldn't this be something that people take for granted that the church is going to be evangelistic?

James Book: You know, I would think because when you look at the nature of the human being, whenever we're excited about something, we typically want to share the story. You know, when you were a kid, you know, got a bicycle for Christmas. What were you doing? You know, as soon as everybody opened their gifts, you were on that bicycle in your pajamas going up and down the street, praying that all your friends would look out the window go, hey, look, Jimmy got a bicycle, right? Cause you just, you wanted to share that. nothing would stop you, could be snowing outside. You're gonna still take that bicycle out. And I use the illustration of grandparents. When you become a grandparent, now that we have all these pictures on our phones, as soon as someone says, are your grandchildren? It's like, well, let me show you. There's a zillion pictures on there. Because it's a byproduct of something that we do when we're excited about something, we wanna share it. And I've never quite understood how we can claim to be excited about our faith and what Jesus has done for us. And yet we develop what spiritual lock, you always can't tell anybody. So you're right, Dave. I've always believed and I'm guilty of it too, that the bright product of being excited about something means you want to share it. And I don't know why it is, we've got, seems like Christians can talk a lot about sports, a lot about politics, a lot about their families, which is great. But when it comes to sharing your faith, it's like, know, radio silence, that's got to change.

Dave: Jim, you shared a study by a writer named Wyn Arn who said that 89 % of congregations believe the church exists to serve them and their families, and 11 % of the church believes that we are here to win the loss to Jesus Christ. The congregation believes that when the same question is asked of preachers, the statistics are basically upside down. That preachers believe 90 % that we are here to reach out to the community and win the lost.

James Book: Right, exactly.

Dave: Why the difference between what the congregation believes the church exists for and what the preacher ⁓ would say the church exists for? Why is there such a disparity?

James Book: That's a great question. So I've always believed if they're not getting the message, then I gotta find out what the messenger's doing or not doing. There's an old saying, if the church goes to sleep, they need to wake the preacher up. Okay, so somehow we have failed to communicate effectively the role of the church in regard to evangelism. for 89 % of the preachers or 90 plus percent of the preachers to go, we need to be focused externally and only 11 % go, wait a minute, that's important. I thought it was about my family. So all right, we've got to close that gap. Now, let me say this. I would never want to go to a church where my family was not empowered or encouraged or inspired. I'm not suggesting that that's not important. for only what? 11 % of those interviewed believe that evangelism is his priority. And it's flipped when it comes to preachers. They understand our role. How did we fail to communicate that to the flock? Evangelism, think, has got to be a priority. And Dave, I don't know, you, Dave, so your story's a little different than mine. You became a Christian kind of later in life and you were a very successful businessman before you dropped it all and joined the ministry. you you hit the road running, baby. You haven't looked back, which is great. I literally was birthed in the church, birthed in the church. I remember, I remember Sunday school, wars, churches. who are competing to see how many would come to Sunday school. remember hearing stories about my grandfather when he did evangelistic campaigns. were oftentimes two weeks and there were dozens of baptisms. People were bringing their unsafe people to those rallies. The dynamics have changed now and ⁓ might say, well, ⁓ was almost compulsory. It was almost too much pressure, but whatever was happening then isn't happening now. And I have to believe, and I'm not saying we have to do two-week revivals. What I am saying is there seemed to be a sense of urgency, ⁓ highly devoted intentionality toward evangelism in those days, and there isn't so much now. And we have to put a sense of urgency back into evangelism at all of our churches.

Dave: Jim, we've talked before about the sons of Issachar, the Bible says, who understood the times and knew what Israel must do. Do you think maybe that's part of it, that the church is generally a few years behind the culture and the cultural dynamics of what people are actually looking for? And so we're still trying to win people like it was 1990 and we're forgetting that it's, you know, we're in the 2020s now and the way people think today is very different than it was before.

James Book: Yeah.

Dave: background culturally as it relates to the church is very different. What I've experienced over the course of my ministry was I've talked to people that had no idea who Moses was. They didn't know the Old Testament stories because they didn't go to Sunday school even with grandma. They never went to vacation Bible school because we're really in a probably the second maybe even third generation of families that have

James Book: very. Right. Right.

Dave: chosen not to be involved in church and we become increasingly secular in our culture. So maybe that speaks to where we're at as a church. We haven't kept up in how they're communicating and what they're actually looking for. We still think people are looking to ⁓ get back closer to God. A lot of them are never in that state at any point in their life to begin with.

James Book: Exactly. mean, they're first time shoppers, if you will, and terminology and language that's very familiar with us, totally unfamiliar with them. ⁓ You know, in the 70s or 60s, I should say, the Bible was removed from the schools. ⁓ Instead of the churches ramping up their Bible programs or parents looking for alternative forms of education, we just kind of ⁓ we complained about it. But over the decades, there's been a dumbing down of religion. ⁓

Dave: Yeah.

James Book: religion is now being viewed as hostile by the secular left. ⁓ Progressives don't believe that any of our rights come from God, they come from government. So there's this disdain for Christianity. So we've got so much ground to make up. ⁓ But we can't because there's a fundamental need in every human being and that's for a sense of belonging and community. Gangs flourish because young people want community. ⁓ So what the church has to do is put itself back in the center of the public square and say you want community? we can offer you the best community. You want hope? We can present that to you. You want salvation, whether you know it or not, we can provide it. And it all comes through a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. But we really, Dave, think we really, churches have got to place a high value on planting the seed. And one of the fundamental principles of Mission 120 is to encourage churches just to create a business card or postcard size. invitation where everybody in the church gets them because we typically like, we hired that preacher so he can grow our church. Well, we want him to grow it, but we don't want to be the only one. All right. So what Mission 120 does is gets everybody on the team involved in church growth. You know, a simple invitation. 86 % of people who came to church visited Sunday, came through an invitation. All right. And I'm a firm believer we need to have attractive facilities, attractive informative websites. All that's important, but 86 % of people who visit come because someone said, I want you to worship with me. I want to bring you to church with me. I want you to meet me at our church service. We've got to put the responsibility of evangelism on the entire church. So we are really encouraging churches. Send this information to us. We'll create the cards for you. We have a staff ready to do this. We'll get you the cards. You get them printed and get everybody in on evangelizing. And I don't want to hear this. Well, that's not my gift. Well, do it anyway, okay? Do it anyway.

Dave: Jim, when we talk about that survey that Wynn Arndt did, and 89 % of the people in the church believe the church exists for them, that's really a consumeristic mentality. And that huge number of people in the average church that has the perspective, they come to church to be served and not to serve, and certainly not to go out into the community and get people to come with them.

James Book: Right.

Dave: per se. That's somebody else's job, as you said, the preacher's job or whoever. So if that's the scenario where the majority of people look at church as something for them, how do we help shift that mindset and help them ⁓ gain an interest in reaching the community in which we live? How do we teach them that value?

James Book: So you know, Dave, it used to be said ⁓ years ago, as the church goes, so goes America, because the church was so intricately involved in setting the tone for contemporary culture. That's when, you know, again, I use the example, Alexander Campbell was invited by James Madison to preach to the joint sessions of Congress. Imagine that, right? But that's because the restoration movement was highly effective. We actually helped set the tone for the culture. That's all changed. The culture actually now sets the tone for the church. And you know, consumerism, has been a plague of postmodern America. We are a very consumer society. You you go to any grocery store, walk down the cereal aisle and there's 150 options. Okay. Go to any aisle, bread aisle, thousands of options, drive down any road and there's 400 car lots. There's 85 trial lawyers advertising to help you sue somebody because we live, we want to give everybody a lot of options. And so What this does is it creates a consumerist mentality. It becomes about me. And then we look for a church. What do we look for? Well, something that the kids will love, something that the music that I can relate to, a preacher that really entertains me. And so it becomes about us. And we're not asking tough questions like, what church will draw us closer to Christ? What church stands the best chance of getting us to heaven? Okay, those questions aren't even asked. Now we got to reverse the tide now. We gotta say, look, here's what we're here to do. We're here to help you get to heaven, but we're not gonna let you off the hook. You're gonna bring others with you. And maybe you don't like everything about our building and maybe the music isn't the best, but the reality is we're not gonna feed anymore into your consumerism, because consumerism kills. That's why marriages end after five years. I'm tired of my wife, tired of my husband. So we go shopping again. We trade our cars in every two years. Why? Because there's a better model. We throw our phones in the trash. Why? There's a better product. Well, we can't treat church and Jesus the same way. So we've got to tell people when they come in, hey, it's not about you. It was never about you. And I know in contemporary America, that's what you hear, but that's not true anymore. All right? And that's why we've been called upon every day to sacrifice our will to God's. mean, he that is first shall be last. Okay? I mean, Jesus trying to get that point across, it ain't about you. So I'm really challenging all churches especially in their first steps class, that's really the opportunity to roll it out. Say, hey, I just need you to know it's all about Jesus from this moment forward. And to be about Jesus means you got to be telling people about Him. And we're going to make it as easy on you to do that as possible. We're going furnish you the material. But no one now is here for themselves. We're here to elevate God. We're second. We're second. We've always been second. And that's how this church is going I think people will buy into that. I think secretly, Dave, I think people are tired of being consumers. We're feeding that monster, we do, but overall I think we realize it doesn't create any, ⁓ we're less favorable, we're less attractive as people, we're less happy, and we were never intended to be happy at feeding our egos. So this really is about denying yourself and taking up your cross and following Him. And that was the premise of the gospel anyway.

Dave: Yeah, I love what you say in your book, Jim. The apostles learned how to minister to the hurting because they saw it modeled by the master. And yeah, Jesus said, I came to serve, not to be served. And what's really encouraging, I would say, is that there is a younger generation than me.

James Book: How do you go wrong with that, right?

Dave: that and you that are coming into the church and one of their first questions is how can we serve? What can we do to contribute? So they're very eager to serve and we've had to actually open up some avenues for people to serve in ways that we didn't have before. We've had to discover some ways that they're not in a teaching role of course, but we want them to be involved in serving and we had the...

James Book: Right.

Dave: This was probably two years ago now. It was such an encouraging site. We had a ⁓ welcome lunch for people that were brand new to the church, and I mean visitors to the church, not new members. It was well attended. It was the very first sort of next steps class we did.

James Book: Wow.

Dave: And I walked back ⁓ and the room was full of people. had our elders there and a large group of members of the church and then a lot of new visitors. And as I walked through the kitchen, there's this woman putting sandwiches on a tray and I had to introduce myself to her. She was brand new to the church.

James Book: Wow

Dave: She had visited that day and her mindset walking through the door was, I'm here to serve. And she's done nothing but serve in her time in our church. And so that mentality I think is out there. We just have to provide avenues for people to serve and give them those opportunities.

James Book: Absolutely. Rick Rusaw in his book, The Externally Focused Church said, relationships are not only essential for gaining trust within the community, they are the door by which individuals come into relationship with Christ. And he also said this day, churches that are engaged in the needs of their community, be it through educational programs or ministries like you just mentioned, that touch them first within the physical realm, are the ones experiencing growth. And what you did was you gave that woman an opportunity to experience Christ through the physical realm. I'm gonna make a sandwich and I'm gonna take it out there and I'm gonna feed people. And I'm wondering if maybe that's what we were missing all along. We tried to attract people to Jesus only through the spiritual. Now please don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting we marginalize the importance of scripture, I'm not. But again, if you look at the model of Christ. let's feed these people. Where are we going to get the food? Don't worry about that. Let's feed them. ⁓ Jesus touched them within the physical realm and then they were in a position to hear his spiritual message. And I'm wondering if we need to go back to that. I'm not wondering. I think we have to.

Dave: Well, Jim, and I think you bring up a very good point there. It's not either just about sandwiches and coffee after church, but it is things like grief share, celebrate recovery, homeless ministries, going into the food banks and serving there, going out into the community and doing whatever we can to minister to the people. Because Jesus came not just for the hungry, but for the hurting.

James Book: Right. Yes. And let's face it, all hurting and hungry. So Dave, you just shared this illustration and a little shout out to Ryan. We got one of our churches that are really kind of plugged into the Mission 120, Ryan Williams and he shared with you and I something that their church is doing. I mean, it's almost so practical. It's like, it's almost too simple, but yet I really believe.

Dave: Yes.

James Book: They're gonna make an impact. You wanna share with our listeners what he's doing.

Dave: Yeah, Ryan Williams at the Congregation of Christ in Virginia, he sent us a message that I think it's this Friday or last Friday, they all put on t-shirts with the church name on it and they just met up at a local ice cream stand to rub shoulders with people in their community. And it just opened the door for new connections with those people and they began conversations with them. They weren't overt. They didn't go in in a rude way. They just stood in line to get ice cream. And if they were standing next to somebody, they had sayings on their shirt. In fact, I think one of the sayings he said was on one of the shirts, thrive. I like that one. ⁓ But those kinds of things just bring up conversation ⁓ and the opportunity to talk to people that maybe wouldn't normally, you wouldn't have that chance to start a spiritual conversation with.

James Book: That's true. Right, and I'm not suggesting every church now has to go locate an ice cream store. Although I will tell you this story, because I sent it to Ryan. We have an ice cream store right across the street from our church. And we thought, well, wouldn't it be great if we could get that guy to commit to Christ? Well, we ended up baptizing him. He and his wife now took over our Fostering Our Future program. But he's been a dear friend of the church. But it's so funny that ice cream store owners are eligible for salvation too. So Ryan, I...

Dave: Yeah.

James Book: I applaud you. You know, we got one church.

Dave: So let me, Jim, let me tell you this quick story. Because we were in Kissimmee a few years ago for the CRA Bible Conference. We went across the street to that ice cream shop and we were just talking to the guy behind the counter. He said, what are you here for? He well, we're at a Bible Conference across the street at the church. And I think it was Dean Jackson, one of our good friends. He said, do you go to church there? He said, no, but they're working on me.

James Book: Sure. Well, we, we, we worked on even worked. mean, it took him forever, but he finally made this and that guy is so rooted. ⁓ so Dave, we have another church. were listening to the podcast a couple of weeks ago and, ⁓ the, I guess race just brought up this idea of, look, ⁓ take these old Emma's Eminem containers, but quarters in them and go to the laundry mat, ⁓ and, pay for someone's laundry to be done. Well, you got a captive audience cause you can't go anywhere. And so, ⁓

Dave: You did it. I love it. I love it.

James Book: Matt Coughlin, I think he won the game ball a couple weeks ago. They literally that next week they filled their containers. So I saw him at the Tri-State Revival. said, hey, he goes, Jim, we're getting ready. got two or three ladies. It's their passion is to do this. And they've already done a DNA study of their city, a high volume of single moms, okay, who can't afford their own washer and dryer. Guess where they're going to be. But guess where the church is going to be. And he said, you know, we're just going to have these ladies engage in conversation. at captive audience again, they can't go anywhere. And it's like, okay, now again, is that fit for everybody? Is that the magic bullet? No, but what it does say is we're gonna start doing something because I like their way of doing it better than my way of not doing it. Okay, so let's applaud.

Dave: And I think that's an interesting point there you brought up that these two ladies have passion for that. And they're given an opportunity and I would contend this. My guess is the majority of people in a laundromat are women. And it might be creepy if you're a dude hanging out with him. Or maybe this is a great way for women to build these relationships.

James Book: Exactly. correct. ⁓ I totally agree and you might be shooting yourself. Absolutely. And man, I'm telling you, ⁓ you've got three or four kids running in the laundromat, they're bored out of their head, and you start talking about your church, and we have a great children's program, and I bet you don't have a church home, well you do now, and I would love for us to introduce you to other women, and your kids to other children. Let me ask you question, how can that go wrong? How can that go wrong? ⁓ I don't know, I don't think it can. I'm not saying everybody's gonna be there the next Sunday. I guarantee you, again, it's the seed sown. Not all of it's gonna come up, but there was a bunch of seed that produced 160 and 30 fold. Let's, don't forget, not every seed comes up, but eventually some do, okay?

Dave: You know, Jim, as we've talked about this, think the one thing that we should ⁓ keep in mind is that underpinning all of this outreach in the community, our relationships at work, people that we know who are outside of Christ, we're trying to draw them into the Lord's church and help them understand the gospel. All of that conversation, the underpinning is everybody has a soul, needs Jesus. Nobody is our enemy. ⁓ They're being pulled away by the

James Book: Right.

Dave: evil forces of this world by the devil, and we're on a rescue mission. And if the church had the attitude that we are on a mission to change not just our community's DNA, we're in this to change people's eternal state. That gives us passion, that gives us drive and a focus that we're doing something more than just making people feel good. We want people to hear the gospel through all of this.

James Book: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Joe Ellis in his book, said the church is God's enterprise in the world. ⁓ God's enterprise in world is church. ⁓ you know, remember Jesus didn't to laundry mats and ice cream stores just to buddy up with people. He became friends with sinners so he could transform their lives. And that's what we're asking church to do. Look, we're not asking you to do all this because your people don't have anything to do. Everybody's bored, everybody's busy, but we just have, here's the deal, we just gotta make evangelism a priority again in our weekly conversations with people. And I know we pray, God open up a door, open up a window. And I think sometimes God's like, I've opened 400 windows this week and you didn't go through any of them. I think we'd be surprised if we start sharing our faith, how often we can do it and how actually easy it is and how many times we could have done it over the past, ⁓ But we have to be conscious about it. Like you said, Dave, we just have to be uncomfortable with people not knowing Jesus again. It's got to burden us. The whole church, not just the preacher or the elders. Everybody's got to be burdened by lost souls.

Dave: And the beautiful thing is we have an incredible message of unity with the restoration movement. We're not devising ⁓ systems and ways to get people to heaven. We have the Bible. We have the core of truth that we can present to people and a clear pathway to salvation.

James Book: Yes. Absolutely. well now all we gotta do is share it and we got the material. We got the Holy Spirit to aid us. Now we just got to share it and find a way that works for you. Find an avenue that you can do that you can end in start. And again, if we can get everybody focusing on ⁓ the faith, I'm telling you, won't take long before those empty chairs and those empty pews will be full. They will. It happened in the first century. It happened in the restoration movement. As we started, were the fastest growing. group, religious group in America. And I think we can do that again. And I tell you what, Dave, I love hearing these reports from churches. I got a text from a church yesterday, last night, as I was pulling up to hotels, like, you long days, like, I want you to know, we had our fourth week in a row where we averaged 47. Now this little farm church, 47 for big churches, like, ⁓ my goodness, if we had 47 Sunday, we would, you know, we would jumped off a cliff. But when you're a church, it's averaging 25 and 30 for the last 30 years, and you've been able to average 47, that's a major milestone. And so, and he wants to work on 50 and then 60. But it starts with a spark, and that spark eventually leads to a bonfire, and a bonfire can lead to a forest fire. So let's start off small, but let's don't think small.